Separate Reality

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Gripper

Mountain climber
Nor. Calif.
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 7, 2005 - 05:50pm PT
Where exactly is Separate Reality? (Save the wisecracks)
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
In the Castaneda section at Boarders.

Hahaha

Just below one of the turnouts on 120.
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
You can see it from the turnouts at Pat and Jack Pinnacle at Cascade creek,on highway 140, look near the rim there. Just below it you will also see “Tales of Power” .

Ron Kauk during those times did read Castaneda’s books extensively and thus the names.

He found “Separate Reality” after leading the Tales of power. We never saw the big roof until Ron actually climbed the pitch below (Tales of Power). We always approached from below, which was a real bitch to get to.

Now you can rappel into the climbs from above on the east end of the long tunnel on highway 120 about a mile up the road from Reeds climbing area.

LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:36pm PT
Do you mean separate reality or do you mean alternative reality?
Clayman

Trad climber
CA, now Flagstaff
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:40pm PT
drive to the second tunnel on 120. there is a prominent tourist pullout. park there, walk to the very start of the tunnel, hope the wall, look for a steep downhil trail. you can see the crack from above on a big white slab. its killer.
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:41pm PT
"Separate Reality"
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 7, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
Oh, I can't help him out there. If he wanted to talk about "alternative reality" then I could.
Ouch!

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
One of her other identities. :-))
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 7, 2005 - 09:07pm PT
LEB - very strange for you to post to this thread... what would you have to add to a rather specific climbing question. And after all, this is a forum for climbers (though climbing seems less and less the subject of the threads these days).

If you Google "separate reality yosemite" you will have to go to the fourth page to find a reference to something other than the famous climb Werner refers to and everyone who is a serious climber would know.

Why post in this thread? what is your point?
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 7, 2005 - 09:11pm PT
Ed wrote..."Why post in this thread? what is your point?"............LEB is a Troller...
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 7, 2005 - 09:37pm PT
Ed,

I thought he was referring to "alternate reality" which is a very specific term pertaining to Native American Spiritualism. I have never heard of "separate reality" Since Werner did ask me about alternative reality, however, I am planning to answer his question. It was a simple misunderstanding - nothing more sinister.

So Werner, as long as I am going to answer your question (shortly) about "alternative reality" what is this "separate reality" to which they (Ed and Locker) are referring. Can you fill me in? Thanks

Lois
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
Gripper...
here is a visual to go with Werner's and Clayman's description

LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
Werner, you asked me about alternative reality - well here goes...... Micheal Harner, world reknown expert on Shamanism gives a “quick and dirty” explanation of alternate reality as it applies to Native American Spiritualism during his answer to an interview question which asks "How is an altered state of consciousness achieved in shamanism?"

Harner states the following:
In about 90% of the world, the altered states of consciousness used in shamanism are attained through consciousness-changing techniques involving a monotonous percussion sound, most typically done with a drum, but also with sticks, rattles, and other instruments. In perhaps 10% of the cultures, shamans use psychedelic drugs to change their state of consciousness.

I was introduced to shamanic work in 1961 among the Conibo Indians in eastern Peru, with the aid of native psychedelics. When I came back to the United States and no longer had my supply of ayahuasca, I experimented with drumming. Much to my surprise, it really worked. It should not have surprised me, because drums were reportedly used by shamans almost worldwide. Virtually everything you find in shamanism is done because it works. Over tens of thousands of years, shamans developed the most time-tested system of using the spirit, mind, and heart for healing, along with plant remedies, and so on. Again, the system is time-tested. So if healers in 90% of the shamanic cultures are using the same methods, we pay attention to them. And, of course, we find they work.

To get back to the extraction technique: the technique involves an altered state of consciousness and seeing into the client's body. Much shamanic work, including journeying and extraction, is done in darkness for a very simple reason. The shaman wishes to cut out the stimuli of ordinary reality- light, sound, and so on-and move into unseen reality. The shaman learns to look in the body with "x-ray vision" and see the illness and its location, and then to extract that illness..

The link wherein the above interview appears can be found as follows: http://www.shamanism.org/articles/857415539.htm#5

For a more in depth discussion of Shamanism and alternative reality, the following link should be very informative

http://faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/Shamans.htm

As for my own views, I find the study of Native American spiritualism very fascinating. There are some experts who draw parallels between Native American spiritualism and Zen Buddhism. Chief among these persons is one Joan Halifax Roshi, founder of the Upaya Zen Center. The website for her organization is http://www.upaya.org/

On personal level, I have heard Dr. Hallifax Roshi lecture several times and it was most interesting. Before I became a nurse practitioner in primary care, I was the head nurse on an HIV unit within a large inner city medical center during the mid to late 1980s.

It was particularly difficult during that time frame because the disease was relatively new and we were not prepared for all the issues which came up in that context. In particular, issues concerning death and dying would surface continually and it was helpful to have some framework in this context. We couldn’t change the fact that our patients (most of whom were quite young in their 20s and 30s) were dying but at least sometimes we could help a patient find some meaning to that experience. Sometimes all you could offer someone was a chance to sit and talk about these perspectives but then sometimes that was enough.

Lois
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:09pm PT
Lois

The popular belief at the time was that all people were caught on one side of a dual reality. So, through the use of mind-expanding drugs such as LSD, marijuana, and peyote, which strove to reach a kind of separate, utopian reality which was felt within the grasp of the user. By using these hallucinogens , people strove to achieve a sense of oneness with the universe. Even though each LSD trip ended in depression, It always experienced a few beautiful moments when the world became amazingly colorful and ever changing. It came to believe that ever-new and animated, albeit imaginary, perceptions of the world, were an ultimate reality in themselves-and that the user became the orchestrate of that reality. This led one to believe that he/she was not the body, but the all-pervading God, the supreme creator and controller.

Thus it is a reality that leads to fall down and spiritual suicide …..Mayavadi consciousness.

"The ambitious Mayavadi philosophers desire to merge into the existence of the Lord, and this may be accepted as sayujya-mukti. However this form of mukti means denying ones individual existence. In other words it is a kind of spiritual suicide.

The separate reality was a rock climb that was at the time, one of the hardest crack climbs in the country, inspired by a spiritual consciousness.

Ron did not do drugs.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
LEB - why don't you forget about "alternate reality"... I'd rather hear Werner talk about the climb "Separate Reality", and you can listen along.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
Ed, that is fine with me but Werner specifically asked me to explain "alternative reality" I am all ears about his "separate reality."

Lois
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2005 - 10:36pm PT
Chuckling and laughing ....at the above

Lois on every climb there is a secret door, actually it's not so secret as every climber knows it's there. Everyone is looking to open that door of perception to understand the truth to the desire of his/her actions.

Just try more to soak up the dialogue of the technical aspects of the climbing subjects being discussed here so you don't get caught in the crossroads of misunderstanding with these folks.

For a non (especially rock climber) on this site one can easily become bewildered by some of the conversations.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 8, 2005 - 11:06am PT
on the other hand, the book "Seperate Reality,"had a lot to do with what LEB & Werner were saying.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Nov 8, 2005 - 11:17am PT
thank you LEB and Werner. Like the thread.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 11:31am PT
To nitpick slightly, the book title is "A Separate Reality", by Carlos Castaneda:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671732498/103-5197179-7631860?v=glance

(not that I've read it).

Separate Reality = the classic long roof crack done by Kauk which became more widely known by the photo of Ray Jardine doing it on the cover of Mountain magazine.

