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prongo
Trad climber
east side kid
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 7, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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So i got this new orange alien,went to plug it in and the thing has no range. It has a range of about 1/8" its like the lobe geometry is off. I compared it to one that was a couple years old, and it is definitly different. Any one else run into this before?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Pictures please!
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Yes, please show.
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prongo
Trad climber
east side kid
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2005 - 12:58pm PT
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I figured that was coming, sorry I will try to get some pics tonight. I think i ended up with a defective one anyboby know the phone #for cch?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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CCH
115 Lyon Street, Laramie, WY 82072
(307)721-9385
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prongo
Trad climber
east side kid
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2005 - 10:44pm PT
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thanks shack i called CCH and here is the scoop
Appearently they had some new machinery and the axle hole was bored in the wrong location so there are definitly some bad aliens out there. Not sure how many or if it affects sizes other then orange.
they said if I was not happy send it in and they will send out a good one. Great I'll do just that.
CCH seemed to know of the problem. The arc of the expansion curve is at least 200% off from factory specs seems that could very well be a safety issue. These products need to go thru exact design enginerring and testing. I question CCH for not doing a product recall even if there was not a safety issue these cams dont meet their factory specs and i wonder if they have even tested these cams to failure to see how they hold up.IMO CCH needs to take this more seriously then just offering replacements to people that call them.
If this had happened to BD i bet they would do a product recall.
What do you all think?
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Can you still give us a picture?
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Landgolier
climber
Arlington, VA
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Wait, are we talking about the regular orange one (used to be next up from red) or the kah-ray-zee new gold/bronze one in between those two that they just put out not too long ago?
Talk about a good reason to buy local (says the guy with a rope and 2 aliens in the mail)
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prongo
Trad climber
east side kid
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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okay i tried to post a picture but it wasn't workin whats the easiest way to put one on this site.
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Doctorpull
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 10, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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I work at a shop in Truckee CA and have had 2 customers bring in orange aliens with the same problem. I called CCH and they stated that "we are uncomfortable discussing the problem"...GIVE ME A BREAK...I would think that more strict product control should be in place for cams. As of yet they are even unwilling to discuss the matter let alone replace the cams for my customers.
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marky
climber
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Oct 10, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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why wouldn't they replace an SLCD that fails specs? that doesn't add up.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Oct 10, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
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That's nuts. One accident and they are toast. Talk about sitting on a time bomb! "Not willing to discuss it" (!) equals extremely poor PR and customer confidence. I'll pass on buying a new set of aliens, thank you.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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Oct 10, 2005 - 03:26pm PT
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Anybody who knows CCH knows that they didn't exactly have a business plan when they stumbled upon this product that revolutionized small cams. Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me that they haven't done anything so much as to initiate a recall.
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Dima
climber
chicago
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Oct 11, 2005 - 09:19pm PT
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Please post picture!
You can go to any site which allows you to do it.
cascadeclimbers.com is one of them. The hassle to sign up is not too great. Thanks!
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JerryGarcia
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Oct 12, 2005 - 04:04am PT
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www.photobucket.com is free hosting(no spam). Post a picture please.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Oct 12, 2005 - 12:37pm PT
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If the axle is in the wrong place, then the cams will not act as logarithmic spiral through their range assuming that the cams have the right shape. So the angle between the stem and the side of a parallel crack will change.
It follows that the outward force as a multiple of the load would depend on how cammed the placement was instead of just the crack geometry.
So not only do you not get the right camming range, but it does not have the expected force characteristics. Unless you can do the math and measure the angles, ...
It could be safe, but not worth the work or guess, IMO.
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prongo
Trad climber
east side kid
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2005 - 12:55pm PT
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yeah what he said-
with a rack of these i'd have to change my name to fumble n fall
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avitripp
climber
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Oct 12, 2005 - 05:17pm PT
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Sounds like lawsuit fodder....anyone know a good class action lawyer?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 12, 2005 - 05:45pm PT
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Dang, I love my aliens... but stuff like this doesn't fly. Kinda like looking down and noticing your belayer is getting baked and watching girls instead of watching your ass. I'd really like to hear from CCH on this. If they have any integrity at all they should have a decent response when the sheit starts to fly online like this. If people have really been told that they are "uncomfortable talking about it", well then I'm pretty uncomfortable buying more gear from them. avitripp is premature with lawsuit talk, but there is some reason to believe there is some real (willful?)negligence going on over there.
Anybody currently at CCH got the sack to speak about this? Or how about an official statement from the company? I'm betting that honesty will pay a whole lot better than smokescreens with the people that buy cams in the long run. Maybe I'll call them and invite them to step up to the plate myself.
