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David Cummings
Trad climber
CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 6, 2009 - 12:07pm PT
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I have had these slip on my a few times. Anyone else had this problem?
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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yes, i am getting rid of my pair. i like to lead with my right jug, but my right nforce ascender, even brand new, yielded an occasional disconcerting 1" slip. forced me to lead with my left while cursing those ascenders. they are a case of complete over design IMO, adding more parts and moving parts where none are needed. petzl is the way to go i hear.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Nothing like a 1" heart atack. I have Patzl's and yellow Jumars. Neither have this problem. I like the Jumars better, but have no real imperiacal reason as to why.
Prod.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Thanks for the feedback. I need to replace my old clamps and I'll stick with Petzl.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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I like the CMI ultra ascenders. Are these even made anymore?
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Durango, CO
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I'm with Gunkie on the CMI Ultracenders - my favorite. They're about the size of Jumars, but have better ergonomics. They are stronger too, but that hopefully NEVER come into play.
I can see where those with big meaty paws would prefer the Petzls.
But those BD things??? I like BD, their people and most of their products, but I just don't see the point, except to say, "Look how cool these look! They have more pivots than a FS mountain bike. Look! Cool, huh?"
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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coz, ran into scott stowe at the crags last week. he told me he had personally witnessed his client's jumars ( no idea what brand ) popping off the rope 5 times over the years. all were while following traverses and incorrectly side loading the leading jug. this was despite a lot of careful instruction he gives them on that specific issue. it's never happened to me, but it highlighted for me how easy it really is to pop one off....
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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well, to continue to rag on those nforce jugs, i also need to say that the mechanism for disengaging the rope is one of the least intuitive i've seen. three days in and it still felt awkward, far inferior to the old yellows and inferior to the current petzls as well - we done yet?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Wow, I didn't know all of this. Thanks for sharing it.
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wayne w
Trad climber
the nw
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Clipping a biner through the top hole of your jug outside the rope is a bit of a hassle when you have to remove/replace it. But it will keep the jug from jumping off of the rope. Sounds like BD should include two free biners with every pair of their jugs for this very purpose..
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kent
Trad climber
SLC, Ut
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I've used my BD ascenders on over 50 pitches and I've never had them come off of the rope. I really dig the release mechanism which can be activated by pushing down on the top of the jug. Quick and easy to move with them.
I have no experience with other jumars however...
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David Cummings
Trad climber
CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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It is a shame that people seem to be having the same problem I did. I would consider myself a BD snob and have only had good luck with their stuff. This is the first time I don't like something that BD makes.
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Don't let go
Trad climber
Yorba Linda, CA
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I just ordered a pair of BD's from REI. I haven't picked them up yet. Can I return them if I don't use them? I was all excited to get them on sale, but after hearing all of these horror stories I am getting nervous. Can I return them if I don't use them? I have never jugged a line before and I don't know if that will cause the BD's to work more to my advantage or disadvantage.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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If you ordered them at REI you can return them even if you used them; but I think they are obliged to trash them - kind of a waste (or some dirtbag employee sneaks off with them. ha) . If you haven't picked them up it shouldn't be a problem.
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David Cummings
Trad climber
CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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REI takes everything back, but join the anti-REI movement, support your local small gear shop!
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WBraun
climber
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REI takes everything back
Why's that?
Nothing in their store even works ....?
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Bay Area
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When I first started using the nForce ascenders I also noticed a tendency for the lead/right ascender to slip just a fraction when I weighted it before it caught (and yes, this did lead to a few jumps in my pulse rate).
With more use I've stopped noticing this; I think I've (more or less unconsciously) adapted my jugging to include a 1/4 second pause between pushing it up the rope and weighting it, which seems to help it catch (?)
I certainly haven't had any problems with them disengaging from the rope (though I always have a biner through the top hole) and I don't think they're dangerous per se. I haven't used the petzls at all, so I'm not in a position to compare them, but I'm not so unhappy with the BDs that I'm about to run out and swap them.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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I thought long and hard before replacing my jugs. I eventually went with BD and have been pleased. As with any new piece of gear, there is a learning curve and some new rules of the road for safety, etc. They are a bit more "techie" so I would not be inclined to put them in the hands of a first-time jug-or-not.
