What is "Mind?"

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allapah

climber
Apr 9, 2019 - 11:35pm PT
Yes.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Apr 10, 2019 - 07:42am PT
And you'll never figure it out without the full understanding of the soul and consciousness itself

So its up to him? Sounds like he has to figure it all out, while you and the other side hold the spiritual knowledge. Doesn't collective knowledge advance our understanding?


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 10, 2019 - 09:12am PT
Largo's mentioned what is called the "PROSODIC CUE?"

I just brought this up on the Flaming Pages over yonder, having read about it in a book on music which I recently acquired.

There is a lot more to the PC than rising tones.

In my misspent days in C4? When Bridwell had the camp behind the Chevron? The Bircheff brothers' elder half, Dave? Well, he spoke in PC.

Some of you probably will recall his voice?
I am glad to have finally contributed something to this fine thread at Long last.

Let me also say that it was my pleasure to have met you at RR's memorial, Largo.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2019 - 09:33am PT
Ed mentioned the challenges of understanding mind via an "isolated brain model."

This mirrors the problems - eventually insupperable - that 50s behaviorialism faced when trying to "understand" psychology by way of studying external behavoir as (they believed) it issued from auto-generated reflexive behavior much as a computer responds to a command. IOWs, it was looking at people "isolated" from the whole, trying to get hold of things through analysis of discret, stand-alone actions wrought through an evolutionary process and which a person was born with. Turns out this is true in one sense, but altogether false in other ways, especially if one believes there is no more to it than inherited, genetic drivers behind behavior which can be know and inderstood is an "isolated" way, in remove from the whole.

Behavioralism dead-ended when Winicotte and others discovered that people largely behaved by way of attachments styles that were leared though the collective holding environment with their primary caretakers. In other words, through interactive - not isolated - experience.

The isolated objective universe our common sense tells us is "out there," independent of us, preexisting into which we are born and which we leave (when we die) in much the same state as we found it - this is no easy matter to unpack.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 10, 2019 - 09:38am PT
Ah, a post from MFM. We do not need to resolve our differences. Let us celebrate them, and our climbing past.


What is "Mind?"


Better to show than to tell. Joe H should understand.



Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Apr 10, 2019 - 10:21am PT
In 8 years I have not changed my mind but I have broadened it and had lots of insights in the process.

Meanwhile interesting dichotomy of viewpoints here.

"They often sound like eunuchs with law degrees, or techies who are in dire need of sun exposure on their nuts.

vs.

Ending a statement as a question seems to shift the burden of authority?

It's a sly way to avoid committing to any position on anything, whereby all is fluid.

and your listener interjects and "uh-huh" right then and there, while you are talking"

The former sounds like left brain legalistic bureaucratic Americana taken to its extreme while the latter sounds to me like a society that is learning how to live together in crowded urban environments. I typically regard the latter as being the Japanization of American discourse.

It has been said that Americans speak to communicate ideas while the Japanese speak to establish rapport. Japanese typically never commit to anything but always end their sentences with a question "desu ne?" and start saying "hai hai", yes, yes, almost as soon as the speaker starts a sentence. If the speaker is Japanese then the verb being at the end of the sentence enables the speaker to gauge whether the listener is really in agreement and if not, to change the adjectives in the middle before concluding with a questioning verb at the end.

A Japanese will never tell you a direct no, so you must learn from other cues whether they mean maybe, probably not, or hell no (the latter expressed with a long sucking sound and the declaration "muskashi" meaning difficult. That's as close to a no as you will ever get. And of course there are a proliferation of polite words everywhere with lots of apologies. I say "Oh no, another rainy day" and the Japanese person responds "I'm sorry".

Mainly I notice these changes in American speech patterns in my online courses where the students grow ever more polite with each other and almost every discussion reply begins with "awesome" or "great job" even when followed by a well thought out and somehwhat critical reply.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 10, 2019 - 10:57am PT
It has been said that Americans speak to communicate ideas while the Japanese speak to establish rapport. Japanese typically never commit to anything but always end their sentences with a question "desu ne?" and start saying "hai hai", yes, yes, almost as soon as the speaker starts a sentence. If the speaker is Japanese then the verb being at the end of the sentence enables the speaker to gauge whether the listener is really in agreement and if not, to change the adjectives in the middle before concluding with a questioning verb at the end.

I have always suspected that much of what eventually became known as "the Rashomon effect" was due, at least in part, to the above cited vagaries intrinsic to the Japanese language. Since I cannot understand nor speak Japanese my assumption has always remained just that, an assumption. In some cursory background research on this film I found very little in the way of discussion at all about the role of language in defining the stubborn elasticity inherent in the varying versions of the shocking event around which the film is meticulously structured. Certainly not by Kurosawa himself unless I've missed something.

The film is known for a plot device that involves various characters providing subjective, alternative, self-serving and contradictory versions of the same incident. Rashomon marked the entrance of Japanese film onto the world stage;[3][4] it won several awards, including the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival in 1951, and an Academy Honorary Award at the 24th Academy Awards in 1952, and is considered one of the greatest films ever made. The Rashomon effect is named after the film.

