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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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I'd never rappel off a single anchor unless my survival depended on getting on it. Anybody who raps off a single anchor is asking for trouble. Things can go wrong, bolts can be faulty, etc.
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Gene
Social climber
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one piece of webbing to one tree and one link.
How big is the tree?
How big/new is the webbing. How's it tied?
Got me on the single link.
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jewedlaw
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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You aren't proving anything by rapping of a single sling/biner, but you are if one of those elements fails.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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between my rap device, my rap locker, my belay loop on the harness and the single link - the link is the strongest part. All the other parts are single/non-redundant as well and they are never questioned. The only parts of a normal climbers' rappel system that aren't redundant or backed up are the rope(s), the harness, and possibly the brain(s). The rappel carabiner and rappel device are usually backed up by a prusik or equivalent. Equally pertinent, apparent or nominal strength is irrelevant when it comes to whether or not an anchor, or any part of the belay/rappel chain, is as strong as it appears or is believed.
Certainly there are times when a single anchor must be relied on - but providing a backup is often simple and quick, and given the number of apparently bomb-proof rappel anchors that have failed, makes abundant sense.
Don't get me started on idiots who set up elaborate top-rope anchors using abundant equipment - and then run the rope through a single carabiner.
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telemon01
Trad climber
Montana
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An single ablakov with 6mm perlon- it happens all the time.
single point rappeling on a regular basis while cragging?
No thanks.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Rigging and Rescue applications......bad JUJU.
Climbing..... all of the time.
Drill a bolt, lower down to the beers.
All of the alpinist should chime in here, Man those guys will rap off of anything...Bollard! (SP)?
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middle joe
Trad climber
oc
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Humm..
Very familiar with canyoneering technique and ATS.
Canyoneer’s generally make crappy (cheap) anchors! And if you make a good (redundant) anchor in the canyons the cheap bastards will just booty your redundant link. I will say that a rap (only) anchor does not need to as strong as climbing anchor because it will never see a factor II fall. But if ATS is teaching non-redundant anchors, and I hope their not, someone is gunna die! ATS will be sued and put out of business..
My advice: practice “Last man at risk” in the canyons. Back-up the existing anchor to whatever extent you deem necessary/safe. The last man down, your most experienced (or maybe the lightest canyoneer, depending on the situation), breaks down the redundant anchor and raps on the existing anchor.
Have I done it? Yep! Will I do it again? Depends on the penalty points..
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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One tree, if stout enough, is OK in my book.
There is just no excuse for single slings and rings. None.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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In general, I avoid single-biner single-webbing raps like the plague. I'd have a heart attack rapping off a single rap-ring.
But in ugly circumstances, things happen. Like a single non-locker on this:
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I totally agree with no single sling and ring. There is a reason why I carry booty biners - you can add them to the mix when you are staring at that single ring.
There is a lot to be said about traveling light. However, there is no reason to carry absolutely nothing and hang it all out there. Cord, slings, and a biner cost less than the copay for an ER visit and the phone call to spouse.
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Critter
Trad climber
State of Jefferson
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One of the strongest webbing anchors that can be built off of a tree is the "wrap 3 pull 2" or just wrap 2 pull 2. this is what is used in swift water rescue, where forces often reach the breaking point of carabiners, and the melting points of prussiks.
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MisterE
Social climber
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^^Right on with the wrap-3-pull-2, I trust it like a redundant anchor (if the tree is solid).
I actually trust the aluminum rap-rings (qualifier: no obvious wear) after trying to crush a new one with a bench vise years ago. It took a 3-foot extension pipe.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Still gonna die if that one 3/2 fails. We are talking redundancy here...
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Sonic
Trad climber
Folsom, California
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I've done the ATS class and you only want to rap off something like that is its all you have! Darren would frown upon you
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The weak point is the slings. If its new and no sharp edges then its ok but I hate sun faded crapola. Single ring or biner is bomber. I routinly break climbing rope with old booty biners. If rapping from a single biner I tape the gate shut. My #1 logging biner is an old locker that froze shut on me ice climbing. I was real cold, tired and sick. I had no patience to try and get the locking collar freed up. I wanted to go home so I hammered the gate open with my ice tool. The locking collar broke but the gate still works. No one in their right mind would use this mangled biner for climbing. I broke a 10.2mm rope with it a few weeks ago skidding a 50ft maple up a hill when the butt of the log hung up on a stump.
Single biner or ring is 200% fine for rapell. Never heard of even one case of a biner or rap ring failing on a rapell. Lots of times the slings fail, rarely the rope cuts. The biners and the rings never fail rapelling. All the biner failures I have ever heard of were falls with open gate, nose caught on bolt or biner broken over edge. never heard of a single rap ring failur other than them getting grooved out from lowering.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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bailed off of a single #10 stopper : / didn't have much fun.
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Gene
Social climber
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Bailed off a chicken head the size of a chicken's head. Sometimes options are limited. But I knew it at the time.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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^^^That's what I'm talkin about!
WHOOOOOOP!
HOOK or DIE!!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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How about a neve snow bollard? Yikes!
