Discussion Topic |
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
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No, by all accounts...
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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Yep ...
That's how to do it.
You just watch this video and you'll be able to float any off-width in the country .....
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 19, 2011 - 11:16pm PT
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I know we're dissing the question, but I thought it was a pretty darn good for an online video compared to say:
http://www.todaysbigthing.com/2011/03/28
I've heard about that crack at PG, but 5.9????
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213
climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
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Jun 20, 2011 - 01:29am PT
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I say go to the Valley and work through the Hardman OW circuit. I can't imagine how climbing a 20' tall gym 5.9 (so in reality 5.7+) wide crack could possibly prepare you for the fun you will encounter on the Sentinel...you may as well read a book and expect to do it c2c in 6hrs!
good luck!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 20, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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No wonder OW is so damn hard--You have to listen to Blood Metal to be able to crank that stuff. I guess that's the real secret.
In the SummitPost post, the OP says, "It nicely shows some of the techniques needed for such climbing."
This much is true, it does show some of the techniques that you might use in wide cracks. I think there's good shots of the footwork. Crazy hand-stacking. And watch that tape job!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 20, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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I've wasted so much time; I'm in!
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 20, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
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I'll bet lots of people who can succeed on SS couldn't do 40 clean laps on the PGSF wide cracks in a whole day if you paid them $1000.
If you can cruise the PGSF wide all day long (throw in some of the fist pitches to shake it up), and you've done all-day 5.8/5.9 climbs outside, I'd bet on SS success. Or at least a good story with pics for us.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 20, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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Both sides of the OW at that gym are harder than anything on the SS. But it is 1,760 feet shorter than the SS, which might have some bearing on the question.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jun 20, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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Is that why there weren't any good OW climbers before Youtube?
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Dave Davis
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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As far as I can remember(and that was quite some time ago) there really isn't any offwidth climbing on the Steck Salathe. Lots of chimneys and hand cracks, but I thought by definition an offwidth is bigger than a fist and too small to get into. One would do better to practice on a few flares where its usually easier, but a bit more unnerving to climb on the outside rather than burrow in the back.
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 29, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
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There is almost no ow climbing in SS. Most of the hard pitches is chimney and flares.
The best training for SS is to watch as many as you can online movies for climbing chimneys and flares
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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I filmed a few laps on two different occasions. The first time I brought a camera to film a bit to better see my technique (it's kind of hard to really know what you're doing with your own legs since you can't see them - just climbing by feel).
Then I got carried away with ideas from that and brought the camera back later to get some other angles that would show things better (e.g. the hand stacks from above). I intend to add more descriptions of what I'm doing in those video links later.
The version with the music really was meant to be a joke. Note the hyperbole & Monty Python references :-D
Regarding the OW rating, none of the employees at that gym have ever been able to tell me what it is 'supposed' to be. It used to seem really hard, but once the technique 'clicked' for me and I did a few OWs outside (e.g. Generator twice) I decided 5.9 is a fair rating if you have the basic techniques down since all the moves are secure and you can rest anywhere in it and even downclimb it without too much problem. It's a bit easier than Bongs Away, Center (5.10a), and I can do laps on it, change directions mid-height, and climb it facing left-side in. Climbing on the other side of the opening is much harder but not as hard as Generator Crack (so maybe that side is 5.10b?).
Coming from someone just starting to get into the wide, I'd say the crack is good practice, but limited in techniques - even the harder side does little to test you on flares. Speaking of which, has anyone done the 5.8 Churchbowl Terrace chimney? Now that's a fun flare! Can anyone tell me how that relates to the nature of SS?
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
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Those are pretty cool videos.
They show things pretty well.
Regarding your original intent, I would bet that what you saw was awfully
close to what you felt.
Myself, I like to keep going with armbars on that crack, never messing
around with the stacks, but it's interesting to see the variation in
preferences.
