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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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bump.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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From @kjorgenson: "The shade is here. Tommy and I just traded lead burns on pitch 7. No luck yet but feels very close. Temps are only getting better."
I think they were hoping to get to the top of 7 on the first day, lets hope they are ready for extra rest days : /
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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Would this route count as "sustained", do you think?
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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The twitter link is weird; it got stuck for me at the entry gdavis posted above until I logged into a twitter account.
Another link to a blog by Tommy's wife: http://tommyandbecca.blogspot.com/
And some more from the twitter feed http://twitter.com/kjorgeson
1:30am and calling it a night. Pitch 8 is in the bag. Great day.
about 8 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
Getting ready to start working pitch 8: the boulder problem. Fingers, I apologize in advance for what I'm about to do to you...
about 11 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
Instant coffee powder+mouth+water+swig=psyche
about 12 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
What a fight. Three goes for me and four for Tommy to send pitch 7. Eating dinner then on to the sharp crimps of pitch 8!
about 13 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
Pitch 7 is in the bag
about 14 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
The shade is here. Tommy and I just traded lead burns on pitch 7. No luck yet but feels very close. Temps are only getting better.
about 18 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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So the whole "North American Wall" which Robbins originally called for that side of El Cap is now to be called the "Dawn wall" for anything to the left if the NA route?
And from the description of the Topo it looks like they are prdominately climbing the "Mescalito route" calling that area of the wall "Dawn Wall"?
WTF LOL
You people are weird .....
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Ah, we watched them on the first pitch for a while. This explains the video cameras.
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Cpt0bvi0u5
Trad climber
Merced CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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Send it guys! Heres hoping.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Here's an outline version of the pitches so far, from the stories in Rebecca's blog:
burn = lead attempt
tr burn = follow attempt
[just using Rebecca's terminology, and it fits better in the column than "unsuccessful lead attempt", etc.]
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Clint,
You are amazing!
g
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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What does burn mean/represent?
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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What does burn mean/represent?
Nice try. No cigar.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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It means a fall on lead.
How that relates to red-point. pink-point, etc.
I have no idea
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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Man, these guys are really hard workers. how awesome to be able to spend so much time doing what you love. I hope this gets them the recognition they deserve.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:34am PT
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The amount of work and the committment exhibited here really is hard to comprehend...
Best of luck, Tommy and Kevin!
-JelloWishesYouSatisfaction
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Brian
climber
California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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Looks like some weather is on the way for Friday. Hope they can get through some of the hardest pitches before that hits...
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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glad to learn what burn means, i was starting to feel
the cluelessness of old age nipping at my psyche.
cheering for folks giving it their best,
that part never changes
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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Seems to be a few hard pitches there.
Best of luck.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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Burn just means a try...could be leading then falling and lowering immediately, or hanging to work moves a bit, before lowering.
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Not to sh*t on anyone's parade, but I am the only one who thinks there something a little fishy about the semantics of this? How many days and how many tries do you get on each pitch? What is the difference between what Caldwell is doing and a week spent cragging single pitches? How can you claim that you succeeded in freeing a route when, so far, you and your partner have taken 11 falls ("burns") in the first nine pitches?
I agree that each pitch is EVENTUALLY led with no falls by one partner and toproped with no falls by the other.
Claiming it as an all-free ascent is another thing. If I spent three months trying to climb the Rostrum, for example, and spent a week and 20 tries to get each pitch clean, I hardly think that would be considered sending the route in style.
My vote is that this can only be claimed as "climbed each pitch clean with no falls", NOT "climbed the ROUTE free".
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Sounds alot like my ascents of El Cap
p1->burn
p2->burn
p3->burn->p3
etc to the top!!!
Rasta!
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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I think it is an incredible route and that Caldwell and Jorgeson are amazing climbers.
But, I have a problem with claiming it as a free ascent when in fact there were multiple falls on almost every pitch.
