Do you belay off the anchor?

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Tattooed 1

Trad climber
Sebastopol, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 12, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
I have always belayed both leader and follower off of my harness. I recently puchased a Petzl Reverso belay device that can be used to belay in auto-block mode directly off the anchor. Curious how many people belay off the anchor and what is the advantage? I tried it last weekend and it didn't make my life any easier. Any comments?
Tim
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
I mostly do. It depends on the anchor and how I can get it set up. Make sure you know how to lower it safely under load!
Erik
waulrat

Big Wall climber
Santa Rosa, CA
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
I'm guessing you mean belaying the leader, or top belaying the follower (not a TR). I have always belayed off the anchor. I use my grigri though, I like the idea of the climbers weight being transfered directly to the anchor in the even of a fall, leading or following. I also like it because in the event something goes wrong, (like if the climber is injured or something)I can lock them off without having to switch the belay location. Luckily that hasn't happened so its purely speculation.

PS...we should go climb!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
NEVER!

And being belayed off of a Reverso is not a pleasant experience.

If you are leading you are constantly short roped

If you are following you always are dealing with slack around your feet.

Few can use these things effectively and they are just one more unnecessary complication.
Tattooed 1

Trad climber
Sebastopol, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
Belaying the follower seemed pretty straight forward but I thought it would be quite cumbersome to belay the leader with the device clipped directly to the anchor. I like the thought of being able to tie off the climber in a rescue situation but in general it seemed like a pain in the ass. Maybe I just need a some instruction from someone that does it regularly.
Tim
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Oh, it all works pretty well belaying with a device off the anchor and as well, off your harness--- either way. The issues are deeper however. Escaping the belay when something bad happens is quite a bit easier if you have been belaying from the anchors. Having the weight of the climber on your waist is obviously a problem. But loading the anchors first thing is a challenge as well, perhaps one that could be fatal. Implicit was the idea of having the anchors but not necessarily bringing them into play right away. This way you had multiple systems going in your favor.

Back in the day, we did not belay off our anchors for the most part; it was considered a bit too direct back then. I am speaking of the sixties and a tiny bit later. The idea was to keep functional, the "Dynamic Belay", using the waist with all its squishiness to absorb dynamic forces and general weight of the belayer BEFORE the anchors might actually be loaded----let the waist (and the body) do a bunch of work before the anchors ever find out about it. This way, perhaps the anchors would remain intact and useful (unchallenged) while the body of the belayer would do all this work. And it was basically a valid view on the protocol. It was a duplex system.

However, and well before the widespread use of belay devices, we were in fact belaying more and more off of our anchors. This meant more and more---of course--- belays were becoming static, relying on the rope and system to do the absorption of those high KE forces. And so now today, a great deal of belaying is right off those anchor points. We have such amazing hardware now though and perhaps far greater awareness of its proximate use.
Rankin

climber
North Carolina
Jul 12, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
I've been belaying off of the anchor lately with a Reverso. I like it when it works out and I'm comfortable belaying without too much effort. Sometimes its not worth it, but when it work out, its sweet.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jul 12, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
Usually, not always. Whatever you do regarding climbing, stay flexible.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:00am PT
And being belayed off of a Reverso is not a pleasant experience.
If you are leading you are constantly short roped
If you are following you always are dealing with slack around your feet.
Few can use these things effectively and they are just one more unnecessary complication.

I have no idea who was belaying you, but if you suffered all the above problems, when thousands of other climbers use reversos without any issue, then I think you might want to find a different belayer.

Just sayin.

Edit to add: I don't like reversos because they don't grab the really skinny ropes I prefer to use, but on normal ropes they work fine for most people.

Further edit to answer the OP: Depends on the anchor.
apogee

climber
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:11am PT
What Ghost & donini said.

Belaying the second off the anchor works great, as long as you have the right device and good technique (no innuendo intended). I prefer belaying a lead from my harness...I'm able to provide a better belay that way.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:12am PT
there was a big 600 post thread on this,

or was it on which to clip first, something along those lines,
nutjob

Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:40am PT
I've often thought it's a good idea in theory, but in practice I suck too much to do it:
1. Usually the distances and angles of anchor pieces are such that it's awkward, and I get tired pulling at a weird angle or little short bits at a time.
2. I don't like to 100% rely on shock-loading my anchors, want the body to absorb it
3. I'm not as comfortable with that technique.

In theory I should keep some slings on my harness for prussicking, rap backups, and locking off the rope to escape the belay. In practice I often find myself at an anchor with almost nothing left, and no slings. Not good. Maybe this pause that refreshes will help me mend my ways.

I DO find myself using directionals more often in an anchor, so I can use my body weight to suck up slack and save my arms for climbing on a long day. Ironically, that puts 2x load on anchor vs belaying off the anchor, so my argument re: not shock-loading the anchor is lame for solid anchors (still valid for many sketchy anchors where I still go direct from waist).

All things considered, I still like directionals to use my bodyweight for sucking slack (and easier to lock off rope and escape belay), and if anchor is bad go off my waist.

karodrinker

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:46am PT
I belay the second often off the anchor through a mini traxion. Seems to work easy. Do others do this? Good practice?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:51am PT
No, I have though.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:54am PT
here is some good anchor stuff>



http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/731822/Should-the-leader-clip-the-belay-anchor

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/307091/Equalizing-anchors
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:58am PT
I recently purchased a Petzl Reverso belay device that can be used to belay in auto-block mode directly off the anchor. Curious how many people belay off the anchor and what is the advantage?
I don't do so very often - it has a slight advantage when it comes to escaping the belay (rare), but seems somewhat inflexible. Another example of a perhaps unnecessarily specialized solution to a simple problem. A negative being the possibility of putting the belay device in backward, which I've seen once or twice.

It is entirely possible to 'escape' from a belay when tied into the anchors using the rope, it just takes a little more effort and thought. And it's rarely necessary. Tieing in directly with the rope should use less gear, and is intuitively obvious.

If a climb is pretty much straight up and down, and all the belay anchors are correctly placed bolts, then I can see why some would promote such a system. But many climbs aren't.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:00am PT
I belay off the anchor a bunch, but I ain't never used no Reverso, man.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:04am PT
yeah, but can you flip your eyelids up when your stoned?

Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:05am PT
Uh, well, no.
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:08am PT
which is the answer,

uh ,well, or no?

hey look, it's Lance Armstrong at the Taco. rite on.

we still love ya Lance!

and screw landis, the punk,

i hate people who don't know when to shut up.




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