Are they dangerous? I think not. People were afraid of Friends at first since they would rotate but we all came to understand how best to use them and what to accept as normal differences from passive pro.
Let's hear from Metcalf and BD if they have had too many complaints. I forwarded the thread to them today.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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The BD's are just knock-offs of the Kong ascenders, supposedly improved but not really. I used to have the latter and replaced them with Petzl for all the reasons stated here. But now I've switched to CAMP ascenders and like them even better. For icy or muddy ropes, the Ushba handle design was by far the best (no cams, just bends the rope) but nobody makes them now and there was room for improvement in getting on/off the rope quickly.
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WBraun
climber
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Cozgrove (X BD Tech Rep) was at my place and gave me and my girl a Demo of how easy it was to make the rope pop completely out of the new device.
Whoa, is this true?
That would be really scary and dangerous, and not only a life threatening safety factor?
Can anyone confirm this?
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Ben Emery
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Perhaps if coz could elaborate on what conditions he's seen them come off the rope under, or, better yet, post a video somewhere? That way those of us that use them could set up some home tests to decide how big an issue we think it is...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Medusa... I don't suppose there is a video of this?
Cozgrove (X BD Tech Rep) was at my place and gave me and my girl a Demo of how easy it was to make the rope pop completely out of the new device.
Its junk and should be removed from the public in short order..
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Blinky
Trad climber
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Yellow Jumars are the coolest, Petzls are good for using everyday.
...and for sure, if you have a local gear shop, spend your money with them.
Personally I have no use for Kong, it's the KFC of safety gear.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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still amazed the Clog never became the "benchmark" ascender.
think it could have been refined a bit farther, too
with a short super-stout clip in loop (to keep the 'biner
from getting cranked on an edge) the inner plastic handle
could have been moulded to allow the sling to slip into
its forward spot, as when cleaning horizontal.
felt the Clog frame, overall, just a touch too big overall
others felt not.
as far as a Yos type big wall/NIAD ascender, it always
seemed to have a bunch of fans.
oh well...
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Brendan
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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I've climbed the captain a few times with the BD ascenders.
Of those thousands of feet of ascending, I have never had them pop off (even on hard traverses) but I am quite accustomed to them slipping.
The slip is generally about a half inch or so, but I have had it happen up to 4 inches. It is not the result of a sticky camming system, it is a fault in the design.
I can't exactly figure out what causes it, but i do notice that it occurs much more often when I am moving quickly. Perhaps when you are moving the ascender up and you partially weight it with your foot/body before the camming action of the handle is able to be fully settled, it slips. This is a result of the design in which the entire handle moves, which is not an issue with the petzl.
They are a little unnerving, but I am not confident that they are unsafe. By my experience with them, you DEFINITELY don't want to jug ropes less than 9 mill, or the distance that it takes for a slip to catch might be exponentially compounded, not to mention a much much higher chance of them popping. I've jugged with the BD and petzl enough to get a good feel, and the petzl ones are much more secure. Although I was really stoked on them when I first the BD's,
if I were you, I would buy the petzl ascenders.
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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we should bump this for the surprising lack of input from BD. i'm sure their eyes are all over this thread, yet no response....
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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No. Where Medusa?
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Thats a bummer, what went down with your girl?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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I've got one BD and one Petzl, and no slippage issues here. My partner dropped my right hand Petzl a while back, so I replaced it with the BD. It took a little getting used to, but no slippage issues.
However, I have previously had my Petzl's slip on me. Specifically when jugging my static line (9.5mm New England Rope KM-III static, with a pretty tight outer weave). Only the upper jug would slip, and the new BD upper jug replacement does not slip on it (slippage was rare witht eh Petzl, but I've had none thus far with the BD). Go figure.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I had my new Petzl jumar pop off the rope. It was carelessness by me though, as I was trying to move fast jugging and cleaning a traversing pitch and I moved the jumar past the piece I was going to clean and inadvertently had the handle up when i put it on the rope. I didn't check if it was seated tight, and when I weighted the jumar, it twisted and popped off. Probably any jumar would in similar act of stupidity. I have never used the BD nForce so have not idea what they are like.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jumars still rule for wall climbing. Why mess around?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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C'mon Studly, do you want to die? I don't, and I have never had an ascender pop off a rope in miles and miles of jugging and cleaning. The ascender didn't pop off the rope, you simply didn't put it on the rope correctly. Again, Do you want to die?
