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Tobia
Social climber
GA
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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In the state of Georgia, or my school district (3500 + students), teachers volunteer to be on a committee and select the textbooks for their particular discipline, such as science. Major publishers present their books and services. The teachers vote and decide; usually a couple of teachers from each grade level. I have never considered whether some publishers are disallowed from presenting their books; although that might be a possibility.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
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It seems to me that the "we were never a Christian nation" folks are handpicking their quotes, especially in the case of George Washington. How about this handpicked quote from President Woodrow Wilson, 1911 (quoted from America's God and Country, page 697), "America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the [Bible]." I think the disagreements about whether or not the nation was, at its inception, a Christian nation, derives largely from not having agreed upon criteria for making the judgment.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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gunsmoke,
My point in posting those quotes is only to point out that this country was NOT founded by Christians. However, Christianity has, not doubt, had an influence on our society and this influence should be noted in history texts. The truth, as I see it, is that these issues have always been contentious. This debate is nothing new, its been around for a very long time. And finally, to rewrite history and portray our founders as Christians is factually incorrect. I believe that we should educated our children about the debate, not portray our founders as this unified group with common values, because lets face it, they were not really all that unified.
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Portray they as they were then: theologically as deists, but most who never broke away from their own Christian communities.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Like it or not, the people who founded this country were Christians.
Doesn't mean you or I have to be, but they were.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Ok Chaz, what makes someone a christian then? because when one rewrites the bible taking out all of jesus' miracle's and leaving only his moral teachings, a 'christian' would probably call that blasphemy. A desecration of the bible. But this is what Thomas Jefferson did!!!! and how do you reconcile all the anti-christian/anti church quotes?
Lissie is on the money, they were deists. NOT christians.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 12, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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The other problem with the fundamentalist characterization is that, having described the Founders as Christians, they will characterize them as having the very same beliefs that the fundamentalists now do, which could not be further from the truth.
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drsmonkey
Trad climber
A hole
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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Funny how a Texan's mind works...
This great nation was founded upon Christianity, therefore we must teach christianity in order to keep this nation great. (e.g. What was good 200+ years ago is good now, don't you dare let anything change.)
Also, isn't it interesting that bible and the constitution are generally the favorite texts of unedumacated wackos? You get to pick and choose the bits you like, interpret them however you want, then ignore the rest.
e.g. Same Tex hollerin' about not seeing "nuthin bout no seperation of state and religion" probably can see how the 2nd amendment gives him the "right to own any dang gun I want, and let's see them feds try and take 'em away."
...And vice versa for some of us here.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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I have often wondered.
Move all the citizens of Israel to Texas.
Make it a separate nation.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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Not really, thankfully people can always change that. When it does change just remember what you said.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Like it or not, the people who founded this country were Christians.
Many of the so-called "Founding Fathers" were practicing Christians, though very few professed religious beliefs that would satisfy 21st century fundamentalists.
But many of the highest profile figures-- notably Jefferson-- were Deists.
Deists weren't Christians. Deists did not believe in the divinity of Christ nor did they believe in Christ as a supernatural figure nor did they believe in an active God who worked in the daily lives of humans in any way. When Franklin or a Jefferson wrote, "God," it did not refer to any deity recognizable to most 21st century Americans who self-identify as Christians.
Hence the decision in Texas to remove references to Jefferson from the textbook.
There were many, many Americans who more nearly resembled 21st century fundamentalists and some evangelicals, but they were precisely the sort of folks that a Jefferson-- or even a Washington --hoped to keep out of the political process.
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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@Port, you have to still keep in mind that they never actually broke away from their Christian communities so even though their theology was suspect, they were still Christians in that sense.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Mar 12, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Lissie, I see what you're saying but I'm not sure if the christian label is appropriate. Is a christian of today the same as a christian of 1787? I acknowledge that many held a belief in the christian conceptualization of god. And for many, that is enough to call them christian.
I guess what really bothers me is that the christian right is making the argument that what makes this country great is its reliance on christian values when in fact the exact opposite is true! Its our divergence from theology which has made us such a great country.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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If this were a Christian Nation, Only One kind Of Christainity would be approved, and that is: Government Sanctioned Christianity Dr. F, I think you're getting to heart of the question. We have to have a definition of a "Christian nation" before we can answer the question "are we a Christian nation?". By your definition, I concur (and surely all must agree) that we are not and never were a "Christian nation".
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 12, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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Port, and Klk,
If Jefferson wasn't a Christian, how come he routinely signed his corrispondence "In the Year Of Our Lord Jesus Christ, 17xx" ?
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 12, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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I guess what really bothers me is that the christian right is making the argument that what makes this country great is its reliance on christian values
Port, are you inferring that the country wasn't founded on Christian values? It is interesting that a great number, I suspect the majority, of the non-Christian founding fathers (e.g., Jefferson) still felt that a society should be built on a set of moral values and that the Bible was the best and preferred set of such values. We actually have two questions which shouldn't be conflated. 1) Are/were we a Christian nation; 2) Were we founded on Christian values. The evidence in favor of "yes" is much stronger for the second of the two questions.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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Muslims are the current whipping boy, but Christians have been responsible for more misery in the World in the last 2000 years than any other belief system.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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Muslims are the current whipping boy, but Christians have added more misery to the World in the last 2000 years than any other belief system.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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Texas rules!
AUSTIN, Texas -- After three days of turbulent meetings,
the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum
that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks.
Among other things, the curriculum will stress the superiority of American
capitalism, question the Founding Fathers' commitment to a purely secular
government and present Republican political philosophies in a more positive
light.
(because they couldn't find any Liberal ones that made any sense)
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 12, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
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Look at all you complainers who always complain about religious/religion threads and you're posting in them.
This proves you're all closet religious nuts too.
You're all goin to hell.
Nope, you're already in hell ........
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