Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
|
“Just because it’s real doesn’t mean it’s true.”
It would never be real if it wasn't true ......
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 04:40pm PT
|
YEAH KANT was the MAN ((but I kinda like 'em on women, moreN better))((( doh!)))
and this is 3rd yr I can tell 'cuase thats when I wanted to climb more than graduate
At that same time the long strange trip was not over the hill story ees to come and gone
does any one follow ...... when walking is such a bitch...even an Illustrious,Herculean , can and does ..........fart .......... flame on... ala not to close to the gas eLmik mikeL
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
|
The sunglasses are for when Zeus sends down a bolt of lightning to your scepter, right?
Cool
;>)
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2014 - 12:03am PT
|
Still working on the fine points. That wand is hard to handle.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2014 - 12:20am PT
|
The blond in the crystal ball looks vaguely familiar. Don't get the "wand" too close to her.
A forensic close-up of the computer screen strongly reveals yet another on-going plagiarism.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
|
This jolly little thread needs a gentle bump . . .
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
|
Thanks, Jgill!!! I missed these responses and comments.
I'm laughing my a** off! So many funny comments.
And, yeah, Jan . . . that was hilarious.
Way to go, Largo.
(May the force be with you all.)
|
|
cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
|
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
|
Illusion means different things to different people. For a physicalist, an illusion is often anything that is not material. To a dreamer, visualizing themselves climbing El Cap might be an illusion, but it might get them up there eventually so that illusion is a very active force in his/her world.
As with a lot of things that escape our instuments, the aim is not to get a btter hold of them so we can get to measuring, but to learn how to use these slippery "illusions" to our own advantage, and to let go of the ones that don not pan out for us. This is more art than science, in many respcts, so those insisting on a more cut and dry, black and white approach will always cry foul. But trying to reduce a protocol to living to a list of credos or formula or an approved data stream will lead nowhere. Ethics has already wrestled this down in large part.
JL
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
|
re: on the "illusion" of consciousness
While Harris accepts the "illusion" of self, he rejects the "illusion" of consciousness.
In the main text...
It is surely a sign of intellectual progress that a discussion of consciousness need no longer begin with a debate about its existence. To say that consciousness may only seem to exist, from the inside, is to admit its existence in full—for if things seem any way at all, that is consciousness. Even if I happen to be a brain in a vat at this moment—and all my memories are false, and all my perceptions are of a world that does not exist—the fact that I am having an experience is indisputable (to me, at least). This is all that is required for me (or any other sentient being) to fully establish the reality of consciousness. Consciousness is the one thing in this universe that cannot be an illusion.
And back in the book endnotes...
Again, I should say that some philosophers, such as Daniel Dennett and Paul Churchland, just don’t buy this. But I do not understand why. My not seeing how consciousness can possibly be an illusion entails my not understanding how they (or anyone else) can think that it might be one. I agree that we may be profoundly mistaken about consciousness—about how it arises, about its connection to the brain, about precisely what we are conscious of and when. But this is not the same as saying that consciousness itself may be illusory. The state of being completely confused about the nature of consciousness is itself a demonstration of consciousness.
In Waking Up...
illusion - 54 hits
consciousness - 258 hits
spirituality - 36 hits
introspection - 7 hits
meditation - 84 hits
introspective - 0 hits
subjective - 14 hits
subjective experience - 3 hits
mental life - 1 hit (!)
modern spirituality - 0 hits
scientific spirituality - 0 hits
secular spirituality - 0 hits
subjective spirituality - 0 hits
introspective spirituality - 0 hits
Subtitle: "Spirituality without Religion"
Just as a person’s physical body and abilities can be refined — Olympic athletes are not normal — one’s mental life can deepen and expand on the basis of talent and training. - Sam Harris, Waking Up
discursive - 4 hits
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
|
Fruity, you really need to do what Harris did and get your ass into some retreats so you have some hard core experiential data to draw from. You've primed the pump to no end. Time to let it rip.
JL
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
|
Just as a person’s physical body and abilities can be refined — Olympic athletes are not normal — one’s mental life can deepen and expand on the basis of talent and training
Shocking revelation
Ground Control to Major Tom . . .
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 06:26pm PT
|
Oh you're such a smartypants.
The quote was to show the ONE usage in the whole book of the term "mental life."
A prominent term in my own working vocabulary (is all).
Ground Control to Major Tom . . .
Got that right, though. ;)
Further, for context, Harris does use this point to make an additional salient one:
This is nearly self-evident, but it remains a controversial point. No one hesitates to admit the role of talent and training in the context of physical and intellectual pursuits; I have never met another person who denied that some of us are stronger, more athletic, or more learned than others. But many people find it difficult to acknowledge that a continuum of moral and spiritual wisdom exists or that there might be better and worse ways to traverse it.
So there it is. In fullness.
...and who's the Major Tom here? :)
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
|
Illusion Dweller, 10B 5 stars
. But trying to reduce a protocol to living to a list of credos or formula or an approved data stream will lead nowhere.
Funny to me, i've witnessed prolly a dozen 5.11 climbers hang on this rte.
last year i did it for the 20th time on my 50th bday. one of the few rtes i,ll repeat. Ofcourse while i'm there i gotta do FistaCuffs!
The science of numbers doesn't mean alot toward the art of climbing. Both of those still feel like 5.9 to me.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
|
Time to let it rip.
Sure, LGo, I'd be happy to oblige. As soon as you're (reasonably) clear on the return on investment. So far, as far as I'm concerned, you haven't made the case. Not to me. But don't feel too bad, Harris, despite his excellent writing and interesting ancillary ideas (for the most part) didn't really either. That being at least my first impression regards Waking Up.
I for one happen to like my discursive thinking, by the way, just as is; a rare bird perhaps. More than anything else it IS to be credited for my output - for my creativity, productivity and can-do attitude - I think. Also, in different terms, for my problem solving at work, in life, in play, and in general. So I am grateful many times over for it. Further, beyond that, I cherish my "mental life" - I like it. I don't really feel any impetus to change anything at this point. Or to dig any wider or deeper regarding its "operating" aspects. Everything in moderation they say. Applies to introspection as well, I think, and Zeus, Artemis and Apollo know I've done plenty of it already. Maybe down the road though, as I AM getting older, as I AM changing, etc. So maybe later, needs will change, we'll see.
Regarding meditation, here was an interesting statement from the book...
We wouldn’t attempt to meditate, or engage in any other contemplative practice, if we didn’t feel that something about our experience needed to be improved. -Harris
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
|
But many people find it difficult to acknowledge that a continuum of moral and spiritual wisdom exists or that there might be better and worse ways to traverse it.
i think that's a bit chauvinistic. Everyone on this thread, and almost in the entire world, and especially Harris knows what the bible already said thousands of years ago. You can't escape the meanings, only the language.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
|
So I am grateful many times over for it.
Grateful to who? Or in ur case, to what? Maybe the star that blew up and provided you with a body? Or maybe the can do attitude provided by cause and effect?
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
|
Humankind will land on a comet in November. The 'Rosetta' team just chose a landing site.
That's all I'm sayin'
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 24, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
|
That's the can-do spirit. Glad to hear it!
Just watch out for those sunrises and the outgassings, they can be real treacherous, lol!
And since it won't be manned either, no worries about anyone forgetting to put down their sunguard visor and then going blind!
.....
Just for you, blu...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTF_tTKRdb0
But what a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
There's nothing at all
But what a fool believes he sees...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!