Separate Reality

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Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
Ed, did I sense frustration? I ask because I'm surprised. Weren't you voted as one of the most level-headed ST'ers a short while ago? (LEB and Werner were on the list too.)

I understand your frustration though. As much as we hope this is a climbers' forum -- nothing but climbing discussions, it's really not. We can't control what other people write (not a good idea anyway). We only have control over what we read. What one skips over could make another person's good read.

I'm guessing you are having a bad day at work. Did an atom fail to split, or should I say, separate?
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
Sorry for hijacking the thread. Here is a story sort of related to the climb Separate Reality. I myself have never been on it, never seen it, and never thought I should have anything to do with it. But from what I gather, this climb requires a specific set of techniques and strength (the kind that is only required on hard climbs, you know). A friend of mine sent this climb on his second try, but he had trouble on a 5.9 that even I could do. Since he laughed about it himself, I figured he wouldn't mind me talking about it here. Thought it was funny.

In a recent issue of Climbing mag, Heinz Zak (?) mentioned he sought out a specific type of roof cracks while training for Separate Reality. (He freesoloed it at the age of 46.)

Anyway, Gripper, let us know what you think if you ever find and get on it (of course, with the help of this informative thread). It's always nice to hear first-hand experiences.
malabarista

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Nov 8, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
I've always found the academic approach to shamanism very dry, and not good at really teaching people about it. This websight, although a bit of a slog, provides an interesting angle:

http://www.hawaiian.net/~larryw/html/shaman.html
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
Mei,

I am really glad you posted what you did because on some level I always tred a fine line between chatting with folks who might like talking with me and crashing someone's party where I don't belong. I have a unique position here in that I am the only one who truly does not have a "right" to be here. I really don't want to crash anyone's party and make anyone unhappy with my being some place. On the other hand this forum *is* intersting and I have never been on a forum before so I do not have any place to readily jump ship.

When I read Ed's remarks I began thinking - "maybe I really don't belong here when it gets to the point that *even Ed* is annoyed with me." I am thinking "Why am I bothering these people - Like don't they have a right to be left in peace." I was actually beginning to feel very guilty about being here until I read your remarks. Whew!!! Maybe I don't have to leave just yet. Maybe *somebody* wants me here.

If it ever gets to the point where even Werner does not want me here, then Man I am out of here! Having Werner get annoyed with your participation would be like learning there is no Santa Claus. Got to tell you, Werner, *that* would do it for me. I vote that Ed was just having a bad day (I hope). We all have them.

Lois
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:07pm PT
oops :)
BeBe

Sport climber
Phoenix
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:17pm PT
LEB-
This one is for you!!!

There will come a time when everybody
Who is lonely will be free...
TO SING & DANCE & LOVE


There will come a time when every evil
That we know will be an evil...
THAT WE CAN RISE ABOVE


Who cares if hair is long or short
or sprayed or partly grayed...
WE KNOW THAT HAIR AIN'T WHERE IT'S AT


(there will come a time when you won't
even be ashamed if you are fat!)


WAH WAH-WAH WAH


There will come a time when everybody
Who is lonely will be free...
TO SING & DANCE & LOVE (dance and love)


There will come a time when every evil
that we know will be an evil...
THAT WE CAN RISE ABOVE (rise above)


Who cares if you're so poor you can't afford
To buy a pair of Mod A Go-Go stretch-elastic pants...
THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN YOU CAN EVEN
TAKE YOUR CLOTHES OFF WHEN YOU DANCE

Frank said it better than anyone. I think you are awesome! Don't ever give up on this site or its freakshow.
kevin Fosburg

Sport climber
park city,ut
Nov 8, 2005 - 07:44pm PT
This thread has reminded me of a backburner project over there, The Yucky Way of Knowledge. Gotta get on it.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
Please understand that Mondays are usually bad days because it is an "all meeting day" at work (if I were failing to split atoms it would be preferable to management tasks) but also it is usually the day after coming back from the Valley.

But not to let Lois off the hook, and it is important that Werner wasn't annoyed... climbing culture is a part of this site, and hijacking the thread "Separate Reality" would be forgivable in another context, but in the climbing culture context Gripper was actually asking a very specific question: "where the hell is the climb?"; NOT let's discuss the Hopi way of enlightenment, an interesting topic in and of its own right... and maybe even preferable to the nuts-and-bolts of how to locate a climb... but perhaps I was just frustrated by the chaff-to-wheat ratio in some of the threads.

So sorry... far be it from me to dicate who should post and who shouldn't... but to some extent, the context of the forum should be respected.
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 08:58pm PT
Post Valley Depression.

In Lois' words, we all have them :-)

(I'm guilty of hijacking the thread too. Sorry.)
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:00pm PT
Ed,

But you missed the point! I did not REALIZE I was hiijacking because I misunderstood what he was asking. I thought he was asking about "alternative reality" in the context I was referencing. If you recall, I made reference to that term in a bantering thread with Juan so it was not inconceivable to me that he could be referencing that.

