What is "Mind?"

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 24, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Hope our legs don't break.............walking on the moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbv-LcdLY-Y

more 80's art.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 24, 2014 - 09:16pm PT
Of course this one resonated with me...

We have long known that how things seem in the world can be misleading, and this is no less true of the mind itself. And yet many people have found that through sustained introspection, how things seem can be brought into closer register with how they are.

Introspection. (cf: meditation)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Fruity, no one is going to make a discursive case on why you should quite your mind and find out what is going on. Your discursive mind will do what yours is doing - come up with reasons to never pull it to the curb. That's the discursive trance. You are under it's spell by virtue of believing you are not.

Invest a single day in a retreat. That's a paltry gift to yourself, but you can find out if you have any affinity for the work. It's not for everyone.

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:12pm PT

Researcher shows that black holes do not exist
Sep 24, 2014 by Thania Benios


Black holes have long captured the public imagination and been the subject of popular culture, from Star Trek to Hollywood. They are the ultimate unknown – the blackest and most dense objects in the universe that do not even let light escape. And as if they weren't bizarre enough to begin with, now add this to the mix: they don't exist.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-black-holes.html#jCp

By merging two seemingly conflicting theories, Laura Mersini-Houghton, a physics professor at UNC-Chapel Hill in the College of Arts and Sciences, has proven, mathematically, that black holes can never come into being in the first place. The work not only forces scientists to reimagine the fabric of space-time, but also rethink the origins of the universe.

"I'm still not over the shock," said Mersini-Houghton. "We've been studying this problem for a more than 50 years and this solution gives us a lot to think about."

For decades, black holes were thought to form when a massive star collapses under its own gravity to a single point in space – imagine the Earth being squished into a ball the size of a peanut – called a singularity. So the story went, an invisible membrane known as the event horizon surrounds the singularity and crossing this horizon means that you could never cross back. It's the point where a black hole's gravitational pull is so strong that nothing can escape it.

The reason black holes are so bizarre is that it pits two fundamental theories of the universe against each other. Einstein's theory of gravity predicts the formation of black holes but a fundamental law of quantum theory states that no information from the universe can ever disappear. Efforts to combine these two theories lead to mathematical nonsense, and became known as the information loss paradox.

In 1974, Stephen Hawking used quantum mechanics to show that black holes emit radiation. Since then, scientists have detected fingerprints in the cosmos that are consistent with this radiation, identifying an ever-increasing list of the universe's black holes.

But now Mersini-Houghton describes an entirely new scenario. She and Hawking both agree that as a star collapses under its own gravity, it produces Hawking radiation. However, in her new work, Mersini-Houghton shows that by giving off this radiation, the star also sheds mass. So much so that as it shrinks it no longer has the density to become a black hole.

Before a black hole can form, the dying star swells one last time and then explodes. A singularity never forms and neither does an event horizon. The take home message of her work is clear: there is no such thing as a black hole.

The paper, which was recently submitted to ArXiv, an online repository of physics papers that is not peer-reviewed, offers exact numerical solutions to this problem and was done in collaboration with Harald Peiffer, an expert on numerical relativity at the University of Toronto. An earlier paper, by Mersini-Houghton, originally submitted to ArXiv in June, was published in the journal Physics Letters B, and offers approximate solutions to the problem.

Experimental evidence may one day provide physical proof as to whether or not black holes exist in the universe. But for now, Mersini-Houghton says the mathematics are conclusive.

Many physicists and astronomers believe that our universe originated from a singularity that began expanding with the Big Bang. However, if singularities do not exist, then physicists have to rethink their ideas of the Big Bang and whether it ever happened.

"Physicists have been trying to merge these two theories – Einstein's theory of gravity and quantum mechanics – for decades, but this scenario brings these two theories together, into harmony," said Mersini-Houghton. "And that's a big deal."


Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-black-holes.html#jCp
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Inconveniently, those pesky multi-million solar mass thingies at the center of most spiral galaxies, including ours, remain, however impossible their existence may be.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:41pm PT
http://www.nature.com/news/stephen-hawking-there-are-no-black-holes-1.14583

Most physicists foolhardy enough to write a paper claiming that “there are no black holes” — at least not in the sense we usually imagine — would probably be dismissed as cranks. But when the call to redefine these cosmic crunchers comes from Stephen Hawking, it’s worth taking notice. In a paper posted online, the physicist, based at the University of Cambridge, UK, and one of the creators of modern black-hole theory, does away with the notion of an event horizon, the invisible boundary thought to shroud every black hole, beyond which nothing, not even light, can escape.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 25, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/stephen-hawkings-blunder-on-black-holes-shows-danger-of-listening-to-scientists-says-bachmann

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Dr. Stephen Hawking’s recent statement that the black holes he famously described do not actually exist underscores “the danger inherent in listening to scientists,” Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minnesota) said today.