This crack is the real deal, so to speak, there are plenty of 5.9 wide
cracks on rock that are easier than this.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jun 30, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
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by the way, the segment near the end of the joke video with the other guy blasting up the crack - he is climbing the hard side, which has a slight outward flare that spits you out. I found resting in that side is easier if you turn slightly sideways to better jam your feet deeper into the flare.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Often I see handstacks being done when all they do is return you to the old regressive point of view of facing the rock and hanging off of it largely disconnected from it---as you more or less do in face climbing and as is more intuitive and natural for people. Meanwhile you lose valuable connection.... I think many are getting confused and attracted by the idea of stacks too as if they were some panacea; they actually are rarely used outdoors on lead to the best effect and are really about special problem solving. As Scuffy says, it is usually much more important to maintain rhythm, form and a deeper one-sided position; stacks also require a knee or thigh lock or no overhanging conditions to the crack in order for you to advance----and if you can get a knee or even a thigh in there like that, you actually don't have much of a problem in front of you. I rarely found them to be a smart idea, especially on lead. Most offwidths are overhanging too.
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cms
climber
toyota, tacoma
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youre f^@&ing trolling me right??
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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man, think of the gas money I could have saved....
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Oh, Peter, I think stacking is more useful and versatile than you realize.
Surely, I see stacking done in instances where it is not the most efficient
move, but there are plenty of times where a good knee combined with a good
stack can make a stretch of crack go more quickly and easily, even on
overhanging sections.
I think that to a large part our tendencies are a matter of habit. I did
most of my learning in corners and before I knew about stacking, and I
really grooved my stroke through a lot of repetition. So, I think of
armbars as the norm and stacks as special.
Many folks simply have the opposite perspective.
That said, I do think, in agreement with you, that stacking is often over
used.
I'm big on rules of thumb (they're made to be broken) and here's one that I
like: Stacks are most suited to straight in cracks, armbars are most suited
to corners. Everyone should be well versed in both in order to know why
an exception might be made.
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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That does look like a really cool crack, Jaybro.
(as if that's a crack to learn on, lol)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dood, shouldn't the appropriate paraphrase be: "just when I thought I was in - it pushed me out!"
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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5.8 Churchbowl Terrace chimney
Great gear if I remember, Hand jams in the back..
Probably soft for the grade, since I scraped up it.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Scuff,
Interesting issue to discuss, certainly. As our very own Werner has stated repeatedly, offwidth climbing is the hardest form and is the least intuitive.
I would also point out that if you can get a knee in and even get a thigh in, you don’t really have a problem--- go make of it what thou shalt. Rather I am dealing here with real cruxes.
Stacking is seductive to climbers and brings them back to their mundane ways of thinking--- hanging off their hands and failing to establish one’s network of counterforces that is critical to upper level wide leading; it also brings them out of the extremely useful planes of the rock (as you say especially obvious in dihedrals too) and gets them inchworming instead in a fist-jamming plus knee-lock manner “in front of the rock”. I stacked hands all the way back to the sixties Steve---this is not some secret of the Universe just recently grasped---- and as you know I did all the hard wide leads up to 1976. But during those leads I only rarely stacked and only in a modified, brief problem-solving half-move only or something similar that is not really to cause you to leave those important rock planes that are actually your big friends in the situation, namely not to leave the counterforce scheme, and not to leave the offwidth posture and contract.
We also have the issue of energy conservation to consider here. Quite often one can get pretty reasonable semi-rests while classically installed in tough offwidths; to be outside instead doing the inchworm thing is more exhausting---you’re fist-jamming now sort of and if it is not very tiring to be stacking and you have these giant knee locks, as I said, you don’t have a problem.
