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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Not to sh*t on anyone's parade, but I am the only one who thinks there something a little fishy about the semantics of this? How many days and how many tries do you get on each pitch? What is the difference between what Caldwell is doing and a week spent cragging single pitches? How can you claim that you succeeded in freeing a route when, so far, you and your partner have taken 11 falls ("burns") in the first nine pitches?
I agree that each pitch is EVENTUALLY led with no falls by one partner and toproped with no falls by the other.
Claiming it as an all-free ascent is another thing. If I spent three months trying to climb the Rostrum, for example, and spent a week and 20 tries to get each pitch clean, I hardly think that would be considered sending the route in style.
My vote is that this can only be claimed as "climbed each pitch clean with no falls", NOT "climbed the ROUTE free".
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Sounds alot like my ascents of El Cap
p1->burn
p2->burn
p3->burn->p3
etc to the top!!!
Rasta!
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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I think it is an incredible route and that Caldwell and Jorgeson are amazing climbers.
But, I have a problem with claiming it as a free ascent when in fact there were multiple falls on almost every pitch.
Can we look forward to a new era of one-upmanship where a route is done with successively fewer falls (sorry, "burns") until eventually it is climbed with no falls?
Just sayin', there's a big difference between freeing the pitches, and freeing the route.
P.S. Jeremy, it's a climbing forum. If you want to swap insults, please wait until recess.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Peter what you are saying is in a strict sense true. But these guys are pioneering, and the business of pioneering is not always pretty nor does it always go according to plan or others expectations. So make your point if you feel you must, but maybe not in such a way as to seem negative about what is going on up there.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Are these guys hauling too, or do they have staged camps up on the wall?
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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... nicely put Ksolem...
now... on with the show.
I'm excited about this. This is exciting!
freeeeee... dom!
A.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Peter, in the long history of free climbing in the Valley, the distinctions that you are making are all within the style band of 'free'. Everything within that 'free' band is free, by historical definitions. Trying to exclude some part of the band of free climbing on the basis of style has always been a bit of fool’s errand because time rolls over it: no one remembers how many times Kauk and his friends tried 'Separate Reality' until Ron led it; no one remembers how much effort Bachar spent bouldering out the details on the crux pitch of 'Astroman'. I don't remember.
The important bit has been full disclosure. It is the full disclosure allows a future party to aspire to a better style. (You should have heard the carping about Ray Jardine hangdogging up hard, new stuff in 35 years ago: lots of climbers couldn't even bring themselves to call it climbing, much less free climbing, and it was bad style by definitions of the day. However, it allowed climbers like Kauk and Bachar to up their game when they climbed Ray's routes in better style.)
The fact that Caldwell and Jorgenson are recording their 'style' is great style.
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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KSolem
This is a highly publicized attempt by sponsored climbers. What is the problem with questioning the ethics and style of the ascent?
I don't think it is being negative to question how many attempts Caldwell and Jorgeson are allowing themselves on each pitch, while still claiming the climb as a success.
Yeah, I climb 5.10 on a good day so clearly I can't compete. But even I know the difference between the routes I sent clean in good style, and those I groveled up (he majority, probably).
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this just in
Ice climber
north fork
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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I was in the valley early spring and saw TC working the bottom slab pitches. Chris Mac, weren't you working it with him??? I think the fact that they want to climb each pitch clean is style enough. If you free each pitch of a climb while never coming off the stone then yes you freed the route. Hardest climb on El cap. Do you need more style?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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The difference is The Rostrum has been freesoloed in the time it takes me to eat a cheeseburger and ground-up in a day is the standard for that route. THIS route is harder than anything that exists in the world, there is no standard for getting up it. When you learn about past free ascents on El Cap you will see many different styles, from team free to a single person freeing each pitch to the second jugging to fixing the whole route to 261 day siege attempts. Its not like a long 5.10 where you can do 15 pitches and be alright if you are a world class athlete. Everything from skin conditioning to waiting for the right time of day for temperatures comes into play when you are standing on and grabbing those tiny edges. Eventually, yes, someone will probably climb the whole thing from the ground up no falls, maybe some day way in the future onsight. But we are seeing diminishing returns in climbing, where improving doesn't take a year but three, or six, or more. Think of Realization, first established .15a. That was 9 years ago. Has there been an established .15b?
Just like the Nose record climbers are coming closer to the ACTUAL limit of the human body and what it can do, and achievements there once measured in days are now measured in seconds. The trick to understanding this might be to take yourself out of the equation, because you aren't going to siege The Rostrum nor are you up there with those guys seeing the effort it takes.
Style is just silly stuff anyways, to each his own. Its always relevant to talk about it, no more so than in Yosemite of course. If you think the route should be done ground up no falls, well, its right there waiting for you :)
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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Peter, I thinks most people on this forum understand your point.
Is it worth a discussion on how we "word" their style?
Dude, I dunno, think about what they are doing....... seriously. Look @ the topo!!
Now, perhaps we can move on, and keep it positive, and offer encouragement to these climbers, for living their (our?) dreams.
Really dude, let it go. c'mon. Go for a hike or sumpn'.
It's all good.... Isn't it?
A.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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You do have a point Peter. But on the other hand, the Hubers spent ages trying to free their so called "Zodiac" and in the end were credited with a free route on ElCap. Did Scotty Burk free the Nose? People who have tried to free the Salathe have spent ages on the route, multiple attempts too. Leo Houlding worked his project over a long time and it is now recognized as a free climb. Tommy worked the Dihedral wall a long time too.