I'll take a faded runner round a termited oak and an old aluminum ring in Yose.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Climbers using quick links on rappel anchor....what size/strength of quick links are you using?
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Auto-X Fil
Mountain climber
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The small ones, 1760lb. 1/4"? 5/16"?
I use two on each rap, from different hardware stores, in case one was a bad batch. I inspect them all, too. The little ones are strong enough, and I often use a 9mm or 10.2mm with a 6mm tagline - see recent threads about the death in the valley on this setup. With small links I am sure the knot can't slip through, no way no how.
Oh - I've rapped off bushes with stems the size of a large thumb, and various old tat and rusted quick links. Never happy about it, and now I haul two links and 10ft of green or gray 1" webbing (more on big stuff). The 1" is overkill and I always tie two slings. Next buy will be 9/16".
When I can, I rap off two bolts (three if they are there...), but if I have to use something lesser I sure yank yard on it first.
Bomber is great. But I'll take solid bomber and redundant over obscenely bomber and non-redundant any day. Two 8kN rated nuts in bomber placements? Sure. One shiny bolt stamped "Fixe 26kN"? Only if I have to.
OTOH, I borrowed a top rope knowing it was a shady setup last weekend. Two bolts, locker in each. Two lockers on the rope. One sling in the middle. A good new BD Dyneema sling that didn't look like it would see much abrasion, but still... And this guy was guiding. Teaching to belay with the hand up near the climbing strand, of course.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Thanks, Auto-X
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Anyone who thinks they could break a rap ring in a climbing scenario is dreaming. Sun faded slings and slings that have critter damage are a real concern though. Another real concern is girth hitched or knotted ultra light dynema slings. That skinny stuff can cut through itself given enough time and weighted movement.
I replaced a broken link of chain on my plow 2 winters ago with a 1/4 in quick link and it is still hanging in there. I don't like useing the 1/4" for climbing aplications even though I know it would be ok for rapping. I am however be 100% comfortable rapping on a single 5/16th quick link.
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jack herer
climber
Veneta, Oregon
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ever rapped off a fifi on a single 200' rope? kinda the same thing ;)
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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if someone is that stupid to think that "single" everything is cool maybe you shouldn't be trying to save a life?
Darwin does have a place in this world. Handing out awards is one of them.
Edit: I'm forgetting the terminology here but the idea is this.
Because the quick link isn't tested the safe working load generally has a factor 10 difference between what it actual strength is and what it's safe working strength is. 1760 (safe) == 17,600 (actual)
with something that is tested that factor decrease (all the CE stuffs we use in climbing).
1000 (safe) == 2000 (actual). - just using these numbers for demonstrations purposes.
This is something I was told. It could be wrong.
But if I'm rapping on a single everything the things I trust the least are the things "farthest" away from me. My harness- bomber! Rap device/biner, bomber. If there's a quick link in the system - bomber. slings - hmmmm... probably bomber. the single anchor (bolt, nut, copper head) - fukk that!
double edit: how's the story go.... Bridwell and Mugs are on the Moose's Tooth and they need to bail. They get one nut that goes in about half way. I forget who went first - I think it was Mugs. Bridwell unclips from the anchor incase it blows. then he realizes if it does blow he's fukked anyway and clips back in. Sick.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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well what do you expect from someone named "Walter"?
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mission
Social climber
boulder,co
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If you have to do a lot of rappels, it's sometimes safer to rap off one bomber piece and one biner- just so you don't run out of stuff (or the right stuff) before you get to the ground.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Spending extra gear to protect your lives is a wise expenditure - if you have the option. It's all about awareness and risk management.
I always try to construct the best available anchor. But in the real world a great anchor is not always an option.
Don't overlook that you have considerable control over the forces on the anchor by how you do the rappel. Before you start descending, look at how the forces transfer onto the anchor. Running the rope over a rounded edge can reduce the strain on the anchor. Rappelling very smoothly minimizes the variable stresses that fray a rope or a sling. Bouncing works to fray a sling or loosen an anchor. One good bounce can double the force on the anchor.
On a slab such as GPA you can minimize the load on the anchor by maintaining an upright position and transferring some of your weight to your shoes on the rock.
On an overhang you can sometimes descend quickly and smoothly and when you reach a ledge, land on it hard using your legs to take up some of the force from the anchor.
It is not wise to depend upon such measures, but it is wise to use whatever you can manage to reduce the risks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Texplorer, Scary Larry, and I ended up rapping down the southern front face of Mt. Wilson starting a couple of pitches from the top at dusk one time after a scouting mission gone awry. We had a single 60' twin, a few slings, and a few more slings with Larry's one-hole dolts and clogs on them (why is a whole other story).
This was after eyeballing the couple of remaining technical pitches to get up and over the backside descent and looking back down the endless 3rd classing and soloing we had done to get there and weren't too keen on either of those options.
We probably did an FD and it wasn't pretty. We basically used every sling we had, one to a rap with no biner or ring, and every one of them on a clutch of shrubbery given there were no real trees the whole way.
Did the rap down the chute to the left.
We made it down alive with a hand full of old-time nuts and a few peanut M&Ms.