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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ALL handled ascending devices can be twisted off the rope, don't think otherwise.
Please back up your equipment using biners, gri-gris, or knots.
There is nothing especially dangerous about the BD ascenders, and they have the added bonus of gripping more tightly on icy or muddy ropes if you alpine climb or spelunk.
Medusa,
BD would have to destroy your ascenders when they got them, why do you think you should be entitled to a full refund?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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yeah, that woke me up, don't want to die, waaaaaaaaa. I was trying to clean the pitch in record time, and got reckless. As donini once said, your other jumar is your backup and thank godness for that. I now carefully place my jug on the line and engage teeth. Nnever had that happen before. Here's Rick H. on the pitch.
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kent
Trad climber
SLC, Ut
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I had the jugs slip a few times when I first started using them. I think it is due to the handle design, which is designed to turn the weight placed on the ascender into a camming force onto the rope. If you are moving quickly and weight the ascender too fast it will slip slightly before fully engaging.
I haven't had them slip in ~40 pitches now.
Two features that I think are really nice:
-the large carabiner hole capable of rotating a large locker 360 degrees
- The "thumb bump" on top of the handle that releases the cam but doesn't unlock the locking mechanism. This feature makes it really easy to move the bottom jug up at the beginning of a pitch or after a back up knot, without worrying about pulling the jug off the rope.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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The best ascender ever made were clogs, wish mine had never been stolen. i have Petzl's that I just can't feel the love for. Had gray Jumar, but word was not to trust them once dropped....
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Jaybro,
Had gray Jumar, but word was not to trust them once dropped....
Is that because they are cast Alum? I have some Yellow ones that I like better than my Petzls but am a little weary because of thinking I heard something about them breaking in half? Has this ever happened? I do have my lower hole tied into the upper hole, just in case.
Prod.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Studly,
I use my brain as the ultimate back up. (get it?)
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Quick Mark, the coffee's burning...... (Studly sneaks out of room)
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Studly, when I'm done with you this summer, you'll be strong, fast and safe. How's that?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sounds great! Ive been lifting weights regularly, shoveling snow, hitting the rock gym until total failure, and even adjusted my diet. and the Mark Hudon school of pain has not even opened its doors for the season, so I better be ready.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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I workout Monday, Wednesday and Friday after about 4. Come on over.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Studly,
Is that Dana's arch?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Yes, Dana's Arch On upper Town Wall at Index.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Think they'd trade for a bamboo shaft zero gully north wall hammer (50 cm)?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Need to get Kate on this thread. She uses the BD ascenders and tells me she likes them.
I haven't tried them much at all, but I have rejected them completely because I don't like the way the handle pivots as you weight them. I'll stick with Petzls, thanks.
If Coz says they're junk, that's good enough for me. Others should be aware of this.
Safety bump.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 10, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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LOL, dammit, I had forgot all about this thread. I had recently bought a couple of like new (but used) Nforce ascenders. Curious to me at the time they were very inexpensive. (there was a reason for that, which we will get too). Being a gear whore, I got trolled in.
Played hookey from work yesterday and the most annoying thing happened (repeatedly) when I got them out for the very first time. The F**ouiking top ascender would often slip an inch or 3 before randomly engaging while jugging. Total pisser. The second lower one never did. I tried to figure it out, and noticed that if I jugged slower and tried to "set" the top one it seemed to not occur. That got me through the day and so I decided I'd see if anyone else had this issue and what they had done about it. Looked this issue up on google and see I'd posted on this very thread on Supertopo back in 2009 about the Black Diamonds Nforce ascenders slipping. Forgot all about it. LOL! Guess someone needs to pay better attention.
Never had anything like this happen. Have jugged on CMI's, Clogs, HB's, Petzls, Yates and both the grey and yellow Jumars.
Wish I hadn't painted my colors on them as I'm thinking they're going onto Ebay. Cheap:-) Too bad, I otherwise like the release and the feel better than the Petzl. The lower one slides great after you've tied in short and the rope weight isn't there.
