A 'Surprise' bolt!

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apogee

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 10, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
So I was out at Suicide today, introducing the spicy fun of Suicide Slab routes to a good buddy of mine, and we decided to run up 'Surprise'. After describing the classic runout first pitch (a piece or two, a couple of 5.7 moves then ~50' of unprotected easy fifth class to the anchors), I launched off. Having done this route countless times over the last couple of decades, much to my surprise I found a nice, shiny, beefy bolt about 20' below the P1 anchors. WTF?!

Anybody know anything about this? I was last on Surprise about a year ago, and there was no bolt- this thing must have gone sometime this past season. I'm curious as to the rationale, as it is not in character with the historic 'feel' of the route, and wonder if the FA's (P. Callis, L. Reynolds) are aware of it, and what they think about it.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 10, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
Its so chopped! I will get on it ASAP.

On Surprise you place a manky cam and then gun it to the Belay.

So what if people have died and been seriously injured.


Juan
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
Lame! It's probably already gone.

Have people gotten hurt on Surprise?
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
"It's probably already gone."

Not unless Juan has been there in the last 3 hours.

Cool your tuning fork, JDF- I'm pretty surprised by it, too, but let's see if anyone can provide insight to this before reacting. Then go chop that mofo.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
The lack of Pro on the first pitch is what makes Surprise - Well Surprise.

locker

Social climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
"Its so chopped! I will get on it ASAP."...




While you're at it...

Can you "CHOP" the THIRD (3rd) one some idiot added to "Double Cross"???...

The TWO (2) I put in last week "SHUD" be enough...
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
Double Cross is a totally different argument - The Bodies were piling up like fing Cordwood. The NPS demanded I place the bolts. They have saved lives.

Juan "Mr. T" De Fuca
Shano

Trad climber
921OB
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
some friends and I did Samson for a warm-down a month or so back and noticed that the pitons on the 2nd pitch were all gone. Sounds like Sui is getting some makeovers!
Pie

Trad climber
So-Cal
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
I climbed surprise in the beginning of october, only pro on P1 was a cam in the flake before setting out onto the large dishes and scoops. No bolt then.

Pie
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
I climbed it a few months ago, maybe August or September, not really sure. But there was no bolt then. So it hasn't been there for long.

Andy
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
The funny thing is that the bolt is on that 'good' ledge about 20' below the anchors- by the time you've made it that far, the last couple of moves are no big whoop. Just seems silly.
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
Are you sure you were on Surprise?.....I heard of a new route reciently put up between Duck Soup, and Continuation.....so maybe you were a wee bit to the left of Surprise?.....This new route (not mine, by the way...) was put up a few weeks ago , on the lead , hand drilled, by long time locals...........something to look into.....
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
Yes, Todd, quite sure. Been there, done that uncountable times over the years.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
I climbed at Suicide this season and thought many routes were a bit too sporty. I have thoughtfully placed bolts on these so called classics to make them modern day classics. Please dont chop my bolts JDF, Suicide has some great sport climbing potential that must be explored. Peace!
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
Batrock, have you consulted with the first ascensionists before doing any of these retro-fits?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
I'm sure that if Batrock had actually done anything of the sort, we'd long since have heard about it ad nauseam.
msiddens

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
Batrock AKA Trollman
Sewellymon

climber
.....in a single wide......
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
how many Weeping Wall squeeze jobs have been put up and chopped? i seem to recall on ST somebody mentioning they started chopping bolts while the FA party was finishing up on pitch 3. i also remember the "Korean Route". Might have been between Serpentine and 10 Caret? DEE went up the next day to climb, the chop...
wildone

climber
GHOST TOWN
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
Choppin' broccolli!!!!
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
Batrock,

Cool if it was your bolt. I will let it stand. What do you think of adding some bolts to Flower of High Rank to protect the crack below the tree?

Peace

Juan
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Nov 10, 2009 - 04:58pm PT
Apogee,

Just funnin around, I climbed at Suicide once in the last 10 years but many times in the early 80's and would never think of messin with history. I have placed hundereds of bolts in my time but none at Suicide.

Just tryin to lighten the mood during a crappy day.
squatch

Boulder climber
santa cruz, CA
Nov 10, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
from the title i swore you were talking about the completely unnecessary bolt halfway up the money pitch on the Surprise at the five open books in the valley.
what's up with that thing anyways? it's 1 foot away from a perfectly proable crack and not even near a belay.
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 10, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
I'm also curious to hear how that bolt came to be there. I saw it while doing Revelation just a couple of weeks ago. We were quite shocked. (and yes Gordo, it is on Surprise, exactly as described) It had been so long since I did a Weeping Wall route that I had no point of reference for how long it had been there. Sounds like it's very recent.

Not good.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Nov 10, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
I'm going to be at a board meeting with Pat Callis in a week and a half--should I ask him?

I doubt he cares one way or another, and maybe doesn't even remember the climb, but I'll see what he has to say...
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
I would be interested to hear what Pat has to say, though I'm concerned that the person who did this might use his indifference as rationale for their action.

It would be useful to know who did it, or at least why- perhaps keeping this thread prominent will bring some info forward. If anyone here frequents Mtn Project or RC.noob, more insight might be had that way, too.

Before letting the issue explode into a negative ethics spray-a-thon, a few facts would be helpful.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Nov 10, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
I was gonna say Seasons End needs some bolts but since sarcasm doesnt transfer well on the interweb I'll keep my trap shut.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Nov 10, 2009 - 06:53pm PT
Is Suicide so quiet these days that this kind of crap could go so unnoticed? I guess it could have happened at anytime though.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 10, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
Call it what it is,


an act of vapid vandalism.
Lost Arrow

Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
Nov 10, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
In all seriousness if not me someone needs to get up there with a crowbar.

Juan
microcam

Trad climber
San Juan Capistrano. California
Nov 10, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
My old school climbing partner who taught me to climb about 11 years ago told me never to do three things: 1) Never let go of the brake hand 2) Never chip holds 3} and never add a bolt to an existing route in honor of the individual(s) who put up the route. Do your homework fellas? The slab pitch ends up at the anchors for Surprise and Clam Chowder. We know how Surprise got its name and who put it up. Who in the world would be right in adding bolts to his existing route! Think fellas! And quit bitchin' about something until you find out the truth!
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Nov 10, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
I agree with Juan (that's a fuucking first)

chop chop.








BOOOTY!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Nov 11, 2009 - 05:27am PT
Someone farted in church. The acolytes are outraged!

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 07:08am PT
Apogee,

I'm surprised at your outrage?

It's the perfect liberal bolt!
























It gives the masses a false sense of security,

and


eliminates the need for self responsibility.
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 08:29am PT
TGT-

Believe it or not, we probably share similar views on preserving the legacy of classic routes. Incredible, huh? A progressive with a strong appreciation for history. Whodathunkit?
locker

Social climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Nov 11, 2009 - 08:58am PT
all I'm saying is that IF you "WUD" gridbolt ALL routes...

Well...

that "WUD" be GREAT!!!...

I'd like them PLACED about 5 inches apart...

especially on the HARD...

5.0's...


THANKS!!!...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:47am PT
Did you happen to notice if it was a 5 piece or a wedge (stud)style?


Someone farted in church. The acolytes are outraged!

More like left a coiler on the front pew!
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 09:49am PT
No, I didn't look too closely- it was definitely a 3/8" cap bolt, with a large SS hanger. It appeared properly installed, but in a silly location.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Why'djya leave the ketchup on the table?
Nov 11, 2009 - 09:55am PT
At the ole Brown Steamer is it?

Chop it then! and say reverent things as you do!

DMT
Mojomonkey

climber
Philadelphia, PA
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:03am PT
So.... did you clip it?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:13am PT
I'm off until Monday. Who's got the tuning fork and crowbar?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:18am PT
Sunday?

What time?

I'll bring tools and Epoxy for the hole patch.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:22am PT
Use instacrete (concrete repair epoxy putty.)

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:38am PT
That's exactly what I had in mind.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Redlands
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:53am PT
Anyone ask Gaines or Clark what's going on up there?
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 11:08am PT
Good question. I'll check with Bob (if he hasn't already seen this thread).
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 11, 2009 - 11:29am PT
It's been almost 30 years since I last did Surprise (or, for that matter, anything else on the Weeping Wall). Even in those pre-historic days, every time I was there, there were others on the Wall, so it amazes me that someone could drill a bolt there and no one else knows the story -- or that the bolt is still in.