Climbing in Las Vegas is like a box of chocolates...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Tom reminds me of a time we did 14 consecutive rappels, leaving at least a sling at each station, usually more. On Bugaboo Spire. Often the first guy would go down with a backup in place, and bounce around a bit to test it. The second guy had only the ropes, tied at the lower station, for backup. For the last few rappels, we were taking the ropes out of hexcentrics and tying them together to make long enough slings.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I'm fine with rapping on a non-redundant anchor, good tree/bush, rope, ATC/biner, etc. after testing it with a backup in place. I wouldn't be so happy rapping on a single rusty 1/4" bolt, single rusty mystery piton, half-rotted-away slings, etc., but sometimes choices are limited (maybe time to downclimb the previous pitch if the belay/rappel anchor is not good enough).
The SMC hollow rings are great/light (unless people have been toproping through them - check all around for holes!!). The Omega Pacific rings are heavy and some people will insist on a second ring, so the extra strength is not worth it.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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What nature said.
Single ring=Bomber.
Single harness= Bomber
Single rope= bomber
Single rap device= Bomber
Single biner attaching rap device to harness and rope= Bomber.
Single quick link 5/16th or larger = bomber
Single sling if it is new and no sharp edges and tied proplerly and rigged with a single ring or biner=bomber.
I have never hears of new slings failing. All that faliures of slings are either old faded tat or improperly tied.
The only other component mentioned above that has failed in a rappeling situation is the harness and in that case the harness was visibly worn.
Folks that need to doubble up on biners, rap rings, and quick links are not dealing with reality and often miss the real things that they should be concerned with such as the quality of the slings, sharp edges, helmet, autoblock etc. I know a guy that keeps adding extra locking biners to one of my rap stations but never wears a helmet or uses an auto block...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i took a couple PCGI courses last year. i think the best thing i came away with was increased confidence about anchors and the physics of it all. i've got a pretty good mechanical sense for those things, but this helped underscore and focus.
one of the instructors seemed to make a point of using a single cam placement for an anchor in a spacious ledge situation. the placement was totally solid. the ledge had everything except lounge chairs and martinis. i would never do without backup myself, but he had scads of guiding experience and it seemed part of the efficiency mantra.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Here's a nice multi-point top rope anchor, all down to one biner...and what's that rap ring doing in there?...lol
Or how 'bout this rig I found in Tujunga Canyon...
Nice single welded, weak-ass ring, but at least that's a bomber shrub!Silly canyoneeros.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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One of the biggest problems in discussions like this is that the human mind has essentially no ability to reason about probabilities. Whatever evolutionary wiring we have that enabled us to develop mathematics (and so all the other physical sciences), we simply are not equipped to think about the results when the problems are probabilistic in nature. The result is that we find ourselves jumping through hoops to avoid events of astronomically low probability, while blithely ignoring far more likely dangers.
Redundancy wasn't always the mantra of anchor and protection systems. It really only came into vogue after nuts and cams became common, because the holding power and failure modes of modern gear are far less predictable than pitons. And so redundancy became almost a mindless catechism, uttered with reverence to keep the evil forces of unexpected failure at bay, and now not open to question on pain of scorn and derision.
A formulaic reliance on redundancy can also blind the climber to the true dangers of a situation, blunting what should be a continually active evaluation and judgment process and replacing it with an uncritical adherence to a set of rules.
Here are two examples of how thinking about redundancy while ignoring the enveloping realities can be potentially fatal.
The first is a rap tree equipped with multiple slings and rap rings. Unfortunately, the soil in which the tree is anchored is being levered away from from its attachments to the cliff. Redundancy at the tree isn't going to prevent a catastrophe here.
The second example is almost a joke, except someone really did set this up.
There's so much the matter with it one doesn't know where to begin, but note the doubled carabiners for redundancy. An ill-equipped beginner with a bit of book learning and not even a shred of common sense created this fiasco.
The point (or one of the points) is that redundancy may not the thing to focus on and is not always essential. A two-wrap or two-against-three wrap of new 1" webbing on a substantial tree is not redundant, but invoking redundancy for something so fundamentally bomber is an example of worrying about the wrong probabilities in my opinion. Ditto for a beefy quicklink. They're both fine. Something else is gonna kill you, something redundancy in these items isn't going to have any effect on, and the trick is to be sensitive to what that something is before it is too late.
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reddirt
climber
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of all the adjectives this anchor qualifies for, I'm not sure if redundant is one of them...
all paths lead into entropy's open arms anyway
-Norwegian
I'm gonna have to borrow that one...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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What R Gold said.
A single 27KN ring, 2,640lb quick Link or 23kn webbing is Not what is going to kill you.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I rap off Bluewater 9/16" tied webbing and 5/16" rapides all the time. Usually never add anything more than a single sling and single rapide.
Big live tree? Bomber.
Folks do like their redundancy, though. Which is why I pick up a bunch of spare (garbage) slings every season. Biners too.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dammit!! my archive of Stony Point noob-classics got deleted.
