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Auto-X Fil
Mountain climber
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The small ones, 1760lb. 1/4"? 5/16"?
I use two on each rap, from different hardware stores, in case one was a bad batch. I inspect them all, too. The little ones are strong enough, and I often use a 9mm or 10.2mm with a 6mm tagline - see recent threads about the death in the valley on this setup. With small links I am sure the knot can't slip through, no way no how.
Oh - I've rapped off bushes with stems the size of a large thumb, and various old tat and rusted quick links. Never happy about it, and now I haul two links and 10ft of green or gray 1" webbing (more on big stuff). The 1" is overkill and I always tie two slings. Next buy will be 9/16".
When I can, I rap off two bolts (three if they are there...), but if I have to use something lesser I sure yank yard on it first.
Bomber is great. But I'll take solid bomber and redundant over obscenely bomber and non-redundant any day. Two 8kN rated nuts in bomber placements? Sure. One shiny bolt stamped "Fixe 26kN"? Only if I have to.
OTOH, I borrowed a top rope knowing it was a shady setup last weekend. Two bolts, locker in each. Two lockers on the rope. One sling in the middle. A good new BD Dyneema sling that didn't look like it would see much abrasion, but still... And this guy was guiding. Teaching to belay with the hand up near the climbing strand, of course.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Thanks, Auto-X
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Anyone who thinks they could break a rap ring in a climbing scenario is dreaming. Sun faded slings and slings that have critter damage are a real concern though. Another real concern is girth hitched or knotted ultra light dynema slings. That skinny stuff can cut through itself given enough time and weighted movement.
I replaced a broken link of chain on my plow 2 winters ago with a 1/4 in quick link and it is still hanging in there. I don't like useing the 1/4" for climbing aplications even though I know it would be ok for rapping. I am however be 100% comfortable rapping on a single 5/16th quick link.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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ever rapped off a fifi on a single 200' rope? kinda the same thing ;)
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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if someone is that stupid to think that "single" everything is cool maybe you shouldn't be trying to save a life?
Darwin does have a place in this world. Handing out awards is one of them.
Edit: I'm forgetting the terminology here but the idea is this.
Because the quick link isn't tested the safe working load generally has a factor 10 difference between what it actual strength is and what it's safe working strength is. 1760 (safe) == 17,600 (actual)
with something that is tested that factor decrease (all the CE stuffs we use in climbing).
1000 (safe) == 2000 (actual). - just using these numbers for demonstrations purposes.
This is something I was told. It could be wrong.
But if I'm rapping on a single everything the things I trust the least are the things "farthest" away from me. My harness- bomber! Rap device/biner, bomber. If there's a quick link in the system - bomber. slings - hmmmm... probably bomber. the single anchor (bolt, nut, copper head) - fukk that!
double edit: how's the story go.... Bridwell and Mugs are on the Moose's Tooth and they need to bail. They get one nut that goes in about half way. I forget who went first - I think it was Mugs. Bridwell unclips from the anchor incase it blows. then he realizes if it does blow he's fukked anyway and clips back in. Sick.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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well what do you expect from someone named "Walter"?
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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If you have to do a lot of rappels, it's sometimes safer to rap off one bomber piece and one biner- just so you don't run out of stuff (or the right stuff) before you get to the ground.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Spending extra gear to protect your lives is a wise expenditure - if you have the option. It's all about awareness and risk management.
I always try to construct the best available anchor. But in the real world a great anchor is not always an option.
Don't overlook that you have considerable control over the forces on the anchor by how you do the rappel. Before you start descending, look at how the forces transfer onto the anchor. Running the rope over a rounded edge can reduce the strain on the anchor. Rappelling very smoothly minimizes the variable stresses that fray a rope or a sling. Bouncing works to fray a sling or loosen an anchor. One good bounce can double the force on the anchor.
On a slab such as GPA you can minimize the load on the anchor by maintaining an upright position and transferring some of your weight to your shoes on the rock.
On an overhang you can sometimes descend quickly and smoothly and when you reach a ledge, land on it hard using your legs to take up some of the force from the anchor.