Have people stopped climbing at Suicide?

John
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 11:36am PT
Suicide is as busy as ever- probably much moreso than the last time you were there, John. During the May-Sept season, esp. on weekends, the parking lots are full, and the crag is full of people. It still amuses me how many n00bs will go to Suicide because they heard it is bolted, and therefore assume it is a 'sportclimbing' area. Boy, are they in for a 'surprise'!
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 11, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
I have done the route about 10 times over the years. Never needed the bolt or wish I had one. Someone better check out 10 Carot.

Juan
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
Here's Bob's response (hope he doesn't mind me passing it along):

"Don't know anything about it, but I'm guessing it won't last long. Retro
bolting runnout routes is like opening pandora's box- plenty of climbers would
like to add a bolt to this route or that route. It's a slippery slope.

The rule was always this: you can only add a bolt to an existing route if
you got permssion from the first ascent party, but even then it may get
chopped.

Todd Gordon asked me if he could add acouple of bolts to an old R rated
route of mine at Joshua Tree, and I said OK. The bolts were chopped soon after."
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 11, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
Apogee!

Whats the world coming to?

Surprise?

The only thing I am surprised about is that you didn't immediately chop it
and ask questions later if need be.

BITD everyone use to do 'Surprise' in Robbins before EB's.
Let them get away with that and Suicide is History.

It's the first pitch, they could of down climbed or just not did it.
Disgusting.

I haven't read any of the other post's, this just caught my attention, so I am probably just repeating everyone else.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 11, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
TGT- "more like left a coiler on the front pew"

Soooooooooooooo...HALARIOS!!

That is gonna keep me rolling all week.
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:20pm PT
Okay - something a little more concrete.

The bolt in question is not on Surprise but is instead on Clam Chowder. It is one of two bolts that were added to the first pitch of Clam Chowder about a month ago, and was put in by Clark Jacobs who was a member of the FA party (Clark Jacobs, Jay Smith, Jim Wood - 1973). After putting up the route they agreed bolts in the first pitch would have been good, and that eventually one of them could/would come back and do it at a later date.

Clark obviously finally got around to doing just that.

The first pitch of Clam Chowder starts approximately 20' left of Surprise and for the most part is completely independent (possibly joining for the last bit, depending on your line).

Another bit of info - Clark knows Larry Reynolds and talked to him about the runout nature of the first pitch of Surprise (Callis & Reynolds, FA). As it turns out, they didn't run the first pitch, but instead placed a few tied off knife blades in some of the horizontal seams in the upper part of the pitch (sorry to blow any buzzes but the FA didn't just go for it.) The scars from those pins can still be found in the area if closely looked for.

Clark was very up front when asked what he knew, giving the facts and his rationale. I decided to pass on the information for other people to consider.

The two new bolts on Clam Chowder were put in by a member of the FA party. So it would seem to merit consideration.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:43pm PT
Thanks for the info.

My weekend is saved now.



bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
ever wish you could just freeze-frame the climbing world at a favorite point in time? that'd be 1977 - 1978 for me.

*heavy sigh*

the world keeps turning, even though sometimes i wish i could get off.
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
Assuming we are speaking of the same bolt (which is likely), the new bolt I spotted is located on the 'good' ledge just below the anchors- you can see the ledge designated here on the topo:

Tahquitz-Suicide guidebook, Vogel/Gaines 1993
Tahquitz-Suicide guidebook, Vogel/Gaines 1993
Credit: apogee

This ledge is located almost directly in line b/w the top of the flake/crack and the anchors- when traversing leftwards towards the anchor, it is the logical & typical ledge to move to. I will certainly defer to Clark's judgement as the first ascensionist (and a friend), but in effect, the new bolt also protects Surprise, though in an odd location, since by the time you've reached that ledge (from Surprise or Clam Chowder), the last moves are inconsequential.

Nonetheless, this is helpful information, and good to know that it is unlikely that some yahoo has been up there retro-fitting of late. TGT, Juan...you might want to change your bolt-chopping plans for this weekend...
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 12, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
bvb!

May you be the one and same as bob van bell? Woodson @ 86-90?

Just curious have a question if answer be yes.

I'll just ask the Q= do know Jonathon S? and have U talked to him lately?

You wouldn't remember me. I think it was only once or twice that we met, Jonathon was there. Nothing to be particularly memorable about in regards to 'me'.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago'
Nov 12, 2009 - 02:48pm PT
TGT- "my weekend is saved".

Well, at least we won't need to be concerned about mad-bolters.

Guess the world(at least the Mts)ain't such a bad place after all.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 12, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
TripL7 --

yep, that'd be me. What was Jonathon S.'s full name? PM it too me, that might jog my memory. Lost a lot of brain cells since the 80's...!
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 12, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
apogee - I also have to believe we're talking about the same bolt.

It is quite unfortunate that the new bolt can also be used when doing Surprise. However, given what really happened on the FA with the pins I guess the nature of the pitch hasn't entirely changed between what they (FA) experienced and what it would be like with the new bolt. Clark did say you can find one of those old pin scars in the proximate area of the new bolt.



bvb, yeah.



I've done a fair number of routes up there this year. Everything has been in order with regard to bolts, no new lead bolts added to any of the pitches I did (10KG included, per a comment earlier in the thread).

I have a feeling this one will slide because of the FA aspect. There are still watchers at Suicide who have an interest in bolts that are added to existing routes. That's good to see.
microcam

Trad climber
San Juan Capistrano. California
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
As I mentioned on a previous post, we need to do our homework before we start bitchin' about a bolt that has been added to an existing route. I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise). He was involved in putting up that particular route (as well as others at Suicide). Clark is old school and has replaced over 150 bolts on Suicide alone. He has been involved in numerous rescues at Suicide as well as Yosemite. On Saturday he graciously helped out some newbies who ended up having a blast as a result of Clark's help. So maybe next time before some start talking about breaking out the bold cutters and cement, do a little research before you start self righteously spewing about something you don't know anything about.
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:44pm PT
Curious as to what route went up first, Surprise or Clam Chowder...

Looking apogee's topo, it looks like they join together where the bolt is marked...


edit: just read above, 1973 for Clam Chowder...off to look for the FA date on Surprise...but I'm guessing it is earlier as Callis was putting up routes in MT by 73....
F10

Trad climber
e350
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
Surprise went up in 66' way before CC

I remember doing Surprise unroped mid 70's and now I think what the hell was I thinking?
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
I love it. Between here and MP there are 10+ either flat out statements or alluding to "sport climbing / climbers) as the culprit and as it turns out it was the FAist.

Too f*#kin funny. /Cheers DMT for farting church, perfectly analogy.

I felt like making a new post. "SURPRISE" Cal Trans put a new lane on the (80). WTF I drove that freeway back when it was 2 lanes! How many 5 line Freeways do we really need. Damn sport pavers.....
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
"...we need to do our homework before we start bitchin' about a bolt that has been added to an existing route."

Agreed. Which is why I suggested, early in this thread, "let's see if anyone can provide insight to this before reacting." Unfortunately, people seem to prefer drama to rationality, and there have been quite a few immediate reactions and assumptions that there was evil-doing at work. (It's also amusing how many of those comments are made by people who probably have never climbed at T&S, and therefore have little familiarity with the local history & ethics.)

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise)."

I have great deference to Clark in his judgement on bolting- as you state, he has done a terrific service to T&S over the years, not to mention innumerable climbers he has guided. That said, the new bolt does protect Surprise to a (very) limited degree, however unintended. I have done Surprise countless times, and that bolt is smack-dab in the midst of the traverse towards the anchors.

All of this seems to be generating 'much ado about nothing', now that it is understood that Clark has placed the bolt. I vote to let it rest, thank Clark for his continued commitment and effort, and go climbing.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
this is exactly what we should be doing - having an open discussion among peers and FA'ists to see what should be done. Good post Apogee!
eliot carlsen

Social climber
San Diego
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
I would agree with the "thanking Clark" bit. That guy needs an appreciation thread of his own.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:38pm PT
on another note: same old roughster.
BG

Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
I agree with Apogee. The first ascent party decides. The only problem is someone might not know that a member of the FA party did the retro job, and it gets chopped anyway!