Pretty topical given this thread on crampon failures: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1767636&tn=0&mr=0
Not preplanned on my part. Some BD gear kicks ass. (in a good way duh:-) Not these.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Apr 10, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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I used Clogs for many years, really liked 'em, until the biner holes began to get worn, oversized with mushroomed edges. Mid-1990s dropped one 400 feet, bought a pair of the CMI ultra-ascenders. They rock. Indestructible.
Seventeen years later they squeak badly and are somewhat worn where they scrape on the rock, so decided (just a couple weeks ago) it was time to retire them. Hard to find them these days, they now seem marketed more at tree trimmers and suchlike (Amazon seem to have them).
Had choice N-Force or Petzl. To me, the N-Force just looked too complicated; more parts to potentially fail, loosen up or wear out, so decided on the Petzls. They sure are lighter then the CMIs, though they will doubtless wear out faster.
This thread makes me feel I made the right choice. If the N-Forces slip that would really suck. Effective, non-slipping jumars have been around the US since 1962. Epic design fail to invent a new design that is both more complex AND less effective.
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SofCookay
climber
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Apr 10, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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Yep, they slip on me as well and it's not only annoying, it's kinda scary. I think they might be going on Ebay soon...
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 10, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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I've had to use the BD ones a few times and every time after using them I swore never to use them again. I've jugged nearly as much as anyone I know, minus Gerberding, CMac, Nanook and a couple other El Cap freaks but I'm right up there with them. Suffice to say I know how to use ascenders. But for some reason I couldn't figure out how to jug at full speed without them slipping a few inches almost every time.
The last time I used them was to jug a stuck rope while descending Fitzroy down in Patagonia. I literally stopped using the top one and replaced it with a prussic mid way up the pitch after I became so frustrated with the slipping. If they were mine I wouldn't of hesitated to throw them off the mountain right then and there.
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Andrew F
Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
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Apr 10, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
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Same thing happens on mine. You have to consciously engage them each stroke and pull straight down or they can slip a few inches. The pivots on one of mine was bad (felt like it had sand in it and was sticky, even though it was new) and the cam would not close itself under spring force. I sent it back to BD and they replaced it, but both pairs with functional pivots still slip. Scary.
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wallyvirginia
Trad climber
Huttersund, Jämtland, Sweden,
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
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I've jugged a bit on both petzl ascension and bd nforce ascenders. Not as much on big walls (some though) as on free hanging static ropes doing rope access construction work, but still. Mostly using only one handled ascender and a chest ascender.
As I was self employed I bought my own gear. I had learned jugging with petzl ascenders but started out buying the nforce ascenders (in 2008) as I thought they looked cool and I liked that you could "spin" a locking biner in the hole at the bottom.. My problems with the bd ascenders, however, didn't concern slipping.
When I was jugging with the handled ascender/chest ascender setup the angle on the nforce ascender somehow made the rope run over my little and ring finger. At first it was just annoying but after a few days of jugging lines it started to hurt, even though I was wearing gloves. I tried to hold it differently but couldn't make it not hurt my fingers. Then I accidentally dropped one of the them, it fell maybe 15 feet and landed on a concrete floor. After that it wouldn't close automatically. I couldn't see any damage, the spring just didn't function anymore. And I couldn't open it or fix it. It would still clamp if I hung on it but it wouldn't stay up as the spring was not functioning. Of course you shouldn't drop gear so I couldn't return it to BD but I guess since the whole handle is connected to the spring it's just a more sensitive design and therefore it's more likely do brake when it gets a little banged up. =(
I bought the petzl ascenders instead and have hade no problems what so ever after that, just love them.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 10, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
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"Yep, they slip on me as well and it's not only annoying, it's kinda scary."
I had a pair of Clogs when I did the Shield- the return spring broke early on- you had to hold your thumb against the cam to get it to bite. It slipped over and over...each time almost made me puke...
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Apr 11, 2012 - 05:04am PT
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The nforce jobs are pretty much crap. Retake on an old Kong design that was crap like 30 years ago. Really a shame to see what was once the world leader in climbing gear go to pot. Condolences to YC.
