What is "Mind?"

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
DMT

No, nothing personal, just facts... ^^^

Is it personal to you - as a person?

Or to you - as an American?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Neither. Its not personal at all. Hence my lumping. If you'd like me to single you out I'm not certain I can oblige for long. You're an agreeable chap and all....

but some cheapo advice - until you understand that a vast majority of Americans WANT guns you understand nothing. Lump on lump off. Americans like their guns. Lobby or no lobby.

DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
which bees?

the ones that were imported from Europe during the colonization of North America? these are an exotic species.

or the native bees...
which are considered unruly, unproductive and unwanted?

what do the bees think about this?


snakefoot

climber
cali
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
this topic has truly deteriorated from the OP, shocker i know. kind of like this case of juvenile dementia with severe brain atrophy

from the web
from the web
Credit: from the web
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
which bees?

The wild unruly bees are slowly disappearing in Norway too, but still not the "man-made" "productive" ones. In America they're all disappearing. Or are they not?

The difference between Norway and the US may be a consequences of the difference in the climate, a shorter farming season in Norway and less use of pesticides.

What do the bees think about this?
I dunno. Ask some bee... ^^^

Do lichens disappear?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 5, 2014 - 01:49pm PT

- until you understand that a vast majority of Americans WANT guns you understand nothing.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

Majority of what group are you talkin? Under age 18 = 0 guns. Women 18 and older = what maybe 2%? Men 18 and older = Besides the ones that have guns for professional use, like police, guards, military, etc. of the rest of the men the count that have guns couldn't be more then 20-25%

It's a minority that own guns, and control the voice of control under the Constitution.
And I think they could be jus over publicizing it to keep the Canucks afraid of invading.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 5, 2014 - 02:18pm PT

or the native bees...
which are considered unruly, unproductive and unwanted?

HaHa, Now ur Preach'in!

Seriously I guess one would have to ask; which one is more native, on the evolutionary chart. Shouldn't the Bee closest to the "Original" Bee specie to evolve. Shouldn't they have the right-away? Their the ones with the stronger cells for survival, right?
We've learned something about that with our cross-breeding with dogs,cows, horses, etc.

Or why not crossbreed the Bees and maybe the bad ones will get gooder?

How do think Nature made a BBee? Did she cross-breed a couple of someth'in else's right before the Bee on the scale? Or did a whole swarm of something decided to start making honey?
jgill

Boulder climber
Colorado
Aug 5, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
We need to leave the bees and return to my Stapler, which, as has been mentioned, becomes "no-Stapler" when I remove it from my desk.

This could be a profound breakthrough. Is Stapler a product of mechanics, or does it exist independently, an entity for which words are insufficient?
MH2

climber
Aug 5, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
If you truly understand stapler you should be able to make one.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Aug 5, 2014 - 04:04pm PT

God’s Will vs. the Scientific Method

In my early life being born into a religious family fear and peer pressure were always the greatest motivators of my religious beliefs. After my parents’ divorce and my father’s subsequent leaving of the church and the ministry, I lost all faith. For years I was torn between believing in the ideology of my religious upbringing or of accepting a factual physical world full of changes, innovations, a Cultural Revolution, and new found knowledge along with fantastic breakthroughs in medicine, technology, and space exploration. The latter was contrary to all my religious upbringing whereby I was asked to take everything on faith and to focus all my attention on the repeated study of one book.

This so called ‘Christian' philosophy was tied to racism, the abuse of women and children, and the subjugation of the masses. It appeared to me that the pious and righteous were more interested in maintaining the reins of power than they were in any kind of devotion to family, humanitarian ideas, and open expression of ideas and thought.

How could I continue to believe in just one book and ideology when I could read many books and believe in and be open to many ideologies?

Any study of the holy war in the Middle East reveals how patently obvious it is that politics and religion are married at the hip. The fact that the scientific ideas and technology of today have been proven beyond all expectations shows how petty and moronic is it for some religious leaders to incorporate a new form of mysticism into their theology called 'creationism' in order to justify their outdated worldview.

Fear and peer pressure remained for me a motivator to claim the title of ‘Agnostic’ throughout my early adulthood and I was unable to tear myself away from the idea that God might still exist, if only for the purpose of satisfying my fear of not to being left out of some grand plan or purpose. I still had no clue as to what this grand plan of god might be and I hovered on the periphery of one philosophy or another.

All this time would have been wasted were it not for the fact that it cemented in me a yearning to believe in something that I could wrap my mind around and physically touch, the real world that I live and breathe in. This would require that I accept death as the endgame and to love and learn to experience life day by day for all of its worth.

