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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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in that section my hands and legs sink in so solidly there that I find it easier to keep things more restful than maintaining the arm bar as the crack narrows, and especially because I can give the hot spot on my bridging heel & toe a break and work different muscles.
Still early in my wyde-ucation, I've only ever managed to get up it with stacks. A couple of moves after I get a solid knee, the knee fits tightly enough that it seems hard to pull it up inside the crack but easier, with a stack, to pull it out and jam it in again up higher.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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WML: I'm sure that would help you a ton, especially on nice slick offwidths like the OW on Travelers Buttress. The OP on the SP thread should try that one out
;-)
Just did it yesterday. Most secure part of TB and the only part of that route I'd dare fall on! Not too bad, really, if you have your basic OW/Squeeze chimney technique down. If you look around, there are some holds inside you can use and a few jams for the last half that really make things easy. I don't think I ever needed to wrap my left leg outside of the OW either when climbing. I just burrowed in and wiggled up. Just as Bong's Away, Left is a good first 5.8 OW lead, I'd say this was a good first 5.9 OW lead.
My experience was as follows:
(warning - don't read this if you want to have more fun on the OW!)
1. Clip fixed nut on .10b finger crack to protect entry into OW. Backup fixed nut with Metolius #2 Master Cam if desired.
2. Side cling the .10b finger crack while stepping foot into bottom of OW. Swing into OW and establish an arm-bar with right arm to hold you in the crack as you let go of the finger crack. Step other foot into the OW, grab edge w/ left arm while grabbing nice hold inside with right arm. Pull on hold while stepping right leg deeper into the crack and stepping up fully. Shove your hips all the way inside and relax. You're know wedged in the OW :-)
3. Cam right leg in crack and chicken-wing with elbow high to worm up the crack, stepping left foot in onto a high hold. There is a knobby hold inside that can assist with a bit of an arm-bar too. Get your fat butt stuck again in the crack, and if desired, reach deep into the OW & place a BD #5 4CU. Take care not to get your helmet stuck.
4. Continue w/ chicken wing and right leg cam. Bridge with left foot now and ratched up a bit more. Reach deep in the OW & place a BD #4 4CU if desired. There are now constrictions inside narrow enough to jam.
5. Reach in deep and jam right fist. Do funny leg torquing inside OW to lever against the jam to swing up. Grab another jam. Place a BD #3 4CU if desired.
6. Grab another jam and lever up. Start pushing feet on outside edge of OW and begin reaching back over to the .10b finger crack to side-pull as the OW widens again. Place another BD #5 4CU to protect the exit from the OW to the widening left crack if desired. You're now free of the OW and ready to do about 100 ft of sustained glorious 5.8 crack!
Note: If climbing with a pack, don't trail it from a line attached to your harness on this OW. The overhanging nature of the start makes the pack pull you sideways out of the OW. A better (though more annoying) strategy, is to climb the OW and the crack beyond to a nice stance at a piton. Build an equalized anchor, clip into it, drop rope slack to haul any team packs to the anchor. Clip follower pack to piton, drop slack, and finish the climb!
Final Thought: I really sewed up the OW because it was my first 5.9 OW lead outside and the crack allowed for it. Even if you don't mind running it out some, putting in additional gear can help if the follower isn't as good at OW technique. They can then french free through it, as my partner did after giving up on the struggle.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nice thread.
Re: Churchbowl Terrace Chimney...
Peter - I have no idea. The rock is already either pretty smooth (no more flakes to rip off) or mossy (during the winter with water dripping down), so there weren't any obvious signs of people climbing it recently.
About two months ago, my first trip to Churchbowl area, I led the main Churchbowl Chimney, rapped down the Churchbowl Terrace Chimney, then decided to leave the rope up for a quick top-rope while waiting for the cool but busy handcrack to the right.
I definitely used everything available to get up it, but was way more plugged in than the pics above (I was heel-toe both feet as much of the way as possible, even when body overhanging). But my memory sucks, maybe I'm lying.
Edit: With no benefit of supertopo forums or peers/mentors, I first practiced offwidths in Santa Clara Planet Granite (now closed/moved to Sunnyvale), and what I worked out was that armbars were the way to make upward progress, and when my strength ebbed, I would throw in the second hand for a handstack to rest, without leaving the armbar position, and then relinquish the handstack when it was time to move on. I did find the straight-in handstack to be a dead end to upward progress when the feet/knees couldn't support the full body weight.
On pure vertical/straight offwidths, I like to shimmy up handstacks as a fast way to climb using less energy than armbars. I've never climbed a natural crack that lent itself to this style, but I haven't been to most climbing places (including Indian Creek). Even if it does work nicely on top-rope, having to placing gear reveals the problem with this technique.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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I definitely used everything available to get up it, but was way more plugged in than the pics above (I was heel-toe both feet as much of the way as possible, even when body overhanging).
Next time I'll have to squeeze deeper in to utilize the jams and try heel-toeing more. I've been surprised to see how my body will crumple into a stable position in a crack in cases where I'd swear I'd slide out. Always fun to experiment!