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SofCookay
climber
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Apr 11, 2012 - 09:50am PT
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I sent an email to customer service at BD to inquire about the slippage - here's what they had to say:
"The issue you are having stems from pulling out on the ascender when you are moving it up, and is something I got very used to doing from other brands (or may seem natural even if you haven’t used anything else). If you pull out on the handle as you move it up, this will not allow the cam to engage until the weight of your body on the ascender over-rides the outward force of pulling on the ascender. Pushing up the ascender and being conscious with technique should alleviate the slippage you are experiencing. There is no design flaw, just a difference in the 4-bar linkage design over a traditional ascender, but the advantages in our mind of the 4-bar really out-weighs the extra bit of time needed to help your technique adapt. I find I do the same thing you are mentioning when I am moving super fast as well, and my technique suffers."
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 11, 2012 - 10:54am PT
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Ahhh, it's our fault. User error. OK then....hmmm. At this point I'm glad Mikey already posted. Mikey, you don't know how to jug. It's not the equipment, it's you. LOL.
Actually, I might retry. The lower ascender worked great.....it must not be doing the slipping for others, maybe it just is a bad habit I need to unlearn. Interesting it doesn't occur with all the other brands.
"The issue you are having stems from pulling out on the ascender when you are moving it up, and is something I got very used to doing from other brands (or may seem natural even if you haven’t used anything else). If you pull out on the handle as you move it up, this will not allow the cam to engage until the weight of your body on the ascender over-rides the outward force of pulling on the ascender. Pushing up the ascender and being conscious with technique should alleviate the slippage you are experiencing. There is no design flaw, just a difference in the 4-bar linkage design over a traditional ascender, but the advantages in our mind of the 4-bar really out-weighs the extra bit of time needed to help your technique adapt. I find I do the same thing you are mentioning when I am moving super fast as well, and my technique suffers."
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2012 - 10:56am PT
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There shouldn't be any slippage at any time on an ascender under normal conditions, except: (ie ice on the rope for example).
I must be stupid to believe one needs to use these ascenders in a certain way to avoid possible slippage.
I've never ever had slippage on any ascender except on iced up ropes since I've used a variety of major brands over the years except for this particular nForce model.
When one cleans overhanging roofs you'll be grabbing those handles every which way.
I'd be sh!tting bricks if I had slippage every time I maneuvered them wrong.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Apr 11, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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So, if I was going to upgrade a 40+ year old set of Jumars, what would you recommend ?
Mostly they would be used for crevasse self rescue or cleaning the occasional aid pitch.
In the alpine I tend to use a set of 7.7mm. ice twins. Only the CMI Expedition is rated to work on a rope that thin. Anyone have any experience with these ?
From the picture they look pretty simple and robust, comparable in price and weight to the Petzl and BD.
I've never had any problems of any sort with the Jumars. The formed plate just seems like a better and stronger way to construct the body of an ascender instead of an aluminum casting.
Is there an actual documented case of a cast aluminum ascender frame breaking in normal use ?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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"So, if I was going to upgrade a 40+ year old set of Jumars, what would you recommend ?"
Just use your bare hands, what could go wrong? :-)
There's small idiosyncrasies associated with every different ascender.
Try out some and see which provides you the best efficiency getting off and on the rope along with it's ergonomics (feel) .....
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Apr 11, 2012 - 11:58am PT
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They are quite possibly the worst ascenders ever made. I had to use them on a wall once. Slowed me down by probably an hour overall on a speed ascent and caused mucho grief non-stop. Petzl.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Apr 11, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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So, if I was going to upgrade a 40+ year old set of Jumars, what would you recommend ?
I've never liked them, but go with the Petzl product.... the blue and gold things.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Apr 11, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
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I've only used my partner's while doing stuff around the base (mini-bear-hauling, for example) and at belays/hauls and was bothered by the slip and was otherwise just really clumsy on the fancy jig-jagged thumb shifter. I figure that it's just a learning curve issue, but the Petzl (whose quirks I happen to already know) work too well for me to invest in the struggle with a new brand.
It's like D biners vs. ovals...D's might be a little stronger than the ovals, but if I'm going to sh#t myself every time they shift (even if the shift is my own "user error"), I'm going to stick with the still safe-enough ovals.
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