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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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I was going to use a simple example.
If someone painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa everyone would call it vandalism. No question.
If Leonardo had done it, most of us would think it ridiculous, but not question his right to do it.
Now, it turns out that she originally had eyebrows, pink skin and the painting is now nothing like the original.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/6555592/Mona-Lisa-had-eyebrows.html
Would it be recognized if restored?
Nothings all that simple.
And, no, neither climb is a masterpiece although Surprise does have historic significance.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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Yes, we get it in another context, where people put in 'squeeze' routes, particularly on the Apron, usually cleaning and bolting on rappel. Sometimes they place bolts which are accessible from existing, often-climbed routes, and alter their nature. Usually the bolt isn't needed for the historical route, although perhaps convenient.
Ultimately, as you say, we have a limited resource. Strange how climbers in England (and Wales and Scotland) and Scandinavia, have been so aware of that fact, and others not.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 13, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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mungefests???
hrm, MungeFest 2010!!!
yeah, that's the ticket!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Nov 13, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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"Clark opened a damn can of worms."
Sweet baby jeebus weepin' onna kross, I am quite certain that it was I who opened this damned can of worms. As usual, coming to consensus on climbing ethics is proving to be the most unobtainable of all grails, ironically being argued by many who have never climbed the route (or even visited the area) and for what? A silly bolt placed by the FA'ist, a man who virtually all agree has performed more public service to Suicide than any other single person. I am about as traditionalist about preservation of routes as any of you, but this really seems out of balance.
If this 'issue' blows up to the point of resulting in harm to Suicide, or results in acrimonious doodah amongst the local climbing community, or hard feelings towards Clark, I offer my sincerest apologies, and express my greatest regret.
If you have (or haven't) climbed Surprise or C Chowder, try it again, and then let's try to continue this dialogue. In the meantime, let's maintain perspective on this, eh, folks?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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weschrist,
> Your argument appears to be that, since the community has accepted the route(s) in its original form by logging numerous ascents, it should not be changed by anyone, including the FAist.
Yes.
> The FAist dominion over the route has effectively expired and the community now has the right to determine the nature of the route.
No. The community doesn't get to change it, either. It is preserved, as is.
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Murf
climber
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Nov 14, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Let's not forget that there is more than one person on the FA. In these cases shouldn't the rest of the FA team get some consideration? I also noticed Clark is listed last. Sometimes that means a guy caught a rope end to the top (I'm not saying that was the case here).
Unfortunately, my understanding is that Clark has added a bolt to at least one other route than has since been removed. Sometimes a local just gets itching to use the drill and runs out of 1/4 inchers to replace, you know?
As one of my friends puts it, "We thought we were keeping off the rif-raf, but they we turned into the rif-raf."
Clark is the nicest of people, and his climbing ability has never been the question. He has gone out of his way many, many times to help others, both clueless and not so clueless. None of that has any bearing on this subject.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 14, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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"The community doesn't get to change it, either. It is preserved, as is."
Amen brother.
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The_Kid
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
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Nov 14, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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as far as i gathered from talking to him he wanted to make the climb more accessible to climbers to reduce the danger so more people would do the route isn't that the point for us as a community to be inclusive instead of exclusive, the pitch is still runout and if you don't like the bolt don't clip it but removing it would cause more damage than good, he basically said if someone wants to remove it its their energy not his, he has better things to worry about. but i would be sad to see it go just because you can do the route without it he has placed many bolts on climbs after the FA and no one seems to be complaining about them.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Those bolts will probably not be there after this weekend. The FA team does not "own" a route. I know Clark quite well and will discuss this with him but he does not have the last word. Suicide routes will not get "dumbed" down or "safer" by adding bolts while I'm still breathing.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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I never thought the first pitch was a big deal. For me the "surprise" was climbing up and right on the rail then seeing a bolt 15 feet above the rail. I dug the pine needles out of the piton scars placed 2 pieces equalized and climbed the shiny crystal dike found it to be SPICY for 5.8 the whole second pitch was a SURPRISE! I guess that is why we climb (at least it's why I climb for the spice and the adventure!).
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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For the record, the name Suprise came about when Callis wandered up there, expecting to see a blank slab, only to reach up and grab a jug. Surprise.
I have to agree with everyone in favor of chopping the new bolts. The climb has been done safely thousands of times. The only hard part of the pitch (if you can even call it that) is low to the ground, where you can get a stopper in. After that, it's all of, what, 5.4 to the belay. It requires such a basic level of competence that extra bolts really aren't needed, at least if you have any business on the route. Rather than dumbing down routes, we should strive to build technique so we can climb a given route safely. There are routes on Suicide I'll never do because of the runouts, protection, etc., and I'm OK with that.
What's next? Putting extra bolts on Mickey Mantle? It's only 5.8 and we don't want noobs getting hurt on that either, right?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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We had a big to do here about a 5.2 slab with no pro. You could walk up it with your hands in your pockets, but that was kind of dicey.