-Bob
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avitripp
climber
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Oct 12, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
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C'mon....lets sue....think about it....huge lawsuit....lot's o' cash for no work....sign me up!
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 12, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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They are asking for serious criminal negligence charges.
Thenyou pile on the "wrongful death" or similar civil suits and your Chapter 11 in no time,
not to mention possible jail time!
If you work for CCH, QUIT NOW! before you called as a witness and implicated as a co-conspirator!
Shame on CCH!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 13, 2005 - 06:10am PT
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The photos show a cam that quite obviously has the axle in the wrong location on the cam lobe of a cam that was sold.
The overall problem isn't that the axle location is obviously wrong at a glance; the big problem is that:
a) More than a couple of bad cam lobes were made before the problem was caught.
b) Bad cam lobes made it into the parts inventory.
c) Bad cam lobes made it to an assembly area.
d) Cams were assembled with the bad cam lobes.
e) Cams with bad cam lobes made it past final inspection.
f) Obviously defective cams got shipped.
Yeah, mistakes happen; bad jigs, errors in CNC programming, wrong materials get ordered, etc. but there were at least the seven opportunities listed above to catch the mistake before one got into a customer's hands. So the really big problem isn't that a mistake happened, it's that whatever QA process they employ completely failed to catch it at multiple sequential steps. And this is a visibly obvious defect, what does that say about the possibility of catching problems less visually obvious, but that affect the performance of the cam? Manufacturers of high performance products really need to reevaluate their collective mindset around production and quality after an incident like this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:32am PT
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It seems like there is a company culture at CCH of not getting too big, not getting too wrapped up in business, business, business.
I respect that, but everybody knows that we climbers suffer for it. The product is always in short supply.
I've also had arrangements to buy direct from them for the past two years. They keep saying "yes, yes, yes" but then nothing happens for months which becomes never.
That worries me that they won't wake up and deal with this before it's too late.
Get on the stick CCH. There are some things you simply can't slack on.
Peace
Karl
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 01:04pm PT
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A friend lost my orange alien, and while waiting for it to be replaced I got used to using the green BDs instead. Used the new replacement for the first time last weekend on the Enduro Corner, and had huge troubles trying to get it to fit. Couldn't figure out why - thought it was because I was sooo pumped.
Well, just measured it now, and the range from fully contracted to fully open is 33 mm to 43. Note that these are the extreme ranges, and not the usable range. The specs claim 26 to 41 mm, so something is obviously way off.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 13, 2005 - 01:15pm PT
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When is CCH gonna move into the 21st century,
and cough up the dough for their own website?
Don't tell me they aren't making enough money.
They sure aren't spending any on QC!
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 02:11pm PT
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A few years ago I had a (somewhat) similar problem with a new Alien. Similar in the sense that they blamed it on an outside source, and said the problem only affected a “few” aliens (the second statement turned out to be false).
From my conversations with the shop employee that was trying to contact CCH about this: there isn’t much of a “THEY” at CCH. It’s basically just one guy that makes cams whenever he feels like it, because he enjoys making cams. While I’m sure he now has a few other people working with him, this certainly explains the erratic availability of Aliens. Sometimes he feels like making them, sometimes he doesn’t. Sometimes he feels like shipping them, sometimes he doesn’t.
And apparently he is a bit of an eccentric. “Weirdo” was the exact word used by the shop employee I was going through.
It sounds like he is not very interested in taking the job too seriously. He just does it as sort of a hobby (of course, this was a few years ago). But I suppose that would explain the lack of concern and quality control.
From the website: http://aliencamsbycch.com
Quality control. All machined parts are manufactured in our shop with modern computer numeric controlled equipment. This allows us to control the manufacturing processes from start to finish, eliminating possible errors from outside contractors.
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zott
Mountain climber
S. Bay, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:31pm PT
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I'm not surprized, I think CCH *had* a great product but the company didn't really mature to lead the market. This is the beginning of the end for CCH unless they take some drastic corrective action.
Couple months ago, I was in the market for small sized cams and I looked closely at the Aliens, BD camelots, Metolius TCUs and Wild Country. Compared to the others, the Aliens just look like they've been made in a garage. The action wasn't great and they just looked kind of crude. I know a lot of climbers swear by them, and I've climbed and fallen on Aliens, but it wasn't enough to make me want to buy them.
What really tipped the scales for me was that the cams on Aliens do not block each other from tipping out, since they're machined out of a flat sheet of metal, unlike ALL the others, which have stops build into the cam lobes. No matter how much care you take to place them, one day one cam will walk and that'll be the one which could've caught that fall.