Alternative Reality = a long hand traverse crack Joel and I did at a secret area! :-) Thanks for the real definition, Lois.
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 02:27pm PT
Ed, did I sense frustration? I ask because I'm surprised. Weren't you voted as one of the most level-headed ST'ers a short while ago? (LEB and Werner were on the list too.)

I understand your frustration though. As much as we hope this is a climbers' forum -- nothing but climbing discussions, it's really not. We can't control what other people write (not a good idea anyway). We only have control over what we read. What one skips over could make another person's good read.

I'm guessing you are having a bad day at work. Did an atom fail to split, or should I say, separate?
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 02:30pm PT
Sorry for hijacking the thread. Here is a story sort of related to the climb Separate Reality. I myself have never been on it, never seen it, and never thought I should have anything to do with it. But from what I gather, this climb requires a specific set of techniques and strength (the kind that is only required on hard climbs, you know). A friend of mine sent this climb on his second try, but he had trouble on a 5.9 that even I could do. Since he laughed about it himself, I figured he wouldn't mind me talking about it here. Thought it was funny.

In a recent issue of Climbing mag, Heinz Zak (?) mentioned he sought out a specific type of roof cracks while training for Separate Reality. (He freesoloed it at the age of 46.)

Anyway, Gripper, let us know what you think if you ever find and get on it (of course, with the help of this informative thread). It's always nice to hear first-hand experiences.
malabarista

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Nov 8, 2005 - 02:47pm PT
I've always found the academic approach to shamanism very dry, and not good at really teaching people about it. This websight, although a bit of a slog, provides an interesting angle:

http://www.hawaiian.net/~larryw/html/shaman.html
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 03:01pm PT
Mei,

I am really glad you posted what you did because on some level I always tred a fine line between chatting with folks who might like talking with me and crashing someone's party where I don't belong. I have a unique position here in that I am the only one who truly does not have a "right" to be here. I really don't want to crash anyone's party and make anyone unhappy with my being some place. On the other hand this forum *is* intersting and I have never been on a forum before so I do not have any place to readily jump ship.

When I read Ed's remarks I began thinking - "maybe I really don't belong here when it gets to the point that *even Ed* is annoyed with me." I am thinking "Why am I bothering these people - Like don't they have a right to be left in peace." I was actually beginning to feel very guilty about being here until I read your remarks. Whew!!! Maybe I don't have to leave just yet. Maybe *somebody* wants me here.

If it ever gets to the point where even Werner does not want me here, then Man I am out of here! Having Werner get annoyed with your participation would be like learning there is no Santa Claus. Got to tell you, Werner, *that* would do it for me. I vote that Ed was just having a bad day (I hope). We all have them.

Lois
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 03:07pm PT
oops :)
BeBe

Sport climber
Phoenix
Nov 8, 2005 - 03:17pm PT
LEB-
This one is for you!!!

There will come a time when everybody
Who is lonely will be free...
TO SING & DANCE & LOVE


There will come a time when every evil
That we know will be an evil...
THAT WE CAN RISE ABOVE


Who cares if hair is long or short
or sprayed or partly grayed...
WE KNOW THAT HAIR AIN'T WHERE IT'S AT


(there will come a time when you won't
even be ashamed if you are fat!)


WAH WAH-WAH WAH


There will come a time when everybody
Who is lonely will be free...
TO SING & DANCE & LOVE (dance and love)


There will come a time when every evil
that we know will be an evil...
THAT WE CAN RISE ABOVE (rise above)


Who cares if you're so poor you can't afford
To buy a pair of Mod A Go-Go stretch-elastic pants...
THERE WILL COME A TIME WHEN YOU CAN EVEN
TAKE YOUR CLOTHES OFF WHEN YOU DANCE

Frank said it better than anyone. I think you are awesome! Don't ever give up on this site or its freakshow.
kevin Fosburg

Sport climber
park city,ut
Nov 8, 2005 - 04:44pm PT
This thread has reminded me of a backburner project over there, The Yucky Way of Knowledge. Gotta get on it.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 05:39pm PT
Please understand that Mondays are usually bad days because it is an "all meeting day" at work (if I were failing to split atoms it would be preferable to management tasks) but also it is usually the day after coming back from the Valley.

But not to let Lois off the hook, and it is important that Werner wasn't annoyed... climbing culture is a part of this site, and hijacking the thread "Separate Reality" would be forgivable in another context, but in the climbing culture context Gripper was actually asking a very specific question: "where the hell is the climb?"; NOT let's discuss the Hopi way of enlightenment, an interesting topic in and of its own right... and maybe even preferable to the nuts-and-bolts of how to locate a climb... but perhaps I was just frustrated by the chaff-to-wheat ratio in some of the threads.

So sorry... far be it from me to dicate who should post and who shouldn't... but to some extent, the context of the forum should be respected.
Mei

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 8, 2005 - 05:58pm PT
Post Valley Depression.

In Lois' words, we all have them :-)

(I'm guilty of hijacking the thread too. Sorry.)
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
Ed,

But you missed the point! I did not REALIZE I was hiijacking because I misunderstood what he was asking. I thought he was asking about "alternative reality" in the context I was referencing. If you recall, I made reference to that term in a bantering thread with Juan so it was not inconceivable to me that he could be referencing that.

If I knew it was a climbing term and that he was discussing a bonafide climbing topic, I would have *never* honed in. When he wrote "no wisecracks" I thought he was truly inquiring about alternative reality and didn't want to make a joke about it.

It was an *honest error.* I don't typically go around intruding myself into your climbing threads. I don't even read them. I typically participate in only one or two threads at any given time and virtually ignore eveything else

Ed, you have to remember that I already feel like perhaps I should not be here in the first place but I like you guys so I stick around. This site is also far more interesting typically then what it is that I am already doing on the computer which often is grading papers and online exams, reading student discussion comments, entering information in online gradebooks, counseling students, etc. for the three online courses which I am teaching. That is why I am typically on the computer all day anyway. I am teaching 17 credits this semester.

When you make a comment as you did, it makes me feel like I am imposing on people which is something I try never to do in life.
When someone insults me, it does not particularly phase me. I can deal with that. When someone makes me feel suspect that I am harming them in some way, then I get to feeling guilty and that truly motivates me.

Lois
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
Good idea, Werner. I'll take it out. Smart man. I am loathed to think that anyone is truly nasty but I am ever always somewhat naive. I will go with your judgment. Thanks!

Lois
WBraun

climber
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:11pm PT
Why would someone belay under the roof? The belay is on the ledge. To make it easier?

This photo I don't understand .....
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:18pm PT
'cause it looked good on the T-shirt?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 8, 2005 - 06:33pm PT
"Why would someone belay under the roof?"

'Cause that's the way they did it in the Yosemite Climber photo?

Pretty silly, gotta admit.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 8, 2005 - 07:26pm PT
Jerry, didn't wear a helmet.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2005 - 08:10pm PT
Werner: "Even though each LSD trip ended in depression..."

Must have been a bad batch or a different personal neurochemistry as I've never had that experience...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:28pm PT
LEB - let me first say that I do not read all of the posts in SuperTopo, especially those involving Juan/Jeff/Batten/Rockstar/etc/etc... just not enough time. I don't often read all of your posts. I don't assume that people read all of mine. However, I have tried to keep my posts focused on climbing, though the evolution thread got me going, and I can always be lured into discussing issues in science.

