What is "Mind?"

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WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2018 - 08:10am PT
When modern gross materialist scientists become frustrated from poor fund of knowledge they start eating because they are working in the mode of passsion .....
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Apr 11, 2018 - 08:18am PT
and their turds don't float.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 11, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
jogill: The other day when making a sandwich and letting my mind wander I put mustard on the bread instead of mayonnaise - a creative act, but one having dire consequences.

What are creative acts? Recomposing elements into something seemingly new? Adding something new to that which is tried and true?

Of all the characteristics that could be applied to consciousness, creativity would seem to be right up there in the top 5, maybe #1.

From my point of view, there is nothing more creative than *What This Is,* what I see in front of me at every moment. Of course I often donít have that understanding, like when I think I know whatís going on, when Iím in a rut or a routine or some unthinking social or personal practice. To the extent that I am aware, I see creativity in everything. But, itís not like I think there are all those things out thereónot really. Iíd say the more than one can let go, the more that one sees, and what one sees is absolute intelligence and creativity happening right there and right then.

Sure, making sandwiches could be amazingly creative acts. So can walking across this room. So can sitting here doing almost nothing at all. Everything depends upon what one sees. When a person gets that, then a completely new world starts to emerge. A very creative thing.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
and their turds don't float.

Yes ... when stool does not float the living human entity is NOT eating the correct food.

The modern gross materialist doctor does NOT know this simple knowledge and comes up with all these mental speculating st00pid diets.

Grasshopper learns from master who learned from the previous master which goes all the way back to the REAL original supreme master.

The gross materialists all try to become their own master and spend all their time mental speculating because they do NOT have the quantity of the real master.

Thus the gross materialists are impersonators and are always ultimately in poor fund of knowledge ....
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2018 - 08:52pm PT
What are creative acts? Recomposing elements into something seemingly new?

This reminded me of a puzzle associated with my art of dreaming experiences. Last year I fell into that state and saw a beautiful but strange, giant building, with people walking along the street in front. As I examined it I tried to connect it to anything I had ever seen, to no avail. Later, when awake, I continued to wander the corridors of memory, but no luck finding anything like it. Interestingly, the memory of that image is just as real as anything I have actually seen.

It remains a mystery whether the image was a composite of scenes I had witnessed, or perhaps something new and original arising from my subconscious. If a synthesis, it consisted of incremental bits and pieces of images in my memory, assembled by the marvelous mind.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 11, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
I'm happy to report my stools float. :)
Carry on...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 11, 2018 - 09:35pm PT
What also floats in water?
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
Life ......
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 12, 2018 - 08:35am PT
a beautiful but strange, giant building, with people walking along the street in front. As I examined it I tried to connect it to anything I had ever seen, to no avail.



I've also had dreams which were vivid, felt real, and seemed to come from outside rather than inside. I've also found keepsakes on shelves in my room and been reminded of experiences I had completely forgotten. Memory can be strange. When I think of how many hours in my life my mind could have been forming memories, versus how many hours I can recall voluntarily, I see a big difference.

When a person works on trying to remember a distant time in their life they can sometimes recover a lot. My Dad told me of a Scot who was in a German POW camp in WWII. He did not have much to do. He started trying to remember walks he had taken over the moors. Initially, few details were available. He kept trying for a couple years. It was like a jig-saw puzzle. Once several pieces fit together, it got easier. Eventually he was able to remember entire long hikes in good detail. Whether his memories were reliable is a question, though.

Our imagination can do wonderful things, too.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Dreams are generally reflections from our waking states .......
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 12, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Dreams are generally reflections from our waking states .......



You might have that backwards, Werner.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
Nope NOT backwards.

The material world is very real and NOT a dream.

The material world is just a temporary imperfect reflection of the absolute real ......
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2018 - 03:45pm PT
MikeL does make a good point regarding creativity. Is it possible to create something purely from scratch, without simply combining existing memories or physical materials? I would conjecture not, but who knows? When hallucinating under LSD or other drugs, are the images entirely alien or syntheses of fragments?

