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avitripp
climber
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Oct 12, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
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C'mon....lets sue....think about it....huge lawsuit....lot's o' cash for no work....sign me up!
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 12, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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They are asking for serious criminal negligence charges.
Thenyou pile on the "wrongful death" or similar civil suits and your Chapter 11 in no time,
not to mention possible jail time!
If you work for CCH, QUIT NOW! before you called as a witness and implicated as a co-conspirator!
Shame on CCH!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 13, 2005 - 06:10am PT
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The photos show a cam that quite obviously has the axle in the wrong location on the cam lobe of a cam that was sold.
The overall problem isn't that the axle location is obviously wrong at a glance; the big problem is that:
a) More than a couple of bad cam lobes were made before the problem was caught.
b) Bad cam lobes made it into the parts inventory.
c) Bad cam lobes made it to an assembly area.
d) Cams were assembled with the bad cam lobes.
e) Cams with bad cam lobes made it past final inspection.
f) Obviously defective cams got shipped.
Yeah, mistakes happen; bad jigs, errors in CNC programming, wrong materials get ordered, etc. but there were at least the seven opportunities listed above to catch the mistake before one got into a customer's hands. So the really big problem isn't that a mistake happened, it's that whatever QA process they employ completely failed to catch it at multiple sequential steps. And this is a visibly obvious defect, what does that say about the possibility of catching problems less visually obvious, but that affect the performance of the cam? Manufacturers of high performance products really need to reevaluate their collective mindset around production and quality after an incident like this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:32am PT
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It seems like there is a company culture at CCH of not getting too big, not getting too wrapped up in business, business, business.
I respect that, but everybody knows that we climbers suffer for it. The product is always in short supply.
I've also had arrangements to buy direct from them for the past two years. They keep saying "yes, yes, yes" but then nothing happens for months which becomes never.
That worries me that they won't wake up and deal with this before it's too late.
Get on the stick CCH. There are some things you simply can't slack on.
Peace
Karl
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 01:04pm PT
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A friend lost my orange alien, and while waiting for it to be replaced I got used to using the green BDs instead. Used the new replacement for the first time last weekend on the Enduro Corner, and had huge troubles trying to get it to fit. Couldn't figure out why - thought it was because I was sooo pumped.
Well, just measured it now, and the range from fully contracted to fully open is 33 mm to 43. Note that these are the extreme ranges, and not the usable range. The specs claim 26 to 41 mm, so something is obviously way off.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 13, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
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When is CCH gonna move into the 21st century,
and cough up the dough for their own website?
Don't tell me they aren't making enough money.
They sure aren't spending any on QC!
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
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A few years ago I had a (somewhat) similar problem with a new Alien. Similar in the sense that they blamed it on an outside source, and said the problem only affected a “few” aliens (the second statement turned out to be false).
From my conversations with the shop employee that was trying to contact CCH about this: there isn’t much of a “THEY” at CCH. It’s basically just one guy that makes cams whenever he feels like it, because he enjoys making cams. While I’m sure he now has a few other people working with him, this certainly explains the erratic availability of Aliens. Sometimes he feels like making them, sometimes he doesn’t. Sometimes he feels like shipping them, sometimes he doesn’t.
And apparently he is a bit of an eccentric. “Weirdo” was the exact word used by the shop employee I was going through.
It sounds like he is not very interested in taking the job too seriously. He just does it as sort of a hobby (of course, this was a few years ago). But I suppose that would explain the lack of concern and quality control.
From the website: http://aliencamsbycch.com
Quality control. All machined parts are manufactured in our shop with modern computer numeric controlled equipment. This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors.
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zott
Mountain climber
S. Bay, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:31pm PT
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I'm not surprized, I think CCH *had* a great product but the company didn't really mature to lead the market. This is the beginning of the end for CCH unless they take some drastic corrective action.