My frustration was that to a climber the thread topic is relatively obvious, especially the climbers looking at this site. I recognized immediately that you thought the thread was about something else, and something that people find interesting, people posting on this thread find interesting. Whether or not you feel that you "fit in here" is really up to you, as far as I can see, you are welcome to stay and post. You've been treated pretty kindly, all in all, for this crew. I think it is your own choice.

"Separate Reality" is a difficult climb, a test piece to some. And while other climbs that exist now are harder, it stands as a test to climbers. The story of how it was climbed reveals a lot about climbing and climbers, and about particular climbers and their vision. It is something that I think you missed when there was a discussion about what climbers get out of climbing, something that I believe is a unique and very different experience than hiking, though that has it's moments too.

As Werner said, every climb has a secret to unlock, its not just a physical secret, but that is a part of it, mostly it is a mental secret, how do you get your body to make a sequence of moves in a situation most people would consider dangerous as well as physically challenging. No matter what the difficulty, every climb presents that sort of a problem to every climber... some of the secrets are easy to unlock, others take a long time. In the article "Lucille" Jaybro described a 10 year project on a very difficult climb, 10 years to "unlock the secrets". Every climber faces their limit, and must come to grips with it and recognize it. "Try? There is no try. There is only do or not do"
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:37pm PT
healyje,

some people can use LSD and other psychodelics with relative impunity. It has a penchant, however, for bringing out latent schizophrenia and/or extreme manic-depression. Now one might argue that these pathologies were going to manifest sooner or later anyway but who can say for sure. One will never know.

Of the various recreational drugs which are commonly used, this one has the potential to cause significant and sometimes irreversible damage to the affect and thought processes within an individual. I do agree that many can and have experimented and come out relatively unscathed. For those who have the latent disorders which subsequently become debilitating, one will never know if the person might otherwise have never experienced these states.

As one who had lived for 10 years with a man who believed he could use all manner of recreational drugs with impunity, I would say there is truly no such thing. He did not make a very pretty picture when one April, many moons ago, I found him accidentally OD'd several days after he died. Devestated my life for many years to follow and cheated him out of life itself.

People "gotta do what they gotta do" and far be it for me to preach otherwise. But this is one subject not to be cavelier about. I'll also tell you this, after he died, in the seven or eight years of dating various men until I found another suitable mate, I wouldn't touch another man who did drugs (anything more than pot, that is) with a 10 foot pole. Too much grief when they die and once was quite enough for me to live through that one!
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
Ed, after reading your fascinating post it seems to me that "separate reality" and "alternative reality' are not so far apart after all. When viewed in the classic context of native american spiritulism, it seems they may well be opposite sides of the same coin. Very interesting topic which you have outlined - and very enlightening as well. Thanks for that information. I believe it revealed a great deal.

Lois
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
LEB - and so you get an idea of why this climb was named.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 8, 2005 - 10:10pm PT
Ed,

Yes! And it makes perfect sense to me. I think now I understand something which here-to-fore alluded me.

Lois
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 10:50pm PT
scavenging off the web

Walt Heenan, posted on rockclimbing.com


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 10:57pm PT
Photo by Michael Renner on the Sportgraphix.net site, but I don't know who the climber is...

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 11:06pm PT



Heinz Zak solos
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 11:09pm PT


Frank Gassmann, go to the http://www.zbs-ilmenau.de/~frank/henkelreisser/kletterbilder/bilder_yosemite.html site he has more...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 11:12pm PT


The Ray Jardine cover of Mountain 56 which fired our imaginations (on right) and Wolfgang Gullich, the first solo (?) which blew our minds.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 11:21pm PT


Some dude Gene, picture off the www.monsteroffwidth.com site... an interesting annotated table of my favorite climbing (offwidth) exists there for those exhibiting similar mental instablilities.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 11, 2005 - 04:56am PT
Ed - Very nice, post deleted and we'll stick to physical realities I guess...
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 11, 2005 - 04:59am PT
Ed,

YIKES!!!!!!!!

Lois
KarlP

Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
Nov 11, 2005 - 05:36am PT
Who's the soloist with the bandana?

I'm neither old enough nor hard enough to recognise people as easily as some...
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Nov 11, 2005 - 07:04am PT
Karl, I believe the guy soloing is Heinz Zak,
Eine Bayern Kletternmeister. He was the 2nd guy to solo it.

The first was another Ubermensch from the Fatherland who is no longer with us, R.I.P.

bergheil
Pat
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 11, 2005 - 07:50am PT
I couldn't find a picture of Kauk doing this, really unfortunate since it was his vision.. and I love that Zak picture of him doing it in blue jeans, with three pieces protecting the outer section of the crack.

Sorry if this provides too much beta... but the stylized pictures don't help with visualizing how to get in, how to belay, etc, etc... and in some ways, the over documentation reduces the visual drama of the climb. I think this is a good thing, since I'm sure when you are on it, your imagination will be running wild!

Gripper - when you go to do it, aspire to do it in the style of Jardine and Kauk, but in any case, report your adventure back here.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 11, 2005 - 08:00am PT
my imagination ran wild at the belay below. Approaching the lip, I was pretty narrowed to the present.
Bryce Breslin

climber
Oakland, California
Nov 11, 2005 - 10:44am PT

Non-sequitur? Maybe maybe not, but here goes. Crowley, a climber, was one of the originators of chaos magic. To call someone who solos Seperate Reality a chaos magician seems apposite. This info, off of Wikipedia, weds Ed's and LEB's interests, I think:

The Gnostic State

"This is defined as a special state of consciousness that in magic theory is what is necessary for working most forms of magic. This is a departure from older concepts which described energies, spirits or symbolic acts as the source of magical powers. The concept has an ancestor in the Buddhist concept of Samadhi, made popular in western occultism by Aleister Crowley and further explored by Austin Osman Spare.

The gnostic state is achieved when a person's mind is focused on only one point, thought, or goal and all other thoughts are thrust out.

Users of chaos magic each develop their own ways of reaching this state. All such methods hinge on the belief that a simple thought or direction experienced during the gnostic state and then forgotten quickly afterwards is sent to the subconscious rather than the conscious mind where it can be enacted through means unknown to the conscious mind.

Practitioners of chaos magic attempt to be outside of all categories - for them, worldviews, theories, beliefs, opinions, habits and even personalities are tools that may be chosen arbitrarily in order to understand or manipulate the world they see and create around themselves."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 11, 2005 - 12:07pm PT
"Soloing" - Does this (oft used) term mean climbing without the safety of ropes! (yikes!) Is the term synonomous with "free soloing?" If so, how long do free soloists typically live? While we are speaking of the use of ropes, how often do the ropes come into play - meaning how common is it to slip and thus have the ropes perform their intended purpose? Is slipping (and being saved by ropes) a fairly common event or is it more akin to the use of seat belts. We use seat belts regularly but 99.9 percent of the time, we never need them.

Also there is much talk about climbing "partners." Are partners necessary to use ropes meaning that to climb without a partner necessitates that the person climb without ropes? Also does "partners" mean "pairs" (two people) or does partners mean any multiple number of people

P.S. Is that man in the photo on the right side of the screen in Ed's post *literally* hanging from the rocks by his hands (with no safety ropes) !!!!!! Corollary question: is this man insane? Is he still alive?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Nov 11, 2005 - 12:28pm PT
Lois, in Ed's Nov 10 11:06 post that shows five pix in sequence, the climber in question is Heinz Zak (Austrian or German I'm not sure), and yes he is climbing without a rope - free soloing.