R-gold: classic
Chief: Nice video (pg 1). The blind knotted rope-toss + batman around the 4 minute mark is awesome. Where's the universal translator? The only words I understood were "abseil" and "crazy". Edit to add: I had a similar picture to you one above^^. 4 pieces of gear spread all over the place. One HUGE like- 80 foot piece of webbing hooked up cordalette-style with no stopper knot and one biner. Any one piece pulled the climber would definitely deck from massive extension.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Risk assessment and risk management are key skills in the mountains that serve me well professionally in the human space program and as a pilot and skydiver and in life in general.
I am one of the early proselytizers of redundancy; with a mantra of 'backups on backups on backups'. Joe Fitchen was the guy who first put that thought into my teenage head. Then I read about how Walter Bonnati before a big climb would endlessly imagine what could go wrong; and then imagine a way through each situation. Generating "what-if scenarios" is a constant mental game that helps you stay alive.
Redundancy isn't just several slings around a tree or several pieces of pro in the same crack. It's having multiple completely separate systems.
It applies just as much to free solo as to rappel anchors. What if that crack expands and releases your piton? What if that strong looking tree is really about to fall over in the next strong breeze? What if that block with lots of slings that everyone has used to rappel from Rixon's Pinnacle pulls off (really happened to me with Kim Schmitz)? What if that substantial looking ledge breaks off (as happened to Jim Baldwin)? What if your foot slips on that bit of moss?
Recognize that there is a point of diminishing returns when redundancy requires carrying too much equipment or slows you down in the face of nightfall or an ongoing storm. It's all about expanded awareness and balancing many factors.
It turns out we use the same thought process in great depth and detail for human-rating a space vehicle: What-if that part fails? What if an unexpected emergent effect occurs between systems; for example a cooling loop leaks onto a power supply in the presence of a small oxygen leak? I generated the huge spreadsheet capturing everything that can go wrong with the Ares I launch vehicle. I also reviewed the design for the SpaceX Falcon 9 and the RpK K1 and others.
At the top of El Cap Nose, I don't just clipped the bomber bolts at the top of the overhang. I also run a rope up to the big tree before making the last haul. At Pinnacles I don't just clip the bomber bolts at the top of Portent before belaying novice friends, I also run a line around some bushes.
I have often been accused of overdoing it. Unfortunately several of those who criticized me in that way have since been killed. This is not a way in which I like being right.
I don't claim to know everything. I'm not sure how to process the fact that the one guy who thought I should be even more cautious on El Cap was Walt Shipley, in contrast to his partner, Dean Potter, who was impatient with me...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Rgold brought up the important point that worrying about one part of the system at the expense of the whole picture is a real concern. There has Never been a modern rap ring or biner failuer associated with rapelling.
If you are the guy insisting on adding a 2nd locking biner to the rapell but you don't wear a helmet then you are makeing a perfect example of doing something that does not increase your safty margin while at the same time ignoring something that does directly affect your saftey.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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There are a couple of threads here. There is what you choose to do with your gear and no duress. Under most climbing situations, there is no reason not to make it very safe. Deliberately construct a piece of art. If you come across rotting slings, bad anchor, worn link, you need to beef up the anchor or find another one.
Then there is what you are willing to do under less than ideal circumstances. You may be short gear or options. Of course you can rap off a single sling and a single link. You may not know how long that material has been there, what forces have been placed on that stuff, or how sound that anchor really is. But if time is crucial and no other options exist, it affords an option. That option may not be superior to staying put or moving to a different rap point. As more gear becomes more antique, our collective experience may change over time. I see too many people wearing links fast by top roping or lowering through them.
I prefer to "roll the dice" as infrequently as possible. I'd like to do this for more years. I also don't want my accident to interrupt your day or get the area closed to climbing. There is a long history of accidents closing areas to climbing and enhancing the reputation of the sport as reckless, so it may not be your hide and your partner's hide dealing with the consequences of your decisions.
The original question was very specific. Pointing out that there are other critical links is valid.
In the rescue application, single points are only used if the consequences of a failure are not catastrophic. In a steep, high angle, or swift water application, there are two ropes employed - the main line and the belay line. Using a classic w3p2 anchor in this situation is not relying on a single piece of webbing as there is a second rope system and anchor in play.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Find me a link, prove to me that a non grooved out rap ring or 5/16th and larger quick link has ever failed in a rap station. Show me proof that a single locking biner or a taped shut non locking biner has ever failed at a rap station.
Makeing a stink about adding extra links, biners and rings is a waste of brain power that could be better used strapping on a helmet, applying an auto block or looking at the back of the tree to see if rodents have chewed the crap out of the webbing.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Reminds me of how certain regulars distrust and back up belay loops.
But Todd Skinner died because of a failed belay loop. See ... !?! See ...!?!
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Medusa asked, "Do you rap off single links all day? "
I don't have any qualms about rapping off of steel rapid links.
I think that rapid links are very strong. Rapping puts very little stress on them and it is easy to test the set up before committing to it. It is easy to have backups in place for everyone but the last person. The last person can clean the backups so they don't run out of gear before the end of the canyon.
Canyons often get seasonal flows which ravage the anchors. So in lots of canyons the anchors have to be replaced at least once a year. Canyoneers tend to bring lots of new webbing to replace and upgrade anchors.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Darren would frown upon you
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middle joe
Trad climber
oc
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Besides redundancy (safety) having a second rapide makes the rope pull a lot easier.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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There has Never been a modern rap ring or biner failuer associated with rapelling.