More than anyone else, Clark has taken the time and effort to replace hundreds of bolts at Suicide Rock (nearly every bolt on the entire Weeping Wall) and he should be commended for his efforts. He has made Idyllwild a safer place to climb, and the character of the runnout face climbing has not been altered over the last 30 years I've climbed there. A couple of bolts really won't make a difference.

It's heartening, as Darrell mentioned, that there are still people concerned enough about preserving history, and willing to chop added bolts, to maintain the tradition and ethic of the first ascent. I'd hate to see retro bolting get out of control, and I trust that it won't happen here, at least in my lifetime.
Lost Arrow

Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:46pm PT
It is so chopped!
The_Kid

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
guys clark jacobs put some bolts in for clam chowder (meets up with surprise) he was part of the first ascent party for that route so that may be the bolt you saw and since he has replaced the majority of the old bolts he should be able to put bolts in any route he wants especially one he FA. and no one should be adding or removing bolts without consulting the Locals first (clark, kelly, etc).
The_Kid

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
guess im late you guys already talked to clark
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 09:48pm PT
Duke- your confirmation of the placement was appreciated, and not superfluous. Just so you know.

It must have been a chilly Surprise today!
Duke

Social climber
PSP
Nov 12, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
Was very comfortable until late afternoon.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
It sounds like Clark means well, but since The Suprise was done before Clam Chowder and the bolt is on the original line of Clam Chowder, if we believe the "FA principle" is a good rule, he would need to ask permission of Pat Callis and Larry Reynolds to add a bolt there. [Edit to add: maybe he already got it from Reynolds] [Edit to add: This is assuming the routes actually intersect at the top of the pitch as shown in the topo, but Darryl said they can be separate; a topo is not always accurate!]

Secondly, I don't think the "FA principle" should allow the FA people to add/subtract bolts at any arbitrary point in the future. I feel that if a route has gotten a sufficient number of ascents (or been climbed for some number of years), a "statute of limitations" applies, and the route becomes community property. No longer "property" of the FA people. In a sense, it "belongs" to the people who have climbed it in the past and have shared that experience.

I haven't done the climb, but it sounds like an unnecessary bolt, if the climbing is so easy above it. Although it's possible to argue that a great many bolts are "unnecessary". So I wonder what Clark's explanation is for it.

My best guess is that the bolt is a replacement for the tied off pins which were used by Callis and Reynolds. In my view, this could be a justifiable use of a bolt, since repeated placement of those pins could be fairly ugly/destructive. But it is interesting that it took so long to do this. Maybe the info on the pins was not known until just now, so maybe the bolt there is overdue. On the other hand, no doubt many people did it without protection there over the years. Will the added protection enable more people to do the climb?
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
"On the other hand, no doubt many people did it without protection there over the years. Will the added protection enable more people to do the climb?"

Clint, not trying to instigate anything, but having climbed the route might bring a different perspective. The bolt in question is so far at the end of the P1 of each route, and the terrain afterwards so inconsequential, that it hardly seems significant. Arguably, this might make the addition less necessary (as far as Surprise is concerned), but it does not seem worthy of a great ethics debate. Your suggestion of a 'statute of limitations' is an interesting and worthy consideration, nonetheless.

No, I don't think the bolt will change anyone's decision to climb Surprise- they will still be faced with a very long runout, which is completely within the character of the route. Hell, they probably won't even see the bolt as they launch leftwards from the crack/flake.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 12, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
Thanks for the explanation. So the bolt does not make The Surprise better protected. Does it help protect Clam Chowder? If not, I wonder why he placed it?
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:55am PT
I agree with Clint. If Surprise was done before Clam Chowder than the FA party of Surprise needs to give permission to add a bolt.

I don't think the argument of tied-off pins holds much weight as there is no way to judge how good the pins were. Maybe they were A5 which could never be said for a 3/8" SS bolt.

Bruce
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 07:04am PT
It would be interesting to do Clam Chowder now, and see the bolt from that perspective. If anyone does so anytime soon, please report back...
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 13, 2009 - 07:36am PT
Not a bad idea, maybe someone should do Clam Chowder.

Keep in mind that the routes do NOT need to join at the top of their first pitches. Just because the guide shows it like that doesn't mean it has to be that way. I always used to keep them seperate so I can't say I ever totally agreed with the guide in the first place.

It's very easy up there (vicinity of the top bolt) and it's possible to go just about anywhere, pick your line. You can keep them seperate. Always could, I'm sure you still can.

Because it is possible to keep them seperate the Surprise was first and Clam Chowder second argument may lose a little weight.

Just something more to consider.
snowey

Trad climber
San Diego
Nov 13, 2009 - 07:40am PT
May I recommend that instead of chopping you simply remove the hanger and nut. This makes the "bolt war" much less traumatic to the rock.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 13, 2009 - 07:49am PT
snowey, i think it's already been determined that the bolt will stay. what's being discussed now are the broader ramifications of the bolt's presence on both routes -- surprise and clam chowder.
bwancy1

Trad climber
Here
Nov 13, 2009 - 08:18am PT
I agree with Clint's first post as well.


1-the added bold modifies a separate (earlier) route - the bolt causes collateral damage. In this case the FA-ist has stolen something from MY past...my ascent of Surprise.

and

2-The FA does not "own" a route in perpetuity. Clam Chowder is community property.

As a compromise I say move the bolt lower so that it does not interfere with Surprise. Clam Chowder is second fiddle to Surprise anyway.
guyman

Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 13, 2009 - 08:33am PT
Just leave the dam bolt right where it is.
Clark put it in, anybody else put it in, except for woods or smith and that thing is chopped.....

Good to know the internet works.... we settled this sh#t in a few days.

I guess it's time to air out the church... phew that smells???
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 13, 2009 - 08:49am PT
Psh, snowey just wants to keep the hanger. Cheap bastard!! Go buy yer own!

;D hehe
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 09:24am PT


I plan to chop it.

Juan

The_Kid

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 09:28am PT
you better be joking juan nobody has the right to mess with clarks bolts.
bwancy1

Trad climber
Here
Nov 13, 2009 - 09:45am PT
The guys who complain about retrobolting and desecration of the past by newbies are the same ones who open the door to this behavior by supporting the altering of a 40 year-old route, even if it was by the FA.

bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 09:55am PT
I don't understand why it is OK for the bolt to stay in just because Clark placed it. A history of stewardship does not grant that person the right to add bolts to existing climbs. I am sure everyone appreciates the work Clark has put in, but that does not give him carte blanche to add bolts to routes at Suicide.

I think it is a very good suggestion that if Clark really wants to add bolts to one of his climbs then he should move the bolt to below where it intersects with Surprise. That seems like a very simple solution to the problem.

Bruce

Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 09:57am PT
Or, as Darryl pointed out, the topo could be inaccurate about the routes intersecting [before reaching the belay]. A topo is just one source of info, and sometimes the original line of a climb is not shown correctly on it.

I agree, doing community service doesn't grant rights to retrobolt - otherwise Bruce and I could wreak havoc if we wanted to!! I am sure Clark had some reasons for placing the bolts; I am just curious about what they are.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:03am PT
yeah, all other things being equal, this issue makes for a good discussion topic: given the heavily-bolted nature of the weeping wall, is there any justification for placing any new bolts anywhere on that slab? if ever there was a place where a permanent moratorium on new bolts was appropriate, it's the weeping wall.

i'm not advocating removal of the bolt in question. and having not climbed there for 20 years, i'm inclined to trust clark's judgement. still...every time i did clam chowder, from the mid-70's through the mid-80's, i found the protection to be adequate. indeed, i found the protection to be adequate on every route i ever did at suicide. so...why a new bolt? why there, and why now?

food for thought.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:03am PT
I don't care who placed it. What makes Surprise Surprise is the long runout to the belay.

This is a brand new bolt that destroys a classic climb.

I did clam chowder about 5 times without this new bolt.





Juan
Duke

Social climber
PSP
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:32am PT
henny,

When you climb CC do you not use the anchor at the top of the 1st pitch of Suprise? If not, where do you belay for the 2nd pitch of CC? I climbed it yesterday and am not sure where I would belay for the 2nd pitch of CC if not at the shared anchor.

The bolt didn't make any sense to me for either climb given its proximity to the anchor albiet I have not climbed here nearly as much as you and Clark.
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 13, 2009 - 11:39am PT
Yeah, Clam Chowder and Surprise share the same first belay. The climbing up to the ledge can be done independently but the anchor is the same.