It is not wise to depend upon such measures, but it is wise to use whatever you can manage to reduce the risks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Texplorer, Scary Larry, and I ended up rapping down the southern front face of Mt. Wilson starting a couple of pitches from the top at dusk one time after a scouting mission gone awry. We had a single 60' twin, a few slings, and a few more slings with Larry's one-hole dolts and clogs on them (why is a whole other story).
This was after eyeballing the couple of remaining technical pitches to get up and over the backside descent and looking back down the endless 3rd classing and soloing we had done to get there and weren't too keen on either of those options.
We probably did an FD and it wasn't pretty. We basically used every sling we had, one to a rap with no biner or ring, and every one of them on a clutch of shrubbery given there were no real trees the whole way.
Did the rap down the chute to the left.
We made it down alive with a hand full of old-time nuts and a few peanut M&Ms.
Climbing in Las Vegas is like a box of chocolates...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Tom reminds me of a time we did 14 consecutive rappels, leaving at least a sling at each station, usually more. On Bugaboo Spire. Often the first guy would go down with a backup in place, and bounce around a bit to test it. The second guy had only the ropes, tied at the lower station, for backup. For the last few rappels, we were taking the ropes out of hexcentrics and tying them together to make long enough slings.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I'm fine with rapping on a non-redundant anchor, good tree/bush, rope, ATC/biner, etc. after testing it with a backup in place. I wouldn't be so happy rapping on a single rusty 1/4" bolt, single rusty mystery piton, half-rotted-away slings, etc., but sometimes choices are limited (maybe time to downclimb the previous pitch if the belay/rappel anchor is not good enough).
The SMC hollow rings are great/light (unless people have been toproping through them - check all around for holes!!). The Omega Pacific rings are heavy and some people will insist on a second ring, so the extra strength is not worth it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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What nature said.
Single ring=Bomber.
Single harness= Bomber
Single rope= bomber
Single rap device= Bomber
Single biner attaching rap device to harness and rope= Bomber.
Single quick link 5/16th or larger = bomber
Single sling if it is new and no sharp edges and tied proplerly and rigged with a single ring or biner=bomber.
I have never hears of new slings failing. All that faliures of slings are either old faded tat or improperly tied.
The only other component mentioned above that has failed in a rappeling situation is the harness and in that case the harness was visibly worn.
Folks that need to doubble up on biners, rap rings, and quick links are not dealing with reality and often miss the real things that they should be concerned with such as the quality of the slings, sharp edges, helmet, autoblock etc. I know a guy that keeps adding extra locking biners to one of my rap stations but never wears a helmet or uses an auto block...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i took a couple PCGI courses last year. i think the best thing i came away with was increased confidence about anchors and the physics of it all. i've got a pretty good mechanical sense for those things, but this helped underscore and focus.
one of the instructors seemed to make a point of using a single cam placement for an anchor in a spacious ledge situation. the placement was totally solid. the ledge had everything except lounge chairs and martinis. i would never do without backup myself, but he had scads of guiding experience and it seemed part of the efficiency mantra.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Here's a nice multi-point top rope anchor, all down to one biner...and what's that rap ring doing in there?...lol
Or how 'bout this rig I found in Tujunga Canyon...
Nice single welded, weak-ass ring, but at least that's a bomber shrub!Silly canyoneeros.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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One of the biggest problems in discussions like this is that the human mind has essentially no ability to reason about probabilities. Whatever evolutionary wiring we have that enabled us to develop mathematics (and so all the other physical sciences), we simply are not equipped to think about the results when the problems are probabilistic in nature. The result is that we find ourselves jumping through hoops to avoid events of astronomically low probability, while blithely ignoring far more likely dangers.
Redundancy wasn't always the mantra of anchor and protection systems. It really only came into vogue after nuts and cams became common, because the holding power and failure modes of modern gear are far less predictable than pitons. And so redundancy became almost a mindless catechism, uttered with reverence to keep the evil forces of unexpected failure at bay, and now not open to question on pain of scorn and derision.
A formulaic reliance on redundancy can also blind the climber to the true dangers of a situation, blunting what should be a continually active evaluation and judgment process and replacing it with an uncritical adherence to a set of rules.
Here are two examples of how thinking about redundancy while ignoring the enveloping realities can be potentially fatal.
