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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
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Here's a photo
I'm not sure I see where it's been suggested that you placed the bolts? Some guy named Kris and Kelsey right?
Things I do see... Claims that the FA party was fully aware and supported this are simply untrue. I contacted 1/2 of the FA party as suggested by you. The idea that these bolts don't alter the start of Lemming Ranch are untrue. It's obvious in the photo which you falsely suggested that I've never seen.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Wow, John you really don't ever stop. I considered not actually replying to this since I'm sitting in Yosemite and doing actual climbing instead of just spraying constantly on the internet about routes you know nothing about. But I don't think its right to try as hard as you can to make someone look bad using lies and alter egos. So I'll correct you here in the open. Also you don't need to try and make up false accounts (cavemonkey, Bent Knee) to try and slander me. You do just fine on your own. So here goes, and I know that this is trivial and worthless information to a great many of you. And that we've wasted valuable life time arguing about something that really shouldn't matter. We should all go climbing. Sorry.
We did bolt a line to the left of Escape from the Lemming Ranch (not Farm, speaking of not knowing what your talking about), which I'm pretty sure you've never climbed. Before bolting the route we discussed the start and the start of lemming ranch and started far to the left of where I had climbed it before. I believed the start to be down and right at least 15ft or so from where our current route would go. When I wrote the previous book I had talked with Roger Pollard who did the first ascent and he told me he always thought the lower section could use a bolt. I , in fact, got permission from him to add a bolt to that area (which I intentionally did not do).
After we put up the route the picture went online and the storm started. We've picked through old photos and through it all I reached out to Roger and got his take on it. Here's a picture that Roger himself put up online on Rockclimbing.com. You can see the two original lines that he drew which are Escape From the Lemming Ranch and Tax Man Cometh. I drew in a red line to show where our line goes. This picture was taken from around 100 yards away. The distance between the two lines is at least 15ft at the base.
Now, that really should be enough to show that we did not in fact retrobolt it but it got interesting because there are also photos showing that they appeared to come from the left, which didn't match with the photo. Namely this picture of Roger leading it on an early if not first ascent.
So, which way does it go?
Well I was able to get in touch with Roger and here's what he sent me.
As I remember the pro was pretty crappy as I noted on your FB picture even though from the ground the crack looked good it was way too flaring to accept anything. I was carrying a drill with 1/4 bit so I had an out if things got weird. I also carried a couple pins and pounded a massively bomber lost arrow in at the base of the corner. It was a good thing that I did because I talked JJ Brooks into going out with me and see what he thought since I was talking it up. He ended up falling from the top of the dihedral (was weird because he was totally solid then airborne) all the gear ripped out and the only thing that stopped him from cratering was the pin. It was the longest fall I ever caught ...probably 30ft. The reason I mention this is the climb goes up right. straight up then left which is a setup for the naive leader a classic zipper situation. You MUST oppose the first piece! With all the sport climbers these days it is cause for worry. Also the belay bolts are sh#t .. 2x 1/4 inches (drilled by had i might add) so those definitely need to be replaced.
Not sure if the pin is still there. I recall leaving a long runner in it so someone could clip it from below and be somewhat protected. The climb should be a HP classic but might turn some away for the reasons mentioned. putting a bolt up by the flaring crack would help. Feel free to make it safe how ever you need to, with so few climbs I think it is necessary. I'm Glad to see you're working that wall, there's some good granite there.
And with that he sent me this picture of how the FA went down.
You'll see that the lines are different for sure although the first bolt does look like it could be on or close to the route. However if you were to climb it without the bolt you would not follow our line but a line 5ft to the right where Rogers line is in the picture. You would not be able to clip the bolt from the original line of easiest climbing without doing a small traverse left to clip it and then the second bolt would be off route.
So with all that being said we don't feel that we've retro bolted the route, even though we had permission to, its more like an alternate start at this point and even though we didn't mean to, it makes this classic a more appetizing climb which will probably see a lot more traffic at this point.