Can we look forward to a new era of one-upmanship where a route is done with successively fewer falls (sorry, "burns") until eventually it is climbed with no falls?
Just sayin', there's a big difference between freeing the pitches, and freeing the route.
P.S. Jeremy, it's a climbing forum. If you want to swap insults, please wait until recess.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Peter what you are saying is in a strict sense true. But these guys are pioneering, and the business of pioneering is not always pretty nor does it always go according to plan or others expectations. So make your point if you feel you must, but maybe not in such a way as to seem negative about what is going on up there.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Are these guys hauling too, or do they have staged camps up on the wall?
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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... nicely put Ksolem...
now... on with the show.
I'm excited about this. This is exciting!
freeeeee... dom!
A.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Peter, in the long history of free climbing in the Valley, the distinctions that you are making are all within the style band of 'free'. Everything within that 'free' band is free, by historical definitions. Trying to exclude some part of the band of free climbing on the basis of style has always been a bit of fool’s errand because time rolls over it: no one remembers how many times Kauk and his friends tried 'Separate Reality' until Ron led it; no one remembers how much effort Bachar spent bouldering out the details on the crux pitch of 'Astroman'. I don't remember.
The important bit has been full disclosure. It is the full disclosure allows a future party to aspire to a better style. (You should have heard the carping about Ray Jardine hangdogging up hard, new stuff in 35 years ago: lots of climbers couldn't even bring themselves to call it climbing, much less free climbing, and it was bad style by definitions of the day. However, it allowed climbers like Kauk and Bachar to up their game when they climbed Ray's routes in better style.)
The fact that Caldwell and Jorgenson are recording their 'style' is great style.
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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KSolem
This is a highly publicized attempt by sponsored climbers. What is the problem with questioning the ethics and style of the ascent?
I don't think it is being negative to question how many attempts Caldwell and Jorgeson are allowing themselves on each pitch, while still claiming the climb as a success.
Yeah, I climb 5.10 on a good day so clearly I can't compete. But even I know the difference between the routes I sent clean in good style, and those I groveled up (he majority, probably).
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this just in
Ice climber
north fork
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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I was in the valley early spring and saw TC working the bottom slab pitches. Chris Mac, weren't you working it with him??? I think the fact that they want to climb each pitch clean is style enough. If you free each pitch of a climb while never coming off the stone then yes you freed the route. Hardest climb on El cap. Do you need more style?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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The difference is The Rostrum has been freesoloed in the time it takes me to eat a cheeseburger and ground-up in a day is the standard for that route. THIS route is harder than anything that exists in the world, there is no standard for getting up it. When you learn about past free ascents on El Cap you will see many different styles, from team free to a single person freeing each pitch to the second jugging to fixing the whole route to 261 day siege attempts. Its not like a long 5.10 where you can do 15 pitches and be alright if you are a world class athlete. Everything from skin conditioning to waiting for the right time of day for temperatures comes into play when you are standing on and grabbing those tiny edges. Eventually, yes, someone will probably climb the whole thing from the ground up no falls, maybe some day way in the future onsight. But we are seeing diminishing returns in climbing, where improving doesn't take a year but three, or six, or more. Think of Realization, first established .15a. That was 9 years ago. Has there been an established .15b?
Just like the Nose record climbers are coming closer to the ACTUAL limit of the human body and what it can do, and achievements there once measured in days are now measured in seconds. The trick to understanding this might be to take yourself out of the equation, because you aren't going to siege The Rostrum nor are you up there with those guys seeing the effort it takes.
Style is just silly stuff anyways, to each his own. Its always relevant to talk about it, no more so than in Yosemite of course. If you think the route should be done ground up no falls, well, its right there waiting for you :)
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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Peter, I thinks most people on this forum understand your point.
Is it worth a discussion on how we "word" their style?
Dude, I dunno, think about what they are doing....... seriously. Look @ the topo!!
