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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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you bet some climbers at j tree have been caught by no anchors and no walk off.
how many of the zillions of routes in that place have nice bolted anchors?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 14, 2010 - 03:56am PT
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When the anchor is bomber and shoulder to head height I almost always use my reverso 2 in autoblock. It's faster and more convenient.
I can take slack out faster because I can take out more rope with each pull. We can climb faster because I can re-rack, drink some water, etc. and take photos etc. Attentive belaying is dependent on the climber, not the device.
I've had no problem lowering a single climber the few times I've needed to do it.
I usually extend my device 12" when I rap, instead of right off the belay loop, and have had very little sharpening of that edge. You can tell it gets sharpened from rapping, not belaying because it's not one side that gets sharp it's both. I've had mine for years with no significant sharpening.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Jul 14, 2010 - 08:59am PT
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Whenever these discussions arise, someone always mentions that using an ATC guide or Reverso "lets them save time by doing other things, like drink, eat, change clothes, etc."
Unbelievable.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 14, 2010 - 09:37am PT
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If I found my belayer doing ANYTHING besides belaying MY precious a$$, it would be the last time I ever climbed with that partner. Period!
Accidents are seldom just that--there is always a root cause, and I'd hate to be involved in one where the analysis was "inatentive belayer."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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Pretty sure that all the manufacturers of these devices all emphatically warn belayers of their limitations, both in terms of where they should (and shouldn't) be used, and how. For the latter, that the belayer should at all times be attentive, and keep at least one hand on the rope. Do those who promote and teach the use of the devices also do this?
Presumably we will soon start to read reports of accidents caused or contributed to by misuse of these devices and techniques.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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No need to wait; there's already been an accident in the Gunks. Someone tried to use a guide plate specifically for lowering and dropped the climber to the ground when the plate released.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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MH -- clove hitches do slip.
They do?
MH -- Only one locking biner?
On a typical El Cap raise using a z-rig there will be at times up to 10 people on one locking biner.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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There is always potential for a clove hitch to fail, if improperly tied. They're reasonably reliable for competent and alert climbers, but a figure 8 is as easily tied, and at most can 'give' only a few cm as it tightens under load.
On a typical El Cap raise using a z-rig there will be at times up to 10 people on one locking biner. Do you mean "ten people standing on the clifftop but clipped in to a locker using a tether, just in case" or "ten people and their equipment actively loading the biner"? The former seems marginal, although if you have someone overseeing what's going on, might work. (Giant industrial carabiner, perhaps.) The latter is hardly believeable. More information on the equipment and techniques used - probably not standard climbing ones - might clarify this.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Any knot can fail if improperly tied.
A clove hitch has several advantages and plenty of disadvantages.
Like any knot I use in the mountains: I know the knot well, how to tie it in the dark, when to use it, when not to use it, and how to check it. I always check my knots before loading them: always.
Sometimes a clove hitch is just what I want to tie myself off to the belay or to tie a line in short. It's a very good knot for equalizing an anchor because you can slip it to get unwanted slack out of the system.
One full sized locking biner, when you're certain it's locked, is plenty for an anchor.
Back to the thread.
All the pros and cons listed for belaying off the anchor are valid. Mostly I prefer to hold the belay on my harness. Better control, easier to pay out, more intuitive, less peak load on the anchor if catching a fall.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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10 people are all on one locker.
2 people being hauled up the wall with 8 people on top hauling, all on 1 standard locking biner.
So MH where is your problem with one locking biner for a standard climbing belay?
And where's your facts to back up your statement "clove hitches do slip"??
scroll down ---- http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Anders wrote:
"Pretty sure that all the manufacturers of these devices all emphatically warn belayers of their limitations, both in terms of where they should (and shouldn't) be used, and how. For the latter, that the belayer should at all times be attentive, and keep at least one hand on the rope. Do those who promote and teach the use of the devices also do this?"
Not all of them.
There was an identical thread on Mountain Project. An (apparently) well known AMGA-certified guide was asserting that it was perfectly okay to take your brake hand off the rope for a "reasonable amount of time." (Quotation marks are mine but I feel the statement accurately reflects the essence of what he said) He defended the practice in tones of slightly bemused condescension for those who felt it was unsafe.
I agree with a previous poster. I would kill the belayer if I found out he/she had taken the brake hand off for anything other than a life-threatening emergency. You can't wait to have something to drink or eat?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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If you are belaying a second and are 'inattentive' at worst the rope will get to their feet and they'll say up rope. So there's maybe the potential for a 6 foot fall, plus rope stretch. This is minimal compared to the fall potential you see on every lead. If the second is at a crux or requests it you keep the belay tight. It's weird people who lead are so concerned about a short fall on TR.
I have no problem with my competent partners multitasking while belyaing. I'd be more irritated waiting an extra 10+ minutes at each belay waiting for them To get there sh#t together. But then again I trust my partners to simulclimb so belaying is the least of my worries.
