What is "Mind?"

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MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 10, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
Jim: . . . about considering what is mind, the idea of a long memory and its physical result between humans has been soft pedaled, or disregarded in this thread.

Not recently here.

The physical and mental are hopelessly intertwined. Each helps to define each other. It's a dance.

"You say Tomato,
I say "tamato,"
Let's call the whole thing off."
(Gershwin)

We have plenty of empiricists who want to say that all they know is what they know through their senses. On the other hand, we have the mentalists who say that all that we know about the physical is defined by the mental. Obviously, (and I'm sure that Jan can say much here, as others), memory helps to define what is known.

So what's really what?

Just give it up. It's a dead horse. We really could use another paradigm than the empirical paradigm. It has so very little to do with what and who we are.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Aug 10, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
Thanks MikeL,

I'll let that be my last thought when I let someone who thinks they know more about what is mind than I do, metaphysically lop off my head.
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 10, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Sorry to interrupt the stimulating geopolitical strategerizing, but I wanted to say that of all the thousands of posts on this thread, I find those related to attention and awareness being neurologically disjoint to be among the most illuminating material to appear, at least for me since I have never given much thought to either and certainly not one being separate from the other. Several articles on the internet have helped fill in the blanks, although my thinking is still a bit muddled on the issue. My age, I suspect.

Attention schema on the other hand sounds like metaphysics knocking on the door of science. And all the past discussions about no-thingness and emptiness are like a bad dream.

I can't help but think of that very old film, that probably only you and I remember, "The Three Faces of Eve" (Jan)

Sorry, Jan. That was before my time!

;>)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 08:25pm PT

Yes, your neural body system is a control system. This was first discovered by the ancient Greeks. Is this...news? Does this actually bother you for some reason? Do you feel that Little Man In Your Head is keepin you down? TVash

That was then. Today don't we consider the brain and nervous system "A Learning Organism"? Firstly and Foremostly our brains and bodys are set-up for learning and re-learning every foot-step. Every morning we rise our bodies go through a relearning of what it learned the day before. Our memories form the models. But the Body must relearn an activity like brushing ur teeth because we are physically different each and every day.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Aug 10, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^

Marginally, in a slight variance way of approaching the obvious...

Blublockr, reconsider dogmatism. You may bark less but your intellect could achieve more bite.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 09:33pm PT

If it backfires and we find ourselves treaty bound to defend a newly aggressive Japan, we will have only ourselves to blame.

Is Japan wanting to become more aggressive? To gain what? i thought they were liv'in large!

One positive of war, it gets easy to predict an opponents intent by where they move their troops.

We want to move OURS to Japan. What does that tell you?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
Thanks Jim!
Right back atch'ya!
But i'm not out to kill, i'm jus nibbling.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Aug 10, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
If a dog barks in the forest, did anybody hear ?
WBraun

climber
Aug 10, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
Yes

There is the One who is the master of all sound vibrations .....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
I find those related to attention and awareness being neurologically disjoint to be among the most illuminating material to appear, JGill

By "disjoint" do you mean the physical body isn't responsible for producing attention or awareness?



But here he said;

Attention decides whats being attended to based on signal strength of top down and bottom up stimuli - this gets summarized and modeled in your attention schema (ei, you're consciously aware of it), the attention schema arrow B takes various actions via neural signals, both directly to the attention (not attention schema) circuitry (this is the feedback loop) and to the rest of the body (move, etc) TVash

i can't understand if the schema is Giving or Taking signals from the neurons.

But either way atleast one of them is "hardwired" in the meat.


BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
With that said,

Where's the hardwiring to where i direct my thoughts?

i can divert my attention up, down, left, right, allaround...

But WHO/WHAT is pinpointing the discussion?

It can't be meat, can it?

Is it Chemical or Electrical

Is it written in my meat that i would rather have a Pink Prius over a black one?