So what we have here is a bird of a different hue. These big "free" ElCap routes are not going down like some short, difficult free climb at the local pile. This type of climbing is in its infancy. Like Harding walking up to the Nose and doing what he could do to get it done. Other, "better" climbers will come along and do the climb in better style some day. Right now, Tommy and Kevin are doing the only thing that can be done at this time in climbing history. I think what they are doing is great and displays the tenacity, dedication, and skill that we old timers like to think are important attributes of great climbers. Hopefully in my lifetime, some "better" climbers will go on these routes and do them in "better style" but at the moment there is no one capable of that. So rejoice people, the Brothers are up there pushing the limits of the possible. Best to them!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Tommy has been working on this project for years.
He originally started it with Beth.
So it isn't suddenly a "Today Show".
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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OK, take me out of the equation.
How many falls, or burns, or whatever, do YOU think before the claim of a continuous ascent is considered tainted?
0?
1?
10?
100?
No Limit?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Peter, there is no "taint" since there is no attempt to claim anything beyond what they are actually doing. They are recording every detail of the ascent as are many observers from below. It is what it is.
If they accomplish their goal, and get each pitch done free even with multiple tries, then in the future they or others will come along and do it in even better style. And they will be standing on the shoulders of those who went first.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Think about the dynamic here.
What would it have been like when the first ascents of the Nose had this kind of connection to the ground? Almost hourly updates, I think it might have been something to get hourly updates from Harding.
This is a unique attempt indeed.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Whatever happens, Peter, before anything is said, the party is completely transparent about their ascent as Kris Solem says above. There are six 5.14 pitches and nine 5.13 pitches; falls are somewhat expected on even one such pitch, as our very own Fattrad points out also. I think we all know they will not ever be “grovelling” up anything here. They are both 5.14/5.15 climbers. What a team! The nature of our uppermost grades is so tenuous that they are by definition usually involving occasional falls from even the very best climbers the world has ever produced. And now we have many many such pitches in one horrendous row on a single wall that was A4 for the last 40 years.
So your question, “how many falls turns their effort this week into a tainted, asterisked achievement”, only has value if we understand that to climb this route, falls are actually going to happen but not hangdogging. Since they have worked the entire climb in its pieces, spent three years doing this (at least Tommy has), and have “got” all the pitch/parts clean, then the new work being done ---as we write here--- is an exposition of their determination and endurance, rather than their already-proven mastery of all the bits technically. And thus, were they to somehow--- after all these months---to be falling all over the thing, yes it would not only be tainted but would also be in complete contradiction to everything that both of these men have lived for and have manifested in their professional lives and shown us on this wall up to this date: grovelling is not going to happen and is merely a theoretical red herring to what is really important and what is real up there right now. And were they to fall 10-20 times total (lead or follow) but still eventually lead or follow clean in the rules of a redpoint, their effort would still be as stellar as can be. Again what we are watching is two men who have climbed the entire wall in clean pieces (actually many times over) now having to endure the entire thing and then hoping to leave it to others to experience as well!
More importantly and more realistically here on ST, we should all be hoping they are able to sustain themselves for another week, and the weather permitting, to complete their powerful vision. I am sure they want to get it completed--- imagine being unsuccessful and having to go another year on it.....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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If one of them leads each pitch cleanly they got the route free. Period.
It doesn't matter how many tries it takes. With a route of this scale that is part of the challenge, how many tries can they take before the weather, food, or fingertip skin gives out?
It can be done in better style a number of ways: the second climbs each pitch cleanly on TR, they both lead each pitch cleanly, etc.
Can we look forward to a new era of one-upmanship where a route is done with successively fewer falls (sorry, "burns") until eventually it is climbed with no falls?
What we really look forward to is the onsight flash of the route where someone climbs it will no falls on the first try. Yuji and Leo have come close on free El Cap routes. Well with the insane kind of stuff we are seeing nowadays we might look forward to a free solo of an El Cap route.
imagine being unsuccessful and having to go another year on it
If so that just makes it that more rewarding when they get it!
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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The weather is looking sketchy starting Friday or Saturday.
Statement as of 4:30 am PST on November 16, 2010
... Winter weather to return to northern California this weekend...
A cold low pressure system developing over the Gulf of Alaska
will drop southward and affect northern California this weekend.
Ahead of this system on Thursday and Friday... winds will increase
over the higher elevations of the northern Sierra Nevada and
become strong at times. Gusts of 40 to 50 mph or more will be
possible along the crest.
The main portion of the system will move through northern
California over the weekend bringing precipitation and lowering
snow levels. Snow levels are forecast to lower to around 2000 to
3000 feet later Saturday into Sunday with the likelihood of
significant accumulating snowfall over the west slopes of the
northern Sierra Nevada and over the northern mountains.
Residents of the mountains and higher foothill elevations... and
anyone planning travel to the area this weekend should monitor the
latest weather forecasts and prepare for hazardous winter weather
this weekend.
Good luck guys!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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True that, it is what it is. Nobody is trying to claim otherwise (unlike some "historic" ascents over the years).
Once the climb has been "freed," it is open for ascents in better style. For example, I believe we're still waiting for an onsight of any El Cap route, no? Folks have come darn close, but that will be a nice day for somebody.
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