TEchniques to help you climb more efficient and faster aren't about rushing they are about allowing you to do more or longer climbs in a day.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Jul 14, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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This has been discussed many times before. You can create a scenario in the lab where a clove hitch slips - basically by applying a gradual and continually increasing amount force; many kNs of force. The test I saw used a static cord. Nothing you would ever encounter by cloving into the master point of an anchor with the lead line though. Skinny rope cloved to a locked locker...good to go! As far as multi tasking goes, you only need one hand while using an autobloc. Don't see the problem with keeping the other hand busy at the same time.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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Re: clove hitch tie-in controversy
This has been going on a long time. Each side presents their 'data' to support their side- some of which is anecdotal, some of which has varying levels of objectivity in the way the testing was conducted and recorded. Since this 'dataset' is not especially empirical, how about considering actual field incidents?
Can someone...anyone...show me the clear, documented trends of incidents that were directly related to a belayer who tied in with a clove hitch?
edit for murcy post below: Not a personal rip, but that sounds like a rope or user problem to me.
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Jul 14, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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I'm not so worried that a clove hitch will slip when set and loaded. But, especially with a stiff rope, it doesn't always want to stay set, and I do worry that when not loaded it will wrap around the biner gate leading to unpredictable shenanigans when loaded. It's pretty easy to get a (loosely set) clove to pull one loop of the knot through the gate of a non-locking biner, giving you just a rope running through a biner.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 14, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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I've used the clove hitch for most of my career as a climber w/o any problems. Just be sure it is "set" with a hard pull. Some of the newer ropes don't seem too compatible with a clove hitch, however, and a figure 8 is safer.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 14, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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In the interests of balance, here, from a Teton guide, is one of the most reasonable arguments I've seen for belays off the anchor:
http://www.womenclimbing.com/climb/features/feature_belaysecond.html
A few other comments.
1. The behavior of clove hitches is different in static and dynamic ropes. Clove hitches haven't slipped in almost all tests using dynamic ropes. In static ropes slippage has been observed. There are so many different types of static ropes that it is hard to make any generalizations, but it seems prudent to back up clove hitches in static ropes.
As for dynamic ropes, all pull tests show little or no slipping. (It is a little tricky to distinguish between rope stretch and knot tightening and slipping. Testers tend to measure the amount of rope that pulls out of a clove hitch, but slippage should be measured by how much rope is pulled into---and possibly through---the hitch.)
The only credible test showing slippage that I've seen is one by Jim Ewing at Sterling. He clove-hitched a dynamic climbing rope to an 80 kg test weight and did some UIAA drop tests. The clove hitch slipped enough each time to release the weight. I don't recall the length of the tail in this test. It certainly proves you don't want to tie in with a clove hitch on a biner to your harness, but I'm not sure what else.
When he set the clove hitch up the way it would be used in climbing as part of an anchor on the frame, it didn't slip. Depending on what side of the clove hitch debate you are on, you can view this as evidence for the point of view you have no intention of changing anyway.
It is pretty clear that if a clove hitch is going to slip at all, it will take a very large impact force to do it---a factor-two fall onto the belay. At that point, it seems to me that slippage, if it happens, is an advantage rather than a drawback, reducing the peak load on the belay anchor. In this regard, I should mention that I have held a factor-two fall on a climb when anchored with a clove hitch (no backup), and as far as I could tell afterwards the clove hitch did not slip.
Personally, I've been anchoring with clove hitches for 48 of my 52 years of climbing. Usually, there is more than one in the system, but I have no reservations about using a single properly tightened clove hitch without backing it up.
2. The second comment is about whether a plate will hold a leader fall by the second, an event whose likelihood increases enormously when the belayer chooses to do other things as well as belay.
The failure mode of a guide plate is that the load strand squishes past the belay strand, at which point braking power is lost. The loads that make this happen depend on the device and on the thickness of the ropes employed (the thinner the rope the lower the braking failure threshold).
Most people use the plates with thin ropes (typically not more than 10mm) because of the effort level required for taking in thicker ropes, so failure levels will be at the low end for them. I haven't seen any information on what fall factor that will cause the plate to fail. Perhaps Jim Titt knows...
From what little we do know, it seems important to keep slack out of the system when using these plates, and this does pose a conflict with the "hands-off" concept.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 14, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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It's pretty easy to get a (loosely set) clove to pull one loop of the knot through the gate of a non-locking biner, giving you just a rope running through a biner.
You could also end up with the clove making an open gate 'biner. Of course you MUST be using a locking 'biner or doubled and reversed 'biners for an anchor regardless of your choice of knot.
Correction: I should have added that I never use a clove hitch on a non-locking 'biner except (there are always exceptions) to maybe hold a water bottle or other non-essential item.
I carry more locking 'biners than anyone I know and sometimes use them all with the anchor I've left and the one I'm making at the top of the pitch. One locker is quicker than two reversed 'biners (and lighter on the rack).
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 15, 2010 - 02:43am PT
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My greatest concern with this system of belaying relates to the old proverb - if you have a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. If people are learning this as "the" way to belay, even if they're doing it safely and attentively, it limits their options. Too many routes and belays, at least in Canada and the US, aren't well suited to the technique. Even if the hammer is designed and used properly, there are many different nails, and it doesn't work on all or even many of them.
But then, it seems odd to me that people, intermediate climbers anyway, don't learn to do hip belays, carabiner brake rappels, etc.
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reddirt
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 02:53am PT
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assuming you're talking about belaying 2nd(s)... depends on the anchor. Depends if I can set up an optimal (higher than my head) anchor. Try doing it from a lowish anchor & maybe you'll see why (could just be me, but I don't think so).
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