It's a fuzzy mess. There's too many routes too close together on the Weeping Wall. The low angle nature of it allows you to go pretty much anywhere you want at anytime. Throw things in like routes even sharing bolts (Revelation/Serpentine, common anchors of CC/Surprise, etc...) and it gets messy. Add a bolt anywhere on the wall and you're likely to affect something else somehow. I have to agree with bvb, it would be best if there was never another bolt added to the wall, period.

Clark opened a damn can of worms. When I talked to him he mentioned that he didn't have internet acccess so I doubt we'll hear from him in this thread.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
The first ascentionist placed the bolt. No one said you have to clip it, if it "ruins" your climb. If he pulled one of the bolts, I'm sure Juan you would whine about that.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
I have to agree that with the sentiment that the decision to place the bolt was poorly thought out.

One, the bolt affects a neighboring route, The Surprise, that didn't have a bolt on that pitch.

Two, although Clam Chowder and Surprise share that first belay, the decision to place the bolt at that spot for Clam Chowder doesn't really make sense since you're already on the easy stuff on Surprise. It just seems superfluous at that point.

Third, I think Clint's point is valid. The route has been there for so long and has had so many ascents in its original state without anybody seriously getting hurt, there's no need at this point in time to retrobolt it, even if the FA party is doing the bolting. Not that this logic applies to Clark (who I've seen soloing routes on the Weeping Wall), but if I put up a route long ago and am now too much of a wuss to climb it, that doesn't give me the right to go and retrobolt it so my wussy ass can now climb it. That's just a bad precedent.
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Nov 13, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
The FA does not "own" a route in perpetuity. Clam Chowder is community property.



You guys f*#king crack me up! If the FAist doesn't "own" the route and it is community property, let the COMMUNITY decide. The COMMUNITY is not solely comprised of old curmudgeons who long for the days when they actually climbed, as much as Juan and the other douche bags on here wish it did.

You are free to climb past it and not clip... I've accidentally done that on a few routes in Toolallame, didn't bother me a bit to find out they had been there all along.
The_Kid

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 01:00pm PT
remember guy clark is the most local of climbers in Idyllwild and he is an elite climber and the rules of rock climbing are simple but i think the number one rule of all is don't piss off the locals so please don't piss off the locals it could cause some serious consequences in the future.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 13, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
who you calling and old curmudgeon wes you young whippersnapper you!
henny

Social climber
The Past
Nov 13, 2009 - 01:15pm PT
Read the guidebook scan of Surprise completely from the top of the page. Although you don't see the route name, the first paragraph on the page is Clam Chowder, and it references Surprise. Note also the reference to Clam Chowder's belay bolt in Surprise. Those routes have been forever linked with bolt confusion/sharing. Nothing new. Same old same old.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
It really does not matter to me who placed the bolt (or even why). After this many decades and literally tens of thousands of ascents, it clearly does not belong there.

This is not a route that was recently put up and the FA team is now tweaking the protection. It is not a route that remains rarely climbed due to death defying run outs.

If Clark or anyone else on the FA wanted to "fix" the route, they have waited far too long to do so and have no more moral authority to add a bolt than anyone else. It is salient to observe that Clark has lived (and climbed) in Idyllwild almost continuously since the route was established. Why wait til now? What is the sudden need to fix a problem that does not exist?

Sorry, but that bolt should be removed. Carefully and quickly.
weschrist

Gym climber
left sac
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
sketchy,

Your argument appears to be that, since the community has accepted the route(s) in its original form by logging numerous ascents, it should not be changed by anyone, including the FAist. The FAist dominion over the route has effectively expired and the community now has the right to determine the nature of the route.

We can extend that same logic to crags. One could argue that a crag which has been accepted by the community belongs to the community and the community has the right to determine the nature of that crag. All rarely repeated, poorly bolted '70's POS mungefests should fit the needs and desires of the community.

Either the community decides or the FAist decides, you can't have it both ways.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
Wes - I really don't think these things need to be viewed in such black and white terms...

It's not that simple - either / or...

Personally I wish Clark had not placed this bolt, but I wouldn't chop it out of deference to Clark. I really like and admire Clark and he has been a great contributor to the climbing scene in Idyllwild.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
Wes. You propose a false choice and one not suggested by what I posted; a classic logical fallacy.

It is a well recognized principal that an inexcusable delay in exercising a right leads to forfeiting that right. That is the situation presented here.

Clark has had ample opportunity to exercise his FA prerogative and perhaps add a bolt. There has been nothing to restrict his ability to add this bolt -- He lives in Idllywild and in fact climbs at the crags very often (and has bolted many other routes and anchors over the last 30 years). I'm sure he has done Clam Chowder and Surprise hundreds of times.

There is as little reason to add a bolt to Surprise/Clam Chowder as there would be to add a bolt to... Double Cross. And even if Woody were still with us, I doubt even he would be recognized as having any right to place a bolt where so many have trod for so long.

And, yes Kris, I admire and like Clark very much. This is not anything personal about Clark. In fact, I propose that Clark remove the bolt.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:49pm PT
I'm with Kris on this one. Normally, I would say get rid of the bolt. I first led the Surprise in Robbins boots, Stoppers and first-generation Hexcentrics (the kind that were symmetric about the vertical axis). So what? When I first did the climb, it wasn't as an act of death defiance. I'd been told that most of the route was easy, and all of it enjoyable. What I saw confirmed that, and I therefore was comfortable running it out.

My original post on this thread marveled that a new bolt could be placed on Suprise and no one know the story or do anything about it. Now that I know both the story and who placed it, I would defer to his judgment.

I can't make this a hard-and-fast rule, of course, because I don't have the same knowledge of, and therefore the same respect for, the judgment of all climbers.

John
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
A discussion which I'm following with interest, in part because I'm working to restore Slab Alley, the first route climbed on the Apron at Squamish, in 1961. It's become disused. http://www.squamishclimbing.com/squamish_climbing_bb/viewtopic.php?t=2522

Both of those who did the FA are dead. For now, all I'm doing is cleaning the route, and I'll replace the existing bolts in the spring. There are some larger questions regarding what to do about two bolts that were added in 1974 to protect a traverse (to deter piton use) - one at least may still make sense. Also about whether it would be appropriate to do anything about some long, moderate slab runouts in the upper section, and possibly some minor re-routing. There has been some healthy discussion - these things should not be done hastily.

Once the preliminary work is done, I'm planning to do Slab Alley with a variety of climbers, and ask others to do it, to determine what if any consensus there is. If there is no consensus, then I'll leave the route as it was - cleaner, new bolts exactly where the old ones were, no more.

There has been an awkward history at Squamish of a few who clean up old routes, add bolts, and purport to re-name them.

And then there's Werner's thread about museum climbs, at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=447487 Or was it about museum climbers?
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
Daddy is off to fight a Bolt War. Robbins and Warren would be proud.

Why add bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder? Thats insane.

Juan
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Latitute 33
Nov 13, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
Anders, it is nice to see that some climbers give thought and care into what is really a limited resource.

But, as you probably divined, neither Clam Chowder or Surprise are "museum" climbs. Rather, they (particularly Surprise) log hundreds of ascents each season. No one really seems to be arguing that the bolt in question is necessary or even adds to the "safety" of the climb.

Frankly, I'm still scratching my head over this one.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 13, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
I was going to use a simple example.

If someone painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa everyone would call it vandalism. No question.

If Leonardo had done it, most of us would think it ridiculous, but not question his right to do it.

Now, it turns out that she originally had eyebrows, pink skin and the painting is now nothing like the original.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/6555592/Mona-Lisa-had-eyebrows.html

Would it be recognized if restored?

Nothings all that simple.

And, no, neither climb is a masterpiece although Surprise does have historic significance.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
Nov 13, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
Yes, we get it in another context, where people put in 'squeeze' routes, particularly on the Apron, usually cleaning and bolting on rappel. Sometimes they place bolts which are accessible from existing, often-climbed routes, and alter their nature. Usually the bolt isn't needed for the historical route, although perhaps convenient.

Ultimately, as you say, we have a limited resource. Strange how climbers in England (and Wales and Scotland) and Scandinavia, have been so aware of that fact, and others not.
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Nov 13, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
mungefests???



hrm, MungeFest 2010!!!

yeah, that's the ticket!
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
Nov 13, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
apogee

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
"Clark opened a damn can of worms."