Ed's post of Nov 10 11:12 has two pix, the smaller on the left is from the cover of (a now defunct magazine) Mountain 56 and on the right is Wolfgang Gullich doing the first free solo of the route (the photo was taken by Heinz Zak). Unfortunately he died several years back. He was returning home from a radio interview in Munich when a drunk driver killed him. One of the top climbers in his day, it is more than just ironic that he should survive death defying feats only to die in such a way. Sad and RIP Wolfgang.

You can solo a route using a rope and self-belaying yourself, whereas free soloing is just you and the rock (and chalk bag and shoes) (and physical and, most importantly, mental strength).
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 11, 2005 - 12:35pm PT
So then "free soloing" *does* mean to climb without a rope and that man *was* literally hanging off a cliff!!? If I did not see it, I would not have believed it. It is surreaistic.

Could you please answer my other question. How often do the people slip and need the ropes to save them? It is common to slip or very rare (ala the seat belts analogy)
Bilbo

Trad climber
Truckee
Nov 11, 2005 - 01:21pm PT
There is a wet feeling in my palms?
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 11, 2005 - 01:27pm PT
Lois:

Soloing means climbing by yourself. Free soloing means climbing without a rope or some other sort of protection. The terms are not synonymous. Since free soloing is the more restrictive term, it almost always takes the modifier, free. Roped soloing is the norm, so the modifier is usually dropped. If a free solo climb is really hard, it is likely that the climber has done the route before. However, there are examples of free-solos of route that are on-sight, which means that the climber has not done the route before.

Free climbing means climbing the rock while using the equipment to protect yourself if you fall.

Aid climbing means using the equipment to get up the rock—these sorts of climbers are really nutso and tend to focus on the amount and quality of beer they can drink.

You have probably realized that there are different styles of climbing. In the ‘older’ style, the climber tried really, really hard not to fall--slip in your words. Originally this was because there was strong evidence that the ropes would fail, or the belayer—the person holding the other end of the rope—would drop you to your death. (This is called an accident, although some climbers refer to it as rancid karma (karl) or the natural result of the cycle of life and death (Werner). It is analyzed and written up in an annual report issued by the AAC. Generally it is a good idea not to climb with someone inclined to drop you on your head if you fall.)

Some of the posters on ST are from this ancient school of climbing. Soon they will die of natural causes. Although their bodies are still hard and sculpted, inside they are shriveled old men of the normal sort, inclined to post excessively on ST’s Forum about how great they used to be.

Younger climbers, starting in about 1975 or so, started developing much better gear to hold falls and they started falling more. If you think about how you learn to walk or ride a bike, generally you fall over, until you get it. It is the fastest way to learn. These young whipper-snappers, with total disregard for the natural order of climbing styles, surpassed their elders. The elders have been really, really pissed ever since. Eventually, the whole idea of lots of protection and the acceptance of lots of relatively harmless falls, became a sport—hence sport climbing. Some people have taken the whole falling is sport to extreme levels and just fall—they don’t climb, they just fall. This is not to be confused with the associated sport of falling down while drunk on the beer. This is not a sport—this is training for aid-climbers.

So to answer your question about how often climbers fall is difficult, and relative. A traditional climber on a run-out climb (that means that there are great distances between protection points) is not likely to fall, because it is risky. A sport climber will fall often, as part of the sport—go figure.

Lately the two styles of climbing have created super human climbers who are completing spectacularly hard all-free (quickie quiz time: What does all all-free mean?) climbs on tall boulders like El Capitan. The big to-do about Tommy Caldwell climbing both the 'Nose' and the 'Salathe' all free in one day is the most recent example of this. Please note that his partners—his wife Beth Rodden and our host Chris McNamara—belayed him with ropes to protect him if he fell (which he did, without consequence) and then they--Beth and Chris--climbed the ropes with special gear so that they could quickly get to the top of the pitch and allow Tommy to climb the next pitch. A pitch is the unit of measure that we use in climbing—it is exactly 46.57 meters long. (Quickie quiz: How long is a pitch?)

The Huber brothers, pictured in the "Bridwell how old are you really" thread--posted by Mike Graham, Gramicci, are also masters of this sort of very difficult climbing. The old guy in that picture, with the tectonic plate facial features, fake mustache and wig (who used to be younger at the top of that thread—threads can really age you) is one of the elders of our tribe. He is so old that we refer to him as “The Bird.” Note that we do not say “Bird.” We refer to him as ‘the’ Bird--you might write it this way: *the*. (Where does that period go, anyway?) This is in reference to his ability to fly and his penchant for plumage. Peter Haan has written about both of these abilities in a recent threads. (Quickie quiz: Who is “The Bird?”)

The term “partner,” refers to anyone who is climbing with you in any of the forms, although generally it means someone who is belaying you (Quickie quiz: What is the meaning of belay?). Sometimes, a partner does not climb with you, but instead meets you at the top to help you down. Sometimes, they stay at home and worry about you—thinking about the weather and risk that you are facing, while in fact you are doing what climbers most like to do, which is sit in the Mountain Room Bar drinking beer and talking.

Regarding you question about deaths from free-soloing (Quickie Quiz: What is the difference between free-soloing and soloing?), there are relatively few. Although it is very risky, people who do it are generally very well prepared. The famous climber, Wolfgang Gullich, who soloed “Separate Reality”, died in an auto accident. (Please note that I did not use the modifier ‘free’ when I said solo. This is a very famous climb, Gullich was a very famous climber, and his free-solo ascent of “Separate Reality,” has blown everyone away for years. Hence, we drop the ‘free’ since everyone—well almost everyone—interested knows that he didn’t use a rope. That’s why it’s a famous incident.)

TL,C-Roger
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 11, 2005 - 01:35pm PT
Lois - the ropes, as we use them, are there for protection in case something happens. If you are climbing at a level that you are reasonably sure that nothing is going to happen that will require the protection of the ropes you might go ahead and climb without the ropes. It cannot be explained easily, a poor analogy is how kids grow up... at first the parent is always there, walking on the street with the kid to make sure that the kid doesn't do anything fatal... and to teach the kid what to do and what not to do. Eventually everyone gets the feeling that the kid knows enough to go out on their own, without the need for parental protection. It is not to say that the risk has been reduced to zero, just that it has been reduced to a sufficiently low level that the parent and the kid feel ok, which is pretty damn low.

So with free soloing... the rope and the anchors and our belayer are the "parent" and we are the "kid", as you climb more and more with a rope you start to understand your limits, what you can and cannot do. Climbers will often say "climb like you don't have a rope", it is a statement encouraging awareness of the climb and focus of mind and body.

Once one can do this, it is a small step to actually climbing without a rope.

No one denies the consequences of failing to be immaculate in terms of motive and ability. People do die. But the risk is not reckless.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Nov 11, 2005 - 05:38pm PT
bump
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 11, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
Roger and Ed,

These commentaries are soooooo interesting. I need to read Roger's remarks over a few times to absorb everything. There is too much info packed in there to take it all in at once. One things stands out there, however, in Roger's commentary. What do you mean about the partner dropping them. Surely you cannot mean the partner is purposely letting them drop to a possible fatal end. I must be misunderstanding you else with partners like that, who would need enemies.

I am also not sure I understand why people *want* to fall. Surely you cannot mean falling so as to impact on hard rock. You must mean falling in a way which would cause the person to dangle - I am thinking they are doing something, then, like a modified bungie jump. I can't imagine people would fall as in fall to the ground or ledge and crack their heads open. I must be misunderstanding you. Are they falling or are they dangling from ropes and if the latter are they "dangling" off cliffs - yikes!