Now, perhaps we can move on, and keep it positive, and offer encouragement to these climbers, for living their (our?) dreams.
Really dude, let it go. c'mon. Go for a hike or sumpn'.
It's all good.... Isn't it?
A.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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You do have a point Peter. But on the other hand, the Hubers spent ages trying to free their so called "Zodiac" and in the end were credited with a free route on ElCap. Did Scotty Burk free the Nose? People who have tried to free the Salathe have spent ages on the route, multiple attempts too. Leo Houlding worked his project over a long time and it is now recognized as a free climb. Tommy worked the Dihedral wall a long time too.
So what we have here is a bird of a different hue. These big "free" ElCap routes are not going down like some short, difficult free climb at the local pile. This type of climbing is in its infancy. Like Harding walking up to the Nose and doing what he could do to get it done. Other, "better" climbers will come along and do the climb in better style some day. Right now, Tommy and Kevin are doing the only thing that can be done at this time in climbing history. I think what they are doing is great and displays the tenacity, dedication, and skill that we old timers like to think are important attributes of great climbers. Hopefully in my lifetime, some "better" climbers will go on these routes and do them in "better style" but at the moment there is no one capable of that. So rejoice people, the Brothers are up there pushing the limits of the possible. Best to them!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Tommy has been working on this project for years.
He originally started it with Beth.
So it isn't suddenly a "Today Show".
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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OK, take me out of the equation.
How many falls, or burns, or whatever, do YOU think before the claim of a continuous ascent is considered tainted?
0?
1?
10?
100?
No Limit?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Peter, there is no "taint" since there is no attempt to claim anything beyond what they are actually doing. They are recording every detail of the ascent as are many observers from below. It is what it is.
If they accomplish their goal, and get each pitch done free even with multiple tries, then in the future they or others will come along and do it in even better style. And they will be standing on the shoulders of those who went first.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Think about the dynamic here.
What would it have been like when the first ascents of the Nose had this kind of connection to the ground? Almost hourly updates, I think it might have been something to get hourly updates from Harding.
This is a unique attempt indeed.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Whatever happens, Peter, before anything is said, the party is completely transparent about their ascent as Kris Solem says above. There are six 5.14 pitches and nine 5.13 pitches; falls are somewhat expected on even one such pitch, as our very own Fattrad points out also. I think we all know they will not ever be “grovelling” up anything here. They are both 5.14/5.15 climbers. What a team! The nature of our uppermost grades is so tenuous that they are by definition usually involving occasional falls from even the very best climbers the world has ever produced. And now we have many many such pitches in one horrendous row on a single wall that was A4 for the last 40 years.
So your question, “how many falls turns their effort this week into a tainted, asterisked achievement”, only has value if we understand that to climb this route, falls are actually going to happen but not hangdogging. Since they have worked the entire climb in its pieces, spent three years doing this (at least Tommy has), and have “got” all the pitch/parts clean, then the new work being done ---as we write here--- is an exposition of their determination and endurance, rather than their already-proven mastery of all the bits technically. And thus, were they to somehow--- after all these months---to be falling all over the thing, yes it would not only be tainted but would also be in complete contradiction to everything that both of these men have lived for and have manifested in their professional lives and shown us on this wall up to this date: grovelling is not going to happen and is merely a theoretical red herring to what is really important and what is real up there right now. And were they to fall 10-20 times total (lead or follow) but still eventually lead or follow clean in the rules of a redpoint, their effort would still be as stellar as can be. Again what we are watching is two men who have climbed the entire wall in clean pieces (actually many times over) now having to endure the entire thing and then hoping to leave it to others to experience as well!
More importantly and more realistically here on ST, we should all be hoping they are able to sustain themselves for another week, and the weather permitting, to complete their powerful vision. I am sure they want to get it completed--- imagine being unsuccessful and having to go another year on it.....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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If one of them leads each pitch cleanly they got the route free. Period.