Sweet baby jeebus weepin' onna kross, I am quite certain that it was I who opened this damned can of worms. As usual, coming to consensus on climbing ethics is proving to be the most unobtainable of all grails, ironically being argued by many who have never climbed the route (or even visited the area) and for what? A silly bolt placed by the FA'ist, a man who virtually all agree has performed more public service to Suicide than any other single person. I am about as traditionalist about preservation of routes as any of you, but this really seems out of balance.

If this 'issue' blows up to the point of resulting in harm to Suicide, or results in acrimonious doodah amongst the local climbing community, or hard feelings towards Clark, I offer my sincerest apologies, and express my greatest regret.

If you have (or haven't) climbed Surprise or C Chowder, try it again, and then let's try to continue this dialogue. In the meantime, let's maintain perspective on this, eh, folks?
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
weschrist,

> Your argument appears to be that, since the community has accepted the route(s) in its original form by logging numerous ascents, it should not be changed by anyone, including the FAist.

Yes.

> The FAist dominion over the route has effectively expired and the community now has the right to determine the nature of the route.

No. The community doesn't get to change it, either. It is preserved, as is.
Murf

climber
Nov 13, 2009 - 10:56pm PT

Let's not forget that there is more than one person on the FA. In these cases shouldn't the rest of the FA team get some consideration? I also noticed Clark is listed last. Sometimes that means a guy caught a rope end to the top (I'm not saying that was the case here).

Unfortunately, my understanding is that Clark has added a bolt to at least one other route than has since been removed. Sometimes a local just gets itching to use the drill and runs out of 1/4 inchers to replace, you know?

As one of my friends puts it, "We thought we were keeping off the rif-raf, but they we turned into the rif-raf."

Clark is the nicest of people, and his climbing ability has never been the question. He has gone out of his way many, many times to help others, both clueless and not so clueless. None of that has any bearing on this subject.


cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Nov 13, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
"The community doesn't get to change it, either. It is preserved, as is."

Amen brother.


The_Kid

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Nov 13, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
as far as i gathered from talking to him he wanted to make the climb more accessible to climbers to reduce the danger so more people would do the route isn't that the point for us as a community to be inclusive instead of exclusive, the pitch is still runout and if you don't like the bolt don't clip it but removing it would cause more damage than good, he basically said if someone wants to remove it its their energy not his, he has better things to worry about. but i would be sad to see it go just because you can do the route without it he has placed many bolts on climbs after the FA and no one seems to be complaining about them.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Nov 13, 2009 - 11:49pm PT
It really does not matter to me who placed the bolt (or even why). After this many decades and literally tens of thousands of ascents, it clearly does not belong there.

This is not a route that was recently put up and the FA team is now tweaking the protection. It is not a route that remains rarely climbed due to death defying run outs.

If Clark or anyone else on the FA wanted to "fix" the route, they have waited far too long to do so and have no more moral authority to add a bolt than anyone else. It is salient to observe that Clark has lived (and climbed) in Idyllwild almost continuously since the route was established. Why wait til now? What is the sudden need to fix a problem that does not exist?

Sorry, but that bolt should be removed. Carefully and quickly.

It would be rather ironic if the community rallied to remove the retro-bolt placed by the FA... Has such a thing happened before (on an otherwise accepted route)?
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Those bolts will probably not be there after this weekend. The FA team does not "own" a route. I know Clark quite well and will discuss this with him but he does not have the last word. Suicide routes will not get "dumbed" down or "safer" by adding bolts while I'm still breathing.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
-

the bolts (there are two newish ones on the first pitch of Surprise/Clam Chowder) were surely added to prevent ground falls; Surprise must appeal to many who are new to leading moderate trad.

I'm sure Jacobs was aware of epics on this first pitch; I recall a few decades ago a tale about a guy fatally decking right there.


Noobs should not be leading that pitch, sans bolts, imo


-
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
I never thought the first pitch was a big deal. For me the "surprise" was climbing up and right on the rail then seeing a bolt 15 feet above the rail. I dug the pine needles out of the piton scars placed 2 pieces equalized and climbed the shiny crystal dike found it to be SPICY for 5.8 the whole second pitch was a SURPRISE! I guess that is why we climb (at least it's why I climb for the spice and the adventure!).
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
For the record, the name Suprise came about when Callis wandered up there, expecting to see a blank slab, only to reach up and grab a jug. Surprise.

I have to agree with everyone in favor of chopping the new bolts. The climb has been done safely thousands of times. The only hard part of the pitch (if you can even call it that) is low to the ground, where you can get a stopper in. After that, it's all of, what, 5.4 to the belay. It requires such a basic level of competence that extra bolts really aren't needed, at least if you have any business on the route. Rather than dumbing down routes, we should strive to build technique so we can climb a given route safely. There are routes on Suicide I'll never do because of the runouts, protection, etc., and I'm OK with that.

What's next? Putting extra bolts on Mickey Mantle? It's only 5.8 and we don't want noobs getting hurt on that either, right?
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
-

yeah, those bolts are gonna get chopped, as they probably should be


did Jacobs (or whoever the retro-bolter was) offer a specific reason for adding them?


(likely they carried some climbers down in the Stokes litter, I'm guessing, but I'm sure the guide/topo indicates "70ft runout, easy fifth-class")


-
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
We had a big to do here about a 5.2 slab with no pro. You could walk up it with your hands in your pockets, but that was kind of dicey.

Eventually it was decided no bolt, but slabs are notorious for runouts and it is too bad that today's climbers don't do them. So we all agreed on retrobolting a few, and they are insanely popular.

So if you sit down and be logical a certain amount of retrobolting can be agreed upon. With the FA's permission of course, which was no big deal.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

Those bolts will probably not be there after this weekend. The FA team does not "own" a route. I know Clark quite well and will discuss this with him but he does not have the last word. Suicide routes will not get "dumbed" down or "safer" by adding bolts while I'm still breathing.

I think sometimes people see too many issues as black and white. Clark replaces and adjusts a few routes for the betterment of the community - Sword of Damoclese and The Flakes are great examples.

Sometimes these issues are less about the reality of the offense and more about the principle. If you don't climb there regularly, I don't think you have much say. Clark is one of the few, if not the most active, local climber. Has been for a long time. I know a lot of locals who live there, who don't get out too much anymore - that's all good, life has it's changes. I just think it is odd where the pitchforks get got.


There is no slippery slope - deal with each issue. if he asked me in the shop how I felt, I would have agreed (along with Lucas, AKA "the_kid"). Nobody owns Suicide - Clark would be the first to say so. If you add a bolt on Valhalla, that will be a problem.

Again, look at the route and the action, not extrapolate it to El Cap... my .02$. what do I know though, lol
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Oct 3, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
I put the bolt on surprise and if it gets chopped im going to chisel steps into it.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 3, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
I am as local as it gets and have been replacing many of the old 1/4" bolts that Clark missed. I actually just replaced one of the last ones on the top pitch of Clam Chowder two months ago. It was the first piece of pro 25' above the last belay anchor protecting the opening moves to get into the crack. As far as the two added bolts on the first pitch: it is unprotected 5.7 for the first 20 feet or so then gets noticably easier for another 10' where the first bolt is. The second bolt (somewhat shared with Suprise) is another 25' up after very easy climbing, that just gets easier the closer you get to the belay. As said, done hundreds or thousands of times. Someone recently told me the same thing about Mickey Mantle stated earlier. They said ground fall potential getting to the second bolt (which may be true with an unattentive belayer). Know your abilities and be able to down climb if you get in over your head and be an attentive belayer (you may need to take a couple steps back to take in some slack). That is what is going on up there and if you don't like it, stay in the gym or go to a "sport" area. Suicide will not be turned into this.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 3, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
^^^^^

+1

I applaud Johannsolo for not letting the gymrats and gumbys mess with Suicide Rock's proud heritage


hopefully all the locals up there are likeminded and do things per consensus


I hate to think what will happen when there are no purists left.


-
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
"In Germany, they first came for the communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the homosexuals, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a homosexual.
Then they came for the catholics, and I didn't speak up
because I was a protestant.
Then they came for me --
but by that time there was no one left to speak up."

