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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Aug 24, 2011 - 10:29am PT
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Chief- like you I don't believe in suicide. I have been the victim of attempted suicide by cop and have been first on scene of too many suicides. I used to believe that all suicides were because someone was weak. Some are but there are some that are not. Getting someone else involved or hurting someone else in the process is wrong. With my wife's depression and suicidal thoughts I know it is not because she is weak. She is one of the strongest people I know. She was born with a vascular malformation on her face that she has had 14 surgeries on, she raised three kids on her own, and is now helping me raise my 3 kids. Her depression is not triggered by any external factors. It is just the way her mind works. She takes her meds and goes to therapy. It helps but doesn't cure it. Some days are good for her and others are a struggle to make it to the next minute let alone the next day. I try to be supportive but many times I feel I am failing her because I cannot make it better. Until you or a loved one suffer from depression you cannot understand the hell they go through, and I don't think I will ever completely understand the hell my wife goes through.
Again I understand where you are coming from but please remember if they could just change the way they think they would. They do not want to live like that.
John M.- I am sorry you are going through what you are. I wish you the best of luck. Keep up the good work you are doing!
Eric
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Caz
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA.
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Aug 24, 2011 - 10:32am PT
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John,
Thanks You for sharing with us and giving us a little insight on the pain that you and others suffer from. It takes some courage to open yourself up to a group of people you don't know and and stand up to the judgement brought on by others. I hope the fight with the darkness you live with gets easier. I have fought with a darkness in my own life also, and your words encourage me.
If you ever need to talk with someone that is just an ear to vent to that has some sort of understanding, please feel free to contact me.
Zac
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Aug 24, 2011 - 10:34am PT
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Another thank you to ME climb.
Edit: ......and to others offering insight and support.
One day at a time.
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
ColoRADo
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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I knew a woman who had MS. She was at the stage in her life where she could barely walk. She depended on her children for everything. No longer wanting to put her family through the misery of seeing her suffer, she killed herself. I understand. Her family understands.
It's not really fair to judge every suicide as a cowardly act.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:12am PT
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AS for this question by Moosie;
"I Still want to know why its selfish to kill oneself, ..."
It's because we are not the real owners of our bodies.
You commit suicide and you will suffer as a ghost.
You have destroyed your material body without authorization and now have no material body to work in anymore.
You will now remain in your subtle body as a ghost suffering even worst .......
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ME Climb
Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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John and anyone else who needs an ear or encouragement please feel free to contact me as well. Caz you know I am always there for you my friend!
Eric
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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You don't have to be physically ill to have your mental illness be just as compelling. So many of our beautiful friends would be here if that were the case.
All we know about the man who jumped or fell from the top of half dome is that he must have been very scared as he fell. I feel sympathy for him and for the men who were present to see and hear it.
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:19am PT
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I can't imagine how anyone could stand at the top of Half dome, look out at the wonders before him and think "There is nothing left worth living for"
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:19am PT
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Werner...how can you know who or what guides people who kill themself? How can you know that they are acting as independent agents instead of being moved my a force greater than their own will?
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:20am PT
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Although it has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread that an act of suicide can be viewed as a singularly selfish act, I would posit that many more individuals LIVE life selfishly, repeatedly impacting others and the planet with far greater negative consequences, than those associated with the comparatively limited few who take their own lives.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:28am PT
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All we know about the man who jumped or fell from the top of half dome is that he must have been very scared as he fell. I feel sympathy for him and for the men who were present to see and hear it. +1
Thank you... Yosemite SAR.........They have a tough job..
Thanks, Tanslacks & Me Climb ..
For all those tacoheads who suffer with depression ..wishing you *better days..
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:43am PT
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I have to repectfully disagree, why should someone with a terminal illness be forced to continue sufferring ( and their families as well) ? I watched my Mom die a slow and painful death, and would not wish that experince on anyone. To put a blanket statment on a very complex issue - I can't buy that. Paul Linaweaver
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
ColoRADo
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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My Grandmother did that as well Chief. :-( Bravo to you for breaking that cycle.
I just read the rtip report in the other thread. Howie and Jed, stay strong. That had to have been terrible.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 24, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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HFCS
We will see who the real pretender is ......
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
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I am going to chime in on this. Chief is correct, yes killing oneself is a selfish act. I know. Daily I fight the battle, do I kill myself now or in wait till noon. Not a fun question to face. I think about it when I drive, work, eat and almost any time of day or night. When I climb it is not in my thoughts. Why do I not just do it? I have a wife, friends who I love. My death my solve my problems but not theirs. There are times when death is a loving solution, endless pain due to illness or injury are ok... I know people who were sinking into that level where life was nothing but suffering with lots of pain. The impact on the loved ones was just as painful.
I rant, but the fight continues. I am good today but tonight, who knows? Life has lots of good in it. Climbing and a cold beer are near the top. But evil does lurk and it can be defeated. I Know.