For the last several years I have embraced this as ‘Atheism’ and the believe in scientific ideas, changing and evolving as they constantly are. What a relief to accept that we live in a world that relies on science and technology for 99% of our physical comfort, medical well being, personal safety, and overall survival, and to give full credit where credit is due; The scientists, school teachers, people of medicine, test pilots and astronauts, and all the people who have sacrificed and risked everything to throw off the reins of tyranny in the hope for the free flow of scientific ideas and democratic processes of a free society.

Yes, I'm an atheist. Some people don't like it and I can accept that. I have too spent too much time already trying to figure out something I could never figure out and I know I'm a reasonably intelligent person, but religion should not be rocket science.

Physicists often speak of trying to "read the mind of God". I wonder if they say this because of their own personal faith or if they are just trying to appease their theologian colleagues. I wish they would just say that it's about their search for knowledge. That's why I have always been interested in learning about science in the first place. Of all the important events that have happened during my lifetime I would have to say the Apollo Landing, the ending of the Vietnam war, the falling of the Iron curtain, the creation of the internet, and the election of Barack Obama as president have been the most pivotal.

People say this or that is God's will or that it is not for us mortal beings to always know God's plan.

People ask if are you are angry at God for taking a loved one and then telling you that it was the right time for that person to meet their reward, and they are now in a better place.

All these ideas are subject to the priest’s and clergy’s interpretation of what they believe is God's will.

If you truly believe you can read the mind of God, or hear God speaking through you, or have been given a calling, how does this supersede other people's rights or experiences?

My disclaimer; these are my thoughts and not God talking through me, in fact I've never heard voices in my head besides that of my own dreams, consciousness, and/or instinct.

My opinion:

If you want to learn about the past, study religion... or study history.

If you want to learn about the present or stay in the now, meditate... or pay more attention.

If you want to learn about the future, get a crystal ball... or study science.


-bushman
08/05/2014
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 5, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
Despite extensive analysis, Fermi bubbles defy explanation
Aug 01, 2014
Despite extensive analysis, Fermi bubbles defy explanation
This artist's representation shows the Fermi bubbles towering above and below the galaxy. Credit: NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center

(Phys.org) —Scientists from Stanford and the Department of Energy's SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory have analyzed more than four years of data from NASA's Fermi Gamma-ray Space Telescope, along with data from other experiments, to create the most detailed portrait yet of two towering bubbles that stretch tens of thousands of light-years above and below our galaxy.

The bubbles, which shine most brightly in energetic gamma rays, were discovered almost four years ago by a team of Harvard astrophysicists led by Douglas Finkbeiner who combed through data from Fermi's main instrument, the Large Area Telescope.

The new portrait, described in a paper that has been accepted for publication in The Astrophysical Journal, reveals several puzzling features, said Dmitry Malyshev, a postdoctoral researcher at the Kavli Institute for Particle Astrophysics and Cosmology who co-led on the analysis.

For example, the outlines of the bubbles are quite sharp, and the bubbles themselves glow in nearly uniform gamma rays over their colossal surfaces, like two 30,000-light-year-tall incandescent bulbs screwed into the center of the galaxy.

Their size is another puzzle. The farthest reaches of the Fermi bubbles boast some of the highest energy gamma rays, but there's no discernable cause for them that far from the galaxy.

Finally, although the parts of the bubbles closest to the galactic plane shine in microwaves as well as gamma rays, about two-thirds of the way out the microwaves fade and only gamma rays are detectable. Not only is this different from other galactic bubbles, but it makes the researchers' work that much more challenging, said Malyshev's co-lead, KIPAC postdoctoral researcher Anna Franckowiak.

"Since the Fermi bubbles have no known counterparts in other wavelengths in areas high above the galactic plane, all we have to go on for clues are the gamma rays themselves," she said.

What Blew The Bubbles?

Soon after the initial discovery theorists jumped in, offering several explanations for the bubbles' origins. For example, they could have been created by huge jets of accelerated matter blasting out from the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy. Or they could have been formed by a population of giant stars, born from the plentiful gas surrounding the black hole, all exploding as supernovae at roughly the same time.

"There are several models that explain them, but none of the models is perfect," Malyshev said. "The bubbles are rather mysterious."

Creating the portrait wasn't easy.

"It's very tricky to model," said Franckowiak. "We had to remove all the foreground gamma-ray emissions from the data before we could clearly see the bubbles."