With the motive of passing on my offwidth knowledge to a bunch of people here on ST, I am trying to keep the issues clear and warn those learning off of any fantasy cure-alls and try to keep the importance of classic counterforce climbing clear and in the forefront, however difficult and unintuitive it is. Rather than shunting off into tangential ideas and apocrypha, they must address this whole “wide” segment of climbing at its core. It also has further payoffs when you get into severe stemming problems also, by the way, as you try to equalize, lock, and progress when you are stemming in a 4-dimensional isometric hell where only a certain sequence of these often huge body forces will allow you to climb. And as always,--back to offwidth---doing loads and loads of wide is essential. Not five or ten---no, many dozens of them at all difficulties, not just super hard ones, and not loads of artificial ones either. This all for establishing as you say, the “stroke” and getting your chops and a huge and major core down so you are out of your own way. And of course it is necessary to keep up your “stroke”, as you will lose a good part of it through disuse. And you have to have supreme cardio--- no way around it. Don't expect to be pleased with your experiences here if you are not pretty amazing for P&R.
Familiar examples: For me the crux on the Twilight Zone was actually a real offwidth where my knee soon could not go in just as the dihedral began to overhang considerably; but because the crack had tightened down I then could get weak fist jams way deep in it at about 4”, maybe lightly less but modified ones with armbar as part of their value. Meanwhile I still maintained the strict offwidth posture, left side way in, left knee begging to get in and its foot doing foot jams that were also trying to get stuck while meanwhile the right foot was finding all those edges out on the dihedral face that cap the crux off at only 5.10D. The right hand was gobbling up the wonderful crack edge in a classical raised elbow almost chickenwing manner, but interestingly sometimes actually it was also taking a brief fist jam or two that could cope with the existing sequence plan and these with the right arm were done overhead in conjunction with the left arm but not in a stack---namely I remember reaching over my head with my right hand to briefly fist jam over my head as I would make some of those overhanging moves. Without that pile of big edges out there for the right foot, that lead turns to 5.11a in my view. There actually are poor souls that have gotten tunnel vision here and just gunned the sucker and did not even see the holds out there. Oh and there are features inside the crack but not really big ones.
Now if a tinier climber was up there---certainly not able to fist jam those 15 feet or so before it backs off---I think his lead is harder but to stack there means you ain’t got no arm bar, your back against the main wall is not happening or is at least bitchy, flakey and not powerfully useful and the vertical edges on the right are useless without that back to oppose them...and how would this climber---now quite overhung---get to move his hands up when he can’t get a knee or thigh in? So the smaller climber is best to keep---along with everyone else---the classic offwidth position and armbar it and mack on the footholds---after all the crack edge is incredibly good and you don’t have too terribly far to go; you can even see where it lets up.
There are other examples. Left side of the Slack is too wide to fist I remember and is overhanging in the crux. Mostly your knee is going in and the edge is excellent and has variety. The main wall is not terrifically steep as I recall. It is more a left side of Reed’s with a little more angle and a little longer. The left arm bar and left foot are critical here and that right hand on the edge that can create little ‘stations’ too. Stacking here would be ludicrous and it is not clear to me how you would repeatedly move up if you got your two hands stuck together.
Basketcase crux was quite overhanging in the part up to the crux. It’s left side in. You get your knee in at first and soon that starts to lose out and fists are kind of available but also peter out as it widens again just below the business section. By this point you are not too overhanging above you, just your lower body. You have gone maybe forty feet from the belayer. The crack loses its wonderful edge to a fat 45 degree edgeless facet that is all you get for 5 feet while inside the crack there is absolutely no feature whatsoever. Nor on the main wall, nor on the dihedral face. It is amazingly smooth, like a bathtub. You also can’t see it from below. Here because your lower body wants to dangle while you fight that exact tendency and at your chest there is nothing but the purest armbar with the left and nothing positive but the facet for the right while your back does lie against the main wall, the crux continues for perhaps five feet to suddenly end in a huge pod. If you were to stack hands in the crux while your knee was not able to insert, you would be simply trapped by your own invention. Plus I highly highly doubt you could even initiate a stack it is that hard there, that smooth, that unfavorable in almost all respects.