My late mentor, Arne Magnus, would say that no matter how original you think your mathematics is, it comes from an existing framework, and in a sense has been "done" before. (I was never quite sure what he meant)
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 12, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
Is it possible to create something purely from scratch, without simply combining existing memories or physical materials? I would conjecture not, but who knows? When hallucinating under LSD or other drugs, are the images entirely alien or syntheses of fragments?



Can you comment about your images produced from iterative computation in the complex plane? They are not created "purely" from scratch, but do not combine existing memories or physical materials other than in ways that do not predict the results.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
Good point, Andy. Although my imagery is an example of a mysterious weak emergence, it fundamentally arises from computer calculations done with existing mathematical concepts and processes, some of which are built in to BASIC. These could be construed to be bits and pieces of existing (computer) memory that are assembled, I suppose. I did not mean to imply creative projects need be predictable. The dream image of that building was not.

Paul can clarify if an art work created by a painter need necessarily reflect a clear mental image at the outset, but might, at least initially, arise spontaneously from the subconscious. I admit, not being an artist I don't know what I am talking about!

WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
My late mentor, Arne Magnus, would say that no matter how original you think your mathematics is, it comes from an existing framework, and in a sense has been "done" before.

Yes, 100% true and proves again that God exists.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Apr 12, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
The latest by jgill, if tilted sideways reminds me of some of the Hindu temples I've seen in India with gods and goddesses stacked on top of each other. Does this come out of jgill's unconscious (memories of a past life?) or the Indian computer programmer's memory transferred to the machine? Or do the Hindu symbols represent some universal human symbolism which itself reflects the mathematical nature of the universe? It's a bit like all those carved Russian dolls hiding inside of each other.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 12, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
Cogent and careful as usual, John.

We have a hard time coming up with the right language for what we are trying to say. I like your phrase, "entirely alien." I am pretty sure that the images you post are not built from existing fragments, except perhaps in the sense which Arne Magnus might have meant.

My guess is that anything truly and entirely alien would not be well-perceived by us. We would see it as something akin to what we already know. A truly and wholly alien artifact or object might not be seen as anything out of the ordinary by a typical human.

For example, I did not want to imply that predictability was or was not an aspect of your images. I was more struck by where they could have come from, like when you were trying to connect your dream to something you had seen before. That may be human inquisitiveness which doesn't work, here. Perhaps math has an existence outside of us which extends well beyond the mathematics we know. And perhaps your dream was not a building and people on a street, but that is how you saw it.

The existence of strange beautiful buildings which you don't remember seeing, with people walking along a street, goes beyond my imagination.

But it does make me glad to hear of it.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2018 - 10:12pm PT
I just heard a long rant about this, per the misconception, for some, that when an electron emits a photon, the electron "created" or gave rise or sourced said photon. To wit: "The photon is not selected from a "well" of photons living in the atom; it emerges directly out of the vacuum. There is no in-between state where the photon is being "made" or constructed or is "caused" by any thing. It instantly pops into existence."

Then I heard others rant about the vacuum NOT being nothing, but a boiling field.

Like most of the challenges in nailing down mind, explanations are usually worthless. Describing is difficult enough, but perhaps the only way to go. And even among folks in the selfsame field, the descriptions vary according to who presents the data, and the first assumptions held by the presenter.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 13, 2018 - 08:07am PT
And even among folks in the selfsame field, the descriptions vary according to who presents the data, and the first assumptions held by the presenter.

you can describe the calculations anyway you see fit, in the end you get an answer you can check against observation/experiment (a measurement), independent of the particular story you tell.

shut up and calculate.

it worked for Robert Millikan... as I linked up-thread. Even after winning the Nobel Prize for his work on the quantum description of the photo-electric effect, it took him 30 years to concede that Einstein had it right.

His work measured the Planck constant to 0.5% in the second decade of the 20th century.
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