It doesn't matter how many tries it takes. With a route of this scale that is part of the challenge, how many tries can they take before the weather, food, or fingertip skin gives out?
It can be done in better style a number of ways: the second climbs each pitch cleanly on TR, they both lead each pitch cleanly, etc.
Can we look forward to a new era of one-upmanship where a route is done with successively fewer falls (sorry, "burns") until eventually it is climbed with no falls?
What we really look forward to is the onsight flash of the route where someone climbs it will no falls on the first try. Yuji and Leo have come close on free El Cap routes. Well with the insane kind of stuff we are seeing nowadays we might look forward to a free solo of an El Cap route.
imagine being unsuccessful and having to go another year on it
If so that just makes it that more rewarding when they get it!
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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The weather is looking sketchy starting Friday or Saturday.
Statement as of 4:30 am PST on November 16, 2010
... Winter weather to return to northern California this weekend...
A cold low pressure system developing over the Gulf of Alaska
will drop southward and affect northern California this weekend.
Ahead of this system on Thursday and Friday... winds will increase
over the higher elevations of the northern Sierra Nevada and
become strong at times. Gusts of 40 to 50 mph or more will be
possible along the crest.
The main portion of the system will move through northern
California over the weekend bringing precipitation and lowering
snow levels. Snow levels are forecast to lower to around 2000 to
3000 feet later Saturday into Sunday with the likelihood of
significant accumulating snowfall over the west slopes of the
northern Sierra Nevada and over the northern mountains.
Residents of the mountains and higher foothill elevations... and
anyone planning travel to the area this weekend should monitor the
latest weather forecasts and prepare for hazardous winter weather
this weekend.
Good luck guys!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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True that, it is what it is. Nobody is trying to claim otherwise (unlike some "historic" ascents over the years).
Once the climb has been "freed," it is open for ascents in better style. For example, I believe we're still waiting for an onsight of any El Cap route, no? Folks have come darn close, but that will be a nice day for somebody.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Really, Kelly. Onsites of 5.13 and 5.14 pitches aren't all the common, much less when they are jammed in with a ton of other similarly hard pitches on a big wall.
It does look like crappy 20's weather starting Friday for four effing days for our heros. They are prepared of course and have cached as well and reached that cache apparently.
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Awesome!!
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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The level of climbing is amazing.
I meant to accuse only myself of groveling.
I agree that the reporting is transparent, except for the substitution of "burn" for "fail".
But, no matter what the level of climbing, it seems contrived - to me - to have established camps and no time frame to send each pitch. I don't agree that the ethics on a 5.14 are different than on a 5.10, just because the grade is harder.
Caldwell has already freed every pitch, but not in sequence and not without touching the ground.
So, how big a deal is it to do them in sequence, but with multiple fails on any given pitch and resting at established camps? It clearly takes more endurance but is it a significant leap forward in difficulty or commitment?
P.S. I can run a mile at world record speed, as long as I only have to run 100 yards at a time, and get a redo any time a sprint is off pace.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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Peter...Shhhhhh
You sound like an ass. Quit your yapping, these guys are pushing limits. Your just pushing buttons. People always gotta hate. Geezus.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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This is awesome and I would love to read the blog but with that background it is completely unreadable.
Also, Peter brings up a pretty good point. I think ultimately, everyone takes note of style though and things stand as they are. Was Harding's ascent of the Nose laughable compared to the later FA of the Salathe? Is the Piana/Skinner ascent of the Salathe to be ignored because of Huber's? It's probably up to each climber more than to any objective sense of style or accomplishment. Personally, I just think it's sick that people are climbing this hard on El Cap on new lines.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Peter,
It is what it is. No more and no less. No one claims it is anything other than an attempt for both of the guys to climb each individual pitch, in sequence, free on lead and following without returning to the base. I think that's cool and wish KJ and TC best of luck.
