Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:52am PT
|
Repost from other thread... Since it seems relevant this page...
re: Failure to develop a replacement
Peterson: "Let's go back to one of the core problems we've been trying to address which is... the apparent failure, perhaps, of the rationalist-atheist types to develop an active ethos that has sufficient beauty and motivational power to serve as a credible replacement for the religious rituals. There must be a reason why that failure has occurred. Right? So do you have any sense of what the reason might be?"
Harris: "I can give you a short list of reasons: One is that traditionally the impulse to do that in a religious context has been fatal. To declare your apostasy has been almost as a reliable way of committing suicide as jumping off a building in most cultures and most societies for the longest time and still is in many places as you know in the Muslim world. There's been a barrier to entry to thinking creatively about alternatives to religion."
NOT FOR EVERYONE.
SOME PEOPLE FLY INTO A RAGE.
COURAGE REQUIRED.
This, how ironic. (Flipping the script.)
IT BREAKS US OUT OF MACHINE MODE.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:02am PT
|
re: To shrink back from the crux
re: To shrink back from the off-beaten path, the "new situation"
re: To shrink back from "the Big Moment"
Douglas Murray: "What are we doing here?" To be the first people in history to have absolutely no explanation for what we're doing, at all, is a Big Moment."
Sam Harris: "That sharpens up my concern perfectly because to shrink back from that Moment and resort to one of the pseudo-stories of the past - I consider to be a failure of nerve both intellectually and morally."
It's a Big Moment. :)
NOT FOR EVERYONE.
COURAGE REQUIRED.
...
Speaking of "adventurous intellect"...
Free Solo's Director Doesn't Give a F**k About Climbing
https://www.outsideonline.com/2342126/Elizabeth-Chai-Vasarhelyi-free-solo-movie
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:47am PT
|
"jgill, does your most recent algorithm have a name? "
No it doesn't, Jan. Mike told me to avoid labeling my mysterious creations and allow others to interpret them as they like. This image, and others similar to it, appear when I iterate sequences of linear fractional transformation forms (Yanqui will know what these are, I suspect). It's not surprising that the fleshy curves and structures appear since LFTs in their basic definition convert circles into other circles, including Circles of Apollonius.
I do hope eeyonkee is pleased with his award.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:58am PT
|
After studying typical social scripts people used to interact with others in mundane situations, he would send his graduate students out to break convention in those situations and recorded how others reacted. Not only did those other people not know how to respond (they often froze), but Goffman’s research indicated they would became outraged and at times would respond aggressively to his students’ behaviors.
Interactions between individuals in "mundane situations" who do not know one another can only proceed if both parties show a minimum of ground rule mutual respect and deference towards one another. If one of the parties chooses not too -- diverging from convention-- then it becomes clear to all that an outside agenda is at work in which adult communication is short-circuited and the self-interest of the agenda-driven party becomes paramount.( the graduate students breaking convention)
What is the outcome? The offended party "...often froze " or "responded aggressively."
No big surprise there. I hope not too much taxpayers dough was wasted here.
Not long ago a very smelly individual approached me asking for spare change. As I fished around in my pockets ( yes sometimes I am an "enabler") I thought I heard the tinkling of a nearby sprinkler head. Looking down I spotted urine exiting our smelly Guy's pant cuffs.
He was clearly departing from convention. My response was to not skip a beat, give him his dollar, wish him a good day, and go on my way.
Pity taught me in that moment that there was no outside agenda except that of a hopelessly broken man--and so I was able to go with it.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
|
No big surprise there. I hope not too much taxpayers dough was wasted here.
Only wasted if the experiment played out according to your first assumptions. The curious mind would want to know about the experiments themselves, and would defer evaluation till the story was told in all of its telling details.
First assumptions are the devil of mind studies. Along with conflation, they are possibly what curtails meaningful investigation more than any other two impulses.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
|
"First assumptions are the devil of mind studies."
Like there will never be a conscious machine?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
|
There are millions of conscious machines in service daily.
Just get into your car and start driving and immediately it is a conscious machine since a sentient conscious being is in control of the machine.
Without a sentient conscious living entity at the controls of the machine and is not a conscious machine but only a st00pid robot ......
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
|
The success of humans is predicated on an ability to adapt, quickly.
When you read this thread you can see they don't adapt quickly at all.
They adapt a glacial speed measured in thousands of years slow or not at all and devolve down into animal consciousness ....
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2018 - 06:11pm PT
|
Poor spider. No suitable prey in sight.
But enough spiders will make it through.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2018 - 11:18pm PT
|
Jim ... rage? But I like the avuncular tone. It's a "voice from nowhere," as Nagle said of the 3rd person perspective.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 08:33am PT
|
Largo: I'd love to hear some examples of people behaviorally breaking from the script, and how others responded.
Since I am no longer a faculty member at any college, I no longer have access to many journals as I used to have, and hence I do not have access to or cannot provide texts as I had earlier. But, for those with an interest in Goffman’s research, here are two things to read.
