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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:45pm PT
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The guys who complain about retrobolting and desecration of the past by newbies are the same ones who open the door to this behavior by supporting the altering of a 40 year-old route, even if it was by the FA.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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I don't understand why it is OK for the bolt to stay in just because Clark placed it. A history of stewardship does not grant that person the right to add bolts to existing climbs. I am sure everyone appreciates the work Clark has put in, but that does not give him carte blanche to add bolts to routes at Suicide.
I think it is a very good suggestion that if Clark really wants to add bolts to one of his climbs then he should move the bolt to below where it intersects with Surprise. That seems like a very simple solution to the problem.
Bruce
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Or, as Darryl pointed out, the topo could be inaccurate about the routes intersecting [before reaching the belay]. A topo is just one source of info, and sometimes the original line of a climb is not shown correctly on it.
I agree, doing community service doesn't grant rights to retrobolt - otherwise Bruce and I could wreak havoc if we wanted to!! I am sure Clark had some reasons for placing the bolts; I am just curious about what they are.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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yeah, all other things being equal, this issue makes for a good discussion topic: given the heavily-bolted nature of the weeping wall, is there any justification for placing any new bolts anywhere on that slab? if ever there was a place where a permanent moratorium on new bolts was appropriate, it's the weeping wall.
i'm not advocating removal of the bolt in question. and having not climbed there for 20 years, i'm inclined to trust clark's judgement. still...every time i did clam chowder, from the mid-70's through the mid-80's, i found the protection to be adequate. indeed, i found the protection to be adequate on every route i ever did at suicide. so...why a new bolt? why there, and why now?
food for thought.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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I don't care who placed it. What makes Surprise Surprise is the long runout to the belay.
This is a brand new bolt that destroys a classic climb.
I did clam chowder about 5 times without this new bolt.
Juan
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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henny,
When you climb CC do you not use the anchor at the top of the 1st pitch of Suprise? If not, where do you belay for the 2nd pitch of CC? I climbed it yesterday and am not sure where I would belay for the 2nd pitch of CC if not at the shared anchor.
The bolt didn't make any sense to me for either climb given its proximity to the anchor albiet I have not climbed here nearly as much as you and Clark.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Yeah, Clam Chowder and Surprise share the same first belay. The climbing up to the ledge can be done independently but the anchor is the same.
It's a fuzzy mess. There's too many routes too close together on the Weeping Wall. The low angle nature of it allows you to go pretty much anywhere you want at anytime. Throw things in like routes even sharing bolts (Revelation/Serpentine, common anchors of CC/Surprise, etc...) and it gets messy. Add a bolt anywhere on the wall and you're likely to affect something else somehow. I have to agree with bvb, it would be best if there was never another bolt added to the wall, period.
Clark opened a damn can of worms. When I talked to him he mentioned that he didn't have internet acccess so I doubt we'll hear from him in this thread.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 13, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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The first ascentionist placed the bolt. No one said you have to clip it, if it "ruins" your climb. If he pulled one of the bolts, I'm sure Juan you would whine about that.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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I have to agree that with the sentiment that the decision to place the bolt was poorly thought out.
One, the bolt affects a neighboring route, The Surprise, that didn't have a bolt on that pitch.
Two, although Clam Chowder and Surprise share that first belay, the decision to place the bolt at that spot for Clam Chowder doesn't really make sense since you're already on the easy stuff on Surprise. It just seems superfluous at that point.
Third, I think Clint's point is valid. The route has been there for so long and has had so many ascents in its original state without anybody seriously getting hurt, there's no need at this point in time to retrobolt it, even if the FA party is doing the bolting. Not that this logic applies to Clark (who I've seen soloing routes on the Weeping Wall), but if I put up a route long ago and am now too much of a wuss to climb it, that doesn't give me the right to go and retrobolt it so my wussy ass can now climb it. That's just a bad precedent.
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The_Kid
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
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remember guy clark is the most local of climbers in Idyllwild and he is an elite climber and the rules of rock climbing are simple but i think the number one rule of all is don't piss off the locals so please don't piss off the locals it could cause some serious consequences in the future.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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who you calling and old curmudgeon wes you young whippersnapper you!