So there are three much-fabled offwidths and stacking does not serve as important solutions in any of them. Stacking is only one of the tools to use; it is not smart to throw the counterforce scheme away to hang on your arms just because you can for a move. Rather, just include stacking along with all the little foot tricks you have: the inverted elbows, knee and thigh locks, various ways of pivoting and moving upwards---if only for a 1/2” at a time---that avoid what otherwise would be impossible friction, specially trained hip and butt movements that just have to be learned in place.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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I'm sure that would help you a ton, especially on nice slick offwidths like the OW on Travelers Buttress. The OP on the SP thread should try that one out
On the list for this month. I'm looking forward to it!
And thanks for the learnin', Pete. I'm all ears on what the gurus have to say on the wyde technique :-P~
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Applause to you all who've taken a sneering troll OP and turned it into a fascinating thread.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Roger on that Murcy. Definitely.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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5.8 Churchbowl Terrace chimney
Great gear if I remember, Hand jams in the back..
Probably soft for the grade, since I scraped up it.
The back crack was wet when I climbed it, and since we had a TR set up it seemed like a nice challenge to climb straight up the chimney flare without using the hand jam. It wasn't too bad until the front-face steepened up and got a little wet, but that just forced you to learn to use your inside leg more. :-D
That crack, though awkward to reach, provides bomber pro all the way up so perhaps this route would be a good & safe way to practice leading such chimneys? (i.e. hard flares but bomber pro).
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Good on you Pellucid! That is a really pretty pitch isn't it. Highly recommended. Is it done often these days?
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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aww, pictures are fun. Despite not even being included as a route in the SuperTopo guide, I actually liked this chimney a lot more than Churchbowl Chimney
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Peter - I have no idea. The rock is already either pretty smooth (no more flakes to rip off) or mossy (during the winter with water dripping down), so there weren't any obvious signs of people climbing it recently.
Since I had just barely led Churchbowl Chimney before TRing this one after the rappel (highly recommended. Clean on my first try, but battered & bruised in the shoulders & knee caps - owwwww), I felt humbled before the twisted beast that real Valley chimney climbing can be. With the legwork required, I also really understood the concept of offset cams THAT much better! I did less stemming than Vitaly and attempted to let my hips, knees, & feet cam more naturally into the flare rather than trying to hold a stemming position, but still splayed between the legs to fight that outward flare.
Thinking about the easy pro, though, now that I'm more open to pushing my leading comfort zone, I want to go back once the Valley has cooled off and lead the thing, but without jamming the inside/pro crack.
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426
climber
☬
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//I'm sure that would help you a ton, especially on nice slick offwidths like the OW on Travelers Buttress. The OP on the SP thread should try that one out
I groveled, groaned, and cried for about 5 minutes, then gave up the lead to my partner and had to pull on gear to follow.
Yikes.
Wiped out after that route; pretty much off the couch, though.//
Another nice un at the Lover's is the P. Haan variation to the North Face. Expect spiderwebs and some crumbles; felt about the same as Traveler's to me, but climbs different....very cool position too.
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Cheers, Peter.
At this point I've only made my first reading of your post, so things haven't really sunk in yet.
I'll say more about the videos, though, on the subject of arm bar vs.
stacking.
I have watched a lot of people in that crack, and I've climbed it a lot.
I've never used a stack in it. My attitude is always "why bother?"
The progress is so easy with the armbars there's no reason to stop until
the first fist jam.
This applies to the video. He is just strolling the lower part, but is eager
to switch techniques as soon as he can get a good hand/fist stack. Because
it's been so hard and he needs something easier? Please. He makes the
armbar moves look almost trivial. Does he make the stacking section look
easier?
It's really common to see this.
If it looked like the stacking reduced the difficulty I'd be all over
making the change, but most people make it look like getting that first
stack to work is the crux.
I say (in this particular case) at least think about staying with the moves
that got you there.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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That's pretty much what I am saying as well, Steve-Scuffy. Exactly.
We see the tendency to leave when ever possible, real offwidth-think and get back to hanging off the arms, beginner-style. And thus my highly detailed emphasis on trying to really get people to think offwidth. If they don't, they won't be able to climb the harder ones.