BTW Mifune is in fine physical form in this film; rarely has such a lead role been so requiring of a high level of physical fitness. A characteristic seen time and again in Kurosawa's films. The Seven Samurai for instance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon

The Rashomon effect occurs when an event is given contradictory interpretations by the individuals involved. The effect is named after Akira Kurosawa's 1950 film Rashomon, in which a murder is described in four contradictory ways by four witnesses.[1] The term addresses the motives, mechanism and occurrences of the reporting on the circumstance and addresses contested interpretations of events, the existence of disagreements regarding the evidence of events and subjectivity versus objectivity in human perception, memory and reporting.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 10, 2019 - 11:39am PT
That was interesting, Jan. TFPU. Some significant similarities, no? :-)

Denotation vs. connotation. If one gives the two consideration, which would one deem as most important? Which one *does* one show to be more important? I'd venture to say that if one posts an attitude here, it will get more and quicker response than a literal, denotative statement. (Perhaps that's my reading, only.)

Ward, MH2, Capseeboy, Largo, thanks for the kind words. I'm not giddy with happiness, but I do feel a little like I'm walking about an inch off the floor.

Werner says I will not find bliss in materialism. Perhaps so. From my view, bliss looks to be something like serenity, and serenity seems to arise from a lack of assessment or evaluation. Things can go almost any way, and the differences don't seem to matter. It's a curious thing though, Werner, that materialism is often presented as some kind of a strange attractor for everything unenlightened. If one doesn't take it too seriously or concretely, what's the matter with material-ism?

Sometimes spirituality seems too ascetic, narrow, and unbalanced.
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2019 - 11:56am PT
bliss looks to be something like serenity

You are guessing again ... with way too much impersonalism.

You'll understand real bliss when actually get there.

Sometimes spirituality seems too ascetic, narrow, and unbalanced.

That's because you're sooo steeped in impesonalism and Mayavadi ......
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 10, 2019 - 07:53pm PT
Aided AI?


In this case, the process is known as data annotation, and it’s quietly become a bedrock of the machine learning revolution that’s churned out advances in natural language processing, machine translation, and image and object recognition. The thought is, AI algorithms only improve over time if the data they have access to can be easily parsed and categorized — they can’t necessarily train themselves to do that. Perhaps Alexa heard you incorrectly, or the system thinks you’re asking not about the British city of Brighton, but instead the suburb in Western New York. When dealing in different languages, there are countless more nuances, like regional slang and dialects, that may not have been accounted for during the development process for the Alexa support for that language.

In many cases, human beings make those calls, by listening to a recording of the exchange and correctly labeling the data so that it can be fed back into the system. That process is very broadly known as supervised learning, and in some cases it’s paired with other, more autonomous techniques in what’s known as semi-supervised learning. Apple, Google, and Facebook all make use of these techniques in similar ways, and both Siri and Google Assistant improve over time thanks to supervised learning requiring human eyes and ears.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 10, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
Anyone seen a black hole?

Why?

Is one missing?

WASHINGTON (AP) — Scientists on Wednesday revealed the first image ever made of a black hole, depicting a fiery orange and black ring of gravity-twisted light swirling around the edge of the abyss.

The picture, assembled from data gathered by eight radio telescopes around the world, shows the hot, shadowy lip of a supermassive black hole, one of the light-sucking monsters of the universe theorized by Einstein more than a century ago and confirmed by observations for decades. It is along this edge that light bends around itself in a cosmic funhouse effect.

‘‘We have seen what we thought was unseeable. We have seen and taken a picture of a black hole. Here it is,’’ said Sheperd Doeleman of Harvard, leader of a team of about 200 scientists from 20 countries.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 10, 2019 - 09:08pm PT
What an amazing image. The phenomena associated with the event horizon are bizarre and intriguing. Perhaps "Black Hole Mysticism" will make an appearance on this thread. Could be fun.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Apr 10, 2019 - 10:24pm PT
It fits right in with parallel universes, don't you think? Desu ne?
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 10, 2019 - 10:36pm PT
OK

Could a black hole be where all those sought after subconscious images and beliefs reside?

Jung777?

There is a thread

Forgot to check

And I'm only 72

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3189119/First-Images-of-Black-Holes-Released-Tomorrow-4-10
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 10, 2019 - 11:18pm PT
Largo wrote: The isolated objective universe our common sense tells us is "out there," independent of us, preexisting into which we are born and which we leave (when we die) in much the same state as we found it - this is no easy matter to unpack.

It's actually extremely easy to unpack compared to untangling an unnaturally conflated medley of meditation, mysticism, particle physics, and quantum woo.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 11, 2019 - 07:38am PT
healyje: . . . an unnaturally conflated medley of meditation, mysticism, particle physics, and quantum woo.

Um, well, that might be a dualistic way of looking at things. If there is only one reality, then all those "things" are in it as diverse manifestations. Whatever they are made of, they might all be the same one thing--just showing itself as different images. As I tried to say to Werner, if "materialism" is an manifestation, then at its core, it's just like every other manifestation. There could be nothing "unnatural" about any thing.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 11, 2019 - 07:43am PT
Duck: You are guessing again ... with way too much impersonalism.

Well, that's your interpretation. No one has access to the consciousness I appear to be seeing. I'd say you are guessing.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2019 - 08:18am PT
No one has access to the consciousness I appear to be seeing

You reveal it .....

There's NO escape.
capseeboy

Social climber
portland, oregon
Apr 11, 2019 - 09:38am PT

From my view, bliss looks to be something like serenity, and serenity seems to arise from a lack of assessment or evaluation. Things can go almost any way, and the differences don't seem to matter.

If there are no mistakes, then everything is as it should be.

Rest easily friends.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2019 - 12:02pm PT
It's actually extremely easy to unpack compared to untangling an unnaturally conflated medley of meditation, mysticism, particle physics, and quantum woo.


Great. Unpack it for us.
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