I'm OK with summit with plummets. Actually, I'm astounded at the audacity of free climbing this section of the wall. I like that they are doing the impossible in the only possible way it can be done today. That is how progress is made in this silly sport. If they can't make it happen, that's cool too. They tried.
5.13 protected by peckers. Yikes!
Gene
A 5.6 career climber
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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This is awesome and I would love to read the blog but with that background it is completely unreadable.
I just select a couple paragraphs at a time and it makes it blue text on white.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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I agree that the reporting is transparent, except for the substitution of "burn" for "fail".
The first climber I heard use the term "burn" in this sense was Erik Erikson. It was clear to me that this meant the highest quality attempt one is capable of. It is a positive thing, the very best effort, with the outcome not known. Perhaps success, perhaps not.
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Burt
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas, Nv
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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Peter, they are doing the free ascent without coming back down. So if it takes them a month, they are doing each pitch consecutively. So my ascent of Zenyatta is scewed because I whipped? Or the one day of Zodiac again I whipped? I understand it is not a "push" ascent in a day, but this is nothing short of completely amazing not seen yet by anyone else in the world. Your logic seems way off on this one. They have been very forthright in saying that they are going to have camps and take as much time as needed to free this sucker, because it is such a leap forward. Is there a better style? Of coarse, there always will be. I mean personally I think Alex H's solo of Half Dome was skewed because he wore shoes and a chalk bag.... I mean lets get real here. they are not rapping in from the top, freeing a pitch here and pitch there and calling a free route. they are starting from the bottom and freeing their way to the top. End of story.
Kurt "Burt" Arend
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rocket scientist
Trad climber
Logan, UT
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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I don't agree that the ethics on a 5.14 are different than on a 5.10, just because the grade is harder.
Your homework for tonight: learn the difference between 'ethics' and 'style'.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 16, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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doing the impossible in the only possible way it can be done today....
hmmmmm....rap bolting on El Cap - extended rests in the portaledge @ hanging belays.....
Now the Prophet & Lost in Translation are a bit less heavy handed albeit @ a lesser grade.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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I guess in all fairness to this Peter character, we should consider the following hypothetical.
Imagine: TC and KJ get to the summit having completed all the pitches eventually without falling on the final leads and follows but with a bunch of falls in the making and working during their continuous push. Then out of nowhere comes another team who then climbs the Dawn onsite--- no falls while leading and following. This second free ascent would be ---hands down---a higher achievement than the Caldwell-Jorgeson ascent. The only problem is, it is just a fantasy scenario at this point in time. And, as a side point, the subsequent ascent of course would be standing on the shoulders of the prior, pioneering, visionary accomplishement of Tommy and Kevin.
Again, K and T are climbing what they are climbing and in the manner they are climbing --- all transparently--- and are happy with their own approach to the route and lastly are proceeding as we speak. Others coming later in time may style themselves differently as they wish. But Caldwell may be most qualified of anybody breathing air today, to figure out how to get up this line in 2010 in some fashion that ressembles freeclimbing and conforms to our redpoint ethic. And their ascent is congruent with many of the free ascents of former aid lines on El Cap in our history.
The main thing to recognize here is that their ascent this week is of a type we really haven't seen before, requires a stupid amount of difficulty and endurance, and requires climbing skills that only several people on earth possess and here they are, teamed up, and actually doing it. It is really historic.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
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This second free ascent would be ---hands down---a higher achievement than the Caldwell-Jorgeson ascent
It would be hands down a better style but a better achievement is subjective.
What was the greater achievement Warren taking 45 days to do the fa of the nose or the 2nd ascent?
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Rap bolting?
Gene
A career 5.6 climber
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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Is there a term for freeing a multipitch route with no falls from top to bottom? Besides flash if you get it on the first try. Should there be one?
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Peter
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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Uh, it's a forum, the whole point is yapping.
Call me an ass, call me retarded, call me a hater (?) yadda, yadda, yadda.