Quite often, remaining in an offwidth position is basically a rest when it would be a lot of pulling down were you to be stacking, so 'why bother' yes.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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I say (in this particular case) at least think about staying with the moves
that got you there.
As my friend says about fishing: "you don't leave fish to go find fish."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Over The years i do a lot of things differently that I used to. I used to be convinced that there was no reason to employ stacks until 5.12, that stacking on a ten or eleven was poor technique. Thus I considered Bad Ass Momma to be five twelve. But then came Mother Superior, clearly not five twelve... hmmm....
These days I throw the odd stack in all over the places. A lot of time it's a better rest.
Watching Pam do the right tube changed my approach to that one. Instead of the deep fists i used to climb it on 1980 I saw that there is a weird chicken wing right at the lip. That followed by the fist from hell is my current technique.
Scuffy, that photo is Wormdrive, you should do it when you come out in August. .11b in the book, it felt a whole number grade harder to me. I want to see what you think.
No inversion necessary
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern California
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That is a great perspective to look from Jaybro.Much respect!
Its all relevant to a degree,but OW/Cracks are so much fun because it is all size dependent and differentiates from each persons size.What works for one person might not work for another person and change the grade entirely.One person might cruise through with chicken wings and stacks,when someone else might struggle with fists or vice versa.The never ending limitations of imagination with ow/crack is amazing.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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For my personal experience climbing in that crack, I move to hand stacks because for the width in that section my hands and legs sink in so solidly there that I find it easier to keep things more restful than maintaining the arm bar as the crack narrows, and especially because I can give the hot spot on my bridging heel & toe a break and work different muscles.
However, if the crack changed to where I couldn't stack anymore, I can see how it would be really awkward to get back into sticking one side of your body into the crack. So I think I get what you're saying about staying with the position that got you there, especially if you don't know how the crack will change higher up! Plus, I have noticed that when I downclimb the crack, I just go right from jamming in the bombay to facing right-side in instead of attempting to downclimb with hand stacks.
So I think using hand stacking probably commits you more to only moving in one direction (up) as well as committing you more to facing in to the crack?
Great discussion!
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Thanks for the post, I was just thinking about it.
I may be coming off a little more preachy than I ought.
I've been meaning to ask (and forgetting to) whether you actually
find it to be easier when you switch to stacks, and here you are with
a cogent response to my unasked question.
I'll say, though, (am I repeating myself?) that most people don't actually
make it look like the stacking is easier, though they seem relieved when
they make the switch.
Stacks can, for sure, let you make longer moves, and at times that can
allow you to skip a short crux (what would be a crux in armbars). Like if
you have to pull a knee out for one or two moves, stacking might let you
stay on solid knee jams the whole way.
What you say about downclimbing is right. It's possible to downclimb at
really high speeds using armbars, at least in an offset, with little effort
and good security.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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in that section my hands and legs sink in so solidly there that I find it easier to keep things more restful than maintaining the arm bar as the crack narrows, and especially because I can give the hot spot on my bridging heel & toe a break and work different muscles.
Still early in my wyde-ucation, I've only ever managed to get up it with stacks. A couple of moves after I get a solid knee, the knee fits tightly enough that it seems hard to pull it up inside the crack but easier, with a stack, to pull it out and jam it in again up higher.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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WML: I'm sure that would help you a ton, especially on nice slick offwidths like the OW on Travelers Buttress. The OP on the SP thread should try that one out
;-)
Just did it yesterday. Most secure part of TB and the only part of that route I'd dare fall on! Not too bad, really, if you have your basic OW/Squeeze chimney technique down. If you look around, there are some holds inside you can use and a few jams for the last half that really make things easy. I don't think I ever needed to wrap my left leg outside of the OW either when climbing. I just burrowed in and wiggled up. Just as Bong's Away, Left is a good first 5.8 OW lead, I'd say this was a good first 5.9 OW lead.