I have no problem with a single, solid rap ring. But I have seen the lightweight, hollow, rap rings in places with traffic (not just obscure alpine). For instance, Gripper had two hollow rap rings at the top of the first pitch when I did it this spring.
I had thought there had been cases where these rap rings had worn through, created a sharp edge, and cut a rope. No?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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from middlejoe
My advice: practice “Last man at risk” in the canyons. Back-up the existing anchor to whatever extent you deem necessary/safe. The last man down, your most experienced (or maybe the lightest canyoneer, depending on the situation), breaks down the redundant anchor and raps on the existing anchor.
That's the way I was taught by a couple of guys who'd done early repeats of Salathe Wall and Muir Wall routes. Also a number of alpine climbs including first ascents in Sierras, Canada and Andes.
They key to the safe redundancy is to rig the backup so that it's NOT QUITE holding any rappel load. This way you're testing the non-redundant anchor you're going to leave behind. Obviously you want as little slack as possible to reduce the fall factor if the primary fails suddenly
It usually only takes a minute or two to rig the backup. and less to unrig it when the last climber goes down.
My routine is to
1: rig the final rap anchor, the "real" one
2: thread the rope
3:one climber untangles, stacks, etc then throws the rope.
At the same time, the other climber rigs the backup and gets everything ready for the first rap.
Step 3A: BOTH climbers double check everything. No one goes until all understand and are happy with the anchor.
4: As first climber raps, second keeps an eye on the rap anchor. Does the anchor shift? Does anything look amiss?
5: next to last climber reaches the ground and test-pulls the rope to be sure it's not hung up anywhere
6: last one down cleans the backup and goes on the primary rap anchor.
Since you've observed the primary anchor hold at least one rap you have some additional confidence that it will hold. And you haven't left any extra gear behind.
When rapping I always slow all my thinking down, concentrate on what I'm doing and do not rush. Having a set routine helps. Previewing it with your partner is a good idea.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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I remember a kid leaving my shop and calling him an accident waiting to happen.
two years later he came in, in a wheelchair without the use of his legs.
He lowered off of Pt. Dume with a single sling as he was in a "hurry,"
his trip was faster than expected as his too quickly tied with too short ends water knot pulled through as it was loaded, he watched it happen as he started to lower. A single sling.
a lifelong loss.
edit: and those rescue guys??? i wouldn't want most of them near me, meaning not the socal guys, just the crew in Yos, or sierra madre, the rest, no thanks!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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What is it with this place lately?
I thought iwannadie.com was a direct link to rockclimbing.com.
Did the DNS records suddently get re-directed over to here?
Did someone flush the toliet (err I mean the cache)?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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August west. If a biner, rap ring rapide etc gets grooved out that is a whole different story. I tripple dare you to find me a link to a failed MODERN rap ring in good condition that failed under rappelling loads.
If someone is dumb enough to lower on a sling with no biner/ring , etc. they are gonna die. same thing goes for sharp edges, sun faded slings, bad bolts and crap pins. etc.
Rap rings , rapides and locking biners will not break while rapelling unless they are completly grooved out. I superglue the collars on lockers when I fix them as rap anchors or I tape the gate shut. Same thing goes for a non locking biner. One is fine but I tape the gate shut.
If you insist on useing 2 new rap rings instead of 1 you have done absolutly zero to improve your saftey. Half the time the folks who get all anal about useing 2 rings and are afraid to use the EDK screw up a bunch of other basic stuff that they don't even think of that would actually keep them safer.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I saw a presentation tonight on canyoneering in southern Utah.
Let's just say that they do things very differently, when it comes to anchors and such. The spelunkers, too - aka the climbing underground.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Stizzo. Garunteedd your tow strap came into contact with used jumper cables. So the tow strap = the rope. Do you use 2 independantly anchored ropes? Be realistic in what you are afraid of.
I have seen plenty of folks happy as a clam because there are 2 big fat rapides on completrly rotten sun faded tat bundle....
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ExtraBlue
Ice climber
the ford VT
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Leaving a Biner???
Why?
You have slings and ropes right?
I never understand people who rap off trees and leave gear on it, its like rapping off a V-Thread and leaving a biner up there.
Unless you are rapping out of a nut there really isn't much reason to leave a bail 'biner.
1. Wrap the rope around the tree.
2. Rap
3. Pull Rope
same with V-Threads etc.
If you are faced with a horn or small natural pro,
1. Sling it
2 Thread the rope through the sling
3. rap
4. pull rope
As to the first poster what does the tree look like?
If it is a four foot wide oak, thats alive, and with unexposed roots, then of course you can rap from it, you can probably top rope from it too.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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1. Wrap the rope around the tree.
2. Rap
3. Pull Rope Overall, a good way to kill the tree, sooner or later.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Tradman,
Yea, I agree. If I was the first to use a single, alpine rap ring, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
But as far as a rap ring in good condition, the hollow ones don't stay that way very long. And these alpine rings are modern (as far as I know they are still for sale?).