Couple months ago, I was in the market for small sized cams and I looked closely at the Aliens, BD camelots, Metolius TCUs and Wild Country. Compared to the others, the Aliens just look like they've been made in a garage. The action wasn't great and they just looked kind of crude. I know a lot of climbers swear by them, and I've climbed and fallen on Aliens, but it wasn't enough to make me want to buy them.
What really tipped the scales for me was that the cams on Aliens do not block each other from tipping out, since they're machined out of a flat sheet of metal, unlike ALL the others, which have stops build into the cam lobes. No matter how much care you take to place them, one day one cam will walk and that'll be the one which could've caught that fall.
--zott
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:33pm PT
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you obviously dont bigwall....
We swear buy em because they're ultra flexible dumbass.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:53pm PT
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Not just because they are flexable.
They are narrow, so they fit better in the pin scars.
Offsets are a big one for me.
The internal trigger system is also a big plus!!
So riddle me this batman, when their pattent runs out for the internal trigger system, will China start to make them and sell them for $15??
R
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zott
Mountain climber
South SF Bay Area, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:03pm PT
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No, I haven't in a while.. , but I have climbed 2000 feet of virgin rock at 19000 feet in the Himalaya, and didn't carry a single alien, and didn't miss them either.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:47pm PT
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The real end is going to be next year when CCH's patents run out on not only the internal spring design but the sleeve style trigger as well. With the explosion in the active pro market I think we are going to see these features incorporated in some wild new stuff. I love the lower six aliens I have but I think I'm going to pass on buying a set of hybrids. Maybe Trango or somebody is already working on it? Hmmmm......
Quality control in a small shop is not as easy as it seems on the surface (I know). That aside this problem should have been caught. The real kicker is that CCH is "unwilling" to talk about it. Being upfront and willing to take care of issues is a make or break part of business.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:51pm PT
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Aliens are the sh#t in Yos.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 14, 2005 - 03:42pm PT
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I love 'em for all the reasons stated above, but none of that means a damn thing if you get the willies every time you think about their QC.
I sent an email to them (him?) with a pointer to this thread and a request for comment. We'll see. I'd love nothing more than for them to step up in a way that gives confidence in their commitment to building reliable gear.
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 17, 2005 - 04:25pm PT
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I stopped off at REI on friday, with my "defective" orange alien, to compare it to what they had in stock. All three of the ones they had in on the shelf had the same range as mine. Would someone with an older one mind measuring it's fully open to fully retracted range? Now I'm really curious to see what it used to be, and if the numbers they've been quoting for the range is just wrong.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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Oct 17, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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zott,
I couldn't disagree more with your: "Compared to the others, the Aliens just look like they've been made in a garage. The action wasn't great and they just looked kind of crude."
There are so many things (described above by others) that make aliens (black through orange) the best SLCD out there. Try using them; there will be no return to TCU's or small Friends :)
Cheers,
d
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Oct 17, 2005 - 05:10pm PT
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I measured 30 to 43 mm on one of mine.
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SoloBolo
Trad climber
groveland, ca
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Oct 17, 2005 - 05:17pm PT
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darnell done said- "Aliens are the sh#t in Yos."
you should know more than anyone rich. i think you were the reason for their short supply for a minute.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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fwiw, I had this same problem last weekend. I had my hand in an orange-sized crack, and the orange wouldn't have any of it, but the green camalot worked just fine. Upon further inspection at the base, our new orange alien was drilled to far inward so that had a limited range, and it's smallest size was nearly identicle to the purple...which was drilled in the usual place. The other party climbing next to us had an old orange alien that was drilled in the proper place (closer to the inner curve of the lobe) and retracted much further. We had just bought a full set, and all of the other sizes seemed fine.
I bought it at the Berkeley REI a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to take it back today and let them know. They are aware of the problem at the Mtn. Shop, and their orange Aliens are drilled correctly.
Our guess is that someone left the jig on red when they made the orange...but admittedly, I don't know much about how these things get made.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:13am PT
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Hey Rich, is this why you airmailed that one off of Zenith?
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