My experience was as follows:
(warning - don't read this if you want to have more fun on the OW!)
1. Clip fixed nut on .10b finger crack to protect entry into OW. Backup fixed nut with Metolius #2 Master Cam if desired.
2. Side cling the .10b finger crack while stepping foot into bottom of OW. Swing into OW and establish an arm-bar with right arm to hold you in the crack as you let go of the finger crack. Step other foot into the OW, grab edge w/ left arm while grabbing nice hold inside with right arm. Pull on hold while stepping right leg deeper into the crack and stepping up fully. Shove your hips all the way inside and relax. You're know wedged in the OW :-)
3. Cam right leg in crack and chicken-wing with elbow high to worm up the crack, stepping left foot in onto a high hold. There is a knobby hold inside that can assist with a bit of an arm-bar too. Get your fat butt stuck again in the crack, and if desired, reach deep into the OW & place a BD #5 4CU. Take care not to get your helmet stuck.
4. Continue w/ chicken wing and right leg cam. Bridge with left foot now and ratched up a bit more. Reach deep in the OW & place a BD #4 4CU if desired. There are now constrictions inside narrow enough to jam.
5. Reach in deep and jam right fist. Do funny leg torquing inside OW to lever against the jam to swing up. Grab another jam. Place a BD #3 4CU if desired.
6. Grab another jam and lever up. Start pushing feet on outside edge of OW and begin reaching back over to the .10b finger crack to side-pull as the OW widens again. Place another BD #5 4CU to protect the exit from the OW to the widening left crack if desired. You're now free of the OW and ready to do about 100 ft of sustained glorious 5.8 crack!
Note: If climbing with a pack, don't trail it from a line attached to your harness on this OW. The overhanging nature of the start makes the pack pull you sideways out of the OW. A better (though more annoying) strategy, is to climb the OW and the crack beyond to a nice stance at a piton. Build an equalized anchor, clip into it, drop rope slack to haul any team packs to the anchor. Clip follower pack to piton, drop slack, and finish the climb!
Final Thought: I really sewed up the OW because it was my first 5.9 OW lead outside and the crack allowed for it. Even if you don't mind running it out some, putting in additional gear can help if the follower isn't as good at OW technique. They can then french free through it, as my partner did after giving up on the struggle.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nice thread.
Re: Churchbowl Terrace Chimney...
Peter - I have no idea. The rock is already either pretty smooth (no more flakes to rip off) or mossy (during the winter with water dripping down), so there weren't any obvious signs of people climbing it recently.
About two months ago, my first trip to Churchbowl area, I led the main Churchbowl Chimney, rapped down the Churchbowl Terrace Chimney, then decided to leave the rope up for a quick top-rope while waiting for the cool but busy handcrack to the right.
I definitely used everything available to get up it, but was way more plugged in than the pics above (I was heel-toe both feet as much of the way as possible, even when body overhanging). But my memory sucks, maybe I'm lying.
Edit: With no benefit of supertopo forums or peers/mentors, I first practiced offwidths in Santa Clara Planet Granite (now closed/moved to Sunnyvale), and what I worked out was that armbars were the way to make upward progress, and when my strength ebbed, I would throw in the second hand for a handstack to rest, without leaving the armbar position, and then relinquish the handstack when it was time to move on. I did find the straight-in handstack to be a dead end to upward progress when the feet/knees couldn't support the full body weight.
On pure vertical/straight offwidths, I like to shimmy up handstacks as a fast way to climb using less energy than armbars. I've never climbed a natural crack that lent itself to this style, but I haven't been to most climbing places (including Indian Creek). Even if it does work nicely on top-rope, having to placing gear reveals the problem with this technique.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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I definitely used everything available to get up it, but was way more plugged in than the pics above (I was heel-toe both feet as much of the way as possible, even when body overhanging).
Next time I'll have to squeeze deeper in to utilize the jams and try heel-toeing more. I've been surprised to see how my body will crumple into a stable position in a crack in cases where I'd swear I'd slide out. Always fun to experiment!