And on a different note, it isn't even the rap ring that I am afraid of failing. Rather it is the rope after it gets shredded (which would probably happen when the rope is pulled). And it would be dumb to use the ring if a sharp edge is showing. But I could well believe a scenerio where the ring looks ok, but pulling the rope creates enough of an edge to damage the rope.
In any case, I wish climbers wouldn't leave them in places with traffic.
cheers
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I've been using the fat (and phat) Omega-Pacific solid aluminum ring a lot recently... trust just one of those no problem...
as for a single sling, well there is no reason, really, to do that, and it's just stacking the deck in your favor to have a redundant setup.
We all have stories, those of us that have spent time out there, of rapping off of some sketch anchor. Death isn't guaranteed if you go down that road infrequently, but the probabilities start racking up if you're a frequent flyer, and the trip you take with your miles may not be quite what you bargained for...
...I once wrote a complaint to Patagonia for a beautiful catalog picture of some retreat off of some alpine peak where the rap anchor was obviously a single piece (and everyone was wearing Patagonia gear). They could have cropped that out of the ad, no problem... I said "we all do it, but there is no reason to show it in your catalog, considering that it is looked at by lots of young climbers who may not know better." I don't know if they took my complaint to heart or not.
There are lots of young climbers and not so many mentors around anymore... looking at a picture like that is different from being there, where the balance between getting the hell out fast, and providing "just enough safety margin" to do it quickly is a part of the discussion leading to the "consensus anchor."
I remember getting off of Snowpatch Spire in the Bugs one summer, in a rain/sleet/snow storm... I made the mistake at a rap station to put my hand on the single, fixed, Lost Arrow piton, to feel it flexing as my mates descended. And then it was my turn... smooth as butter and eyes fixed on that anchor, I lied to myself promising never to do it again...
Setting up a good anchor should be the normal process. Redundant and over-engineered. Vary only when it's likely that the process would put you at greater risk than cutting corners. And make sure that everyone involved has a say...
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I made the mistake at a rap station to put my hand on the single, fixed, Lost Arrow piton, to feel it flexing as my mates descended. I was thinking of a similar situation last evening. A friend and very accomplished young climber nearly died on a "standard" high mountain rap route when his single pin rap anchor failed and sent him a long way down the couloir. Prompt helicopter evacuation saved his life. The resulting injuries effectively ended his climbing career.
Rappelling is one of the few times in roped climbing where an equipment failure will almost always have catastrophic consequences.
An extra sling here, a rap ring there. A few bucks well spent.
I always carry a rap ring and a tied sling (not sewn) to leave behind if necessary.
Double check everything before you weight the system (always, especially when in a hurry).
Regarding the original topic: I don't hesitate to trust a good looking rap ring or biner. I never trust one piece of webbing. I backup the rappel until the last one down if there's any question of trust. I'll leave behind whatever gear I feel is needed.
The rope around the tree anchor is definitely frowned upon in Yosemite and should be in any other well traveled climbing area. Quite a few trees (even big ones) have been killed in the Valley by pulling the rap ropes and eventually cutting through the bark.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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I think so much blind faith is misplaced when it comes to an aluminum ring. It may be good for 1000's of rappels or top rope falls but eventually fatigue is going to make barely visible cracks, unbeknownst to the next party. I'm all for doubling up as many things as possible.
If the probability of something failing is 1 out of 100,000, using 2 makes it not 2x safer but 100,000 times safer. Doubling up makes it exponentially safer, p^2.
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedr Woolley, WA
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The Chief: Do you still have a picture of that manky Juniper we rapped off at Whitney Portal during the thunderstorm BITD? Post that one, scared the sh*t out of me!!! Hehehe
Thor
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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It is a real eye opener to get involved in testing aluminum aerospace components. Bead-blasting the surface followed by dye-penetrate testing will show up serious cracks that are otherwise completely invisible to your eye.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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If you are not comfortable testing your gear in the field in a pragmatic manner you are always going to be afraid if things are not exactly the way you have been taught or are used to. If you do know how to test things in the field, then you are better able to improvise and deal with changing conditions.
If you are descending a climbing route there are few reasons not to have redundant anchors and slings. If it is a trade route, put in two or more bolts with chains. Having two rap rings or quick links means safer and the rope pulls easier.
Coming off a big mountain brings up other questions. Do you have enough gear to get all the way down? How can you leave the minimum amount of gear and still be safe? How can you test marginal anchors without killing yourself? How can you put the least amount of stress on your anchors?
Canyoneering brings up a variety of similar additional questions. How many raps might there be in this canyon? How much webbing and how many rapids should I bring? If I bring a bolt kit, how many bolts do I bring? Do I trust anchors that I find from previous parties? Do I rebuild the existing anchors or use some of them?
I have placed double bolts and chains in canyons and come back the next year to find the chains eroded to nothing. What was left of the chains was like toothpicks! Do I trust the bolts or add new ones every year? How can I test them in the field?