It's still applying a siege mentality to free climbing. I had the audacity to question if that was good style. If you think that's offensive you might want to try an easier sport.
And now we can all get back to cheering.
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this just in
Ice climber
north fork
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
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Peter your question has driven this thread. Of course you know what they're attempting and what an achievement it is. Don't worry dude honnold will solo it and win the prize.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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The amount of time these guys have put into this route to climb it in this style is crazy.
Now imagine how much time it would take to wire each pitch to the point where they could lead(and follow) each pitch FIRST TRY for what Peter wants to consider a "continuous push".
Now THAT's crazy.
Someday it'll happen.
This is awesome.
Best of luck to the Boyz.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 16, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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It's not the best style, which would be to on-sight everything. But there are very few folks that can on-sight 13+/14, and generally that only happens on limestone, bigger holds on steeper terrain. But generally working a route is pretty common on 5.14. Much of this is sounds like it is alot more technique intensive, so siege is what happened. But who knows, maybe 10 years down the road Adam Ondra will team up with grizzled Yos veteran Alex Honnold and flash the whole thing.
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hagerty
Social climber
A Sandy Area South of a Salty Lake
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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Peter someone wrote:
It's still applying a siege mentality to free climbing. I had the audacity to question if that was good style. Actually, you first questioned if it was a free route. Then you changed that to "continuous ascent". Now you're claiming you were talking about style all along. Perhaps figuring out exactly what you want to argue is apropos at this point. All you're really doing so far is pushing buttons.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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Peter, basically this approach has been in use for over 30 years on Valley free routes of this sort. Clearly you are out of your league even "yapping" (as you put it) on this thread and do yourself a disservice, especially since you are equivocating as well, Hagerty points out just above.
However you are also mistaken to call their current push, "sieging". "Sieging" means they are returning to the ground and may or may not immediately return to the ascent but have full access to all the benefits of returning to "civilization". Perhaps if you think of "sieging a castle" you will never forget the definition. The Caldwell/Jorgeson party is simply sticking to the climb and trying to get a fall-less climb out of it, with some pitches having to be re-attempted in the process. It is a redpoint and is quite a bit more than a sieging. The approach they are taking this week is awfully clean even by short-climb standards. In fact I fully expect that you would not even be able to understand how the thing gets climbed at all.
I think you need to understand 5.14 climbing a bit more. Take a look at Magic Line. It is an early Yosemite 5.14 route easily accessed by ordinary people. It is just to the left of the Mist Trail before you begin the stairways up to the actual Vernal Falls. Walk down the hill about 75-100 feet to an almost non-existent straight-in crack that ascends a near vertical face for a pitch. Ron Kauk worked it many times and finally on his 40th birthday sent it as a lead. He rehearsed it, cleaned it out, fell a bunch on it, and eventually got it. There is even a DVD of the successful climb. In looking at the actual climb, you will see how very very little there is to work with, how even the slightest vagaries of moss, wind, position, temperature, humidity etc will bring about a fall and that the moves are highly specialized and really bouldering.
No one questions that climbing the Dawn wall all free and with no falls would be even more amazing, more stylish and impeccable-- than the way the Tommy and Kevin will get their climb done. It just isn't going to happen and what we see is the application of the best and most persistent talent available to the problem, much in the exact same manner as over a dozen other big free El Cap routes were completed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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I had the audacity to question if that was good style. If you think that's offensive you might want to try an easier sport.
I was asking the same type of questions back in the day when Skinner and Piana did their thing on the Salathe Wall. Lucky for me there was no forum so my audience was largely limited to folks bouldering at Stoney or sitting around a fire in Josh, mostly like minded people.
Now I kind of think you are asking the wrong question. "Is it good style to apply seige tactics to a free climb?" There is no context for this climb. If they can produce clean free ascents of all the pitches bottom to top then they will have done an unprecedented ascent in a certain style very publicly - no bs.