Thanks for the learnings about resting with arm-bars as well. That's been a major problem for me with intense arm bars.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Interesting read. Good analysis by Peter, Scuffy, and Jaybro. I concur with Peter, for the most part. There are at least certain sizes, however, where stacking or armbarring will accomplish the goal, but stacking is easier. A climb that comes to mind for me is Road Warrior (5.10d), near Mt. Evans, CO. I think I've done it 5 or 6 times. It wasn't until the 4th time that I even thought to stack, and it felt 2 letter grades easier. It was just one of those sizes in which you could make really big moves. Still, 95% of OW for me, is armbarring.
Glad you thought Worm Drive is harder than .11b, Jaybro. I think it's harder than Big Pink. Big Pink, by the way, reminds me a lot of Air Voyage - and it's probably as hard.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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A little known fact about the Steck-Salathe FA.
Before the boys went up the route, they had honed their OW skills on the wall that they built that the PG wall is a replica of...
So, all you need to do is get good enough to spend about 5 minutes on that "OW" and you should be able to topple any of the hardest pitches of the S-S.
Go for it.
What ever you do... don't listen to the ney-sayers... It might seem like they know what they are talking about, but that's only because they've played it safe, and worked hard at getting good. And though they may have a vast amount of superior techniques, they will tell you that this is only due to climbing outside and on a lot of different OW routes.
I have spoken to at least one of them, and that one told me "everything I learned I got from the gym in SF"... so...
for what its worth...
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Dude, it's gold boullion---"2:1 pulley system". Looks like they had a blast, though, and the psyche is so palpable, you can feel it.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Aug 17, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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2 packs - a bit on the bulky side, but we wanted to have food, water & rain jackets for a full day of climbing. Not at all necessary if weather is stable and you're not trying to cram a lot of climbing into one day. It was a hot summer day with thunderstorms in the forecast, and we climbed Surrealistic Pillar on our way to TB and planned to do more on the E Wall. Nicer to just carry the entire day's worth of crap with you than to go back to the TH to refill water (like we did on day 1 after we ran out of 3 liters total) or worry about getting cold & wet if the thunderstorms did strike.
Plus, I've found climbing with a backpack is good for building character for alpine fun. On the last two alpine trad routes I climbed this month I never even noticed the pack :-)
Trench Warfare is awesome! One of these days when I'm visiting SLC again I need to go over to the Superslab area and stare at it in awe :-)
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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I flew up the hard OW clean last night for my first time (wee!). Because of how the hard one flares, for the final section before exiting I did a butterfuly hand stack twice to help pull up until I could reach the fist jams, but I kept my body inside the crack, so I basically did the whole thing as left-side in.
I also tried doing the easy OW w/o hand stacks, but as I moved higher I eventually encountered a problem where the crack was too narrow to slide my thigh up. I could inchworm a few more moves higher by leaning out to have a skinnier part of my leg remaining in the crack to slide up and the shoving the leg back in, but it seemed like pretty soon I'd be losing the arm-bar hold if I moved out any further to move my leg up. So I relented and left the right-side-in position to face into the crack with hand stacks and thigh jams for the last body-length.
A question for the OW gurus that were talking about moving into the hand stacks: Would this be an 'appropriate' time to do this? Or would you still suggested staying with one side in? If so, how would you stay with one side in at this width?
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 12, 2011 - 04:51pm PT
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What you describe sounds reasonable. I probably have smaller knees than you. I pull my knee out, step up and reinsert it but only need to do this a few times, then I can cruise a bit more until I get a hand jam. Stacking lets you make higher steps, and may reduce the number of harder moves. I'm sure I fall into an overly dogmatic attitude. If you're going to lose your arm bar and fall out, it sounds like switching to stacks is pretty sensible at that point.