In many areas bolts are not used in canyons. Anchors are built from what is available each year. Weird maybe, but it is an interesting game and an interesting art. Suppose you come into a canyon with no bolts but you bring 150 feet of brand new webbing. You do a few drops where good anchors are 5 to 10 feet back from the lip. You decide to double up the webbing for redundancy. If you use loops you just used 50 feet of webbing for an anchor 10 feet back from the lip. If you tie off the webbing around the anchor, then run it single strand (gasp! Horror!) out to the lip, maybe you only use 15 to 20 feet of webbing for a non redundant anchor sling. What if the anchor is 15 or 20 feet back from the lip and you think there might be another 10 or 15 raps to go?
If you are worried about brand new webbing failing and you don't know how to test if it will hold the body weight forces encountered in rappelling, you could..... post on supertopo!
But seriously. On rock climb rappel routes the slings and rings might be there for years and there is seldom a reason to not back things up. In many canyons the anchors won't be there next year and have to be rebuilt fresh. You are going to be trusting whatever gear you brought in and whatever anchors you build yourself. It is just a different situation. The same basic principles apply, but some of the rules of thumb are different.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> If the probability of something failing is 1 out of 100,000, using 2 makes it not 2x safer but 100,000 times safer. Doubling up makes it exponentially safer, p^2.
Only if the risks are independent, and there are no other anchor components to fail.
[I do agree that double ring failure is independent, but the other components are important].
2 rings on a slung dead bush do not decrease chances of failure significantly, because the bush failing is a higher probability than the rings.
Say you have a dead bush with a .3 chance of failing, and a good sling with .00001 chance of failing (probably the true chance is < .00001 ) .
3 ways to for the anchor to fail (assuming independence of risks):
1. bush fails, sling holds: Pr = .3*.99999
2. bush holds, sling fails: Pr = .7*.00001
3. both fail: Pr = .3*.00001 (maybe hard for both to fail at the same time!)
(the total probability of failure is slightly over .3 : .3000007 )
1 way the anchor holds:
4. both elements hold: Pr = .7*.99999 = (1 - .3000007)
If you add a second sling, Pr(anchor holds) = .7*.99999*.99999
so Pr(anchor fails) = 1 - .7*.99999*.99999 = .300014 .
Not significantly different from .3000007 , in my view.
More relevant - 2 cams behind the same flake are not too good if the flake is loose and peels off. (It happened to J at the base of South By Southwest; and it nearly happened to me there, but when I tested the cams, I saw the flake visibly expand).
So you try to place gear in an independent crack (sometimes none is available), and test.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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Clint is on track for what I have been trying to say. Don't get all anal about the rings if the webbing sucks or the tree is bunk. The rings are the least of your worries. BTW I would bet my lifes saveings that the failure rate for modern rap rings in actual rapelling situations is mopre like 1 in 10 million, not one in 100,000. Adding a 2nd rap ring to prevent something that has never happened.....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Who doesn't rap off of single links all day?
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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nutjob wrote:I'd have a heart attack rapping off a single rap-ring.
Didn't we do it? If I'm leaving it, I'll happily rap off a single thin aluminum rap ring and single fresh 9/16" sling. I could remember wrong, but I thought we did. Of course I'll rap of a used one too, but that may not be a stellar idea.
Ed Hartouni wrote: I've been using the fat (and phat) Omega-Pacific solid aluminum ring a lot recently... trust just one of those no problem...
I tried those after getting low on the thin, light ones. 3x the weight according to online specs. This time I think I'll buy a mix of those and SMC rings...
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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What if you rapped off a single point with NO biner or ring?
Sling on a Horn. We lived.
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:53am PT
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Tho' I've never had to do it, somewhere I've seen suggestion to add a little tied loop of prusik cord as backup to single biner or ring. Doesn't take long to snip $0.39 worth of cordolette and tie a knot.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 06:04am PT
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> What if you rapped off a single point with NO biner or ring?
> Sling on a Horn. We lived.
Yes.
If I'm doing some multi-rap bail with no existing fixed anchors, I'm leaving slings and no rings or biners. I never carry rings except if I plan ahead of time to improve an existing fixed anchor. And a sling is fine for a single use rap. If it is a shared multiple use anchor, then a ring will keep the slings good for a longer time.
Some people think you can burn through a sling with one person rapping on different diameter ropes, because the rope slips through the sling due to differential stretch and/or diff. friction in the ATC. But awhile back, John Bouchard showed that you can't saw through a sling with a clean rope. With a muddy rope, you can do it, though. So I don't leave a ring or biner if it's a single-use anchor.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 10, 2010 - 06:25am PT
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Are those Dolt nuts? Surely he didn't use THOSE did he??
Are you kidding, one hole dolts and clogs are the mainstay of Larry's rack. I love climbing with him and seeing who can do the strangest protection possible.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:59am PT
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Stizzo. that is exactly my point. If you look at the history of rap anchor failures it is always the old slings failing, old bolts failing, old dog chain failing. Never once have I ever heard of a biner failing (rapelling)or a modern rap ring, 3/8th logging chain or 5/16th and larger rapide failing. Of course common sense dictates that if you find worn rings at a station you add a biner.