So there's my spiel. I know you still have problem with me JK, I dont really know why seeing that you don't actually climb rock or crag around here and I've never actually seen you before on the crags....ever...So lets get beyond this. Its annoying and really your the only one who cares to continue such a stupid argument or fight.
As to why we bolted it? Because its a pretty fun line.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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Do you really not see how this is a retro bolting ?
"You'll see that the lines are different for sure although the first bolt does look like it could be on or close to the route. However if you were to climb it without the bolt you would not follow our line but a line 5ft to the right where Rogers line is in the picture".
Why didn't you contact Sweeney? The other half of the FA party. I think you had a pretty good idea what his answer would be.
This one shows it pretty good too.
Either way the route goes your bolts are additions to a route established a quarter century ago...
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
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The reason we did not is because we were not there to retrobolt any line and we did not. I know this pictures misleading because I took it. Why don't you go out there and follow the line that he drew and tell me what you think. Then come back and spray some more.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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They're not. If anything I could see you try and make a claim for the first bolt even though that is not the way you would go if you were doing the FA and trying to climb the easiest line. Its not really that easy there. I'm letting you know because I know that you've never been to the wall or probably anything in Hatcher.
Lets get to the root of this. I know you've never been willing to actually talk to me in person because I've seen you around town and you avoid me. So whats your deal? You don't have any idea what your talking about so whats your plan?
Arent you something of an alpinist? Why don't you just spend your time and energy in something worthwhile?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
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Also your claim that I'm making up "false accounts to slander you" is laughable... I'm sure this will come out in the wash.
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Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
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Sep 28, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Sorry Kelsey, I'm not John, I've never met him although I vaguely remember calling or emailing him about climbing on Yukla. Kelsey whenever we met I was usually soloing, but there may have been a time or two that I was with Eddie or other well known SC long time locals.
Kelsey you and I have a philosophical difference and when you mention "I added a bolt that will make a classic line safer or tamer for the masses (paraphrasing)" it makes me cringe a bit. Otherwise I applaude you for your efforts on cleaning up the countless time bombs lurking around Anchorage.
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
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I also am not John
nor have I ever climbed with him
but I am familiar with the two of youz disagreements in the past
Take my word for it, I am more familiar with the history and ethics of the area than you and have spent decades wandering those hills
Man up Chelsea and admit you are wrong. People will respect you for it. I haven't been to the wall since the bolts went in, but heard from others who have clipped them and continued up Lemming. You have taken a old route that required mandatory courage as a qualifier, and added a sport weiny variation start. That is a retro bolt in case you didn't see that clearly. Honest mistake. Just fix it. You should be inspired by being in Yosem, think that it would fly there?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
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WWBD ?
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the_dude
Mountain climber
anchorage, alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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If all of you feel so strongly about it, then attach your real names to your opinions. There's no need for name calling, but if you really feel that strongly against Kelsey's actions, own it with your name, not some online persona. The common thought though is pretty simple and widespread across any climbing venue.
Don't retrobolt and don't put another bolted line close enough to an established line so that it changes the character of the original route.
Go climb Serenity Crack. That first 35 feet is more or less unprotectable (except by a flared .75 in a pinscar up high). Bolts have been added and chopped and the consensus is that they aren't needed. If people can't climb the route without taking the groundfall potential, they don't climb it.
Go climb in J-Tree, Taquitz/Suicide, The Needles. All of these have great cracks with sketchy or heady face climbing starts and groundfall potential.
-Clint Helander
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
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Bent Knee - Not really sure who you are and I don't remember meeting you. Doesn't mean I didn't but I don't remember it. I'm not sure where you say you talked with me about rebolts. I only use ASCA gear for rebolting so I'm not putting crap bolts in. Also I don't know what you mean about bolts on top of a boulder that didn't have them before. I've never put new bolts on top of any boulder and i've only replaced them on one (the nugget boulder and I only replaced a few of those). I guess my question would be to ask what makes you think you were qualified to judge what was misplaced or out of character when you only lived in AK for four years? I can continue to question the rest of what you said in your post but I don't actually think any of its true. Following me around for a year changing routes that you think I changed is super hypocritical. Please don't paraphrase me to make it sound like I intentionally retrobolted a route. If I did do it intentionally or otherwise then I'll admit to it. I've never shied away from admitting my mistakes.