Rep. Bachmann unleashed a blistering attack on Dr. Hawking, who earlier referred to his mistake on black holes as his “biggest blunder.”

“Actually, Dr. Hawking, our biggest blunder as a society was ever listening to people like you,” said Rep. Bachmann. “If black holes don’t exist, then other things you scientists have been trying to foist on us probably don’t either, like climate change and evolution.”

Rep. Bachmann added that all the students who were forced to learn about black holes in college should now sue Dr. Hawking for a full refund. “Fortunately for me, I did not take any science classes in college,” she said.

Bachmann’s anti-Hawking comments seemed to be gaining traction on Capitol Hill, as seen from the statement by Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas), Chairman of the House Science Committee, who said, “Going forward, members of the House Science Committee will do our best to avoid listening to scientists.”
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
When I read A Brief History of Time I interpreted an event horizon to be a barrier to observation of events as they take place, not a barrier to all phenomenon that might result. Maybe I got that wrong?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Sep 25, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
Thanks for the posts, Tom. Hadn't heard about the black hole controversy.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 25, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
if a photon cant escape from inside an event horizon, nothing can.

hawking radiation isnt escaping particles from inside an event horizon, its transformation of black holes gravitational energy into particles spontaneously created and radiated near the event horizon. It also has yet to be confirmed experimentally.

the postings seem to be mislabeled - the new theory seems to posit that singularities dont exist, and that black holes can lose mass by some mechanism other than hawking radiation
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 25, 2014 - 06:21pm PT
Hawking also came out today saying "there is no God".



Stephen Hawking Says 'There Is No God,' Confirms He's An Atheist

WRONG again!


i wonder if Bachmann has ever been wrong?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 25, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
The power of the Holy Spirit? The power of no-thing?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWpOgCONplI#t=37

I know. I gotta do the work.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 25, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
http://www.nature.com/news/simulations-back-up-theory-that-universe-is-a-hologram-1.14328

Nature | News

Simulations back up theory that Universe is a hologram

A ten-dimensional theory of gravity makes the same predictions as standard quantum physics in fewer dimensions.

A team of physicists has provided some of the clearest evidence yet that our Universe could be just one big projection.

In 1997, theoretical physicist Juan Maldacena proposed1 that an audacious model of the Universe in which gravity arises from infinitesimally thin, vibrating strings could be reinterpreted in terms of well-established physics. The mathematically intricate world of strings, which exist in nine dimensions of space plus one of time, would be merely a hologram: the real action would play out in a simpler, flatter cosmos where there is no gravity.

Maldacena's idea thrilled physicists because it offered a way to put the popular but still unproven theory of strings on solid footing — and because it solved apparent inconsistencies between quantum physics and Einstein's theory of gravity. It provided physicists with a mathematical Rosetta stone, a 'duality', that allowed them to translate back and forth between the two languages, and solve problems in one model that seemed intractable in the other and vice versa (see 'Collaborative physics: String theory finds a bench mate'). But although the validity of Maldacena's ideas has pretty much been taken for granted ever since, a rigorous proof has been elusive.

In two papers posted on the arXiv repository, Yoshifumi Hyakutake of Ibaraki University in Japan and his colleagues now provide, if not an actual proof, at least compelling evidence that Maldacena’s conjecture is true.

In one paper2, Hyakutake computes the internal energy of a black hole, the position of its event horizon (the boundary between the black hole and the rest of the Universe), its entropy and other properties based on the predictions of string theory as well as the effects of so-called virtual particles that continuously pop into and out of existence (see 'Astrophysics: Fire in the Hole!'). In the other3, he and his collaborators calculate the internal energy of the corresponding lower-dimensional cosmos with no gravity. The two computer calculations match.

“It seems to be a correct computation,” says Maldacena, who is now at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey and who did not contribute to the team's work.

Regime change

The findings “are an interesting way to test many ideas in quantum gravity and string theory”, Maldacena adds. The two papers, he notes, are the culmination of a series of articles contributed by the Japanese team over the past few years. “The whole sequence of papers is very nice because it tests the dual [nature of the universes] in regimes where there are no analytic tests.”