I really hope they can pull this off. I suppose folks will pick at their style, but no one will be able to pick at the most fundamental ethic: their honesty. It's not like there is any secret trickery going on up there...
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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Oh man. It never ends around here.
Dudes are up there doing something that I would have never thought possible. And there are people out there bitching.
Hey, Tommy uses beaks for pro. It isn't like they are hurting anyone.
I can't think of better ethics. They tell the world when they fall, and they pull the rope and give a pitch another go.
When Erickson and Higby did Half Dome, they fell a ton.
Wow. It is 2010. I have aided a bunch of those pitches and the idea that they would ever go free blows my freaking mind.
They are doing it faster than the FA of the route. What's the big deal? Seige?
Thanks Peter. I just saw your post so this one is probably redundant. I say we all cheer the lads for pushing it to such an incredible level. If it was in France, they would have sport bolted it.
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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The only thing that is "troubling" about there style is the addition of bolts where their route crosses hard aid lines.
You now have pitches on Reticent Wall that are down graded due to their addition of bolts. If their line went up first.. other routes would respect their line.
I feel they don't really respect the lines in which their route crosses.
Still a proud send. And yeah.... someone like Honnold comes and free solo's their route will be much more proud then spending 7,456 days working the thing to submission.
They have less days they scotty B on the nose :)
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 16, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Super inspiring stuff to be sure. Very cool to see the updates from the wall too.
Thanks for 'the goods'
Cheers!
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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And I think their attempt/send is bad ass. Not to mention Tommy seems to continually strive to improve his style (example freeing the Nose to freeing two El Cap Routes in a day). I wouldn't be surprised if he went back later and tried to improve their style, and I'm sure he'd give congratulations to anyone else who could ascend with better style (but that seems pretty unlikely right now).
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Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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Instead of bitching about the bad-asses of the moment, let their feats inspire "what next" thoughts.
"Well I would have.." and "They should have..." statements help nothing.
"What if" and "Now what will happen.." Are better ways to go.There are very few debates in the midst of action. It's rock on, not talk on.
The edge should be celebrated, even if not fully understood by those not there.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Have been thinking all day about this and was remembering that incredible experience most all of us have had, of seeing the Dawn Wall in her early morning garment of perfect Sierra light. This attempt really is a spectacular moment in climbing history.
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sac
Trad climber
spuzzum
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Nov 16, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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It's rock on, not talk on.
Yeeeaahhh that about sums it up.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Nov 17, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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I read a bunch of this thread and find some of the attitudes expressed about what's happening on the Dawn hard to fathom. The Dawn Wall is the coolest big wall in my world and I'm totally impressed with the vision and dedication being demonstrated by Tommy and Kevin and wish them all the best in their efforts. I'm curious as to the style in which this Peter guy climbs El Cap routes free.
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Cpt0bvi0u5
Trad climber
Merced CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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Not to sh*t on anyone's parade, but I am the only one who thinks there something a little fishy about the semantics of this? How many days and how many tries do you get on each pitch?
Not trying to sh*t on your parade but I'd like to see you give a sustained and insanely technical 13/14+ wall with no falls.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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i will be totally Tweeting my K2 sumit push
I can't stop laughing.....please don't die on K2, we'd miss ya.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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and Becca's blog was just updated with some photos.
http://tommyandbecca.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/kjorgeson
P.S. listing each attempt ("burn") in the table is just one way to represent how difficult this climb is.
If you want to compare it with other free El Cap routes, check out a list at:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/yos/longhf.htm
I believe Kelly is right - none of the 5.12 or harder El Cap free routes has been onsighted free. Not even Freerider, although a few parties have done it with only one fall. Yuji (Hirayama) has tried several times to onsight an El Cap free route and has come close but has not done it yet. It's very hard.
There is no limit on the number of attempts for a redpoint. Think of Beth Rodden's 40 days of work and possibly over 40 attempts before she redpointed Meltdown, for example.