--zott
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:33pm PT
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you obviously dont bigwall....
We swear buy em because they're ultra flexible dumbass.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Oct 13, 2005 - 10:53pm PT
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Not just because they are flexable.
They are narrow, so they fit better in the pin scars.
Offsets are a big one for me.
The internal trigger system is also a big plus!!
So riddle me this batman, when their pattent runs out for the internal trigger system, will China start to make them and sell them for $15??
R
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zott
Mountain climber
South SF Bay Area, CA
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:03pm PT
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No, I haven't in a while.. , but I have climbed 2000 feet of virgin rock at 19000 feet in the Himalaya, and didn't carry a single alien, and didn't miss them either.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:47pm PT
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The real end is going to be next year when CCH's patents run out on not only the internal spring design but the sleeve style trigger as well. With the explosion in the active pro market I think we are going to see these features incorporated in some wild new stuff. I love the lower six aliens I have but I think I'm going to pass on buying a set of hybrids. Maybe Trango or somebody is already working on it? Hmmmm......
Quality control in a small shop is not as easy as it seems on the surface (I know). That aside this problem should have been caught. The real kicker is that CCH is "unwilling" to talk about it. Being upfront and willing to take care of issues is a make or break part of business.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Oct 13, 2005 - 11:51pm PT
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Aliens are the sh#t in Yos.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Oct 14, 2005 - 03:42pm PT
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I love 'em for all the reasons stated above, but none of that means a damn thing if you get the willies every time you think about their QC.
I sent an email to them (him?) with a pointer to this thread and a request for comment. We'll see. I'd love nothing more than for them to step up in a way that gives confidence in their commitment to building reliable gear.
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Sir Run-it-out
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 17, 2005 - 04:25pm PT
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I stopped off at REI on friday, with my "defective" orange alien, to compare it to what they had in stock. All three of the ones they had in on the shelf had the same range as mine. Would someone with an older one mind measuring it's fully open to fully retracted range? Now I'm really curious to see what it used to be, and if the numbers they've been quoting for the range is just wrong.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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Oct 17, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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zott,
I couldn't disagree more with your: "Compared to the others, the Aliens just look like they've been made in a garage. The action wasn't great and they just looked kind of crude."
There are so many things (described above by others) that make aliens (black through orange) the best SLCD out there. Try using them; there will be no return to TCU's or small Friends :)
Cheers,
d
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Fingerlocks
Trad climber
where the climbin's good
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Oct 17, 2005 - 05:10pm PT
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I measured 30 to 43 mm on one of mine.
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SoloBolo
Trad climber
groveland, ca
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Oct 17, 2005 - 05:17pm PT
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darnell done said- "Aliens are the sh#t in Yos."
you should know more than anyone rich. i think you were the reason for their short supply for a minute.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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fwiw, I had this same problem last weekend. I had my hand in an orange-sized crack, and the orange wouldn't have any of it, but the green camalot worked just fine. Upon further inspection at the base, our new orange alien was drilled to far inward so that had a limited range, and it's smallest size was nearly identicle to the purple...which was drilled in the usual place. The other party climbing next to us had an old orange alien that was drilled in the proper place (closer to the inner curve of the lobe) and retracted much further. We had just bought a full set, and all of the other sizes seemed fine.
I bought it at the Berkeley REI a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to take it back today and let them know. They are aware of the problem at the Mtn. Shop, and their orange Aliens are drilled correctly.
Our guess is that someone left the jig on red when they made the orange...but admittedly, I don't know much about how these things get made.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:13am PT
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Hey Rich, is this why you airmailed that one off of Zenith?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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They either need to either hire or sellout to someone that knows something about manufacturing at this point. Just got through looking at my hybrid sets close and noticed the two red/yellows have entirely different axle diameters (one has the same axle as the blue/black), cam axle hole centering varies [slightly] between the pair across all four sizes, and the actual plan/finished shape of the cam lobes varies a bit between the pair also across all four sizes. Definitely a craft/artisan operation versus a professional manufacturing one. I think Dave should let someone adopt him...
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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Oh man..., I had dismissed this thread the first go around, but this really is too much.
I have taken pretty long falls on my old set of aliens, to the point that I have recently had to replace the red.
I guess I'll have to compare my newer aliens to the old ones...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"BD do a product recall"
Now that's funny! It would be become a previous model that they no longer support, like black #4 camalots.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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[edit]
You know this is serious sh#t. It's now not just the ranges and axles as mentioned here but that other thread linked from rc.n00b shows a total cam failure from a small fall on a new orange. WTF is going on at CCH? The number of people who depend on these things for their lives is huge. I won't buy another alien until CCH takes action on this. Nobody should be buying these cams right now, and perhaps if CCH does not take action, climbers should take the issue to the local gear shops.