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
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Thanks for the feedback! I don't want to develop bad habits of switching too early to a technique that might hurt me in the long run (runaway stacks), but I can only persevere so much with the arm bar as the crack starts to close up around my shoulder :-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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When I did it first time I went straight to a fist, but about half the time I'll do a stack before the end.
Was there yesterday, didn't do it all but I did do a bunch of the thinner cracks Sans tape -ouch!
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 12, 2011 - 05:33pm PT
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ouch! Building up the hand calluses for J-Tree?
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
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I was at the SE Base of El Cap last Saturday to do a practice aid pitch on P1 of Pacific Ocean Wall. Since the climb was occupied when Eddy & I got there, we passed the time by climbing The Gollum. I led the Gollum, Right (a nice, awkward & physical 5.8 with some merciful rests) and set up a TR on Gollum, Left (5.10a) with some directionals. The overhanging OW looked like quite a challenge!
Gollum, Left, was a great climb, with wide to thin crack climbing, stemming, and a memorable overhanging OW roof that is very physical and committing. However, the climb seems to be well protected. You could place a #5 or #6 in there as you first reach it, and then adjust it as you move up and around the edge & into the squeeze.
Here is some more info, with Gary climbing into the roof much more elegantly.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
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Wyde 101
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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Reilly, I climbed that online in less than eight seconds.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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All righty, then yer ready for 102.
This 'un shud take you at least a minute or two...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 20, 2011 - 08:40pm PT
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wyde slab
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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Jaybro, thanks for the link! It's interesting to see how the climb can be done in different ways. I'll have to go back & try it differently for comparison.
I almost started the lower portion left-side with full-on chickenwings & arm-bars like it appears Gary did, but the subtleties of the crack width, slope, and features on the left wall suggested that right-side in might be easier. I was able to stand on relaxed on foot bridging the entire time, and just grabbed crimpers on the face with my hands to ratchet up.
I entered the roof crack similar to Ed's description, but for whatever reason, once I was deep into it, stacking just seemed easier for my spaghetti arms than maintaining an arm-bar & gaston, as when I got gassed I could just hang on my hands to rest. It was easy enough to let go occasionally arm bar & grab features as they came within reach.
The climb was surprisingly clean and interesting. Just like Bongs Away, Center (a much easier 5.10a OW, IMO), this seems to be a stellar route that gets little attention.
The right side was pretty fun too, though I was caught off-guard with how burly it was, and being sweaty slick from the heat didn't help. I tried some silly strategies where I would climb the cracks until they got too wide to jam, threw in a #4 way up there, and then downclimbed to get into a lieback position and climbed the crack as a lieback. No need then to place pro on those liebacks!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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PellucidWombat
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 20, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
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Zanderland Wide Session November 2011 was really fun
360s and other fun in the Steck-Salathe simulator:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ral5IJUAMU4
Next time I'm there maybe I can talk someone into a 360s spin contest? Would be a great workout!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 20, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
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Hoh man I been missing the fun!
Narrower flairing goodness at BIW today, followed by pity beers....
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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Wyde wednesday style bump
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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That looks great. Do you know where it is?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I wanna know too
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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if you go to the youtube page, they say Tahoe...tag says sugar pine
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Aydam
Sport climber
Los Angeles, California
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Best way to get better at climbing? Go outside and climb!
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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because you're doing it wrong Jay
Just the "UX9cajco3tE" all that other stuff is not needed
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I found a REALLLLLLY cool looking OW (if there is such a thing) in Tahoe, up Eagle creek, just past the lake. Looks really 'fun' I will try it out when the summer comes around.
1) Last weekend I tried to TR generator...complete failure
2) Finally was able to do squeeze chimney/OW in PG sunnvale without hangs...got better with foot stacks.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Yes, Tom, I saw the Tahoe and Sugar Pine. I still want to know where it is.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Hey, Thanks, maybe I'll have to make it to Tahoe one of these years.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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There is sugar pine point on the west shore, just north, I believe, of D.L. Bliss state park which has a lot of bouldering in terrain that looks similar to that video. Not familiar with that problem, though.
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