What to you mean by aid climbing i.e. using equipment to get up there. Surely they are not driving cherry pickers up the mountain. What kind of "equipment" are they using.

Finally, if I hear the term belay one more time, I think I shall scream. It is likely the most frequent term on this entire site. *What* in God's name is a belay. I have asked people, I have googled it...and yet, still nothing. In my mind I have this idea of someone nailing a metal peton into a rock, stringing rope through it and then holding the end so as to provide a counterweight if the person tied to the other end of the rope falls. I envision the peton above the person creating sort of a triangulation effect. In that way he (or she) would just "dangle" and not crash to the ground. I have a vision almost like a pulley system. Is this remotely correct in any way? Please (please!) explain what is a belay and preferably post a link to a photo of one. Thank you very, very much!

Thanks for you answers - Lois
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 11, 2005 - 08:17pm PT
Dear Lois:

I think that you have some good questions. I will take a stab at answering some, but I hope that others will chime in to help describe our sport.

Regarding falling for the purposes of dangling, this is one of the most sublime off shoots of rock climbing. It uses much of the same gear, but it reverses the general relationship with gravity. Climbers are mostly concerned with using the effects of gravity to keep their hands and feet pushing in a secure direction on the holds. Fortunately, gravity does not move around—sort of boring, in fact. But it is possible to do all sorts of tricks because of the steadying force of gravity.

It is probably a natural extension of using gravity to stay on the holds in ascending to using gravity to fall through space—the rate of fun is a squared function of time and the cosmological climbing constant, C cubed, which Werner keeps in a box in Camp Four.

Anyway I am getting way too technical; danglers just walk to the top, tie onto a rope and jump off. One distinct advantage of this directional shift in climbing is that it really levels the playing field—for the most part, every body has fun at the same rate—as Ed has taught us. The sport of dangling relies exclusively on the equipment, so it is closely related to aid climbing. It is a lower form, for sure. But, it also often comes after aid climbers have been drinking beer as part of their training. It can have unfortunate consequences if you land on your head before the rope stops your fall.

You also point out in your questions about partners one of the bedeviling facts of climbing. Partners are not the opposite of enemies. A partner can be a friend or an enemy. As a partner, their main task is to belay. Belay can be used in all language constructions. It even has a sense of intimate relationships with one's partner, if it comes to that. However in that sense it has sort of a Biblical tone that is a little off-putting. I digress. Sorry.

Your friend, Juan, posted a picture of a young lady properly belaying her man at JT. As can be clearly seen in the picture, it is not clear if she is a friend or foe. Juan didn’t stick around to get any pictures of any other sort of be laying that might have occurred later.

Belay comes from the Middle English word beleggen, meaning to beset or surround. Originally, belaying was a sort of entertainment in which two combatants were tied together on a rope and were made to cross rough country for the pleasure of the paying crowds—think of the gladiators and the slaves. The race usually ended on a hill or promontory with the first person to ascent being given a chance to do it again with another combatant. The loser…well the loser lost.

The rope attaching the two was to insure that the person who was fastest would not necessarily always win—the slower of the two could pull him down. Any way you can see by this simple device, it was possible to have lots of fun.

There are many aspect of modern climbing that retain the original pleasures related to beleggening, the gerund form of beleggen. This also gives rise to the uncertainty of the status of the person holding the rope. As you can imagine, if you were not sure of the status of the beleggener, you might be a little apprehensive. You might even take up free-soloing as the lesser of two evils. (Quickie quiz: what is beleggening?)

TL,C--Roger
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 11, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
Side Bar
what is a belay?



A casual belay, not great because her partner falling would pull her in the direction of the upper rope, she's not tied in to an anchor! The rope goes through a braking device which is on her waist attached to her climbing harness.



Here is a climber falling, his belayer has got his right hand back to affect the brake, the belayer is secured to two bolts drilled in the wall, and the leader (the guy in flight) will be stopped by the rope going through a piece of protection placed in the vertical crack. He's going to take a pretty good ride because the rope has slack here and there in it.



The leader was only using the natural features on the rock to climb; he was free climbing.

Here is a pretty typical look at a belayer (from the leader's point of view). These guys are climbing on El Capitan, Lurking Fear is the name of the route, and it requires aid climbing.



This is a picture of a climber negotiating an overhang using aid techniques, basically climbing on sling ladders which are attached to anchors the climber places in the rock. The more difficult climbs don't have much to put anchors into.



"Back in the day" belays looked a lot like this:



This belayer is using his body as a break, the good old hip belay. I can't quite see if he is anchored in, but he has a great "belay stance", his butt is sunk in behind the rock flake. It is probably that he is not anchored to the rock at all, The yellow sling with the carabiners attaching the rope to the anchor would take a lot of the force of the fall, pulling the belayer towards it in the event that the leader fell. If that anchor failed, then the likely outcome would be that both of the climbers would plunge off the cliff.

Thus Roger's statement that in the old days you didn't often want to fall.

Our boy John Long, who posts widely, and often here at SuperTopo basically collected and systematized the whole science/art/technology of building safe anchors and published his research in two books... though when many of us on SuperTopo learned, we learned without the benefit of the books.... but by talking to each other.

I like the old days in terms of talking to each otehr, but web forums are not a bad way of communicating... and the equipment and knowledge we have now is lightyears away from some of the stuff we used to do, and that is good.

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 11, 2005 - 10:00pm PT
'Cause that's the way they did it in the Yosemite Climber photo?

classic photo. whatever happened to diegelman?

for bonus points: who is belaying d.d. in the yosemite climber pic?
Russ Walling

Social climber
NOT FOR LOAN™ CC3
Nov 11, 2005 - 10:29pm PT
Ed says something like "do it in the style of Ron..."

Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but didn't those guys lower perlon through the crack tied to 2x4's on the top of the roof to preprotect it??? Werner, do you know??
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 12, 2005 - 05:07am PT
ok,ok, so I get a little romantic at times...
...just go fire the thing, Gripper dude, however you do it.

(Russ knows too much and is willing to reveal story behind the sends, and their photographic representations)
OffBelay

Trad climber
Albany, NY
Nov 12, 2005 - 06:28am PT
I have been lurking here for a couple of years. How cool is it to find my picture posted above by Ed Hartouni. I feel like Cameron Crowe in Almost Famous.

Here's the picture you didn't see though!

http://heenanworld.com/PhotoAlbum/Climbing/slides/SepReality1.html

Cheers,
Walt
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 12, 2005 - 06:56am PT
That's a cool picture, Walt. You are now famous, start counting.

But the real question is when are you going to take your separate reality--feet only--for a spin without the rope? If you pulled it off, the counting would go on forever. :-)

Roger
nature

climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Nov 12, 2005 - 08:04am PT
on the right is Wolfgang Gullich doing the first free solo of the route (the photo was taken by Heinz Zak). Unfortunately he died several years back. He was returning home from a radio interview in Munich when a drunk driver killed him. One of the top climbers in his day, it is more than just ironic that he should survive death defying feats only to die in such a way. Sad and RIP Wolfgang.
well put, Patrick.
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2005 - 09:47am PT
They dropped slings thru the roof on the first ascent. There wasn't any other way to do it without resorting to using pins.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 12, 2005 - 10:28am PT
Werner, how long did Ron work that the crack before he could do it? Was this all done with pre-placed slings?