Thanks for the learnings about resting with arm-bars as well. That's been a major problem for me with intense arm bars.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Interesting read. Good analysis by Peter, Scuffy, and Jaybro. I concur with Peter, for the most part. There are at least certain sizes, however, where stacking or armbarring will accomplish the goal, but stacking is easier. A climb that comes to mind for me is Road Warrior (5.10d), near Mt. Evans, CO. I think I've done it 5 or 6 times. It wasn't until the 4th time that I even thought to stack, and it felt 2 letter grades easier. It was just one of those sizes in which you could make really big moves. Still, 95% of OW for me, is armbarring.
Glad you thought Worm Drive is harder than .11b, Jaybro. I think it's harder than Big Pink. Big Pink, by the way, reminds me a lot of Air Voyage - and it's probably as hard.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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A little known fact about the Steck-Salathe FA.
Before the boys went up the route, they had honed their OW skills on the wall that they built that the PG wall is a replica of...
So, all you need to do is get good enough to spend about 5 minutes on that "OW" and you should be able to topple any of the hardest pitches of the S-S.
Go for it.
What ever you do... don't listen to the ney-sayers... It might seem like they know what they are talking about, but that's only because they've played it safe, and worked hard at getting good. And though they may have a vast amount of superior techniques, they will tell you that this is only due to climbing outside and on a lot of different OW routes.
I have spoken to at least one of them, and that one told me "everything I learned I got from the gym in SF"... so...
for what its worth...
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Dude, it's gold boullion---"2:1 pulley system". Looks like they had a blast, though, and the psyche is so palpable, you can feel it.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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2 packs - a bit on the bulky side, but we wanted to have food, water & rain jackets for a full day of climbing. Not at all necessary if weather is stable and you're not trying to cram a lot of climbing into one day. It was a hot summer day with thunderstorms in the forecast, and we climbed Surrealistic Pillar on our way to TB and planned to do more on the E Wall. Nicer to just carry the entire day's worth of crap with you than to go back to the TH to refill water (like we did on day 1 after we ran out of 3 liters total) or worry about getting cold & wet if the thunderstorms did strike.
Plus, I've found climbing with a backpack is good for building character for alpine fun. On the last two alpine trad routes I climbed this month I never even noticed the pack :-)
Trench Warfare is awesome! One of these days when I'm visiting SLC again I need to go over to the Superslab area and stare at it in awe :-)
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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I flew up the hard OW clean last night for my first time (wee!). Because of how the hard one flares, for the final section before exiting I did a butterfuly hand stack twice to help pull up until I could reach the fist jams, but I kept my body inside the crack, so I basically did the whole thing as left-side in.
I also tried doing the easy OW w/o hand stacks, but as I moved higher I eventually encountered a problem where the crack was too narrow to slide my thigh up. I could inchworm a few more moves higher by leaning out to have a skinnier part of my leg remaining in the crack to slide up and the shoving the leg back in, but it seemed like pretty soon I'd be losing the arm-bar hold if I moved out any further to move my leg up. So I relented and left the right-side-in position to face into the crack with hand stacks and thigh jams for the last body-length.
A question for the OW gurus that were talking about moving into the hand stacks: Would this be an 'appropriate' time to do this? Or would you still suggested staying with one side in? If so, how would you stay with one side in at this width?
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 12, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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What you describe sounds reasonable. I probably have smaller knees than you. I pull my knee out, step up and reinsert it but only need to do this a few times, then I can cruise a bit more until I get a hand jam. Stacking lets you make higher steps, and may reduce the number of harder moves. I'm sure I fall into an overly dogmatic attitude. If you're going to lose your arm bar and fall out, it sounds like switching to stacks is pretty sensible at that point.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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Thanks for the feedback! I don't want to develop bad habits of switching too early to a technique that might hurt me in the long run (runaway stacks), but I can only persevere so much with the arm bar as the crack starts to close up around my shoulder :-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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When I did it first time I went straight to a fist, but about half the time I'll do a stack before the end.
Was there yesterday, didn't do it all but I did do a bunch of the thinner cracks Sans tape -ouch!
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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ouch! Building up the hand calluses for J-Tree?
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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I was at the SE Base of El Cap last Saturday to do a practice aid pitch on P1 of Pacific Ocean Wall. Since the climb was occupied when Eddy & I got there, we passed the time by climbing The Gollum. I led the Gollum, Right (a nice, awkward & physical 5.8 with some merciful rests) and set up a TR on Gollum, Left (5.10a) with some directionals. The overhanging OW looked like quite a challenge!
Gollum, Left, was a great climb, with wide to thin crack climbing, stemming, and a memorable overhanging OW roof that is very physical and committing. However, the climb seems to be well protected. You could place a #5 or #6 in there as you first reach it, and then adjust it as you move up and around the edge & into the squeeze.
Here is some more info, with Gary climbing into the roof much more elegantly.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
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Wyde 101
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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Reilly, I climbed that online in less than eight seconds.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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All righty, then yer ready for 102.
This 'un shud take you at least a minute or two...
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