--Pastor Martin Neimoller

I am speaking up now before any more "retro" bolting is done up at Suicide to make the routes "safer". There seems to be some talk of this. There is no discussion here. Come talk to me personally any weekend up there.

John Weinberg
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:47pm PT
I think it is important to avoid the US vs THEM discussion, because it has more to do with establishing ourselves than coming together whatsoever as a community.

I understand you feel the way about stopping it before it gets rampant.



No one is saying to turn Suicide into a sport climbing location. This one bolt could be useful, could be a bad idea. But Suicide (not tahquitz) is museum climbing, it will never be popular with the gym crowd. No one can put in enough bolts to turn it into a Holcomb.

There is a thing called "logical fallacies," like the hell-in-a-handbasket idea, which are usually thrown out too often. Super useful conversation some times, but again, I'm not saying the WHOLE weeping wall. I'm talking about one route, climbed mostly because it is the easiest thing there. I know a lot of gym climbers who frequently climb the hardest things out there. I love adventure, I love excitement, I love runout routes that challenge me and that I can look up to.


I know the arguments about bolts gets.... annoying. People will punch eachother out, end freindships, cause HUGE rifts in the community.

It's great to have guys like John and Apogee - people who can keep us centered and remind us where we came from. Absolutely I appreciate your insights, and I think collectively we have to balance history and adventure with convenience. As a climber who frequents these areas, who drives on a paved road past huge pieces of infrastructure and giant blotches of chalk, I just don't see how one bolt on a 5.7 that is pretty popular solely for its difficulty will make a difference. People aren't there for adventure, they are setting topropes up for their buddies or dragging up their mom (me!).


In the end, really, I think you are absolutely in the right in pulling it, because I think returning to roots is always a good idea. My feelings are more centered around the other stuff - read these comments and really understand that we are talking about perhaps 3 ounces of Stainless in a rock. Not ones to come, but this one instance. Seems a bit silly how worked up we get, and how much of a sh#t we can seem to give about it.


Not valhalla. Not Rebolting. Sh#t, not even a route like The Hernia. This is generally considered THE EASIEST bolted route at Suicide. Weird to get overly precious about it.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
John


You used a quote created to describe the murdering of millions of Jews for placing a bolt on a 5.7 slab.



I'm gonna let that sink in for a minute ;D



I put the bolt on surprise and if it gets chopped im going to chisel steps into it.

FINALLY someone gets it!


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:53pm PT

Eventually it was decided no bolt, but slabs are notorious for runouts and it is too bad that today's climbers don't do them. So we all agreed on retrobolting a few, and they are insanely popular.

So if you sit down and be logical a certain amount of retrobolting can be agreed upon. With the FA's permission of course, which was no big deal.

This is a much more eloquent way to say what I think. Just kind of interesting, its one of the few times after I abandoned organized religion I feel like I'm in church again.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
The issue is also that Surprise has historical significance.

Pretty sure it was the first route put up on the WW...FA dudes did it in vibram soles!

.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Oct 3, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
So three years after the offending bolts were placed, are they still there?

You would think the "local climbing Community" would have resolved the issue by now.
Maybe it has?
ya better check 1st John

BTW,I put boot to those weeping wall routes a few times(72-75) and was around when some of them were put up.

Tad
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
^^^^^^

The bolts were still there about a month ago


.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
Y'all in California digress constantly into discussions about this bolt or that bolt on this overclimbed route or that....are there only six or seven routes in the State...I thought there were more.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Y'all in California digress constantly into discussions about this bolt or that bolt on this overclimbed route or that....are there only six or seven routes in the State...I thought there were more.


It can sometimes be a type of 'settling,' like complaining about the garden or the neighbors lawn.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Johan.....Shouldn't of said anything and removed them...Would the reaction have been the same as the placement of said bolt? I think not. Suprise was one of my first run slabs....Climbed a lot down there and learned a lot. GDavis..... No difference then adding a bolt to Valhala or any other route. It's been said many times on many other bolt threads that the general consensus is the FA has the say. The argument against or the 'no one owns the rock" argument so far is in the minority. There are plenty of well protected routes in the world. You had a goal called "The Vampire". I'm sure you would have been disappointed if you found a new bolt on that(good job on reaching your goal bye the way!). You can't decide which climbs are sacred or not. For many, Suprise has been a stepping stone on the path of runout slab which many call the true Bastion of climbing as noted on other threads. And there are few better training grounds then Tahquitz and Suicide.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
No difference then adding a bolt to Valhala or any other route

Yup exactly the same.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
^^^^^^

I'm glad someone is willing to go to war over it.


If someone tries to stop you, what would you do?
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 3, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
As I said, there is no discussion here. Those bolts will be chopped this weekend.
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Oct 3, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
Chiseled Steps it is!
Epic E

Big Wall climber
CA
Oct 3, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
Before to long climbing gyms are going to be shut down here in CA because the plastic holds are going to be outlawed just like the plastic bags we used to put are grocery's in. Then all you old timer bad ass slab climbers are going to be pulling the last of your hair out when the retro bolts start popping up to keep the noobies safe. California communism is RAD! You guys wont even climb anymore, you'll just be going out to rappel and chop bolts. You'll have to much pride to climb a retro bolted route and not enough sack to climb past a bolt without clipping it. CA is awesome!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 3, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
^^^^^^^
Just before the Annunaki return?
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 3, 2012 - 11:58pm PT
Epic E did you really put a bolt 10 -15 feet up from the protectable crack or are you kidding? I thought we were only discussing Clark's bolt that was added for Clam Chowder.

If you did place a bolt 10-15 feet above the crack I have to respectfully disagree. Chiseled steps isn't a good joke by the way.

peace eric
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 4, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Surprise is easy, no bolt is needed.

G-davis I thought you liked the history and had some respect for the stone.

When you climb Surprise, don't go anywhere near that crack. If you do, you need to traverse to the left to get to the easy stuff - and that is the move most folks fall off of.

We always always lined up about 15 feet left of the crack, bust moves up and after about only 15 feet or so you latch a killer edge and the climbing gets easy...much like a 5.7 boulder problem.

The bolt is not needed. I am SURPRISED that people are saying that Clark put that one in. I really find that surprising that he would do it cause it serves no purpose.

So chop away.

John if you need help, PM me. I'm all in.

Guy Keesee

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 4, 2012 - 03:52pm PT

G-davis I thought you liked the history and had some respect for the stone


I do. I just saw a lot of people getting very worked up over a small issue.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 4, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
150 posts arguing about a single chip of metal. *(sigh)*

Yes it's on a classic route. NO.. it shouldn't have been put there but... it's ridiculous that this thread has been bouncing around for so long. I've lost count of how many people proclaimed they were going to chop it over the last few years that haven't done so.

Just make a f*#king decision.

2 things can happen:

1) Chop it? Fine.. quit talking about it and get out of your armchair and go chop it... do it this week. Temps look great this week for chopping. Go for it. No one is stopping you.

2) Leave it? Fine. Quit ranting that it needs to be chopped and live with it. It's a lame, unnecessary bolt. It's not the end of the climbing universe.





toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 4, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
-

uhhh, there are two bolts that prolly need choppin, on 1st pitch of Surprise...like guyzo said, avoid the right crack and just go up straight; it's 20ft of 5.7 bouldering to the big stuff


boltless, the sketched out noob leader can always bring some hooks and use 10ft of duct tape strips to secure them babys to various flakes/holds; don't want any noobs taking that 60-footer to the deck now


-


guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 4, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
GDavis and Maid.......

No mater how you feel, about bolts, I know both of you have huge respect for the history of our sport. Surprise is a piece of that history. It was one of the first "modern" face climbs. It broke from tradition of not climbing blank faces. It is very much like the B&Y in that the B&Y broke from the tradition of the "stance" needed for drilling.

I like history and I think protecting it is important.

If this sort of thinking... Ok to add bolts if enuf folks think it's a good idea....
continues than one day we will be fighting about the bolts added to The Edge.

That will suck

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
It looks to me that, after a three year resurrection, some of the key findings of this thread may have been lost in the most recent posts. Take note of this post from somewhere around #70:

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise)."

The 'Surprise' bolt was not intended for 'Surprise' at all...it's on 'Clam Chowder'. Nothing wrong with resurrecting the discussion of retrobolting routes, but howzabout some consistency in some basic facts such as the route in question...

