What is "Mind?"

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2018 - 08:09pm PT
The interesting part, for me, is why we have a particular sense of physical presence at all.


And behind, so to speak, the physical presence, or sense of the physical, is the presence itself - here before we think about it or conceptualize
- in which the physical is embedded.
xCon

Social climber
909
Apr 4, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
doesn't the observation of what species can recognize themselves in the mirror shed light on that?
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 4, 2018 - 09:56pm PT
xCon: doesn't the observation of what species can recognize themselves in the mirror shed light on that?

Yes, I’d say it’s a surface feature.

I remember an article in a book, Similarity and Analogic Reasoning (Stella Vosniadou and Andrew Ortony, 1989) from Medin and Smith (I think) that argued wonderfully that surface features are what best expresses “what is”: surface features most point to what underlies what is. Science on the other hand you see, is most concerned with deep-structured explanation . . . not what we see. What Medin and Smith were saying was not at all spiritual or deep—at least that was what we understood when we read it. But, it could have been understood as wisdom from babes.

We can run around in circles in games we make up on the playground, and nothing really happens other than the activity, the excitement, the fun of it. There’s nothing in it but the fun. The Bhagavad Gita refers to it as the Lila. It’s just Shiva (the destroyer and creator) dancing with wild abandon. That’s why his hair is portrayed sticking out like that little black kid in The Little Rascals. It’s crazy wisdom.
xCon

Social climber
909
Apr 4, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
but isn't "what is" an entirely human construct?

meanwhile out legal definition of 'person' is taking a hit as we discover so many previously considered lower life forms display a whole host of emotions that tradition reserved for homo sapiens...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 4, 2018 - 11:22pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FbD_ojWWXw

Is Our Universe Someone Else's Computer Simulation?

Linda Moulton Howe, Emmy Award-winning TV Producer and Reporter; Editor of the award-winning news website Earthfiles.com; and Investigative Reporter for Coast to Coast AM with George Noory on the iHeart Premiere Radio Networks opens up her investigations with human abductees and scientists about the possibility that our universe is Somebody Else’s computer simulation. Some people in the human abduction syndrome have reported that E.T.s describe our universe as a 3-D hologram projected from another dimension by a Super Intelligence. Quantum computer engineers and astrophysicists ask in scientific papers: “Are We Living in a Computer Simulation Universe?” On April 5, 2016, the Hayden Planetarium in New York hosted a debate on the question “Is the Universe A Simulation?” One of the panelists, James Gates, Ph.D., a theoretical physicist at the Univ. of Maryland said: “If the simulation hypothesis is valid, then we open the door to eternal life and resurrection and things that formally have been discussed in the realm of religion.” Human abductee Michael Talbot wrote in his 1992 book, The Holographic Universe, about what he learned from an alien.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 08:27am PT
doesn't the observation of what species can recognize themselves in the mirror shed light on that?
---


Who, or what, observes?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 5, 2018 - 09:22am PT
my head spins...

If the universe is a computer simulation and we're agents in that simulation, then perhaps those agents who've convinced the funders of scientific research that creating a "brain/mind" in computer simulation aren't selling snake oil after all.

The possibility of recursively generated simulation universes, in which the one universe, in simulation, creates another (or many) which in their own turn, create more, simulated universes, ad infinitum, could be considered mind boggling (if such a state is allowed in the program). Maybe they display their work in the fascinatingly beautiful images like those of our own jogill.

Or worse, perhaps jogill is unwittingly creating and destroying whole universes on his computer, a veritable Shiva, wielding his lap-top instead of a trishula, and a Corgi in his lap rather than a snake around his neck. Where is Ouch! when you need him? (On the other hand, we don't want to scare wbraun with such a depiction.)

The philosophical train wreck of The Matrix movie franchise seems tame in comparison. But apparently this sort of Hollywood "deep thought" passes for intellectually convincing argument. Oh, this was in reference to "Investigative Reporter for Coast to Coast AM with George Noory", obviously an attempt at authoritative attribution.

...on the other hand, perhaps all that's spinning is the cooling fan.




we could go into the energy requirements and physical limitations of such simulations, but why waste the time?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:17am PT
Two of the world's most eminent thinkers believe that the universe itself may be a giant hologram, quite literally a kind of image or construct created, at least in part, by the human mind.

https://www.amazon.com/Holographic-Universe-Revolutionary-Theory-Reality/dp/0062014102/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1522951465&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=holographic+universe
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:20am PT
The world as explored through physics and nature seems much more appealing than the worlds imagined through, "What if...?" or, "Could be..."