The first is a rap tree equipped with multiple slings and rap rings. Unfortunately, the soil in which the tree is anchored is being levered away from from its attachments to the cliff. Redundancy at the tree isn't going to prevent a catastrophe here.
The second example is almost a joke, except someone really did set this up.
There's so much the matter with it one doesn't know where to begin, but note the doubled carabiners for redundancy. An ill-equipped beginner with a bit of book learning and not even a shred of common sense created this fiasco.
The point (or one of the points) is that redundancy may not the thing to focus on and is not always essential. A two-wrap or two-against-three wrap of new 1" webbing on a substantial tree is not redundant, but invoking redundancy for something so fundamentally bomber is an example of worrying about the wrong probabilities in my opinion. Ditto for a beefy quicklink. They're both fine. Something else is gonna kill you, something redundancy in these items isn't going to have any effect on, and the trick is to be sensitive to what that something is before it is too late.
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reddirt
climber
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of all the adjectives this anchor qualifies for, I'm not sure if redundant is one of them...
all paths lead into entropy's open arms anyway
-Norwegian
I'm gonna have to borrow that one...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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What R Gold said.
A single 27KN ring, 2,640lb quick Link or 23kn webbing is Not what is going to kill you.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I rap off Bluewater 9/16" tied webbing and 5/16" rapides all the time. Usually never add anything more than a single sling and single rapide.
Big live tree? Bomber.
Folks do like their redundancy, though. Which is why I pick up a bunch of spare (garbage) slings every season. Biners too.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dammit!! my archive of Stony Point noob-classics got deleted.
R-gold: classic
Chief: Nice video (pg 1). The blind knotted rope-toss + batman around the 4 minute mark is awesome. Where's the universal translator? The only words I understood were "abseil" and "crazy". Edit to add: I had a similar picture to you one above^^. 4 pieces of gear spread all over the place. One HUGE like- 80 foot piece of webbing hooked up cordalette-style with no stopper knot and one biner. Any one piece pulled the climber would definitely deck from massive extension.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Risk assessment and risk management are key skills in the mountains that serve me well professionally in the human space program and as a pilot and skydiver and in life in general.
I am one of the early proselytizers of redundancy; with a mantra of 'backups on backups on backups'. Joe Fitchen was the guy who first put that thought into my teenage head. Then I read about how Walter Bonnati before a big climb would endlessly imagine what could go wrong; and then imagine a way through each situation. Generating "what-if scenarios" is a constant mental game that helps you stay alive.
Redundancy isn't just several slings around a tree or several pieces of pro in the same crack. It's having multiple completely separate systems.
It applies just as much to free solo as to rappel anchors. What if that crack expands and releases your piton? What if that strong looking tree is really about to fall over in the next strong breeze? What if that block with lots of slings that everyone has used to rappel from Rixon's Pinnacle pulls off (really happened to me with Kim Schmitz)? What if that substantial looking ledge breaks off (as happened to Jim Baldwin)? What if your foot slips on that bit of moss?
Recognize that there is a point of diminishing returns when redundancy requires carrying too much equipment or slows you down in the face of nightfall or an ongoing storm. It's all about expanded awareness and balancing many factors.
It turns out we use the same thought process in great depth and detail for human-rating a space vehicle: What-if that part fails? What if an unexpected emergent effect occurs between systems; for example a cooling loop leaks onto a power supply in the presence of a small oxygen leak? I generated the huge spreadsheet capturing everything that can go wrong with the Ares I launch vehicle. I also reviewed the design for the SpaceX Falcon 9 and the RpK K1 and others.
At the top of El Cap Nose, I don't just clipped the bomber bolts at the top of the overhang. I also run a rope up to the big tree before making the last haul. At Pinnacles I don't just clip the bomber bolts at the top of Portent before belaying novice friends, I also run a line around some bushes.
I have often been accused of overdoing it. Unfortunately several of those who criticized me in that way have since been killed. This is not a way in which I like being right.
I don't claim to know everything. I'm not sure how to process the fact that the one guy who thought I should be even more cautious on El Cap was Walt Shipley, in contrast to his partner, Dean Potter, who was impatient with me...
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