What happened after the first ascent? Did Ray do it with his 'Friends,' placing them on lead?

I think that the evolution of this route is really interesting.

Roger
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Nov 12, 2005 - 11:26am PT
Roger & Ed, that was as good as it gets, informative with style and edge; somewhere Batso is jealous. I hope you have other things pending, cause otherwise that might have been it.

Highly karmic people have died producing less.

Truly inspired. All of cllimbing is right there.
Roger Breedlove

Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 12, 2005 - 11:48am PT
Thanks Jay. I hate to admit the possibility, but Lois may be a climbing forum muse. He, he, he.

Our little climbing world is really wacky, in a way that is not apparent until you try to explain it to someone. Wouldn't it be great if Warren were posting up!!!

TL,C--Roger
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 12, 2005 - 12:30pm PT
Roger,

So the belayer is the "counterweight" so to speak which would balance the falling person and keep him or her from crashing on the rock below (messy- yuck). Now, I would also gather that the belayer cannot rely on his weight alone to do the trick since the aceleration with gravity could easily pull both of them down. Accordingly, I am gathering that said belayer afixes himself to the wall in some way so as to insure that he is firmly in place should his services as a counterweight be needed. Now this makes sense regarding a comment which was shared to me regarding whether or not xyz person's belays were or were not "safe."

I am gathering then that it is up to the judgement of the person doing the belay to decide how to secure himself to fixed objects. The person being "belayed" sort of relies on that person's judgement to rig something secure. If the judgement is faulty, then the results could be disastrous. Is this correct? Do the parties discuss the manner of belaying and mutually make a decision or does said decision rest solely in the hands of the belayer. (I am a control freak - this wouldn't work well for me)

Also, when one falls for the "fun" of it, I would imagine that said fun is entirely reliant on the length of the rope being shorter than the distance between the where the person is located on the wall and the next rock ledge. If the rope in fact longer than expected, the fun could readily turn into a rather disastrous experience wherein the person gets splattered on the rock below (again - yuck!). Also, I am wondering about what happens when one falls to the furtherest extreme of the rope. Must be a rather severe jolt, I would think. I would imagine, then, one must be wearing a rather carefully placed harness. Elsewise I could see where ripping an internal organ or two (or joint articulation) could sort of put a significant damper on things. How, then, does one deal with the inertial forces from a sudden stop at the rope's end.

Please excuse all of these seamingly inane questions, but this whole thing is truly mind-boggeling to me. If I were not reading your comments first hand and seeing the photos (unbelieveable!) I would truly conclude that someone was putting me on. Your historical comments as well as your entire posting were EXTREMELY interesting

Lois
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 12, 2005 - 12:33pm PT
Offbelay,

"32 feet/second squared - it is not just a good idea - it's the law" That is too funny! Extremely clever and amusing.

With that kind of whit, you really need to lurk less and post more.

Lois
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
Lois, this all kind of circles back to the fact that passive words and pics really aren't the instructional media of choice for understanding climbing, its paraphernalia, or the idioms bandied about in these topical aeries.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
I heard a friend say Tobin Sorenson had something to do with putting up SR, any of you folks know if that was the case or where him getting on it fell in the timeline of things?
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 12, 2005 - 04:09pm PT
healyje,

Well, in fact, someone on this very forum is kindly sending me a book (en route, as we now speak) and I am most looking forward to reading it.

P.S. to that person - a public thank you in addition to the thanks I sent you via email. Also, that detailed info you sent me was fantastic, as well.

Lois
Gramicci

Social climber
Ventura
Nov 12, 2005 - 05:03pm PT
It would have been fun to have Tobin there during the attempts but I think he was down in school. This route was like a boulder problem. Short of being the first guy to do it, “having something to do with it” may be only the contribution of figuring out a move beyond the last high point. Or far point in this case.

Not to dash your friends memory of Tobin (since he was my best friend) he may be mixing this up with his Turinga wall route in Australia. It’s second pitch had a roof that dwarfed SR. Probability just as hard at “grade25” (sorry to side track this thread)

Werner, I’m trying to recollect the slings through the roof. In fact I deleted a post prior to yours to the contrary,( I needed time to ponder it). I do remember a pin or two and a point that was always left in out toward the lip. I also seem to remember Dale B. trying to lob a piece in at the very end after we figured out the turn around near the lip. It looks like your memory may be better than mine :-)

Lois – I’m so glad you have a book coming!

mg
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
Lois, that was kind of them no doubt, but any of the outings offered earlier could, in an hour, give you more real understanding than will come from that book. It's same differnce as assisting in a surgery and reading about assisting in one - incomplete at best. And hell, not many people ever get the kind of offers you've gotten from folks here.
LEB

climber
Glen Gardner
Nov 12, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
Healyje,

The folks are quite generous to make these offers, to me sure. Their efforts have not gone unnoticed by me. I have a rather arthritic left knee. *Very* painful most of the time. For now, I think I'll just read the books and live vicariously through you guys. Besides, I am happy as a clam hiking in all manner of locations and enjoying every minute of it.

While certainly not as spectacular as what you guys to, I take pride in my little achievements in this realm. This summer for example, I hiked all over Capital Reef (Utah) including the entire Sounds of Silence trail without a drop of water (never do *that* again - real stupid of me). It may not be hanging by the hands, a mile high off the end of a cliff but the trail was steep, rocky, hot and dry and I took some satisfaction in doing it. Achievement comes in many forms and what matters is that person doing it was challenged by it and met said challenge. It feels good when it is all said and done.
KarlP

Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
Nov 14, 2005 - 02:19am PT
gramicci: what's this "Turinga" wall thing you're talking about that Tobin was on in australia?

I know his name is on quite a few nice lines around the country, but I can't think of anything with a sizeable roof that he was involved in, aid or free.

Cheers,
Karl P
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 14, 2005 - 04:23am PT
mg,

I'll double check, but I believe my friend said he got it from Tobin's younger brother who he was with when he went to do SR.
Gramicci

Social climber
Ventura
Nov 14, 2005 - 07:37am PT
It is highly likely Tim could of belayed Tobin when he did it. But Ron had already put it up. Tobin would blow through on the weekends from SLO and pull off some great stuff. He did an early accent of “Tales of Power” I saw him that afternoon when he got back from it he was pretty stoked. He would have been a good candidate to link the two back then but didn’t that day.

KarlP, This is probably worth another thread but the short version is. Mount Arapiles Victoria Australia. He repeated most of there test pieces and puts up one of his own. No one there could even do the first pitch. Not that it was super difficult it was just different (for them). I remember the roof looking crazy, something that would tear shoulders right out of its sockets. Rechecking the spelling it my be “Tyringa” I have a picture but would need to scan it, unfortunately the roof is cropped in the shot but it does show it being a bit ominous.

He was well traveled.

Cheers, Mike
KarlP

Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
Nov 14, 2005 - 09:48am PT
gramicci: fair enough, I'm a northerner, so not as well versed on the araps history.

There's a bunch of interesting roofs at Araps, but I don't have an araps guidebook handy to work out what you're talking about.

Henry Barber was FFA on Kachoong, which is a fairly famous roof there, but he was a few years earlier than Tobin. (They both visited much the same places, doing fairly similar things)

Gramicci

Social climber
Ventura
Nov 14, 2005 - 11:57am PT
KarlP, I see your from Queensland, Cool..I had a lot of fun at frog buttress.

I'll email you some info so I don't sidetrack this thread.

