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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...Well then what's the story with liability? Anyone here an attorney? If you buy out CCH for $1, then discover tomorrow that a cam failed and you have a $10M lawsuit against CCH, what happens?
Then the corporation has to defend against that lawsuit--or risk having a judgement entered against it. This particular problem can be avoided simply by buying the assets of the company instead of the actual shares of the corporation. In situations like CCH, a buyer would almost certainly want to pursue an asset purchase. The only downside is to the seller, who is then taxed on the sale proceeds as regular income--instead of the more favorable capital gains rates.
Disclaimer--I'm not an attorney, but my wife is.
Curt
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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The issue of what is called in legal jargon "successor liability" is at least somewhat more complex than Curt states above. A purchase of the assets (rather than the business itself) will not *necessarily* absolve the purchaser of all liabilities, in all jurisdictions.
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Gene
Social climber
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None of you valuation pundits know what is for sale until you have done your due diligence. I suspect none of you has done that. My best wishes to Nadia in selling whatever it is she is trying to sell. How is ownership of CCH held? What about that $50,000,000 prepaid liability policy? What about those wonderful gizmos Dave had on the drawing board when he passed? Have you considered all the non-recourse loans involved in the business? Yeah, Im making this up, but until you understand all aspects of what Nadia is trying to sell, why dont you shut your pie holes? Your uninformed speculations and opinions based on unsupported assumptions adds nothing to the discussion.
If you are interested, find out what you need to know. If you're not interested, don't fart in the punch bowl.
Or Ready, Fire, Aim.
g
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...The issue of what is called in legal jargon "successor liability" is at least somewhat more complex than Curt states above. A purchase of the assets (rather than the business itself) will not *necessarily* absolve the purchaser of all liabilities, in all jurisdictions...
The exceptions you allude to are extremely limited in nature. Naturally, you would want to have an attorney competent in this area of law draft any asset purchase agreement.
http://www.kamletlaw.com/NewsPage.aspx?id=Publications&article=122721874749265
Curt
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Gene, I'm sure you are sympathetic to CCH and all, but there are only so many ways to value a company. Yes, rigorous diligence is required before committing to a specific number, but it's not very likely that CCH is worth very much--sorry.
I am clearly speculating here--but the assumptions I'm making are pretty darn reasonable.
Curt
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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I'm confused why discussing the value of something listed as "for Sale" (see title) is so off-limits. Especially when the posting was solicited by the owner. This discussion is nothing against the owner - they made great cams - they just don't have a business that sells easily. The title of the tread is "for Sale" after all. It's not a job posting for a manager, it's "for Sale". It's not manage my company with me, it's buy my company.
And seriously, this is CCH, not someone's old port-a-ledge. Kind of like the Mig-19 that was up for sale on Ebay. We're gonna poke at it a bit.
And to answer:
Company is for sale - who care's how it's held (likely one person, Nadia). The whole thing is for sale. You really want a minority shareholder around?
Prepaid insurance? I don't think that's how most insurance co's roll.
Paying for un-released R&D - I've got a bridge to sell you.
Debt - only destroys remaining value.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have an F-16 to bid on...
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Gene
Social climber
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Curt,
No bias or interest in CCH. My point is that unless one truly knows what is being offered, speculation is just noise. You're probably correct that CCH ain't worth much. As an example of my point, look at the classic real estate situation. Two identical buildings in equally desirable locations are for sale. One has a 30 year lease to a creditworthy tenant. The other is leased for six months as head shop by the daughter of the RE owner. They are essentially the same except for the leases. Which is more marketable and worth more?
The devil is in the details of which we know knott. That's all.
g
EDIT: A client had a business worth about $2.1 million until it was discovered that it had about $850K in retained earnings that the IRS signed off on. Kinda changed the value.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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First off I want to say thank you to anyone who takes on the New Alien cam project. Cheers!
As the person who probably spends the most time thinking, staring at, and climbing USA's bigwalls I'll fill in some details for more recent comers:
Ten years ago everyone wanted to buy CCH, or get a lease on the patent for the internal spring design. I worked at the Mt. Shop in '02 and '03 and Ted told me that every Trade show a different vendor pulled him aside and opened his/her trenchcoat to reveal an Alien knockoff. 'As soon as we close the deal with Dave, or the patent is up' seemed to be the mindset. But Dave wouldn't budge on leasing the patent, allow other's to contract making cams for him(reportedly one distributorship offered to buy CGI machines and make the cams if they could have them to sell, such was the market share in the early 2000s), or sell the company. I remember Michael Haag, one of the Splitter cam inventors, telling me that their cams ultimately failed to take off because they needed the internal spring design.