If we get to a station and the slings are good and it has a single locking biner or a single good ring and you feel the need to add a biner to the station that is fine. I will go last and clean that biner for you and I will live.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:05am PT
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It boils down to rational and irational fear.
You are hanging there 1,000ft off the deck and you look at that 3/8th" rapide that is strong enough to break your climbing rope and then some and you tell yourself that you are going to die. That is irational fear.
You look at the 50 year old bolts and 15 year old webbing that the rapide is attached to and you say, Self, we are gonna die! That is rational fear!
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedr Woolley, WA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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Skully is back!!! AAARRRGGG!!!
Thor
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SpeedyTaco
Mountain climber
Baldy
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:12am PT
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That would be my pic Chief posted awhile back. Nice eh?
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Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:42am PT
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I'm a big fan of "wrap 2, pull 2, tie it all in a big overhand"
viola - redundancy.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Mar 11, 2011 - 01:52am PT
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If you're going to bump the thread SpeedyTaco, I'm curious what the current consensus is regarding OP's hollow/rolled/coined rap rings is. They are (were?... not sure they still make them now that they went the forged route?) rated to 14kN, which is far more than a rap _should_ put on them and more than a single stopper would be rated at. Yet conventional wisdom seems to be always use 2 of them. I've never understood why this is, but given how little they cost never paid much mind to leaving the extra one. Has consensus changed now that gear manufacturers has seemingly moved to higher strength forged rings and has this impacted what's acceptable for a box-store quicklink?
Playing around with the puller the hollow rings seem go oval well before failure load, so personally I'm fine with a single one so long as it looks in decent condition. Then again, I'm fine with knotted webbing securely wedged behind a constriction, so YMMV.
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Mar 11, 2011 - 01:55am PT
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Man, I've rapped off of roots with a sling and biner. It's scary, which makes it all the more dicey.... Sometimes, you just gotta do whatcha gotta do to get off the mountain.
I got away with it, maybe luck, maybe not. Don't be skeard. Everybody gotta die sometime Red...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Mar 11, 2011 - 11:44am PT
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But awhile back, John Bouchard showed that you can't saw through a sling with a clean rope. With a muddy rope, you can do it, though. So I don't leave a ring or biner if it's a single-use anchor.
That's absolutely not true.
Doug Hansen (of Hansen Mountaineering fame) in Provo has a rigging video where he saws through a piece of one inch webbing with a climbing rope, by hand, in under a second. Sobering and a bit frightening to watch.
There also was a successful lawsuit by a gal here who was TR'd through a piece of webbing by her purported "experienced" partner. The sling cut through when she was lowered only a few feet, she plummetted to the ground, and was hurt fairly bad.
Its easy enough to replicate yourself at home. I've done it. Clean rope? No problem. Saws right through a sling in no time.
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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Tucker always voluteered to go first when we were doing single point rappeling in the dark with no headlamps.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Mar 11, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
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Face it, you trust a single biner when belaying and it's going to take more stress in a big leader fall than a biner holding a rappel,
Still, there's ways to have some back-up at low cost. Just a webbing loop that doesn't quite snug up to the rope can back up a single ring or biner and not use up too many resources needed for more raps.
Having back-up in for all but the last guy is a good step too.
The real killer than few have a back-up plan for is Fatigue and depletion. That's what makes you screw up and you're just as likely to crash your car on the drive home as on the rappels if you don't get real with yourself about if you're bonking. Keep eating and drinking if you've gone epic if you can.
Peace
Karl
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Mar 11, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
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When I was a landscaper, I used to cut 2'' PVC pipe with a string as fast as it could be cut with a saw.
It sounds improbable, but I compel you to try it.
Friction is friction.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Mar 11, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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I have rapped off a single point but only when I had to. Can only think of a few times and it seemed to be more common once I had mainly a cam rack. I was just to cheap to leave more than one of those suckers.
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disneyland freakshow
Trad climber
California
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Mar 11, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
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This tree was "on top" of the church bowl more to the left "Black is brown" area, though a bit out of the way from where most people would belay or rig anchors, id never noticed it and passed by that point daily, after some heavy rain there it was, sitting in the middle of the walk off, I wonder when it was last rapped off of.
Note no rap rings or biners, there was a slight burn from the rope on the underside.
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Auto-X Fil
Mountain climber
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Mar 17, 2011 - 09:59am PT
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Bomber! Well, bomber enough for one use.
Redundant? No. But, bomber tree, bomber sling, bomber knot.
It's "knott" gonna fail!
What's it look like after I pulled the rope? I dunno, but very few people rappel this route, so hopefully the next guy or girl climbing up cuts this off for me, like I did with some webbing left in a place I was able to downclimb.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Mar 17, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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Mank
At least they had two slings, but the bush is only 2 feet tall, and that single welded ring ain't made for climbing.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Mar 17, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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Somebody's gotta post that great paragraph from The Dancing Woo Li Masters.
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seth kovar
climber
Reno, NV
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Mar 17, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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Here is a good one, found on Bunny in the gunks...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Mar 17, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
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I remember watching the pitons flexing while I was hauling on the Regular Route on the NW on Half Dome. Can't remember which pitch exactly, but those aren't still there are they? It was around '98. That was freaky.
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