Mike Graham
cultureshock

Sport climber
Lewisburg, PA
Nov 14, 2005 - 08:59pm PT
From the closeness im guessing its "Tjuringa" Wall which is above the watchtower faces at Mt Arapiles.

On that wall there is a climb with the same name Tjuringa which is graded 25. I havent checked that route out, but i do remember seeing a quite massive roof in that area.

More info:
http://www.chockstone.org/Arapiles/Arapiles.htm
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 16, 2007 - 11:24pm PT
idle youtubing on a Saturday night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uen5PhkQqjo

Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 16, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
A flash from the (recent) past. Thank you.

Somewhere upthread, Roger said to Lois that:
"Belay comes from the Middle English word beleggen, meaning to beset or surround. Originally, belaying was a sort of entertainment in which two combatants were tied together on a rope and were made to cross rough country for the pleasure of the paying crowds — think of the gladiators and the slaves. The race usually ended on a hill or promontory with the first person to ascent being given a chance to do it again with another combatant. The loser…well the loser lost."

Climbers borrowed the word belay from mariners. A sailor "belays" a rope when he/she anchors or secures it. Mariners had a well-developed vocabulary of specialized words to do with ropes, security and technique, which climbers borrowed freely from. (Did you know that "grommet" originally meant a cabin boy?)

Roger should be given considerable credit for his imaginative game, which might otherwise be called a red hairing.

There is a Norwegian verb, aa belegge. One of its meanings is to place under arrest. As old English and old Norse were close Germanic cousins, no surprise both successor languages still have much the same word, even if they use it differently.
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Jun 17, 2007 - 09:15am PT
He was returning home from a radio interview in Munich when a drunk driver killed him.

Not to pick nits but it was actually a solo car accident early in the AM according to Wolfgang's biography...
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Jun 17, 2007 - 11:43am PT
that's what I heard too, ala the band associated with Hot rod lincoln (not Commander Cody)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 19, 2007 - 08:07am PT
bump for those who are just newly aware of the LEB thread drift phenomena...
...a sort of Emily Lattela free association riff on the thread topic...

enjoy
Caveman

climber
Cumberland Plateau
Jul 19, 2007 - 08:52am PT
Don't kid yourselves.....those pics of SR are upside down!! Little bit of photoshop and voila! Caveman (as we say in caving...come south where the big ones are!)
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jul 19, 2007 - 08:59am PT
that's what I heard too, ala the band associated with Hot rod lincoln (not Commander Cody)

have you heard the story bout the hot rod race
'tween the ford and the lincoln that was settin' the pace?
well that story's true, i'm here to say
'cause i was driving that model a...
Sketch

Trad climber
Langley, VA
Jul 19, 2007 - 09:37am PT
bump for those who are just newly aware of the LEB thread drift phenomena...
...a sort of Emily Lattela free association riff on the thread topic...


Did they make Alternate Reality into a movie? Or was that Altered States?

I sure could go for a brontasaurus burger about now.
duncan

Trad climber
London, UK
Jul 19, 2007 - 09:59am PT
From Alpinist 17:

"In 1979 two other famous foreigners, SoCal Stonemaster Tobin Sorenson and UK gritstone climber John Allen, arrived. Like Barber before them, they opened a visionary route many local climbers had considered unattainable: the smooth Tjuringa Wall (25). A Tjuringa is a sacred Aboriginal stone, and the roof on the second pitch might indeed seem to require some form of supernatural power. Child recalls that the born-again Sorenson told Aussie climbers that God would protect him if he fell. A year later Sorenson died in the Canadian Rockies, soloing the North Face of Mt. Alberta. He left behind a legacy of intense boldness and vitality; partner John Long described him, in Tales from the Steep, as "alive in a way the rest of us were not." It's easy to imagine Sorenson still a part of the vivid Arapiles landscape."

I knew John a little around that time and I got the impression that, of all that he had climbed with, Tobin was the climber and person he had most respect for. The first pitch of Tjuringa is a beautiful wall, the top pitch is the roof. I only have pictures of the wall because we never got as far as the roof. Probably a good thing too as with 1984 gear it only had one poor peg in about 20' of horizontal.


The roof, 2007 style: redpoint on pre-placed gear. Photo from http://www.flickr.com/photos/redanon/



First pitch, 1984 attempt, my pal Jeff climbing



Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Jul 19, 2007 - 10:39am PT
Haha, Ed, thanks for reviving this thread. Duncan, awesome pics and story.

As a relative noob here at ST it's interesting to see the LEB thread drift phenomena is very old. Like, so old that I can't believe LEB hasn't been run off or banned. And I'm still not convinced that LEB is not actually some other poster's sock puppet. I know Locker says he spoke with her at length, but we know Locker's brain is addled (as he readily admits - hippie lettuce, glue, etc). Anyone else ever actually see or speak with LEB?
duncan

Trad climber
London, UK
Jul 19, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
Thank you Bill. I've edited my post to make it clear that the 2007 photo is not mine (nor me climbing, alas). I thought it was a fine shot and it gave a good idea of what Tobin was capable of back in '79, and without all those pre-placed micro-cams and wires!
Jaybro

Social climber
wuz real!
Oct 3, 2008 - 11:46pm PT
"When I look at someone,
I see a luminous being,
with radiating tendrils"
-Don Juan, something, something, Matous
Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Oct 4, 2008 - 02:39pm PT
I've wandered around a few times at the end of the tunnel, looking for any sort of faint climbers' trail, and never found one. (Probably just as well.)

Perhaps the trail gets so little traffic that unles you have been there before, it is not visible?

Brutus

PS -- "Doors of Perception" is a "5.8" route on North Palisade. Quotes because the second ascent said the rating is unbelievably sandbagged.

Speaking of separate realities and doors of perception, Nurse Ratchet just sent the window-side OW at PG SF today (I've only been halfway up so far). Said she could reach clear through and toe hook the other side for a no-hands rest whenever she wanted. I told her she gets to lead all the hard pitches next time we're on SS. (As I recall, there's only 17 hard pitches on that route)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 4, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
that'll learn her...
jstan

climber
Oct 4, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
The only thing I see near the long tunnel is toilet paper. Have never seen a better location for that.
Brunosafari

Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
Oct 4, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
healyje, Mike, Werner, et all:
I haven't seen this thread before today, but I can add a little to the history.

I believe Tobin had just returned from his spectacular season in the Alps. He had climbed the Eiger Direct, The Dru C.Direct, The Desmaison on the Walker and the N. Face Matterhorn solo in the winter, among others, such as the famous Scottish ice gullies and Grecian sea cliffs. In the Spring he returned to San Luis Obispo and began bouldering and rockclimbing locally with us, his SLOtown roomates and buds. He was in the most splendid condition imaginable, highly confident and motivated. Seems to me he climbed "more monk den funk" at Josh around this time, and that would have bearing in relation to Separate Reality.

In late May, I think, he set about some business in Yosemite. After a warm up at the Cookie Cliff, he and I climbed The Crucifix. I believe the following weekend, he climbed Astroman, leading every pitch on sight with no falls in about five or six hours, I think. It seems to me, the following weekend he attempted to climb Tales of Power and Separate Reality together, though he had not laid eyes on them. There was another testpiece he attempted during this period, but I'm not positive of its identity. I only recall his seasoned belayer telling me he had taken three huge, terrifying, headfirst falls. (edit : maybe it was Crimson Cringe) Tobin just told me he failed because it was too hot and said little if anything at all about the falls. He knew I would not have approved.

