Do you belay off the anchor?

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Thorgon

Big Wall climber

Sedro Woolley, WA

Jul 20, 2010 - 01:39pm PT

Off the anchor, unless I am in Slab Monkey mode, then off the harness is the ticket!

Thor

PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber

Clovis, CA

Jul 23, 2010 - 02:02pm PT

A little off topic....

I was talking to an oldschool climber who told me a story where the leader took a huge whipper, pulling the belayer up so hard that the anchor was ripped out upwards and they were both hanging by 1 piece of pro.

So how many of you set a directional piece of gear when belaying a leader?

apogee

climber

Jul 23, 2010 - 02:04pm PT

If you are referring to a directional on the anchor, I do, when potential forces are significant (harder climbing, steeper terrain). On lower angle, easy terrain, oftentimes not. Just depends.

Seamstress

Trad climber

Yacolt, WA

Jul 23, 2010 - 02:19pm PT

Almost always place a directional. I have seen too many zippers - OK just 4, and seen gear pull out as the leader moved up I do not want that to happen to me.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Dec 11, 2017 - 11:24pm PT

Am bumping this thread after my partner reminded me of the article below I sent her back in 2008, written by SP Parker, about proper orientation of a clove hitch when tying in to an anchor. I have to admit I've forgotten about paying attention to this.

Am curious as to whether many climbers are aware of or consider this?

from http://guidetricksforclimbers.com/use-and-abuse-of-the-clove-hitch/

When the knot was tied incorrectly, with the load strand farthest away from the spine of the carabiner, it was found that the knot tried to align itself with the spine at 250 lbs., and carabiner failure occurred–before rope breakage–at approximately 38% below the carabiner’s rated strength.

JimT

climber

Munich

Dec 12, 2017 - 12:25am PT

With an HMS karabiner (which most people are using nowadays) it´s irrelevant and with the ropes we have nowadays the rope will break before the karabiner anyway.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Dec 12, 2017 - 12:31am PT

^ JimT, the link states an HMS carabiner WAS used for the tests.

Am interested in any more info you can offer about this, and how valid a concern it might be.

To get more information the AMGA contacted Bluewater, who agreed to test the clove hitch. The tests were performed under the following conditions:

An HMS style carabiner was used
Test method Mil.Spec 191A was followed
All rope was new and of Bluewater manufacture
All hitches were tied so that the load was applied next to the spine of the carabiner
A slow static pull was used rather than a dynamic load

Delhi Dog

climber

Good Question...

Dec 12, 2017 - 12:51am PT

Interesting link.

Tighten up the knot...yep always.
Orient it to load= new info for me.

Kind of hard to picture what that means in the diagram but reading the article helped.

TFPU!

Charlie D.

Trad climber

Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra

Dec 12, 2017 - 05:29am PT

carabiner failure occurred

Hard to believe!

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

Wilds of New Mexico

Dec 12, 2017 - 08:05am PT

I've never heard this before, thanks. So the key point is that the load side of the clove hitch should be on the spine side of the carabiner?? Crazy that it could really make that much difference.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Dec 12, 2017 - 08:11am PT

I emailed Marc Chauvin, who recently wrote "The Mountain Guide Manual", which makes extensive use of clove hitches for anchors. He agrees with JimT, and gave me a number of examples of manufacturers NOT being concerned with clove hitches and loading. Am pasting some of his response below.

I'm relieved that this does NOT seem to be an issue.

In this technical notice you’ll see in "Equalized anchor with the climbing rope (only when alternating leaders)" that both clove hitches are shown tied with the load strand for belaying the second on the gate side and in fact they use both sides of the clove (one for the the belayer and the other to belay the second). They also use “both” sides of the clove in one of their "Mono Directional Belay Station"
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Installing-an-equalized-belay-station?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing

Here in the Black Diamond technical PDF on locking carabiner use they show the Munter tied with the load on the gate side with a green checkmark (OK). It is in the 3rd row far left.
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-bdel/default/dw469408d8/instructions/F16/M12273_C_Locking%20Carabiner%20Hang%20Card%20IS-WEB.pdf

Given that there are no warnings by manufactures of something that would be a very easy and common error is a good indication of their concern of this issue.

I'm tempted to delete my earlier posts, but am going to leave this up to relieve anyone in the future who might be concerned about this, as I HAD been for the last 12 hours. I thought I'd been unaware and dodging potential bullets.... but it appears this is a NON-ISSUE :-)