Eventually it was decided no bolt, but slabs are notorious for runouts and it is too bad that today's climbers don't do them. So we all agreed on retrobolting a few, and they are insanely popular.
So if you sit down and be logical a certain amount of retrobolting can be agreed upon. With the FA's permission of course, which was no big deal.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Those bolts will probably not be there after this weekend. The FA team does not "own" a route. I know Clark quite well and will discuss this with him but he does not have the last word. Suicide routes will not get "dumbed" down or "safer" by adding bolts while I'm still breathing.
I think sometimes people see too many issues as black and white. Clark replaces and adjusts a few routes for the betterment of the community - Sword of Damoclese and The Flakes are great examples.
Sometimes these issues are less about the reality of the offense and more about the principle. If you don't climb there regularly, I don't think you have much say. Clark is one of the few, if not the most active, local climber. Has been for a long time. I know a lot of locals who live there, who don't get out too much anymore - that's all good, life has it's changes. I just think it is odd where the pitchforks get got.
There is no slippery slope - deal with each issue. if he asked me in the shop how I felt, I would have agreed (along with Lucas, AKA "the_kid"). Nobody owns Suicide - Clark would be the first to say so. If you add a bolt on Valhalla, that will be a problem.
Again, look at the route and the action, not extrapolate it to El Cap... my .02$. what do I know though, lol
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Epic E
Big Wall climber
CA
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I put the bolt on surprise and if it gets chopped im going to chisel steps into it.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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I am as local as it gets and have been replacing many of the old 1/4" bolts that Clark missed. I actually just replaced one of the last ones on the top pitch of Clam Chowder two months ago. It was the first piece of pro 25' above the last belay anchor protecting the opening moves to get into the crack. As far as the two added bolts on the first pitch: it is unprotected 5.7 for the first 20 feet or so then gets noticably easier for another 10' where the first bolt is. The second bolt (somewhat shared with Suprise) is another 25' up after very easy climbing, that just gets easier the closer you get to the belay. As said, done hundreds or thousands of times. Someone recently told me the same thing about Mickey Mantle stated earlier. They said ground fall potential getting to the second bolt (which may be true with an unattentive belayer). Know your abilities and be able to down climb if you get in over your head and be an attentive belayer (you may need to take a couple steps back to take in some slack). That is what is going on up there and if you don't like it, stay in the gym or go to a "sport" area. Suicide will not be turned into this.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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"In Germany, they first came for the communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the homosexuals, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a homosexual.
Then they came for the catholics, and I didn't speak up
because I was a protestant.
Then they came for me --
but by that time there was no one left to speak up."
--Pastor Martin Neimoller
I am speaking up now before any more "retro" bolting is done up at Suicide to make the routes "safer". There seems to be some talk of this. There is no discussion here. Come talk to me personally any weekend up there.
John Weinberg
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I think it is important to avoid the US vs THEM discussion, because it has more to do with establishing ourselves than coming together whatsoever as a community.
I understand you feel the way about stopping it before it gets rampant.
No one is saying to turn Suicide into a sport climbing location. This one bolt could be useful, could be a bad idea. But Suicide (not tahquitz) is museum climbing, it will never be popular with the gym crowd. No one can put in enough bolts to turn it into a Holcomb.
There is a thing called "logical fallacies," like the hell-in-a-handbasket idea, which are usually thrown out too often. Super useful conversation some times, but again, I'm not saying the WHOLE weeping wall. I'm talking about one route, climbed mostly because it is the easiest thing there. I know a lot of gym climbers who frequently climb the hardest things out there. I love adventure, I love excitement, I love runout routes that challenge me and that I can look up to.
I know the arguments about bolts gets.... annoying. People will punch eachother out, end freindships, cause HUGE rifts in the community.
It's great to have guys like John and Apogee - people who can keep us centered and remind us where we came from. Absolutely I appreciate your insights, and I think collectively we have to balance history and adventure with convenience. As a climber who frequents these areas, who drives on a paved road past huge pieces of infrastructure and giant blotches of chalk, I just don't see how one bolt on a 5.7 that is pretty popular solely for its difficulty will make a difference. People aren't there for adventure, they are setting topropes up for their buddies or dragging up their mom (me!).
In the end, really, I think you are absolutely in the right in pulling it, because I think returning to roots is always a good idea. My feelings are more centered around the other stuff - read these comments and really understand that we are talking about perhaps 3 ounces of Stainless in a rock. Not ones to come, but this one instance. Seems a bit silly how worked up we get, and how much of a sh#t we can seem to give about it.
Not valhalla. Not Rebolting. Sh#t, not even a route like The Hernia. This is generally considered THE EASIEST bolted route at Suicide. Weird to get overly precious about it.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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John
You used a quote created to describe the murdering of millions of Jews for placing a bolt on a 5.7 slab.
I'm gonna let that sink in for a minute ;D
I put the bolt on surprise and if it gets chopped im going to chisel steps into it.
FINALLY someone gets it!
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