So it seemed like Dave would ride out his last decades with a fat REI contract that kept his shop humming and left every other store in the world desperate to get his goods.
Then the cams started breaking. Distributors stopped carrying Aliens faster than Hans and Yuji climbed the Nose. But those of us that climb in Yosemite all the time(and a few other places like Colorado and the Gunks, no?) were so hooked we didn't care. Bounce test all your cams and you know they're good.
The cam breaking scandal created the real momentum for all the big companies to abandon dreams of an exact Alien knockoff and come out with something "better". Too bad those companies never came here to Yosemite and actually had people use they're cams a ton before releasing them, so they would know that they could compete with a product so uniquely bitchin that people would pay full price even knowing that some units had failed.
So now the folks at Trango, Bd, Metolius and so on have too much time and money invested in their supposedly superior small cams to entertain buying a company that makes a product that directly competes with one they already own/produce.
I write all this that hopefully someone who is new to the industry might recognize a unique opportunity in CCH, one that is perhaps not as invaluable as this current discussion would lead you to believe. Rest assured that even today, when the Mt. Shop gets a shipment of Aliens in they still sell out within a week. Every time. People still email me or ask me in person every week where they can buy Aliens, or tell me how they could not imagine having climbed they're last big wall route as clean without hybrid Aliens.
True, there seem to have been some parts of the CCH operation that undermined the company's reputation. But the massive interest in these products, despite these problems, should underscore how valuable they are to the climbing community.
Keep the Alien Love alive!
many cheers
e
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Erik Sloan
climber
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One of the most easily recognizable impacts Aliens have had on our current cams is the proliferation of the color-coded reinforced thumb loop, something that BD reps used to say their company would never make on a cam. Every year that Aliens were at the top it seemed another company switched over to nice, color-coded loops. Thanks Dave!
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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I hope Moses buys em!
Thor
Nohtin scarier, than an Alien with a Tomahawk!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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Anything ever happen with this?
Seems like they would at least sell the patent
Peace
Karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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patents are expired?
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ccendre
Mountain climber
vancouver, bc, canada
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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excuse me, but there is still some Alien can available around the word. I would like to buy this awesome cam. I try to contact the compagny (Colorado Custom Hardware Inc.) by email but she told me (please contact us in couple weeks. CCH is for sale now), and now it's been 1 month, so if someone can answer me to say yes or no or wait that would be nice. Thanks everyone
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Dalyte
Trad climber
Nevada
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Oct 25, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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eBay would be the only better place to find it. Mark Miller sold couple sets last week after posted on taco in less than an hour. On eBay you might find some new but prepare to pay big $$$, used one goes for about $60 and up. Nobody makes CCH anymore and question if they will in a future. The closest cams to Aliens are Metolius Mastercams. Check Chris gear reviews.
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JP.Franklin
Trad climber
Santiago-CHILE
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Sadly I have parts and pieces for over 150 aliens. We were contracted for assembling some time before Mr. Waggoner passed away.
Donīt know what to do with this stuff....
Frank.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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JP easy answer
MAKE THEM!
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Fishy
climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Concerning spare parts - I have a red alien that is missing the screw at one end of the axel (the cams can now fall off). Any chance I could buy a few parts JP?
Pete.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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JP:
I have a half dozen aliens with broken springs, bent axels, completely worn lobes, and I'm not the only one. You could probably set up a nice little repair business for a while, I know I would pay nicely to have these things working again.
Additionally, there are folks like Ryan at Nomad Ventures in Joshua Tree and Bernie (Dr. Cam) who runs some repairs through the Mountain Shop who might be happy to place a parts order with you, as it would give them a nice, unique service to offer.
-Kate.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Sadly I have parts and pieces for over 150 aliens. We were contracted for assembling some time before Mr. Waggoner passed away.
Donīt know what to do with this stuff....
Frank.
Well, if you were subcontracted to do the assembly then those materials still belong to CCH and should be returned to them. If they don't want them I suppose you're free to do with them as you please, but in theory they'd still be in CCH's financials as either WIP (work in progress) or inventory.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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That's 15k on ebay for mint units. I'd build them up and sell them. Screw repairs. They're disposable. What financials - is CCH even a company anymore?
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