What is "Mind?"

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Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
You don't seem to grok the salient differences between Graziano and Jayne. The attention schema isn't an expert system that focuses attention at all. It is a model of attention, coupled with attention via a strange loop. The awareness schema can compete with all the other top down and bottom up stimuli bombarding our attention, but those signals may or may not win that competition.

Payne's is just a rehashing of the homunculus - and as such seems to suffer from the infinitely nested problem. In any case, it is really a single component system consisting solely of attention (which is dynamically focused by a system embedded within its own circuitry - the 'expert' system that Payne describes). The attention schema can weigh in, but it doesn't control attention - it describes what, within out attention, we are aware of - what we feel as reality.

Graziano cites previous work in out of body experiences - he lays no claim to it.

Graziano also goes into the specific brain structures involved in all of this - but I haven't read that part of the book yet.

You, on the other hand, haven't read enough Graziano to make even a cursory critique of his work. You apparently don't even get the basics of the theory, never mind the details.

Look, I know the uninformed, shoot from the hip thing is your style.

It's tedious. Do some homework.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:21pm PT
^^^Awareness schema?

i thought it was an Attention Schema?

maybe you had better reboot ur model?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
good catch, thanks. Typo.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Cintunes link shows the brain uses Gamma-rays in its operation.

my understanding thus far the brain's mass requires;
Water
Oxygen
Blood
Chemical Synapses
Electrical Synapses
Gamma-Rays
More?

Inorder to figure out if i'm having chicken or oriental flavored ramen.

shouldn't be THAT hard to figure out how?
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 11, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
I rather LIKE "awareness schema" over "attention schema." The former gets to the rubric of the conversations, I'd say. When one speaks of "mind" contemplatively, it seems so much more than a question of attention. Attention is a tool and a skill. Awareness isn't either.

I understand how we might be able to model the attention process, but awareness discussed similarly would constitute a categorical error IMO.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
Gamma waves:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_wave

Not gamma rays:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_ray
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Our kiddy torture trip just got postponed 3 days because the air quality from the Carlton Complex fire is so bad in Mazama. We may have to head to Canada. So far it's burned 400 sq mi. and 300 homes.

This has become a regular summer season thing in recent years.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
On the brighter side - I see morels in my future.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
They got a machine that will put your brain into the Meditative State.
No more need to practice!!

from the above link:
Experiments on Tibetan Buddhist monks have shown a correlation between transcendental mental states and gamma waves.[14][15] A suggested explanation is based on the fact that the gamma is intrinsically localized. Neuroscientist Sean O'Nuallain suggests that this very existence of synchronized gamma indicates that something akin to a singularity - or, to be more prosaic, a conscious experience - is occurring.[14] This work adduces experimental and simulated data to show that what meditation masters have in common is the ability to put the brain into a state in which it is maximally sensitive.

As hinted above, gamma waves have been observed in Tibetan Buddhist monks. A 2004 study took eight long-term Tibetan Buddhist practitioners of meditation and, using electrodes, monitored the patterns of electrical activity produced by their brains as they meditated. The researchers compared the brain activity of the monks to a group of novice meditators (the study had these subjects meditate an hour a day for one week prior to empirical observation). In a normal meditative state, both groups were shown to have similar brain activity. However, when the monks were told to generate an objective feeling of compassion during meditation, their brain activity began to fire in a rhythmic, coherent manner, suggesting neuronal structures were firing in harmony. This was observed at a frequency of 25–40 Hz, the rhythm of gamma waves. These gamma-band oscillations in the monk’s brain signals were the largest seen in humans (apart from those in states such as seizures). Conversely, these gamma-band oscillations were scant in novice meditators. Though, a number of rhythmic signals did appear to strengthen in beginner meditators with further experience in the exercise, implying that the aptitude for one to produce gamma-band rhythm is trainable.[16]

Such evidence and research in gamma-band oscillations may explain the heightened sense of consciousness, bliss, and intellectual acuity subsequent to meditation. Notably, meditation is known to have a number of health benefits: stress reduction, mood elevation, and increased life expectancy of the mind and its cognitive functions. The current Dalai Lama meditates for four hours each morning, and he says that it is hard work. He elaborates that if neuroscience can construct a way in which he can reap the psychological and biological rewards of meditation without going through the practice each morning, he would be apt to adopt the innovation.[17] The aforementioned study in which gamma states were induced in mice may be a step in this direction.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
3D brain tissue, grown in a petri dish, stays alive for up to two months:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140811151119.htm

The end is nigh.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
R.I.P. Robin Williams......