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WBraun
climber
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Did their crimp machine go out of calibration accidentally and they were unaware of it during a production run?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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pretty sure there isn't a crimp on that joint, werner. they use a sliver sodder(sp?) looks nice, but there's a reason other manufactures stopped using them in the head units. bomber when properly made. problem is, when they're incorrectly made they hold about 30 lbs and look just like the good ones. crimps/swages you can at least measure and get a reasonable estimate of material displaced.
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Gene
climber
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There seem to be two issues with the aliens. The first is the misplaced axle, while the other is a weak connection where the cable attaches above the plate that hold the wires to the cam lobes. Based on what I gather so far, the problems are not related. Is it the consensus that these problems have only been found in the orange aliens?
I just checked my two orange aliens. One has an opaque orange plastic clip-in tube with a red sling. The other “orange” one uses semi-transparent RED plastic tubing material with a red sling. The former is marked 0501; the latter 0902, which I take to be month and year of manufacture.
Anybody have the numeric codes on aliens that have failed?
Thanks.
Gene
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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The orange that failed had been bought like a week before, so unless it sat in the drawer at REI for a while it was probably recently made. (BTW, the stock drawers below the glass cases where they keep the cams at REI are like limbo for aliens, there must be hundreds of them squirreled away at REI's around the country.)
I used to defend CCH against allegations of too much unspecified fvckness in their workmanship, but this is getting to be troubling. If nothing else, all new cams are getting aggressively bounce tested before I leave the ground from here on out. Probably should have been doing this anyway, but I've been lazy and thinking I can tell a dud by looking at it.
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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I just peed down my leg...
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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To control the quality aspects of producing climbing equipment is not a hugely difficult science.
We are, when all said and done, dealing with lives here. If the quality control aspects of producing aliens goes unchecked there could possibly be serious consequences.
I do not know the guy making aliens but I ask him to instigate an immediate recall and commence a system of quality control and testing of his equipment.
I do not believe I am close enough to be of help to him, unfortuately.
Howie.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Here's the email I just sent to cch@aliencamsbycch.com
Dear Folks -
I've been using aliens for many years now. They are an essential part of my rack, and I love them. I've taken several falls on them and have never been disappointed by their performance.
However, I've recently read a few things which make me wonder if I should ever buy any more aliens. These two threads cause me great concern about your quality control:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=104150&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=105618&f=0&b=0
I'm also very concerned that despite these reports, there's been no recall so far as I'm aware, in fact no response at all to the climbing community. These problems (especially the first one!) could easily result in someone dying, and it makes it highly unlikely that I will ever buy another alien until I hear that these issues have been resolved and any potentially defective items recalled.
An (up until now) very happy customer,
Forest Hill
Tucson, AZ
520-360-6700
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hardman
Trad climber
the valley
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cold solder joint.
use induction heating and you find a dependable, repeatable, & uniform heating process. CCH uses a flame torch which is neither of the above.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Forest -
Nice effort. Let's hope they respond to your letter. But I'm not gonna hold my breath. They never had a word to say either publically (obviously) or privately when I sent a similar note to them the first time around for this thread. I figured I'd hear from them in a normal climbing slacker time frame of a week or two... but no dice.
After they didn't respond at all to me I've lost confidence in their ability to deliver. My lack of confidence is based more on their lack of response to the obvious issues than to the technical problems in the first place. I could more easily accept that some new trainee (I hope) bungled a few orange pieces if the company woke up and took all reasonable precautions to make sure nobody paid in flesh for the mistake. Of course I'd also expect them to overhaul their QC program going forward to make sure bad pieces didn't get to shelves in the future.
--->bob
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Well, CCH has responded. I can't say I'm very impressed. It doesn't exactly instill much confidence in their product or testing procedures.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Post it up... enquiring minds and all that!
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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bump
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Cloudraker posted this in another thread, but it's here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/104279
"The Silver brazed connections on Aliens are made by experienced ,skilled people who take great care in the quality of the braze. The accusations being made on this site are quite serious .
An examination by a certified metallurgical lab on the device in question is necessary in order to prove or disprove the claims made regarding alleged failure of the brazed connection. Without an actual report by a lab we will assume this is a staged hoax.
The cable on a 1.5 orange alien will hold over 3500 pounds, far more force than a falling climber could ever generate. When tested on a machine the cable will break ,not pull out of the cable eye.
David Waggoner at CCH"
He doesn't even address the observation made by many that it doesn't appear to have been the cable, but rather the joint, that failed.
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