cavemonkey - I don't agree that it is a retrobolt and neither did Roger. Yes you can traverse into the crack for the first piece of gear from the bolts on our climb but how far is that? From what I've seen you can clip the 3rd bolt on our climb and do a traverse across some 15ft or so to the first piece for Lemming Ranch. How many climbs can you do that on in the country? Even here in Yosemite. We didn't put it up as an alternate start but it can be used as one by running it out on unprotected ground. How many climbs have alternate starts? If we had created an alternate start to the climb with the permission of the FA then would it not have been accepted? This isn't really any different only it was completely unintentional. If you actually went to the cliff and climbed the Original Lemming Ranch then you would know that it doesn't follow our bolts. I know the picture is somewhat deceiving but it follows to the right. Do you go to a cliff where two routes or nearby one another and climb half of one then half of the other and call it good? No. You figure out where the start of the climb is and climb it that way. Sure you could use the other route but your cheating the route and yourself.
johnk - You've never admitted a single mistake you've ever made during all your bogus and irrational claims. Until you do, I won't respond to you again.
I realize saying all this isn't going to actually solve or help anything because this isn't a debate its a bashing and its not really meant to be anything else. I won't even have a discussion with those name calling or other childish comments. Arguing on the internet makes idiots of us all.
The Alaska climbing scene is tiring.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
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The Alaska climbing scene is tiring.
Sounds like you need a trip to visit ol' GDavis in Josh :)))
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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please tell me you'd provide boxin' attire GD.
maybe some pennies in the left hand-glovez
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
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Hey Gdavis! It was super cool meeting you the other day. A trip to Josh does sound fun but its hard to leave the valley! heh
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:29pm PT
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Right on bro was really cool meeting you as well!
No gloves I'll learn the soft art of Kung Fu ;D hehehehe
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 28, 2015 - 08:59pm PT
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"I guess my question would be to ask what makes you think you were qualified to judge what was misplaced or out of character when you only lived in AK for four years"?
That's as long or longer then you were here before you retro bolted Splat Button and Hocus Pocus...
" Please don't paraphrase me to make it sound like I intentionally retrobolted a route". Read the first page of this thread...
This isn't the first route you have knowingly retro bolted and then bragged online about.
The photos of Lemming Ranch make it pretty clear what's happened...
Further more your bs argument over who's local enough doesn't hold water... After all the guy you claimed gave you permission doesn't live in the state. Not that it matters. Oh and "permission from the FA party" means just that... Party being the key word, as opposed to an individual.
My "bogus and irrational claims"? Haha like what? Like your claims that I'm using multiple identies to harass you? Or claims like these are obvious retro bolts?
I mistakenly called Lemming Ranch Lemming Farm. My bad... Seems trivial in comparison to your repeated f*#k ups...
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Bent knee
Ice climber
VT
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Sep 29, 2015 - 07:26am PT
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IIRC either at the parking lot or the monolith we talked about Flakey and how you felt a bolt at the bottom would help. We talked about bolting and retro bolting for a bit when you put in the climb on the left of sunshine buttress as you enter the trees. No worries if you don't remember me or our conversations, if you didn't author 2 guidebooks or bolt/ re bolt I wouldn't remember you.
As to the boulder, it's one of the many traditionally bouldered near Boy Scout rocks. The hangers were removed by hand no wrench or tools. They were removed due to the crap job of the installer, perhaps it wasn't you but they were ASCA bolts.
"It makes this classic a more appetizing climb which will probably see a lot more traffic at this point." From the previous page, your words not mine.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Sep 29, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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Ill come out and pull all the bolts you like! super easy if ya have the right tools. Die Grinder for those tough ones..
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Sep 29, 2015 - 08:21am PT
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You got a cordless die grinder?
Hate to say it, but tempting to just lift the hangers and mangle the bolts as a reminder. I know its lame, but kinda pissed off.
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