Go Tommy and Kevin! Too much excitement to contain on a single thread here on supertopo. :-)
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Nov 17, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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In the good ole days we had a big wall term for "Burn" ...
It's called A0.
Let's just say ... you guys are aiding ... time to go down, you won't get a FFA out this effort.
JMO
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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This a truly remarkable event.
God speed.
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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here's another picture of pitch 10, showing just how continously thin it is.
this is the pitch that they just finished.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:54am PT
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11 down now. Amazing. Now they're into the crux pitches. It seems like the colder temps will help, as long as they don't get completely frozen. Sending good vibes...
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:04am PT
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The Dawn Wall is the coolest big wall in my world and I'm totally impressed with the vision and dedication being demonstrated by Tommy and Kevin and wish them all the best in their efforts..
Hear hear. It's interesting, when I did zodiac circa '92, I "felt" it would go free, there seemed to me to be "just enough" especially as I had gazed at To Bolt for days on a trip to Smith. And so it did...
However, doing Mescalito and bailing off p5 of WEML much later, after some of the EC routes had been freed, I really couldn't "imagine" that going free. I guess sustained 5.13 and 14 granite is something I just couldn't even wrap my head around....looking at the crux pitches of Lurking Fear seemed "impossible" even after I saw it done on video...yea, here there be monsters....
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Pin scars rule!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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On their burns, are they going back to the belay, pulling their gear and the rope and starting again?
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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I am certain that they are, Jim. Yo- yoing is a no go on any FFA nowadays. On the send.
So they are really doing it. Guy leads a pitch and a guy follows a pitch. I am pretty sure that if the 2nd even falls he goes back to the start.
Like others, man, I have seen some of those pitches, and I doubt you could even hook a lot of the moves.
Almost all of the 5.14 stuff in the world is super overhanging. The technique to do it on vertical rock is actually pretty specialized.
Like I am some expert....
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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Dude has his shirt off. I know that they need it to be very cool temps. They climb at night a bunch.
Man, I hope they don't have to bail. This is one of the coolest El Cap ascents ever.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
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They were up there on the Molar about 2:30 in the afternoon when I stopped to look after doing my "burn/lead" at the cookie today ....
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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If you were soloing, you can't tell anyone about it Werner. It is all pure and stuff, ya know. There is a thread around here that spells it all out.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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Has anybody climbed Mescalito since these guys started working the area? It is a fact that they have added bolts. I have no issue with new bolts if the bolts are added to a new and unclimbed section of rock.
I have huge issues if any [convenience] bolts have been added to the existing aid lines, as Todd Skinner did to ruin Dihedral Wall.
Does anyone know?
Stylistically, they have been very forthcoming in how they are climbing. It seems only right that they maintain the same high standard when it comes to the ethics they have used.
Thoughts?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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I have huge issues
Yes, Pete, you do. Maybe take them up with a therapist?
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squatch
Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Pete, I climbed Mescalito in July and did not see any sign of their presence on the route save a little chalk and a bolt way off to the side of the Molar traverse where their new terrain goes.
these guys climb very clean and make a huge effort to be more bold rather than change an existing route.
I've heard many people talking about them bolting all over the wall and on the route and that is just a bunch of speculating that has no ground in reality.
anybody who questions otherwise should go up there and find out themselves.
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Nov 17, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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interview in climbing magazine has Tommy saying that they mostly replaced alum dowels/rivets with 3/8 bolts.
But I'm posting this from memory so "mostly" is definitely a questionable term for me to use considering my memory.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Hey guys, I am passing along a question from Kevin for you all. They are doing some planning and request info. Here's the basic gist:
Has anyone endured a winter storm on Wino Tower? Does it get slammed when the wall melts out?
Thanks in advance.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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I wouldn't want to be on Wino Towers in any storm.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Nov 17, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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Where to go, then?
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