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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Christians have been responsible for more misery in the World in the last 2000 years than any other belief system.
Uh,
Marxist atheists out did 2000 years worth in spades in just the last century.
Not even a close comparison.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:11pm PT
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That is pretty weak grounds for an assumption of someone's faith simply based on an inscription of a date. But I think that Jefferson probably had a great respect and understanding of Jesus Christ and his moral teachings. But that alone hardly makes someone a christian.
gunsmoke, I do not think we are a christian nation. We are a divided nation and always have been. There have been few changes. What "overwhelming evidence" is there, please list it.
If the U.S. was founded on christian values then why is god not referenced a single time in the constitution?Not once! you're telling me that a bunch of christians got together to create a new country and simply left god out of its founding document by accident?
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Religious people who are used to believe not question are much easier to fool.. I mean govern. May not be a bad thing after all
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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gunsmoke, I do not think we are a christian nation. We are a divided nation and always have been. There have been few changes. What "overwhelming evidence" is there, please list it.
Hmm, I don't seem to remember using the quoted phrase "overwhelming evidence" which you attribute to me. I think I said, "The evidence in favor of "yes" is much stronger for the second of the two questions."
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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you're right. I misread you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Mar 13, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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donini, give me a break. Read Matthew 5,6 and 7. This is what jesus wanted his followers (who should also be christians) to aspire to.... in how we live out our lives. If these words of jesus were followed....if only to the best ability of a person, Christianity would not have been as you say......causing misery for the past 2000 years. lynnie
So was it ? Real christianity or just a label.
Edit: Read "Crazy Love" by Francis Chan....that will give yo a buzz. I have an extra copy if you want it.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 13, 2010 - 12:13am PT
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So we have agreement?
Some group of people has been causing misery for 2000 years.
Now that we have that straight we can talk price.
Lynne:
They all said they were christian. And they all quoted from that same book.
Same melliflous sounds. Very resonant and reassuring.
Same passages we get here on ST.
Don't know that back then they had Gobee's great lyrics tho.
Progress I guess.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Mar 13, 2010 - 12:16am PT
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jstan, a group of people called humanity. It's comprised of many subgroups of which quite a few have caused much misery. But there we go with the labels again.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Mar 13, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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ya know, it'd be funny if it was a tv show...
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Let this be a lesson to what poor losers the Liberals are.
"Do not mess with the forces of Nature, for thou art small and biodegradable!"
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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jstan, "they all Said they were christian"....? and the boys in my high school Said they didn't cut down the victory tree. What a human says versus what they actually do or not do.......gotta watch the outcome. :D
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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The christian bible is so full of terrible things done by god and for god that I wonder how christians can stomach it and preach it... mostly they just don't mention the ugly stuff and just pluck a few good things and browbeat the rest of the world with them. Almost half of the 10 commandments that, BTW the christians say are the foundation of our law, have nothing to do with our laws and would be declared unconstitutional if somehow enacted. No wonder the constitution is a god free, (christian or otherwise), document. Whatever part of the founders were christians they knew well enough to leave religion out of the governments grubby hands. They well knew about the tyrany of the majority.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 13, 2010 - 01:41am PT
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Fear fear fear...
so much fear.
you would think the ice caps were melting, or the government was manufacturing a war for oil or something.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 13, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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I am perplexed by this insistance upon the religion of the founders.
Part of their brilliance was the establishment of a country that did not require a person to be like them, whatever they were.
The enforced uniformity was what they were attempting to escape!
Now there are those who want to establish the requirement of uniformity.
What could be more treasonous, subversive, and anti-American than that?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 13, 2010 - 06:53am PT
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Supertopians, there is nothing you can say to get Chaz's goat... any of them, he just won't give them up.
Wow Gunsmoke, I didn't know that Woodrow Wilson was a Founding Father. Boy, he must have had a long life and waited a hell of a long time to be elected to the White House. Just because a 20th century president says we are a Christian nation, and we are to believe it, like many Americans do, then we are in trouble. At least we no longer have a president like Dubya who talks with GOD. Shades of the Ayatollah.
Its our divergence from theology which has made us such a great country.
Port, I agree with you on that one. Look at the countries that are run by "theologians" (so to speak). Usually women have no rights, minorities are oppressed and there is no real freedom. In GOD we trust.
Let this be a lesson to what poor losers the Liberals are.
Corniss, liberals, poor losers? Hey dirty tricks seem to be a flavor in any politics, but I think the conservatives and Repugs are the dirtiest, especially when they lose. And boy, do they complain when they lose.
I'll send you some coffee so you can wake up and smell it.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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texas is crazy and full of crazy right wing losers...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:17am PT
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Texas seems to be the one state immune to the Obama Recession.
Maybe the rest of the Country should be more like Texas.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:33am PT
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Wow Gunsmoke, I didn't know that Woodrow Wilson was a Founding Father.
Patrick, my point was more to show that the notion that the country was a Christian nation is a viewpoint held by many of education and respect. Wilson, for instance, was President of Princeton University before becoming President of the United States. The number of quotes about God among the founding fathers is almost endless for those who wish to search them out. What I haven't seen is a quote from a founding father that the country was NOT a Christian nation. I think that's a view that didn't really surface until the last few decades. (Note, Separation of Church and State does not equal Not Christian.) The phrase "one nation under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1950's, I believe. I don't intend to use Supertopo to engage in a war of selected quotes, but it's not for the inability to do so.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 13, 2010 - 10:58am PT
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Fair play Gunsmoke, but weren't you slightly concerned when Dubya claimed he TALKED with GOD and GOD ANSWERED back?
Sort of like some Middle East 'leaders' who claim "divine providence", in this case, meaning they are carrying out God's commands. Didn't Dubya allude to something like this? That he was carrying out God's word?
And pleeeaase Bushbots on the Taco Stand, don't try saying that Bush meant it in a figurative way and not literally, that he just meant prayer. Correct me if I am wrong, and I am sure you will, but as I saw it, he implied that he actually TALKED with God. Scary for the leader of a (supposedly) secular nation to be saying stuff like that.
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Mar 13, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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@Port, I agree what you're saying (since my area of study is the history of Christianity). But I think saying that the Founding Fathers were *not* Christian is just as inaccurate as saying they *were* Christian in the context of modern evangelical Christianity.
The problem is with trying to reduce things like this to the most simple explanation when what textbooks really should say is something like, "The Founding Fathers of the United States of America were Christians, in that they participated in their Christian communities of the time. However, the Christian beliefs they held might look very odd to a modern-day Christian. They believed.... blah blah blah, etc."
Edit: Also, you're right about the morality thing, especially in terms of Jefferson. For the deists, morality was one of the most important, if not the most important, part of religion.
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