If I knew it was a climbing term and that he was discussing a bonafide climbing topic, I would have *never* honed in. When he wrote "no wisecracks" I thought he was truly inquiring about alternative reality and didn't want to make a joke about it.

It was an *honest error.* I don't typically go around intruding myself into your climbing threads. I don't even read them. I typically participate in only one or two threads at any given time and virtually ignore eveything else

Ed, you have to remember that I already feel like perhaps I should not be here in the first place but I like you guys so I stick around. This site is also far more interesting typically then what it is that I am already doing on the computer which often is grading papers and online exams, reading student discussion comments, entering information in online gradebooks, counseling students, etc. for the three online courses which I am teaching. That is why I am typically on the computer all day anyway. I am teaching 17 credits this semester.

When you make a comment as you did, it makes me feel like I am imposing on people which is something I try never to do in life.
When someone insults me, it does not particularly phase me. I can deal with that. When someone makes me feel suspect that I am harming them in some way, then I get to feeling guilty and that truly motivates me.

Lois
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:11pm PT
Good idea, Werner. I'll take it out. Smart man. I am loathed to think that anyone is truly nasty but I am ever always somewhat naive. I will go with your judgment. Thanks!

Lois
WBraun

climber
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:11pm PT
Why would someone belay under the roof? The belay is on the ledge. To make it easier?

This photo I don't understand .....
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
'cause it looked good on the T-shirt?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:33pm PT
"Why would someone belay under the roof?"

'Cause that's the way they did it in the Yosemite Climber photo?

Pretty silly, gotta admit.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 8, 2005 - 10:26pm PT
Jerry, didn't wear a helmet.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2005 - 11:10pm PT
Werner: "Even though each LSD trip ended in depression..."

Must have been a bad batch or a different personal neurochemistry as I've never had that experience...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:28am PT
LEB - let me first say that I do not read all of the posts in SuperTopo, especially those involving Juan/Jeff/Batten/Rockstar/etc/etc... just not enough time. I don't often read all of your posts. I don't assume that people read all of mine. However, I have tried to keep my posts focused on climbing, though the evolution thread got me going, and I can always be lured into discussing issues in science.

My frustration was that to a climber the thread topic is relatively obvious, especially the climbers looking at this site. I recognized immediately that you thought the thread was about something else, and something that people find interesting, people posting on this thread find interesting. Whether or not you feel that you "fit in here" is really up to you, as far as I can see, you are welcome to stay and post. You've been treated pretty kindly, all in all, for this crew. I think it is your own choice.

"Separate Reality" is a difficult climb, a test piece to some. And while other climbs that exist now are harder, it stands as a test to climbers. The story of how it was climbed reveals a lot about climbing and climbers, and about particular climbers and their vision. It is something that I think you missed when there was a discussion about what climbers get out of climbing, something that I believe is a unique and very different experience than hiking, though that has it's moments too.

As Werner said, every climb has a secret to unlock, its not just a physical secret, but that is a part of it, mostly it is a mental secret, how do you get your body to make a sequence of moves in a situation most people would consider dangerous as well as physically challenging. No matter what the difficulty, every climb presents that sort of a problem to every climber... some of the secrets are easy to unlock, others take a long time. In the article "Lucille" Jaybro described a 10 year project on a very difficult climb, 10 years to "unlock the secrets". Every climber faces their limit, and must come to grips with it and recognize it. "Try? There is no try. There is only do or not do"
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:37am PT
healyje,

some people can use LSD and other psychodelics with relative impunity. It has a penchant, however, for bringing out latent schizophrenia and/or extreme manic-depression. Now one might argue that these pathologies were going to manifest sooner or later anyway but who can say for sure. One will never know.

Of the various recreational drugs which are commonly used, this one has the potential to cause significant and sometimes irreversible damage to the affect and thought processes within an individual. I do agree that many can and have experimented and come out relatively unscathed. For those who have the latent disorders which subsequently become debilitating, one will never know if the person might otherwise have never experienced these states.

As one who had lived for 10 years with a man who believed he could use all manner of recreational drugs with impunity, I would say there is truly no such thing. He did not make a very pretty picture when one April, many moons ago, I found him accidentally OD'd several days after he died. Devestated my life for many years to follow and cheated him out of life itself.

People "gotta do what they gotta do" and far be it for me to preach otherwise. But this is one subject not to be cavelier about. I'll also tell you this, after he died, in the seven or eight years of dating various men until I found another suitable mate, I wouldn't touch another man who did drugs (anything more than pot, that is) with a 10 foot pole. Too much grief when they die and once was quite enough for me to live through that one!
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 9, 2005 - 12:42am PT
Ed, after reading your fascinating post it seems to me that "separate reality" and "alternative reality' are not so far apart after all. When viewed in the classic context of native american spiritulism, it seems they may well be opposite sides of the same coin. Very interesting topic which you have outlined - and very enlightening as well. Thanks for that information. I believe it revealed a great deal.

Lois
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