“They have numerically confirmed, perhaps for the first time, something we were fairly sure had to be true, but was still a conjecture — namely that the thermodynamics of certain black holes can be reproduced from a lower-dimensional universe,” says Leonard Susskind, a theoretical physicist at Stanford University in California who was among the first theoreticians to explore the idea of holographic universes.

Neither of the model universes explored by the Japanese team resembles our own, Maldacena notes. The cosmos with a black hole has ten dimensions, with eight of them forming an eight-dimensional sphere. The lower-dimensional, gravity-free one has but a single dimension, and its menagerie of quantum particles resembles a group of idealized springs, or harmonic oscillators, attached to one another.

Nevertheless, says Maldacena, the numerical proof that these two seemingly disparate worlds are actually identical gives hope that the gravitational properties of our Universe can one day be explained by a simpler cosmos purely in terms of quantum theory.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 2, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
JL posted an excellent question on the other thread about what we mean when we say we "understand" something. I made a few comments there, but this is a better place to discuss "understanding.":

In mathematics one "understands" the proof of a theorem for instance if one can verify each step in a logical progression, A implies B, B implies C, not B implies not A, etc. and can then put it all together into a coherent argument in one's mind, according to standards that are shared in the mathematical community. Admittedly, this begs the question and probably cannot be simplified beyond a certain point, although Tvash can probably do a better job!

The word "understand" is a bit difficult to pin down, although most of us recognize it when we study an idea or process (like pornography - we know it when we see it). To some extent we can test our understanding of a concept by creating an example or counterexample. And someone else can get a feeling of whether or not we understand it if we are required to explain it in our own words.

These are just opening thoughts about "understanding" - some of you can probably do a better job.
WBraun

climber
Oct 2, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
It's unanimous.

The gross materialists can't find their minds ......
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 2, 2014 - 06:45pm PT
"understanding" in physics usually means you can calculate the outcome of an experiment or observation, using a logical deduction based on a physical theory.

For instance:

energy is conserved

if I bang one proton into another, each with a known kinetic energy, the sum of the energy of all the particles produced in the reaction should equal the initial energy

I then to the experiment and confirm the result.

If I the energy before and after are not equal, then either I've missed something in my detector, or I've missed something in my physical description of the reaction (for instance, I might not have detected all of the particles because some new particle was created and not detected).


I "understand" that energy is conserved in the universe, largely by empirical observation later by the theoretical necessity (by Noether's theorem, the conservation of energy is related to the time-reversal symmetry of our physical models).

MH2

climber
Oct 2, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
Years ago I had a physiology prof who told our class what it meant to him to understand something. He said that if he observed some phenomenon or related phenomena often enough for long enough he came to feel he understood it. For him, understanding was at its most basic simply familiarity with how a system behaved. Surely understanding can be refined beyond that level.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Oct 2, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
my dog "Emma" understands what to do when i say "Rollover".

Understanding is a Gift!
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Oct 2, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
From Wikipedia:

Gregory Chaitin, a noted computer scientist, propounds a view that comprehension is a kind of data compression.[2] In his essay "The Limits of Reason", he argues that understanding something means being able to figure out a simple set of rules that explains it. For example, we understand why day and night exist because we have a simple model—the rotation of the earth—that explains a tremendous amount of data—changes in brightness, temperature, and atmospheric composition of the earth. We have compressed a large amount of information by using a simple model that predicts it. Similarly, we understand the number 0.33333... by thinking of it as one-third. The first way of representing the number requires an infinite amount of memory; but the second way can produce all the data of the first representation, but uses much less information. Chaitin argues that comprehension is this ability to compress data.
jstan

climber
Oct 2, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
I seriously doubt we can put a fence around the word "understanding" that contains all uses made of it. I'll make one comment by going back to fundamentals.

Survival has been a very important goal for us and any ability we have for predicting what happens in the world around us tends to support that goal. In at least some of the word's usages you can say that any time an event is similar to our past experience or if we can otherwise predict what will happen, we at least feel as though we understand. Newton's apple for example.

Mind you other usages don't seem to have so simple a structure. There are degrees of understanding. You can use Maxwell's equations and a wave model to understand what light will do. But alternatively if you do much more difficult calculations using a particle model you have a way to predict a greater variety of physical processes. It was only in the late forties that a way was found to do these calculations. In the fields where they are applicable, both give acceptable calculations. But the temptation to say the particle model gives us a "better understanding" is present.

Any time a situation is encountered with which we seem unable to deal, it can be very useful to examine carefully how we are using words. Language is a great tool, but not one free of traps. It has been pointed out that the word "why" has such a trap because the word has embedded in it assumed intention. Until things get straightened out it makes things clearer to use the word "how".
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