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dipper
climber
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:20am PT
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cheef nose.
period.
peace to the fella that flew off the dome.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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to say that suicide is selfish and cowardly is silly and ignorant
might bum out witnessing climbers for a spell, I guess (or not), but that can't possibly compare with whatever personal ordeals the suicide is going through
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 01:43am PT
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Anger at the selfishness that exists when individuals do just this one did and kills others in their final act.
I can understand this.. Putting others at risk is bad. Creating a horrible mess to be cleaned up is also bad.
but as Ken pointed out, will yelling at someone who is suffering really help them? Would yelling at a soldier dealing with PTSD or depression really help them? Or might it push them over the edge? Calling someone a chickenshit doesn't always work. It might work with you, but it doesn't work with everyone.
I have dealt with issues of depression my whole life. I'm not a coward. I have risked my life to rescue people more then once. Each time knowing that I was risking myself. So no.. I don't think that I am a coward. But I have also come very very close to killing myself.
You say that killing oneself is cowardly and selfish. I have already stated I don't think that I am a coward.
So I ask you.. how selfish are you being to expect me to live in the hell I experience constantly? Just how much hell should I have to put up with? I'm going to die some day anyways. So why is it so much worse that I choose when?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:03am PT
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So if I kill myself, that makes me a coward.
thanks dude. I appreciate the support.
Next time I see my friend who was a POW in Vietnam, I will tell him he will be a coward if he kills himself. 6 years in a POW camp. 57 surgeries to try and correct some of the damage done to him. Army Ranger with loads of medals, but if he kills himself because of the pain, then you would call him a coward.
Will you spit on his grave too?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:08am PT
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There is more then one kind of depression. Situational depression can often be treated with therapy.
There are other kinds of depression. If you are going to make blanket statements, then you should really learn more about depression. I have dealt with it my whole life. It isn't about my dog dying, or my girlfriend leaving me, or seeing and dealing with too much sh#t in this world. That kind of depression responds well to treatment, though the worse sh#t you have dealt with, the harder it can be. But its still different.
I have had 10 years worth of therapy. I have taken over 30 different meds. The last one, taken just last month, gave me 30 minutes of peace. For 30 minutes life felt like it was worth living, and it even felt easy. I recognize that feeling because I have had it a few times in my life. But only a few times. I could see why people want to live.
But 30 minutes was all that I got. the side affects were a worse kind of hell then the depression. I could give you a lesson in side affects.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:14am PT
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Typically spectacular conditions around the time of the incident
Aug 22 2011
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:24am PT
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Sounds to me John as if you are not willing to change and want to remain in that current state of mind.
Bullsh#t... You have no idea the lengths that I have gone to to try and overcome this.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:25am PT
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hey there say, all...
:(
i just saw the other thread and trip-report, from howie doin'
:(
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:28am PT
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Oh.. and I have built an orphanage in Mexico. I have done 1000s and 1000s of hours of volunteer work. You don't know what you are talking about. There are different kinds of depression that have nothing to do with situations.
I have had many great experiences, and have often looked at them and not been able to feel a thing, but despair.
You may think you know what that is like, but you also have the background of having years of normalcy. I haven't. So don't pretend you have any idea what my life has been like. You don't.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:31am PT
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hahaha.. I grew up going with my mother to old folks homes. I started a group to connect high schoolers with senior citizens. I worked 2 years with gang members, trying to help them. Don't try to tell me about volunteer work.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:32am PT
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fwiw-
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/23/BA6D1KR4T8.DTL&tsp=1
says here they currently assume it was accidental.
chief-
here's a hole for you to contemplate:
your own personal experience defines your perspective, in fact you rationalize and defend it here with your experiences, right?
so tell me-
why cannot another's personal experiences define their perspective?
so who is realyy being selfish?
are you able to contemplate that, or will you just react?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:34am PT
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my friend who was a POW. I spent many many days holding him as he went through the terrors. I helped him get work. I helped him keep his sanity. But all you want to do is call him a coward if he should kill himself in a moment of weakness.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:40am PT
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Who says I don't care? Caring is the only reason I haven't killed myself yet.
Now answer my question.
If its selfish for me to not consider my family and friends, then why isn't it selfish for my family and friends to put their needs above mine?
What gives anyone the right to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, drugged outta their mind, speed off at 100 mph and crash head on into another vehicle killing everyone inside. An entire totally innocent family at that.
No one has that right.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:45am PT
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I have thought about them. It is the only reason I am still alive.
Who thinks about me?
and you still haven't answered my question..
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 02:55am PT
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Really? You ever have direct dealings with a suicide situ that ended up in the deaths of innocent others?
You seem to be stuck on this issue Chief. No one on this thread has supported anyone putting anyone else at risk. That is a separate issue from whether it is okay to end ones life.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Aug 24, 2011 - 09:30am PT
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I would hope if John M. & The Chief were sitting across from each other a more empathic and helpful conversation would result. We are all dealt cards some are genenic some are situational so be kind, seek to understand.
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coastal_climber
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Aug 24, 2011 - 09:38am PT
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why can't you guys respect each others differences of opinion?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Aug 24, 2011 - 09:51am PT
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souls are subject to
the momentum of a thousand lifetimes.
our bodies can't deflect this spiritual inertia.
here and now ethics,
god-authored morals,
tears and smiles,
these are not accounted factors in our's souls passings.
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 24, 2011 - 10:08am PT
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We should all step back and recognize that what John and the Chief are going through (and many others). They seem to be working their own issues (PTSD, Depression, what ever you want to call it) out in this forum. This could be a good thing for the both of them. I prefer to see these exchanges in a positive light.
The circumstances of the incident are not yet known, but that is not so important to the discussion. Someone mentioned earlier that their opinions are based solely on their own perspectives and life experiences. That is so true, yet what better way for them to learn other perspectives then to have this dialogue .... as long as they are listening ... and that can be the toughest part when you are suffering.
Chief, I have way too much experience in this field and have seen the devastation of suicides, intentional or just plain choosing to drink and drive, Horrible stuff and I know only about John through his postings. An impressive guy. Let's keep talking and listening.
2cent worth
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Aug 24, 2011 - 10:13am PT
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Thank you Tanslacks, that was right on.
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