Using the rope for anchor.....another anchor thread

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Tomcat

Trad climber

Chatham N.H.

Mar 11, 2010 - 08:47am PT

Dunno about majick Nick,but we just clip the anchor pieces with draws.I put myself into the top biners,she the lower,by passing the cloves beneath,I take myself out of the tops,and awf I goes....

dktem

Trad climber

Temecula

Mar 11, 2010 - 10:13am PT

he type of belay device you employ.If you don't know what I mean,find out.

I'm curious about this.

The gear reviews here on ST don't suggest that there are any devices that would fail to catch a serious fall.

Is there some characteristic of belay devices that is not being adequately covered in the analysis?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:34am PT

Tom, when Isa does this she is usualy clove hitched into a bunch of gear, I get up there, take one look at the next pitch, pull a total chicken move and try to talk her into takeing the lead and she gets pissed because its going to be such a PINTA to switch the belay arround and restack the ropes..

When I know that I will be doing all the leading I have a super slick set up with a pre tied 4ft nylon runner that I use to make the transition super smooth.

Tomcat

Trad climber

Chatham N.H.

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:43am PT

LOL Nick !! I generally just use two cloves,if it's three or four pieces,I connect them individually with slings and biners.If sketch,sliding X.

I hope you are booting the Cannon thread Nick!

dktem. Tube type belay devices require what I'll call bend around on the brake side to work.Imagine your right hand is brake side,your portly mate whips above you with nothing in and passes you to the right,you are jerked around and now facing downhill,and your bend back is gone.

scuffy b

climber

Where only the cracks are dry

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:45am PT

dktem:
belay devices.
"being able to catch a serious fall" has some range to it.
A hard fall onto an ATC on a 9.5mm rope is going to be a caught a lot
more softly than one onto a GriGri.
Some rope will move through the ATC. The fall will be caught. The loads
will be different.

Gilwad

climber

Frozen In Somewhere

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT

http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/02/simple-tricks-for-speed-on-multi-pitch.html

This is getting to be pretty standard on ice, all rope for rigging the anchor, fast switch. On rock, if you're using a vertical crack, it's even simpler as you can put as many biners through each anchor point as you like to switch leaders or whatever. It's a little more complicated for a horizontal rock anchor, but same basic idea with a sling thrown into the mix to make things a bit more easy for belaying the second. There is no one system that always works, you gotta be inventive and actually understand what might happen.

I rarely belay the second with anything but an autoblock of one kind or another directly off the belay. It's funny how long that has taken to catch on in the US, it's been standard in most of western Europe for a long time.

I'd trust Jim E.'s data. He's a climber, is thinking about this stuff all the time and testing it. There have been some other tests that don't agree with Jim's data, but they had flaws too. Look at it all, try to understand the limitations, be very sure at least one and hopefully two or three pieces are "Jesus" bomber (Jesus as a metaphor only, there are some obvious issues with putting your faith solely in Jesus while climbing).

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:56am PT

From the Sticht to the ATC Guide and in between.
All of the "tube" devices have a basic principle: When loaded, the tube is pulled against the biner by the bight of the rope leading to the belay hand. This puts high friction on the rope. As scuffy says, the rope may pay a short distance through the device until caught, but this significantly reduces the impact energy (peak force) on the anchors or belayer.
A locking device like a GriGri doesn't reduce the impact energy as much.
The stretch in the rope is the main energy absorber unless the climber is close to the belay device. Hence fall factor.

Of course if the belay hand is not pulling the rope into a bight around the tube there's much less friction between the rope and tube. So the direction of forces may be more critical with a tube than a GriGri type.

As others have said. No rules, just think about all the major factors. While its raining in the dark after a dozen pitches.

Tomcat

Trad climber

Chatham N.H.

Mar 11, 2010 - 11:57am PT

Exactly.

August West

Trad climber

Where the wind blows strange

Mar 11, 2010 - 12:12pm PT

Am i missing something all these years or is there some majick rope trick that allows you to lead in blocks and still use the rope as the anchor?

I flip the rope. So even if leading in blocks, I never untie from the rope. Even at a hanging belay.

At first, I would occasionally get tangles from this approach. But my partner and I have it pretty dialed. When you tie in and stack the rope, you have to pay attention to how things are going to work when you leave the belay (and which direction you leave versus where your partner is going to be standing and clipped in, etc.)

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 11, 2010 - 12:23pm PT

August i know how to manage the ropes. just never seen an anchor built with only the climbing rope that allowed for the leader to secure the 2nd and then easily start leading again without the need to change things in the anchor.

bkalaska

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Mar 11, 2010 - 12:26pm PT

Chiloe- I'd think about using that if I tied a knot so a failure of a cam wouldn't put all the weight on the nut (and swing unto it at that).

Pate- I love that there is a sliding x for safety on that death triangle:) (You know... just to be safe)

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Mar 11, 2010 - 03:00pm PT

Anchors built in horizontal cracks are more likely to fail than those built in vertical cracks. A consideration.

Why is this the case?

Prod.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 11, 2010 - 03:24pm PT

Because if you are on cannon, the block forming the bottom half of the horozontal crack is likly to fall off the cliff rendering your horozonttal crack no longer a crack.....