Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mimi
climber
|
|
The more I learn about this topic, the more I realize there is very little field info available for accurate decision/policy making. Everyone is so spooked by the ESA that a very conservative strategy has been adopted. Like was pointed out above, with a growing falcon population, one would expect additional nesting sites which would then lead to even broader closures. That should rase concern for the community.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
When i used to go to nests up on El Cap tree to steal their eggs they never got excited until I was about 20 feet away.
Then they would attack full force.
Then when chicks hatched I'd go back to nest and put them in there and the same thing attack as I entered the 20 foot zone.
The chicks were cool.
As I put them in the nest and turn around they'd climb out and start following me thinking I'm their mother or something.
I finally figured out to face them to the wall and book it out of there as fast as possible.
Then the mother would swoop in and spread it's wings and push em back into the nest.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
I remember when you were doing that Werner. So very very cool.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
One inherent problem in ESA listed species research is the limited numbers available to study in the first place. You end up with very small sample sizes which can be problematic in any study.
We are currently studying a state listed SSC on our site, and even at that level there is not a lot of existing studies, and USFWS doesn't really have the means to finance or manpower to conduct studies.
It's also important to remember, even without an ESA listing, or state listing, Peregrines (and most other birds) are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act which prohibits "take" of the birds. That said, there is an important difference in definition of "take" bewtween ESA and MBTA...under ESA "take" is specifically defined to include harassment, whereas under MBTA "take" is not defined and courts have held that only direct take, such as hunting/poisoning, constitute take but habitat modification does not.
Regulatory world is always complicated, and even moreso when relying on laws that were not clearly written in the first place and have relied upon series of court rulings on various sub-aspects for clarity or detail.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
it is already getting pretty warm down canyon this time of year,
and with something like 20 to 30 miles of cliff total in the Valley, it seems odd that we would begrudge the falcons the small areas that are closed.
By May we will be complaining about the heat and wondering when Tuolumne will open, chomping at the bit to get up to the high country to do our cragging.
Arch Rock will be available to us starting in August, but probably won't really be visited much by climbers until Sep, Oct and Nov... and in a "good year" Dec.
Interestingly, the weather that has kept climbers off of Arch Rock has been noticed by the Peregrines and might be a factor in their decision to build there. Climbers are visitors to those high, steep places, Peregrines, and other creatures like the Dudleyae, the hummock islands, the ants, frogs, swifts, they all make their home there and survive with the slimmest of margins on their own... an intelligence which we humans may no longer have...
we should be good visitors and not impose on the "hospitality" of these wild places, for what hospitality that can be offered, we often demand more.
|
|
tarek
climber
berkeley
|
|
In general, assuming that an extra margin is required for breeding success, I have no problem with giving the birds a wide buffer from climbers.
But, if the wide-buffer policy leads to increased success, buffer tightening would seem to be called for (as Jesse mentions is happening to a degree).
Right now, on a cliff like Arch, though, the nature of the cliff face (complex) would seem to provide buffers that a flatter cliff face would not. If the park service provided a more detailed closure: a few routes open, only first pitches of some routes, etc., that would indicate to me a bit more thought was going into the planning. (Anyone know about the peregrines at Jailhouse, spitting distance from whipping, tantrum-throwing climbers?)
A question: climbers have been in Yosemite in significant numbers since the 60s. How is it that peregrines habituate to humans in urban environments, but not to climbers?
Obviously, as human impact on wildlife increases outside wilderness, the need to protect it inside wilderness takes on greater urgency. Now if someone could provide evidence that rv exhaust (in particular) is deleterious to peregrine breeding success...
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
With a species such as the peregrine that has a local population of 10-15 pairs we are more proactive with our protections, .... ~JesseM
Do the 10-15 pairs include those at HH and other places outside the Valley such as SF Half Dome? Any idea what the 'optimal' carrying capacity is for YNP?
My inclination is that if the science isn't clear, it's better to err on the side of the birds.
g
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
Is there a site with the full list of Yosemite Bird Closures?
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
K-man,
JesseM posted this upthread.
is this what you're looking for?
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
So I assume that Arch Rock will be proactively closed next year until it has been determined whether the nesting pair has returned or not?
When is that closure likely to start?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
fwiw, "delisted" does not necessarily equate to "thriving", just sayin.
jesse-
nice job in this thread of doing your job, and doing it well.
wasn't all that may yrs ago that we had to hike into the cookie, so maybe the occasional yosemite climber or two is just taking some things for granted? why not take the opportunity to tick some cliffs you have never been to? i love me some arch rock crack, don't get me wrong, but this is not such a big deal, funkinA just drink beer and slackline all day, and then boulder in the evening, or go scare yourself on some lesser known horror show nobody ever climbs, you still have lots of options!
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
Come May, I don't really care that Arch is closed. On cold, but sunny day in late February the options are much more limited.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
Most everyone is right on on this thread. That's why I believe climbers and ornithologists/biologists should work together to gain a better understanding of falcons in this case. Even though a species has been delisted, doesn't mean they're necessarily okay even after many years. Due to the combination of limited data, biased reports, scant resources and fear of doing damage to a species on the comeback trail, the agencies are going to move very slow. Also, birders have a very strong voice and climbing comes in a distant second.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
Given the starting condition in the early 70's of no nesting pairs east of the Mississippi and only a handful west of it, Raptor biologist are pretty fervent in protecting the gains they've made over the past forty years. You can basically think of every successful nest established as an FA to that crew very much paralleling in spirit what we've established in our [overlapping] world over the same time period.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
BUMP for others like me that
a. Missed it the first time and
b. Did not see the take-back on the closure list.
Jesse or whoever is the custodian of the bird closure page...
The top part of the page (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingclosures.htm); says, "Arch Rock Area - ...The routes from "Anticipation" east to "Grokin" remain open." I quit reading after I saw that the usual stuff was open. It was only after my friend insisted that the ladies at the entrance station said that it was closed that I saw the revision to this statement further down the page. Maybe you can revise the top statement so that well-intentioned people don't go up there thinking that it's open? Thanks!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!