But a rest from reality now and then is healthy.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:34am PT
"The Holographic Universe is a landmark work whose exciting conclusions continue to be proven true by today's most advanced physics, cosmology, and string theory." (Amazon)

?????


The author, a horror fiction writer and proponent of the mystical, died of leukemia at the age of 38.
xCon

Social climber
909
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:40am PT
https://futurism.com/holometer-finds-no-evidence-support-holographic-principle-scientists-expected/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:53am PT
Classical and Quantum Gravity Blog: Why We Built The Holometer

MIT Press: Computational Psychiatry

jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 5, 2018 - 12:05pm PT
^^^ An excellent trend. I look forward to Computational Zen Meditation.

It's bound to happen.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
The world as explored through physics and nature seems much more appealing than the worlds imagined through, "What if...?" or, "Could be..."


I agree, that's why most subjective adventures start with the motto: Shut up and stop thinking (or asking What if and Could be questions).

What's more, the concept of a holographic universe is not reserved to sci fi writers. Check out the long out of date ideas of Davis Bohm, and how they are finding traction by younger physicists these days. But still Bohm's holographic universe is out at the fringe. Says one physicist:

“After decades and decades, people are taking Bohmian mechanics a little bit more seriously,” he says. “There was a time when you couldn’t even talk about it because it was heretical. It probably still is the kiss of death for a physics career to be actually working on Bohm, but maybe that’s changing.”

I spent a week with Bohm during grade school at Claremont in the early 1980s. Interesting fellow but a poor communicator.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Apr 5, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
I spent a week with Bohm during grade school . . .


No wonder you thought he was a poor communicator.

;>)
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
Bohm talked in huge sweeping arcs and would drift point to point interlarding his drift with mystical quotes, equations, and funky examples of holograms and things illustrating his implicate order, never breaking down his grad ideas into intelligible portions we could start to piece together into some coherent whole. Someone needed to stop him at every bend and have him dial a given point but nobody did. He simply never worked on his presentation.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 5, 2018 - 11:31pm PT
I hesitate to ask: Is presentation half of it?

I remember when I would read the journals, and a good article was one that did more than present the data and the analysis. There needed to be something of the unexpected, and in the best articles, there was also the “song.” Great writing sings.

With that thought in mind, one might review powerful ideas and their presentation as more than content, “things,” conceptualizations. Visualization, imagination, and perhaps even outright creativity (maybe “speculation”) might be what captures our attention and hence mind.

Data, plain and simple, lies flat on a piece of paper (ala, Strunk and White). We are suckers for a good story artfully written. What comes alive for us is what we believe in.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Apr 6, 2018 - 05:40am PT
We communicate with stories. Those who tell the best stories communicate the best.

Simply quoting other great writers doesn't make the person doing the quoting a good communicator; quite the contrary.

DMT
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2018 - 09:48am PT
Mike, I didn't mean "presentation" in terms of snazy clothes. I meant having enough clarity per your own ideas that they can be presented so people can understand them, or at least the basic tenets. A word salad and rush of ideas, as if discharged from a blunderbus, is hard to hang with.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Apr 7, 2018 - 09:53am PT
My thought about presentation was meant to be conflated with a notion that content is an indisputable, unchanging, and an independent thing.

It seems to me that when we write, define, or conceptualize a thing, what we are doing is we are giving one view, one perspective, of what we see. I’ve read that when authors commend another author, they say they appreciate his or her decisions that he or she has made in their writing. Hence, to my way of thinking, every writing is an imaginative task where one highlights this and ignores that. I’ve seen that science (and me) do it, and I see that creative artistic talent does it.

“Well, a (given) metric / concept is a metric / concept. Once I’ve defined them, we can be sure that’s what we’re looking at in each and every time.”

Whoa. Not so fast. The initial definition is a creative task, the presentation is loaded with them as well, and the “reading” of those scribbly little marks on the page is also a creative task. Some of us are not up to understanding those creative tasks. We don’t see them as creative.

Werner regularly reminds us of the ubiquity of projection. I’d say it’s something that can’t be brought to mind enough. (I’m doing it now.)

Yes, I have great admiration for a phrase well-turned. You’ve provided pages and pages of them, and they bring new perspectives of things I thought I fully knew.

To my mind these days, everything looks like a creative act. That seeing seems to arise the more I am present.
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