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Nov 13, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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Read the guidebook scan of Surprise completely from the top of the page. Although you don't see the route name, the first paragraph on the page is Clam Chowder, and it references Surprise. Note also the reference to Clam Chowder's belay bolt in Surprise. Those routes have been forever linked with bolt confusion/sharing. Nothing new. Same old same old.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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It really does not matter to me who placed the bolt (or even why). After this many decades and literally tens of thousands of ascents, it clearly does not belong there.
This is not a route that was recently put up and the FA team is now tweaking the protection. It is not a route that remains rarely climbed due to death defying run outs.
If Clark or anyone else on the FA wanted to "fix" the route, they have waited far too long to do so and have no more moral authority to add a bolt than anyone else. It is salient to observe that Clark has lived (and climbed) in Idyllwild almost continuously since the route was established. Why wait til now? What is the sudden need to fix a problem that does not exist?
Sorry, but that bolt should be removed. Carefully and quickly.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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Wes - I really don't think these things need to be viewed in such black and white terms...
It's not that simple - either / or...
Personally I wish Clark had not placed this bolt, but I wouldn't chop it out of deference to Clark. I really like and admire Clark and he has been a great contributor to the climbing scene in Idyllwild.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:44pm PT
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Wes. You propose a false choice and one not suggested by what I posted; a classic logical fallacy.
It is a well recognized principal that an inexcusable delay in exercising a right leads to forfeiting that right. That is the situation presented here.
Clark has had ample opportunity to exercise his FA prerogative and perhaps add a bolt. There has been nothing to restrict his ability to add this bolt -- He lives in Idllywild and in fact climbs at the crags very often (and has bolted many other routes and anchors over the last 30 years). I'm sure he has done Clam Chowder and Surprise hundreds of times.
There is as little reason to add a bolt to Surprise/Clam Chowder as there would be to add a bolt to... Double Cross. And even if Woody were still with us, I doubt even he would be recognized as having any right to place a bolt where so many have trod for so long.
And, yes Kris, I admire and like Clark very much. This is not anything personal about Clark. In fact, I propose that Clark remove the bolt.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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I'm with Kris on this one. Normally, I would say get rid of the bolt. I first led the Surprise in Robbins boots, Stoppers and first-generation Hexcentrics (the kind that were symmetric about the vertical axis). So what? When I first did the climb, it wasn't as an act of death defiance. I'd been told that most of the route was easy, and all of it enjoyable. What I saw confirmed that, and I therefore was comfortable running it out.
My original post on this thread marveled that a new bolt could be placed on Suprise and no one know the story or do anything about it. Now that I know both the story and who placed it, I would defer to his judgment.
I can't make this a hard-and-fast rule, of course, because I don't have the same knowledge of, and therefore the same respect for, the judgment of all climbers.
John
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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A discussion which I'm following with interest, in part because I'm working to restore Slab Alley, the first route climbed on the Apron at Squamish, in 1961. It's become disused. http://www.squamishclimbing.com/squamish_climbing_bb/viewtopic.php?t=2522
Both of those who did the FA are dead. For now, all I'm doing is cleaning the route, and I'll replace the existing bolts in the spring. There are some larger questions regarding what to do about two bolts that were added in 1974 to protect a traverse (to deter piton use) - one at least may still make sense. Also about whether it would be appropriate to do anything about some long, moderate slab runouts in the upper section, and possibly some minor re-routing. There has been some healthy discussion - these things should not be done hastily.
Once the preliminary work is done, I'm planning to do Slab Alley with a variety of climbers, and ask others to do it, to determine what if any consensus there is. If there is no consensus, then I'll leave the route as it was - cleaner, new bolts exactly where the old ones were, no more.
There has been an awkward history at Squamish of a few who clean up old routes, add bolts, and purport to re-name them.
And then there's Werner's thread about museum climbs, at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487 Or was it about museum climbers?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 13, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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Daddy is off to fight a Bolt War. Robbins and Warren would be proud.
Why add bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder? Thats insane.
Juan
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 13, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Anders, it is nice to see that some climbers give thought and care into what is really a limited resource.
But, as you probably divined, neither Clam Chowder or Surprise are "museum" climbs. Rather, they (particularly Surprise) log hundreds of ascents each season. No one really seems to be arguing that the bolt in question is necessary or even adds to the "safety" of the climb.
Frankly, I'm still scratching my head over this one.
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