Here is Goffman’s writing from his most oft-cited book, “Interaction Ritual.” This URL provides the complete essay of Goffman’s ideas on face work. It describes how everyone is trying to project “face” and maintain it in social situations.
http://hplinguistics.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/38289359/Goffman%2C%20Erving%20%27On%20Face-work%27.pdf
The second URL below provide brief summaries of the chapters in Goffman’s book, “Interaction Ritual.” (The last chapter is most relevant to climbers who undertake “fateful actions.”)
http://www.icosilune.com/2008/08/erving-goffman-interaction-ritual/
Goffman’s works were iconoclastic for its time (1967) and perhaps a precursor to postmodern ideas about linguistic symbolic meaning and its creation. Whereas mainstream sociologists were concerned with broad societal factors and trends (big-data explanations of societies), Goffman was far more minimalist and focused on the small everyday social interactions that make-up our personal experiences with others.
I suggest that if one were to read Goffman’s chapter “On Face-Work” above, one will see explanations of most every post in this thread as various efforts to create and maintain face.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 09:58am PT
|
what does this "face work" have to do with scientific research?
in the end, an objective investigation is demonstrably independent of the social construction that supported it.
so humans are human, but science gets done anyway.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 11:07am PT
|
Only wasted if the experiment played out according to your first assumptions. The curious mind would want to know about the experiments themselves, and would defer evaluation till the story was told in all of its telling details.
First assumptions are the devil of mind studies. Along with conflation, they are possibly what curtails meaningful investigation more than any other two impulses.
In general you are right in your first paragraph--although my instincts about that particular study tells me it was a load of hooey. At this stage you know about as much as I do and yet you bought into it differently-- accepting it premise,method, and implied conclusions without apparent criticism.
First assumptions can indeed be problematic.
Nevertheless I do not think they have the power to curtail meaningful investigation. Normally first assumptions are eleminated or taken into account by the conscientious investigator.
We as casual observers should be skeptical-- especially at the outset, when confronted by claims we cannot immediately verify.
When you were confronted by that study you jumped to specific conclusions as to it's veracity
because perhaps it was seen by you to bend in a direction that confirmed certain of the assumptions that you carry around with you at the ready.
We all do this. More the reason to be skeptical until further wool-gathering settles the matter.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2018/09/13/how-your-brain-lies-with-confirmation-bias/#.W56fTetHarW
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
|
In general you are right in your first paragraph--although my instincts about that particular study tells me it was a load of hooey. At this stage you know about as much as I do and yet you bought into it differently-- accepting it premise,method, and implied conclusions without apparent criticism.
Quite the opposite. The assumption I avoided was to draw ANY conclusion, other then it might possibly be curious, as is often the case when people are shunted out of their mechanical roles and personalities. It might be bunk, might be genius, but you can't have an instinctual response to such a cursory report, but you can mentally cook up all kinds of interpretations. My point was that these interpretations are not based on the chingadera itself, but on a concept of same, a concept shaped by your own biases. IME, this is not the best approach per mind studies. You have to go into the thing with as few preconceptions as possible, and see for yourself what the genuine article is all about.
Simple as that.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
|
Proof that even CANINE MIND is capable of reiterative bayesian updating...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-KhOAgPlQ4
Forgive me if it has ads, I didn't check.
...
"I cannot tell you how extraordinarily distracted and spread out I am. I am trying to find various things in the archives; I look at old papers and hunt up unpublished documents. From these I hope to shed some light on the history of the [House of] Brunswick. I receive and answer a huge number of letters. At the same time, I have so many mathematical results, philosophical thoughts, and other literary innovations that should not be allowed to vanish that I often do not know where to begin."
-Gottfried Leibniz
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
|
My point was that these interpretations are not based on the chingadera itself, but on a concept of same, a concept shaped by your own biases. IME, this is not the best approach per mind studies. You have to go into the thing with as few preconceptions as possible,
Father, I confess that I have had preconceptions.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
|
Yes, you must repent as you have way too many preconceptions, mental speculations, and concoctions, along with heavy gross material brainwashing.
Now go sit in the corner and behave .... :-)
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
|
I try to have my preconceptions after I know the answer...
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 17, 2018 - 07:09am PT
|
Ed: what does this "face work" have to do with scientific research? in the end, an objective investigation is demonstrably independent of the social construction that supported it.
You’re remarkably naive.
(You might read the first article I pointed to.)
You consistently express science as if it was (i) performed by perfect human beings and (ii) and as a method that has no conceptual problems. Not even “replicability” is faultless as a verification of what’s real or truthfulness. It’s further remarkable, given your assumptions, that science is ever wrong.
One might say that science always wrong in that it never comes to any claim that is accurate, final, or complete. (But that too would be not completely right, either, would it?)
There is no objective investigation in any world or experience that’s socially constructed.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!