By this time his E.B.s were thrashed. Amazingly, Tobin and I had the exact height, weight and shoe size. So of course I was honored to sponsor his attempt by providing the "all-the-credit-is-due-to," all important, footwear. That is, an identical pair of the blue magic slippers, only slightly less thrashed. I wished him the best, but was unable to join the spectacle of Tales and Separate together. This was during my finals in my fourth year and I was working. How very much now I wish I had attended anyways.

A couple of days later in the late evening, he stumbled into the house, but was in good spirits. I asked him how it went and he told me the story with full animation, showing the endless hand jams and how he had climbed all the way out to the very lip, had made the first toe hook...but on the next heel hook the rubber on the heel of my E.B.s had torn off suddenly and it had made him fall!

I can still see the gleaming fire in his eyes!

By this time my paternal instincts had often become exaggerated in respect to Tobin. You would have to know how raw his emotions were and how idealistic he was, how penniless we all were, especially him. Each of his victories had strangely become my very own; and now this failure too. We looked stupidly into each other's faces like a literal gold medal had just slipped through our fingers!


-Bruce Adams



Brutus of Wyde

climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
Oct 4, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
"When I look at someone,
I see a luminous being,
with radiating tendrils"
-Don Juan, something, something, Matous


"When I use a word,
it means just what
I choose it to mean
– neither more nor less."

--Humpty Dumpty,
aka GW Bush, speaking abour Newcular Arms
something else, and someone else entirely,
Loose Carol
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
Mono County
Oct 5, 2008 - 12:35am PT
LEB vs. Ed Hartouni (debate?) I think we know who kicked who to the mother-lovin' curb . End of thread .
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 5, 2008 - 04:50am PT
I have come to this thread very late, but I agree with Ed, Lois hijacked the thread and knew that she was doing so, despite her pleas otherwise.

Typical LEB.


I have come to the conclusion that Lois is a piss taker
Chief

climber
Mar 24, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
I just watched this for the first time yesterday and was completely blown away. Then I watched it a few more times.

Yup, that's a Separate Reality Heinz!

I looked around for a thread that might have already covered this and found Gripper's post. Hope I'm not out of line commenting here.

I had the privilege of knowing and working with Wolfgang and he was a champion and a decent man. I can see how Wolfgang would have inspired Hanz to do such a radical thing. Amazing!

With great respect and complete horror at the mere thought,

PB


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKY9VWTtA98
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 8, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
random bump 'cuz I'm feeling a little separate and for nostalgia's sake.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2012 - 06:02am PT
So it was Ron Kauk who named all those routes after Carlos Castaneda books. Another mystery solved. Glad he didn't drink the kool aid with the others when the guru finally died of cirhossis of the liver.
hoipolloi

climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
Jul 9, 2012 - 07:29am PT
Saw its 5th free solo two weeks ago.


(not me)
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Jul 9, 2012 - 08:23am PT
Actually, if history is important here, Barry Bates and I both knew about the lines that would become Separate Reality and Tales of Power back in 1971. When we had done FA of The Application down at Arch Rock we began pointing out stuff left to do and we both revealed to each other their existence--- it was kind of a funny moment, showing each other the same secrets. At the time the two routes just looked too modern, too hard and we were both starting just a little bit to wind down. History rolled on though and the next dudes were rolling on them within a few years.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 9, 2012 - 09:00am PT
died of cirhossis of the liver.

If Mr. Castaneda did drink too much alchohol, he certainly wasn't the first anthropoligist who did (it is/was one of the main ways of integrating into other cultures), but he apparently died from cancer, not cirhossis.

Castaneda died on 27 April 1998 in Los Angeles due to complications from hepatocellular cancer.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2012 - 09:57am PT
Liver cancer but as I recall he was a heavy drinker and a womanizer. His 16 year old adopted daughter/wife committed suicide 2 weeks after the guru died, and his other b/witches all disappeared, thought to have all committed suicide together in a pact. His work as an anthropologist is widely regarded as fake. It's a long story, but those routes are named after a really weird magic cult. Odd that Ron Kauk looks so much like Tom Cruise, the Scientology Man. Well religion is a subject that gets people riled up so I better stop there.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 9, 2012 - 10:14am PT
Mr. Castaneda taught a graduate course at UC Irvine. Basically he told stories and answered question and gave us the draft of A Separate Reality to read. He had a great sense of humor and didn't appear to drink in those days. I was surprised when they granted him his Ph.D. I'll have to follow up on his later life.

I wonder how much L. Ron Hubbard drank. It's said that he chain-smoked cigarettes.

I wonder how nicotine registers on the e-meter, though, clearly cigs aren't good for ya.

Credit: zBrown
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 2, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Just another send.



KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Feb 2, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
Separate Reality as a sport route.....

Hiked it though. Great footage.
scaredycat

Trad climber
Berkeley,CA
Feb 2, 2013 - 04:49pm PT

Cool: hiked is right. Who is that?


She'll lose her belay card for the gym though, 'cause she skipped a clip. I didn't know about the wide part (liebacked) before the roof. Hey, I sew up 5.6 that much when I can.
Matt's

climber
Feb 2, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
she's dead, fyi
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 2, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloé_Graftiaux
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Feb 2, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Feb 2, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
i belayed the coach (jason lakey) on separate reality this past november. it was exactly a year and a day after his fall on leaning tower where he shattered his knee. i thought it was a pretty proud send after a year of several surgeries and barely being able to walk for a good part of the year. that guy has some determination.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Feb 3, 2013 - 01:39am PT
Wow. What a line. They don't get much better. I guess people PP the G cuz it sux to clean if ur working it? Or is the gear hard to place? Looks pretty straightforward but I know nothing. Awesome thread too, a lot of really cool history & posts, this is the stuff.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Feb 3, 2013 - 03:15am PT
hey there say, thanks for the bump...

enjoyed the climbing pics here, and answers to situation-stuff
by ed, roger and so many others...

did not see all of it... but most of it...
thanks for the bump, once again...
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 3, 2013 - 05:59am PT
I do not mean to be off topic or hijack the thread, but zBrown, in the US, one of the primary causes of hepatocellular carcinoma - which is what Castaneda is said to have died from - is alcoholism and cirrohsis of the liver.

My brother Mac, who gave up drinking after cirrohsis of the liver, though he still was one of the best winemakers in the US if not abroad (by peer recognition and god himself, Robert Parker), he developed hepatocellular cancer that took him in less than a week (diagnosed on Tuesday passed away on Friday, May 18). Alcoholism is an industrial hazard in the wine industry.

He still could make great wine, you don't need to swallow, just spit out. Afterwards, my oldest brother Casey (chairman of the Northern California Teamsters Substance Abuse Committee) told me that people who have had cirrohsis of the liver have a 34 times greater chance of developing liver cancer.


Back to Separate Reality, I couldn't even follow that thing, more less lead.
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
Feb 3, 2013 - 07:32am PT
I hadn't seen that solo vid of Zak before. Nice! Very smooth and controlled.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Jun 1, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Tried reading this whole thread but it goes pretty OT.

Questions:
I see pre placed gear on most videos/pics. Any beta on placing the gear? It's not obvious to me.
Do we need to bring a separate rap line to jug out incase we don't send?

Thanks for the beta if your willing to share.
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Jun 1, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
You can gear it from solid hand jams with the exception of your last piece, then place the final cam from a tight hand jam and go.

Yes, leave a line to get out. It might make your life easier.
GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
Jun 1, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
KP
Thank you for the info.
Have a nice evening.

Jay
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