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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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I saw Sam in an interview with Dawkins and a couple other brainiacs and one made the point that it is necessary to separate the numinous from the supernatural. My understanding is that the so-called supernatural is real, but is is not "super" or beyond nature at all, but rather it operates in the experiential world. I think that people have a problem with the idea that the supernatural or spiritual exists outside of nature - though most of them have no problem subscribing to the idea that the belief that the objective operates outside of sentience, that you can parse reality apart like that, while always using sentience to vouchsafe the results or to 'know" as much. One wonders that if we can imagine things as separate, does that make it so, or if reductionistic thinking is simply a matter of selective focus.
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 21, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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wouldn't you not say . . . not-conscious processes constitute a "wisdom of the ancients?" (MikeL)
"wouldn't you not say . . ." ???
Yes, I would say "not"
Stretching the definition of wisdom a bit to include non-consciousness processes: Wisdom (sophia) is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight, with good intentions (Wiki)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 21, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
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Wisdom (sophia) is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight, with good intentions (Wiki)
In the evolution of the brain, mind. Surely we've shown a Progression. As opposed to Diegression. Can't we call this "better response" to an effect, (as in cause and affect) Wisdom? Stored and Proven within our DNA..
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 21, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
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Can't we call this "better response" to an effect, (as in cause and affect) Wisdom?
Mike has said all along that these are only words. So call it what you wish. Others might disagree.
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MH2
climber
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Sep 21, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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Everyone has their experiences, which is what they are attempting to report.
Wisdom of MikeL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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Only dead men don't know what "Mind" is .....
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Sep 21, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
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unlock the mind and soul. You can do it yourself, and see for yourself. You dont need to discuss it on the internet. Objective science is simply our collective delusion. Unlock your subjective experience. Do it the quick old fashion bitch slap kind of way with a hefty dose of psychedelics in the proper setting....alone, in silent darkness. Then you tell me what your mind can do, and where your soul is located.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 21, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
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Jgill: Mike has said all along that these are only words. So call it what you wish. Others might disagree.
That's a fair criticism. I did not mean for it to be understood quite that way. As before, words and labels are intrinsically problematical. This post provides me an opportunity to say something different.
I'm not saying that there isn't *something* there. I'm saying that the words and labels tend to make us think that we can (or have) nailed the *something* down.
Hey, thanks for noting my double negative. I was obviously confused in my attempt to say something significant.
I have a colleague staying with me here for the week. In talking about research possibilities, she's said: "Mike I understand that subjectivity is important in [our field], but it must be operationalized to get some papers published."
I'm thinking: "HA! Just how in the hell am I going to do that?"
Dead end!? (Sounds like a job for "Mr. Creative Man.")
What a weird world I live in. Who do I put a complaint into around this place?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2014 - 09:55pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Sep 22, 2014 - 07:41am PT
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No, no. Crystals are as real as it comes. I'm not too sure about God but I believe in crystals.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 22, 2014 - 07:57am PT
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An interesting interview with a tibetan teacher about breath and chakras
The first thing the mundane gross materialists lab coats will do is babble for years of how to measure and who did what, where and when.
Meanwhile on the battlefield of their own consciousness they lose the fight of their own self awareness and continue on their unconscious selves .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 22, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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Interesting interview of Tsoknyi Rinpoche. It certainly rings true to my experience. Meanwhile, here's another quote from him,which MikeL will particularly appreciate.
Rinpoche’s mantra: “Just because it’s real doesn’t mean it’s true.”
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MH2
climber
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Sep 22, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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One thing I took away from my few years doing research for a medical respiratory white lab coat was an appreciation for the fundamental subtle complex magnificence of what happens during the seemingly simple act of breathing.
edit:
Knowing a little about the control and mechanics of breathing in no way subtracts from its beauty. The opposite.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 22, 2014 - 10:58am PT
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I like this one better:
"Don't believe everything you think"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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Another good one is, "Feelings are not facts."
For my own process, when I can recognize that content is not agency, I find a kind of freedom from the rough spots.
J:
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 22, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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I found this article really interesting because for many years my meditation was physically and mentally challenging , especially doing long retreats where there is a lot of pain in the body and tiredness. After many years I started to feel some chi energy/associated with the breath in my lower abdomin and the sitting become significantly easier and the tiredness and much of the pain went away. As the chi enegry increased it was physically and mentally ecstatic to sit. In zen they don't put much emphasis on yoga type breathing as in guided techniques. Althought they do put emphasis on good posture which probably leads to correct breathing.
Breath and chi and chakras are really emphasized in Tai chi, Gigong and tibetan style. I think his idea/concept of the "enlighten body" has merit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 22, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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Another good one is, "Feelings are mechanistic output."
Feelings together with thoughts help give us the control we need, as evolved living things, to stay alive in a rough and tumble world.
Don't take em for granted; when they malfunction, things can go haywire very fast. So appreciate them, along with their fidelity, at every opportunity. My two cents.
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MH2
climber
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Sep 22, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
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Much merit, PSP also PP. Most climbers in a do-it-or-else situation will benefit from a few slow deep breaths. A bolt or good gear placement also help a lot.
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