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
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the chef, as always showing he's a class act...investigation hasn't even been concluded yet...maybe this was Alex Honnold running a free solo lap...who knows...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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For some people with clinical depression suicide and other thoughts and actions are not a choice. When someone's brain chemistry and functioning is not working right they may not be able to control their thoughts and actions. People can completely lose control, it happens, nothing you do or say or nothing they think can change that sometimes. It's not a choice, it's not selfishness, it can simply be a lack of ability to make different choices.
If this was a suicide there's also the possibilities that the person; acted on impulse, they may have lost control of their ability to preserve themselves and jumped and the reports of the screams indicate enough time to regret that decision, or they may have simply not known people were below. I've been on the top of half dome and a woman was throwing peanut shells or something off the visor, I politely said "you know there may be climbers below' and she was aghast. She didn't think for one second she was putting people at risk.
It is wrong and lame to put others are risk, there's no excuse, and it's terrible, but again that person is probably completely out of their mind.
Creating a mess for others to clean up isn't a good idea. But consider these people are often so distraught and out of control they don't think about it. If they are willing to kill themselves they are dealing with issues beyond thinking about the mess they will create. It's like trying to warn some smokers about second hand smoke. If they are willing to smoke a known carcinogen daily that could kill them they probably aren't too concerned with a little bit of smoke making it's way to other people.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
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To even comprehend this concept is far beyond the realms of modern western man's thinking. Instead, western material man has come to believe what it does and would rather find pity and false empathy instead of dealing with the root of the real issue. Selfishness.
This isn't true. The true root of depression is hopelessness. Without hope, a soul withers. Its also not true that things are neither good or bad. There is much evil in this world. Melissa hit on an important point. There are forces in this world that can negatively impact people. Werner and the Chief are correct that one must do everything that they can to fight these demons, but I don't judge a person who gives in, in a moment of weakness, especially after a lifetime of fighting the good fight.
I don't care as much for my own reputation anymore, as I do for people I know. The thing that caused me to react so fiercely to the Chiefs sentiments and words was thinking about my friend. He called me recently and is going through another difficult time. He is right on the edge of possibly killing himself, and I won't be surprised if he ends up doing it. He has lived a very tough life, and has given of himself many times. As a POW he helped save multiple lives by volunteering to take the days punishments. Those punishments crippled him. I could tell you many many horror stories that he shared with me, what he was put through. From canning to the bottom of his feet until both feet had been broken countless times, to having broom handles with slivers shaved on them shoved up his rectum and bamboo slivers shoved underneath his fingernails.
He earned the silver star and the bronze star for his heroics in saving his brothers in arms. Should he decide to kill himself, I would not think him a coward. I would think him a troubled man who has been through hell, and for today, hell won. I hope he doesn't kill himself. I still support him and encourage him to keep trying, but I will understand if he is gone in a moment of weakness.
I know one thing, his brothers he served with would never call him a coward. I got a call just this last year from one of his brothers, telling me what he had done to save him. More then 40 years later and this man breaks down in tears telling me what my friend did for him.
Chief, I thank you for sharing your story about your family. I know that you have faced some tough things, and I admire your courage. I hope that I can continue to face my issues. When I talk about them, some of what I am doing is attempting to prepare my friends and family for what might happen. Just as someone with cancer would attempt to prepare their family. You may think I have a choice, and that may be true, but I also know and have seen how difficult it can be for some people to face life.
Should I kill myself and you want to call me a coward, I am okay with that. But you should know this, don't disrespect my friend in such a manner, should he decide to end his life. I know him well and he wont put anyone else at risk. He will try to keep the mess to a minimum, but because our society doesn't allow doctors to help, the choices one has tend to be messy if one wants them to be fully lethal. It is just the way it is. Hell, if society would let me, I would dig my own grave, put myself in it and pull the trigger. And I know my friend would do the same. Going out somewhere where no one would find me, isn't an option. My family would hurt too much not knowing. I do know places like that, but I wont do it that way. We had a thread here on the taco about someone who died and wasn't found for a bunch of years. So I know that isn't the way.
I agree with you that one should fight to the end. But I disagree with the sentiment that all suicides are due to cowardliness and selfishness. The act may be cowardly and selfish, but that doesn't mean the person as a whole is cowardly or entirely selfish. One act does not make or break a person.
...
To everyone who has written me with kind words. I say thank you. I would write you privately, but my energy is low right now. Two days ago I reinjured my back, and am having to deal with that, along with a myriad of other physical problems. I still can't walk on my foot that cramped 3 weeks ago from a med I was taking. So in part the Chief is right, my current bout with depression is situational. Situation FUBAR..
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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From the San Francisco paper:
"Investigators are trying to determine how a man plunged more than 4,000 feet to his death while climbing the Half Dome summit in Yosemite National Park."
I'd like to know how he fell 4,000 feet off a 2,000 foot rock, too.
Maybe he fell off it twice.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 24, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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I have been in therapy well over four years now.
maybe you can get yr money back?
heh
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