Edit: ...and even if that bolt could be used on 'Surprise', it's in a location that provides trivial, if any, protection to that route.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 4, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
App... you are correct.

Guck

Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Oct 4, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Getting into the crack of White Lightning can be tricky. The start certainly needs three or four bolts to make it safe, with a nice "sports climb" feel. Another possible bolt project could be the mantle on the nutcracker, and many many more ...

It is time for some "climbers" to switch to lawn bowling, and leave the rocks as they are!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 4, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
__It's a lovely little tempest
In a lovely little teapot
Would you like to take some sugar
Or will you take some cream?__

Popcorn's free.
Who needs cable?
It is a first-time re-run, though.
If they had TV:

Merry: Hey, there was a bolt found on the Five Open Books.
Werner: Why am I not surpeised?
Merry: Yep. I've seen who climbs there...
Werner; Quatch'd you say?
Merry: I said I saw Quatch over on the Surprise several years ago.
Werner: Why am I not surprised. He's so much fun to sandbag.
Merry: Anything on the zzzzzzzzBrown thread? I'm tired as heck.
Werner: Yep. Mouse can talke your ear off. I ignore him, myself.


Going back to Suicide
I missed the first few tries
Going back to Cali Cali Cali
Going back to Taquitz Tahquitz Tockeets
With a bolt kit on my knee.

Never show up at a local crag with a bolt kit.
Word to the un-wise n00bie who just bought his very own kit.
Ask, you fool, before you drill, if there is doubt.

Even when I was the Suicidal Dilettante, clinking around the base with a rack of mostly biners of a weekend, I seemed to think "not too run-out, you can always reach over to a nearby climb and clip pro if you really need it." What, if I may I ask, the F*#k, if you'll pardon my French, is new? They fu--ing grow bolts on that apron, there.

It blows my mind to think it's quiet enough there during the week, when this probably happened, for it to be able to happen. Too many witnesses on the weekend.

BFD, really. To clip or not to clip ain't even the question. It should be, "Which route am I really on?" Or, "Is this a valid send if I clip here?"

I feel like an interloper, but the Sluice-Side crag's one of the prettiest in the Sierra Nevada, and I sorta like it best of all the So-Cal (so-cial) crags I have visited. It's always so crowded. I guess it's cuz the routes are so crowded in, like a grid-locked freeway system. Guy wandering around the base with a sign: "Will drill for food." Flip it over and it says: "Will listen to and spread any of your stories for a Double-Double."

No one expects you to clip every bolt. Sometimes you really wonder why there isn't one, too. It is a very loose game and it appeals to me more than golf, certainly, in that respect. Things tend to even out.

And then you die. Suicide, Swisside, or othercide.

justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
OK- amend that to two chips of metal. I was sort of being facetious.

Sorry- it's been two/three years now and the bolts are still there. I don't know what that means. Either the community has accepted them, or if they are unacceptable - someone needs to remove them and not spend another 2 years bitching about it online.

PS: I do respect the history BTW. :)





Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 4, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be. I've never even seen Gdavis at Suicide, just bullshittin! at the shop. You know who I am Greg?
John Weinberg


Absolutely I do. You've seen me and we've been cordial several times that we've talked. Its unfortunate you don't want to extend that same courtesy online.

I don't climb at suicide much, its quite a drive and I've been injured much this year.

I train hard, VERY hard. I work my f*#king ass off, likely more so than almost anyone posting on this thread. I am humbled only by myself, and the strongest climbers I've ever met have incidentally been the most honest, humble, well meaning people.

I'm not sure what makes you tick, John. You're a quirky guy - like me. There's a lot of us out there.

I think intent is important and I think that we need to live with the reality that I easily could have been born John Weinberg, or Apogee, or JustTheMaid. Sometimes I lose that thought and can be disrespectful online - I don't mean it, I'm just trying to make light of often unnecessarily heavy situations.

There is a Musashi quote which goes something like the Way of the warrior does not include other Ways...but if you know the Way broadly, you will see it in everything. The small struggles in climbing, those crux moves, you have to work them and you have to come to grips with weaknesses. Maybe we should do that outside the crag more often.


Peace brother.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
"If I am still on this earth come Monday, those bolts will not be."

I think I understand your position, but I'd have more respect for it if you reached the same position by talking with Clark before taking action. Everyone has a right to their opinion on a matter like this, but Clark ain't no sport wankin' n00b who pulls plastic at Rockreation...he is by far the most prolific steward of Suicide & Tahquitz, and has been for decades. A direct conversation with him is certainly in order.

If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 5, 2012 - 05:47am PT
If/when you do go there, please do it with craftsmanship. A hack job would be most unfortunate.


I can't agree enough on this point. It's better to leave it alone if you can't remove it cleanly. I've seen a number of chop jobs lately that were a complete mess/eyesore. If you have enough energy to go chopping, you should be willing to invest the time required to restore things to original. That's my last say.

I'll let the big-boys duke it out,

Have a nice weekend everyone.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 5, 2012 - 06:35am PT
Don't y'all worry. I know how to patch it up so no one will know. This ain't my first rodeo. Clark will also be involved.
Ryans

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Oct 6, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
The two bolts in question are definitely on Clam Chowder, although P1 of Surprise and Clam Chowder are almost the same. Clark has the FA on Clam Chowder and placed the bolts.

Are the bolts absolutely necessary? Probably not.

Does the FA party want them there? Yes.

Clark has done a significant amount of work and spent much of his own money improving the safety of anchors and routes all over Tahquitz and Suicide. Clark climbs at Suicide more than any other person on Earth. Shouldn't we respect his desire to have the bolts on his own climb?

I do not want bolts added to classic climbs and test pieces, ever. That being said, is the first pitch of Clam Chowder a classic climb or test piece at the grade? Absolutely not.

I say leave them be. The two bolts are not hurting anybody; you can forego the clips if you feel inclined. Let's show some respect to a man who has done so much for this area. Let's show some respect to the desire of the FA party.

I rarely see people lining up to do Surprise anyway. Why are we obsessing about this? Nobody complains about rap anchors on the Sunshine Face. Nobody complains about rap anchors on Johnny Quest. Or atop Passtime/Frustration. None of those were done by the FA party. So if we're going to discuss removing added bolts, lets talk about those before we pull bolts on a climb placed by the FA party.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Oct 6, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
^^^
I would have to agree, even though I have not climbed there in 35yrs,
I would say Clarks route his call.
Tad
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 6, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
The only reason the bolts were left in the first place was due to Clark having placed them on his own route, and wanting them to remain. Had it been someone else all of this would have been moot immediately. Johnny metioned that Clark would be involved, hopefully he has had his say. Their addition was a mistake, imo, particularly after so many years. If Clark has come around to the same conclusion then take them out. If he hasn't, then perhaps defer (as was done initially) to his wishes. Given the FA aspect I tend to agree with some of Ryans points.

Maybe time would be as well spent taking the retro bolt out of Pink Royd (button head without a hanger in the trough after the crux - I'm sure it is intented for use with a wire on it), or the two retro bolts out of the dihedral on the second of the Cross. The dihedral of the Cross has been led multiple times without any fixed gear. To my knowledge none of those bolts were placed by the FA party or with their approval.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 6, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Clark did not want any discussion. Said he would replace them if they were removed. Threatened to chop all the bolt anchors I have placed along with my project on Eagle pinnacle. Called me a weekend warrior. I guess they stay for now by my hand. The second one really is on Suprise though. Sad outcome for ethics. No one owns the rock, we are all just stewards.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 6, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
-

oh well


guess we won't be standing on the shoulders of giants...just nibbling at their ankles





too bad Jacobs won't add to the discussion


-
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 6, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
Yeap, the second one really is on Surprise. That is the biggest shame of the whole thing.

I don't think Clark does the whole internet thing much.

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 7, 2012 - 06:22am PT
It's not like Clark is sitting in front of a laptop flirting with the "Post Reply" button. You'd more likely get an email from Dirk Diggler.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2012 - 09:47am PT
"Why are we obsessing about this?"

Excellent question.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Oct 7, 2012 - 10:24am PT
We're obsessing about this thread, you started, because Surprise allowed us noobs/gumbies to venture onto the Weeping Wall w/o having the resquite skills or ballsack needed to do any other of the routes on the WW. After I did it for the first time in 76, it helped in my building my fledgling confidence. Yes it's not that hard but the distance one is likely to slide bolsters ones resolve not to mess up.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 7, 2012 - 11:58am PT
My guess is that Jacobs thinks that noobsters should not have to DIE on a pleasant weekend jaunt to Suicide Rocks..simple as that.

