What is "Mind?"

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 6, 2014 - 10:58am PT

"These findings provide evidence that the amygdala's processing of social cues in the absence of awareness may be more extensive than previously understood," observes Freeman. "The amygdala is able to assess how trustworthy another person's face appears without it being consciously perceived."

So were not only consciously aware of being on the look out for "trustworthyness", our brains are on guard unconsciously against deceit without our attention..

Very interesting!
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 6, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Most the time 'awareness' tracks 'attention' pretty closely, but not always.

Most of what we do, we do unconsciously. Consider the centipede....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 11:51am PT
That anti-deceit mechanism can be very useful when considering the truthfulness of religious doctrine, too.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 6, 2014 - 11:56am PT

Attention is a data-handling method used by neurons. It isn’t a substance and it doesn’t flow

One way to think about the relationship between brain and consciousness is to break it down into two mysteries. I call them Arrow A and Arrow B. Arrow A is the mysterious route from neurons to consciousness. If I am looking at a blue sky, my brain doesn’t merely register blue as if I were a wavelength detector from Radio Shack. I am aware of the blue. Did my neurons create that feeling?

Arrow B is the mysterious route from consciousness back to the neurons. Arrow B attracts much less scholarly attention than Arrow A, but it is just as important. The most basic, measurable, quantifiable truth about consciousness is simply this: we humans can say that we have it. We can conclude that we have it, couch that conclusion into language and then report it to someone else. Speech is controlled by muscles, which are controlled by neurons. Whatever consciousness is, it must have a specific, physical effect on neurons, or else we wouldn’t be able to communicate anything about it. Consciousness cannot be what is sometimes called an epiphenomenon — a floating side-product with no physical consequences — or else I wouldn’t have been able to write this article about it.

If attention can be said it has no substance. Why couldn't consciousness be without substance?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
"Why couldn't consciousness be without substance?"

LOL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Aug 6, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
Neither the mind nor its consciousness or awareness can exist without substance. The only thing that can change my mind (hehe) on this is proof, incontrovertible proof, that awareness is out there all on its own... or a mind without a body, some cloud-born consciousness I dunno (oops, clouds are physical oh darn it). SHOW ME THE MONEY.

The answer is always the same - no proof, you have to accept it on faith. Because you see our instruments are too feeble to detect such things...



DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
I know there's a stapler in my head.

Actually - that's a real example from Graziano's book, although the patient firmly believed it was a squirrel instead.

Squirrel, stapler, void - all just various instantiations of the same problem. Anything can 'feel real', but it's all just a model made of neurons.
FortMentäl

Social climber
Albuquerque, NM
Aug 6, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
I know there's a stapler in my head.

You don't always know that. In fact, you CAN'T always know that. If there's a usefulness to meditation at all, it's in being able to dredge such things out of the subconscious for proper access. Some say dreaming does a similar thing.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
"Some say...dreaming does a similar thing."

I say...I don't really care,
cuz my week
beats your year.
MH2

climber
Aug 6, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
If there's a usefulness to meditation at all,


Waving the red flag at the bull?

What is "stapler?"
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 6, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
What is "stapler?"

I have it on good authority that over a thousand years ago Tibetan monks built crude staplers out of twigs and branches, ignorant of the utilitarian aspects of their creations. They then meditated on these objects until it was possible for them to create tulpas of them. When that was accomplished they moved on to prostitutes . . .
MH2

climber
Aug 6, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
I have it on better authority that your good authority is okay authority.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 6, 2014 - 07:28pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Hey Werner
Did you see the "ring" thread? It reminded me of you.
Remember back around 95' you found me distraught in the meadow? I had jus got booted off Aurora by AdamWainwright and John Roseckii cause Brad Jarrett showed up. You cheered me up by taking me up The Gripper. You got a good laugh from the look on my face when I saw your anchor! You were a little distraught that day too, over a ring. We went to the river and then back to your cabin to hang with Mary. I was blown away by ur cabin I jus sat there and listened to your guyses every word. The next day Mary showed me how to use the adjustable Fifi and it changed my life.. She's still the favorite climber of my minds eye.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Aug 6, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
Meditating for staplers and prostitutes?

Now who's dwelling in illusion?

May all such ideas be reduced to nothingness.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 7, 2014 - 03:36am PT

I am sure they'll look so carefully that, if the particle does not exist, they won't find it either.
Debating gives most of us much more psychological satisfaction than thinking does: but it deprives us of whatever chance there is of getting closer to the truth.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 7, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
Debating gives most of us much more psychological satisfaction than thinking does: but it deprives us of whatever chance there is of getting closer to the truth.

I agree with the first part of the above but not the second, generally.

"Debating " should be understood on several levels--- not primarily the garden-variety form of the visceral, mercurial, interpersonal exchange with all sorts of risky ego dynamics in full play---or any given singular definition of what is thought of as debating

Furthermore, the implication contained in the quote above is of a philosophic "truth" that exists as a concentrated, localized, and yet ever illusive quantity that exists solely or essentially independent of particular diffuse instances; in other words, truth is projected as this rather inflexible ,a priori, and yet undefined categorical entity.
In this way ,debate, or even perhaps formalized research itself, or any attempt to get at the truth--- can be recast, or rejected ,as a form of unfortunately regrettable distraction , inherently incapable of arriving at the truth, any truth.

Which is probably true--- for the individual who has already predetermined what the truth shall or shall not consist of .( It's important to emphasize this point is not be confused with the predetermined role a debater takes in defending or advancing his side of a debate)
Such an individual seems to be always on the vigilant look-out for anything that holds the dystopian probability of "depriving" us of the truth.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 7, 2014 - 01:38pm PT

Debate - Battle Down - verbal fight
Discuss - Shake apart - the use of facts, reasoning, the best argument
Dialogue - Flow through words - inquiry to understand
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 7, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
I've learned a lot. This topic is especially interesting because every one of us is our own petri dish.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 7, 2014 - 03:07pm PT
Ward urs is a good Debate.


Debating gives most of us much more psychological satisfaction than thinking does: but it deprives us of whatever chance there is of getting closer to the truth.
Wrong!!

Compared to this one which is prolly more down the lines of an argument?
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