Or is it the chemical and electrical stimulus' that awakens when i visualize/feel pink?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
I don't know where Blue gets the idea that we are moving our troops to Japan. We've had them there since 1945.


I also don't know where jgill was in 1957 but I'm pretty sure he was around then.

To refresh his memory, here's the Wiki article on the Three Faces of Eve and you can even watch the whole movie on YouTube.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Faces_of_Eve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOxxf8zJt9M


And Tvash is right about Vietnam. There are old newsreels showing Hanoi on its Independence Day with Ho Chi Minh reading a declaration of Independence worded similarly to ours, while people in the streets waved hand made American flags and drawings of Harry Truman, sure that the U.S. would support their cause. Instead we supported colonialism and the French return there.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:35pm PT

I don't know where Blue gets the idea that we are moving our troops to Japan.

i just heard that on CCTV our locally(free) TV station broadcasted from China about world news. It's Very good! They had said Japan is going to allow America to ramp-up it's military presence in the face of what China is doing.

try googleing CCTV
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
attention schema = informational model of our attention = awareness. Synonyms.

Graziano's entire theory in one sentence (his words): Awareness is an attention schema.

One must take political context into account. When Ho Chi Minh began to make overtures to the US for help with their independence movement, the iron curtain was already in place. Two years later the Soviets tested a nuke and the Chinese Revolution ignited. Communism was already America's political watchword - like Terrorism is today. The US' all too brief hegemony was already being challenged.

Politically, the US preferred a trusted French proxy in SE Asia to the unknown - the birth of a nascent state in close proximity to China.

What the US didn't bank on was France getting its ass kicked.

Hijinks ensued.

We didn't bank on getting our asses kicked either, but there were those in the Eisenhower administration who warned of just such an eventuality.

Ah well, the war brought our family to the West Coast, so there's that.





MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 10, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Jim: . . . metaphysically lop off my head.

I think you mean metaphorically, not metaphysically.

(What would be your "metaphysical head" hmm?)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 10, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
this is my understanding dilemma,

If awareness is a model of attention, how is it simplified? How is it inaccurate? Well, one easy way to keep track of attention is to give it a spatial structure — to treat it like a substance that flows from a source to a target. In reality, attention is a data-handling method used by neurons. It isn’t a substance and it doesn’t flow. But it is a neat accounting trick to model attention in that way; it helps to keep track of who is attending to what. And so the intuition of ghost material — of ectoplasm, mind stuff that is generated inside us, that flows out of the eyes and makes contact with things in the world — makes some sense. Science commonly regards ghost-ish intuitions to be the result of ignorance, superstition, or faulty intelligence. In the attention schema theory, however, they are not simply ignorant mistakes. Those intuitions are ubiquitous among cultures because we humans come equipped with a handy, simplified model of attention. That model informs our intuitions. Giovanni

if Attention isn't suppose to have substance or flow, how isn't that ghostly?

"Substance" and "flow" sounds like matter and energy to me.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 11, 2014 - 09:45am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/opinion/sunday/hit-the-reset-button-in-your-brain.html
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 11, 2014 - 09:46am PT
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2014/08/11/the-brainwave-that-lets-you-recognize-whats-new-in-the-world/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 11, 2014 - 10:24am PT
I'd be very interesting in learning who these other authors are who previously came up with the attention schema idea - you know, from your limited reading.

For the sake of completeness and all. I'd like to read their work as well.

Graziano does a thorough review of outstanding theories and literature in the second half of his book and funny - I don't recall him mentioning that his attention schema as being borrowed from anyone.

TIA
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 11, 2014 - 11:18am PT
By "disjoint" do you mean the physical body isn't responsible for producing attention or awareness? (BB)

Of course not. I meant from each other, different neural circuits.


I also don't know where jgill was in 1957 but I'm pretty sure he was around then (Jan)

Romping up the direct Jensen Ridge on Symmetry Spire, finding three different ways to climb the "crux pitch", just for fun!


;>)
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