Don't ya wish you could download his brain's memory's?

Man!! Why would a brain like that want to turn itself off????

i'll bet God's laughing a little more now
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Don't ya wish you could download his brain's memory's?


Speak for yourself!


;>\
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
One of my high school girlfriends slept with him, so, in a manner of speaking, there's some shared consciousness there.

The expert system that constructs one's attention schema is part of attention. Attention is a data handling system, not data in and of itself. It creates an output - the attention schema, which is a data set that answers the question "Am I aware of this?".

The dataset, in turns, feedbacks to attention - the data handling system, and affects its operation. This is the strange loop I referred to.





jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Hey JGill isn't "Reduction of a Multidimensional Space onto a Two-Dimensional Array" a subject of topology? (FM)

Maybe a combination of statistical data analysis and linear algebra. Probably not topology, but a topologist might disagree! Seems to be a problem of setting up a new set of axis that optimize variance.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
Donuts, donuts, donuts.

Humans = donuts.

Damn. Now I've got a hankerin for a cruller.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 11, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Speak for yourself!

i didn't mean to mean, to Replace his with mine.

One of the links above described downloading one's memorys onto a CD.

Therefor we could have a library of peoples memorys to watch on TV after they pass.

i'd love to see your's. Watching what you saw the first time you knew The Thimble would go! Phewww!! it gives me goose-bumps! moreso than reading the story.

Kid's in the future will be able to record their daily thoughts. And then revert back to them. Through-out their whole life. Just think how smart they will be..

Law would prolly become absolute. THey'de know what ur think'in at the time of the murder.

i think i see a movie in there??
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 12, 2014 - 10:13am PT
The brain parts that handle the attention schema must be identified if the theory is to be supported.

Semispatial neglect is one brain injury (typically as a result of stroke) that is being studied in this effort.

In one case, brain injury was most severe in the right STS and TPJ. This patient was not aware of his left side - vision, sound, memory. This is far from a smoking gun - but these two centers are the only one's known to be fully involved social perception, attention, and awareness - 3 functions necessary for a functioning attention schema.

"The patient was asked to close his eyes and imagine standing at one end of a familiar city square. When asked to describe the buildings in the square, he scanned the image in his mind and listed all the buildings to his right, neglecting the ones to his left. He did not notice that he had described only half the square. Th patient was then asked to imagine that he was standing on the opposite end of the square, facing the other direction. Once again, he was asked to describe the buildings, and once again he listed all the buildings to his right. This time, because he imagined facing the opposite direction, he described the opposite set of buildings and never noticed the discrepancy. He could not conceive of a left side of space. It was gone from his awareness."

MRI's reveal that such patients maintain full visual processing for both sides of space - they are just not aware that the left side of sensory world exists. They respond to left side stimuli - flinching at sudden motions, having a bad feeling after being shown a burning house with right eye covered - but are not consciously aware of the stimuli at all.
MH2

climber
Aug 12, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
I remember in grad school in a class with the medicine students being told of a case where a man would only shave half his face. I think he neglected an entire half of his body. My, "Well, that's weird," is another person's, "This is telling us something. Let's find out what."
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 12, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Here are some interesting experiments for fun and profit. You'll be the life of the party:

Hold a large piece of cardboard with two different colored marks on each side vertically against your nose to its splits your vision. If you focus on one side, the other side eventually disappears. You're still visually processing the 'hidden' side - right up to and just short of your awareness.

Get a rubber hand. Lay your forearm on a table and cover it with cardboard. stick the rubber hand at a funky angle so it looks like part of your arm, albeit crooked.

Have two people stroke your real hand and the rubber hand in the same manner (timing, direction, etc).

Your body map will switch to the rubber hand.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 12, 2014 - 05:17pm PT
The differences between attention and awareness just keep getting more and more interesting. Thanks for the simple examples.
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