From the vantage point of most Earth-bound telescopes, all but the highest-energy gamma rays are completely screened out by our atmosphere. It wasn't until the era of orbiting gamma-ray observatories like Fermi that scientists discovered how common extra-terrestrial gamma rays really are. Pulsars, supermassive black holes in other galaxies and supernovae are all gamma rays point sources, like distant stars are point sources of visible light, and all those gamma rays had to be scrubbed from the Fermi data. Hardest to remove were the galactic diffuse emissions, a gamma ray fog that fills the galaxy from cosmic rays interacting with interstellar particles.

"Subtracting all those contributions didn't subtract the bubbles," Franckowiak said. "The bubbles do exist and their properties are robust." In other words, the bubbles don't disappear when other gamma-ray sources are pulled out of the Fermi data – in fact, they stand out quite clearly.

Franckowiak says more data is necessary before they can narrow down the origin of the bubbles any further.

"What would be very interesting would be to get a better view of them closer to the galactic center," she said, "but the galactic gamma ray emissions are so bright we'd need to get a lot better at being able to subtract them."

Fermi is continuing to gather the data Franckowiak wants, but for now, both researchers said, there are a lot of open questions.

Explore further: Measuring gravitational waves with eLisa

Journal reference: Astrophysical Journal search and more info website

Provided by Stanford University search and more info website

Despite extensive analysis, Fermi bubbles defy explanation
Aug 01, 2014 40

http://phys.org/news/2014-08-extensive-analysis-fermi-defy-explanation.html#nwlt
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 5, 2014 - 10:00pm PT

What Blew The Bubbles

Maybe the Big Black Hole farted?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:07am PT
Graziano describes a theory of attention (not his own) where thoughts compete with and suppress each other. The 'loudness' of any given thought can have an bottom up bias (ex: immediate sensory input) or a top down bias (ex: accessed memories).

Both happen simultaneously.

So, too, an issue like gun violence. If we substitute 'rates of gun violence' for 'attention' analogously, one quickly realizes that this, too, is affected by bottom up bias (protect-my-family hero fantasies, destruction-as-play, appreciation of finely crafted machines, etc) and top down bias (gun makers and their allies tapping into the above in their PR/marketing campaigns to sell more guns).

Each bias, in turn, can be broken down into its own top-down/bottom-up bias hierarchy. Protect-my-family hero fantasies might be handed down by Dear Old Dad (top-down) and release endorphines/adrenaline whenever a gun is fired that reinforces the fantasy (bottom-up). Gun maker executives want to fulfill their fiduciary duty to their shareholders (top-down) and keep watching those sunsets from their lake-front summer houses (bottom-up).

Thus, the Tragedy of the Commons quickly becomes a very complex, hierarchical, two way conversation - and this is just one very simple way to describe it.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:09am PT
Graziano also describes consciousness, awareness, and attention as information - and that leads me to this fundamental question that sidesteps the 'objects' distraction:

Is the void information?

After all, anything (or no-thing - pure semantics) we can experience, real or imagined, possible or impossible, is information. Even the void.

Right?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:37am PT
"Or why not crossbreed the Bees and maybe the bad ones will get gooder?"

Ladies and gentlemen, introducing the Future of Tropical Agriculture, the Africanized honeybee...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:42am PT
The Universal Void thing is becomes more interesting when one considers a person who is firmly convinced that, instead of The Void, they have a Stapler in their head.

Theories of explanation include:

a) Yes, they really do have a Stapler in their Head.
b) They have an information in their head that both describes the stapler and convinces them that it is, in fact, real - a realistic model of said Stapler they can 'feel'.

Now, either could be true. Hmmmm.
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Aug 6, 2014 - 08:43am PT
a Stapler in their Head, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

Credit: go-B

mindlessness vs no mind?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Aug 6, 2014 - 09:31am PT
Or why not crossbreed the Bees and maybe the bad ones will get gooder?

How do think Nature made a BBee? Did she cross-breed a couple of someth'in else's right before the Bee on the scale? Or did a whole swarm of something decided to start making honey?

Hmm, maybe the religious SHOULD stay away from science.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Aug 6, 2014 - 09:35am PT
The wild unruly bees are slowly disappearing in Norway too, but still not the "man-made" "productive" ones. In America they're all disappearing. Or are they not?

There is a problem with sudden hive death. It is linked to monoculture crops but more importantly the pesticides used on those crops. In the case of corn, that rests squarely on Monsanto and the farmers who use that sh#t.

But the hive death thing is also hyped beyond all recognition by those seeking to sell 'news.' Thus people on the other side of the world don't really know from what.

But I guess that's an American problem too. After all its our news.

DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 6, 2014 - 09:44am PT
An illustration of the difference between 'attention' and 'awareness'. Most the time 'awareness' tracks 'attention' pretty closely, but not always. In this experiment, subjects attended to the face, but most of that process never entered their awareness schema.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140805220718.htm
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