Of course that is open to debate.....



.
mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 7, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
I think you should apologize to Clark--Johansolo for overreacting and saying you would chop the bolts no matter what he says. Sounds like you guys know each other and will probably sit down and have a few beers. At wich time Clark should apologize to you about calling you a "weekend warrior" . Then in an non confrontational manner you should have a bolt discussion.

Just my .02 but if the conversation started out in a confrontational manner it would explain why it went the way it did.

peace Eric
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 8, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
Yep, bolt is on Surprise. From yesterday...:

Surprise (indeed!) at Suicide 7 October 2012
Surprise (indeed!) at Suicide 7 October 2012
Credit: Brian in SLC

Jean shows her displeasure at the new addition.

Hadn't climbed the route in 25 or so years... Yeah, I clipped it (ha ha), mostly for clarity in the photo (I mean its barely 5th class there).

Great route.

Noticed the other bolt on Clam Chowder's first pitch, about 15 feet off the deck on that route.

Both nice stainless bolts. Powers. Spendy little rigs.

Easy enough to pull, but, bolt wars ain't no fun. And, that fine rock wouldn't be the winner for sure.
Cooker

Mountain climber
LA, CA
Oct 8, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
Call Nomad Ventures in Idyllwild if you want to talk to Clark Jacobs.
Or PM me and I'll send you his number.

Of course, how can you climb for long in Idyllwild without running into him...
BJGivens

Social climber
CA
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
"Hadn't climbed the route in 25 or so years... Yeah, I clipped it (ha ha), mostly for clarity in the photo (I mean its barely 5th class there)."

Congratulations your are a giant f*#king douche and a top notch pussy too.

I cant even imagine how it must feel to be that big of a douche, it must be very exhausting.

So you clipped a bolt you diss approve of and then get on the internet to talk sh#t about it?

The word Douche doesn't do you justice you f*#king piece of sh#t, and all your pals on this site can go f*#k yourselves.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
First post, huh?

Classy.
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
hahahahahaha.......popcorn anybody?
BJGivens

Social climber
CA
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
Yup and my second is to tell you your a f*#king sack of sh#t.
You f*#ks make me want to chisel some rock, f*#k you.
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
^^^
BJGivens= TROLL
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
That's more than Trolling, more like Drift Netting!
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 9, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
BJGivens...

Really like your profile name!
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Oct 9, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
"Driftnetting" ahhahahaha.....Meanwhile, what the F Johan? 3rd class that sucker with a pair of tuners and yank the thing!
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 19, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
The bolt Clark Jacobs added to Suprise(1966) three years ago is gone and the hole is patched. I stand by what was done. There is also a cam placement about six feet to the right and just below the "added" bolt so it is not even needed for protection. Most people will also be bringing gear for the initial 20 feet of crack climbing so this is not a "bolts" only route.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
"The bolt Clark Jacobs added to Suprise(1966)...."

Ummmm...that bolt he added was to 'Clam Chowder'.

It wasn't intended to be on 'Surprise'....it just wound up that way.

This has been clarified several times in this thread. Why are you persisting in describing it that way?

You mentioned earlier that you would do this with Clark's involvement...did that actually happen?
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 19, 2012 - 11:19pm PT
The second bolt added was on Suprise. I climbed up and down that first pitch many times and always passed the un-needed bolt. The first bolt added to Clam Chowder was left in place. There is no discussion needed. Gear can be placed very near where the added bolt was.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 08:13am PT
(From upthread)

henny
Nov 12, 2009 - 01:20pm PT

"Okay - something a little more concrete.

The bolt in question is not on Surprise but is instead on Clam Chowder. It is one of two bolts that were added to the first pitch of Clam Chowder about a month ago, and was put in by Clark Jacobs who was a member of the FA party (Clark Jacobs, Jay Smith, Jim Wood - 1973). After putting up the route they agreed bolts in the first pitch would have been good, and that eventually one of them could/would come back and do it at a later date. "

"The two new bolts on Clam Chowder were put in by a member of the FA party. So it would seem to merit consideration."



microcam
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:40pm PT

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise). "

***

So....was Clark involved in your removal effort, or not?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 22, 2012 - 11:56am PT
To put the above Nov. 12 quote from henny into the full context of this thread, take a look at what he wrote later:

Oct 6, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
Yeap, the second one really is on Surprise. That is the biggest shame of the whole thing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
As several stated upthread, Clark deserves some deference on this- he may very well agree that (in retrospect) this bolt wasn't needed or well-placed, but his decades of stewardship of Suicide & Tahquitz (not to mention FA status on CC) exceeds that of virtually anyone.

It's quite possible he'd agree that it should go (or be moved), but I'd much prefer seeing him make that call than some unilateral action from someone with an agenda. Every time that happens, the crag loses.
Ryans

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
Good thing the "Overlord of Suicide Rock" was finally able to remove the bolt. It was clearly burning everybody up inside, which explains why it lasted a brief 3 years in the rock.

I guess the opinions of the FA party and LOCAL CLIMBERS don't matter as long as somebody gets to feel like a big man pulling bolts. We can all feel like bold manly men now because a bolt was removed on run-out 5.0 slab. Good thing nobody complains about the shitty gear anchors on Suicide and Tahquitz that were replaced with bolts so that we don't have to actually be bold when it matters.

I asked around and to my knowledge, no Idyllwild climbers cared enough to remove the bolt.

I sincerely hope this doesn't turn into a "bolt war". I know that Clark wants the bolt there and he may well decide to replace it. One insignificant bolt is not worth destroying the rock with repeated chopping and replacing.

Damn this looks high

Trad climber
Temecula, CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
Bolt choppers and climbers concerned with the ethics of climbing seem to think climbing is a game like 'Step on crack, break you mother's back.' It's not a GAME, Dipshits. It's life and death. Chopping a bolt, removing fixed pins that have been there for years--long enough for people to EXPECT them to be there, is irresponsible. I repeat--IT'S NOT A GAME.
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 22, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
Ha. It sounds like I contradict myself!

Those who know the routes in question understand that due to the extremely easy nature of the terrain in the vicinity of the second bolt it is pretty much impossible for a bolt to be on Clam Chowder but not Surprise. Technically, the bolt was placed on Clam Chowder. But Surprise is so easy in that vicinity that the bolt also becomes part of it. The only way to differentiate routes in that area is to specify the exact line and holds, no deviations of more than a foot or two to the side allowed. So if you're using the Clam Chowder holds you can clip the bolt, otherwise not. That obviously isn't workable.

Not adding the second bolt at all in the first place would have been the best course of action. However, it is a time honored tradition that people can change their own routes, and Clark did the FA of Clam Chowder. Unfortunately, the pitch basically shares the same finish as Surprise so the can of worms was opened.

A question that comes out of this seems to be if there is a statue of limitations, so to speak, regarding route ownership. If there even is such a thing as ownership beyond a reasonable time. It is accepted, and needfully so, that bolts are not added other than by the FA party. But if the FA party owns the route and can alter it for an indefinate time, couldn't they just as well decide to remove bolts as opposed to adding them? If Bachar would have removed the bolts from the second on the B/Y because 15 years later he felt they weren't needed (by him) would people say it was cool because, after all, he did the FA? Once a route has been out there long enough for public consumption perhaps it isn't "owned" anymore and should be left as is (even by the FA party)?

I find the notion rather bothersome that being the most "local" means one is free to make whatever changes one wants. This is not directed specifically at Clark, rather as an observation in general since the term local seems to be coming up a bit. There are a lot of questions that come out of defining "local".

It would be nice to debate/discuss the underlying issues objectively. It's not all about any one person, or any one route.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Oct 22, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Its a conundrum...

We did Surprise and Clam Chowder a couple weeks back. IMHO, the bolt ended up being on Surprise. We TR'd clam chowder, but, I'm pretty ok at following easy terrain and I didn't come that close to the bolt in question. I ran right over the top of it on Surprise (see photo above).

Was Clark on point during the FA of Clam Chowder? I wonder if that makes any difference. I mean, I've held the rope for folks doing FA's, and, had the favor in return, but, as a second, especially for a ground up FA, I've never felt like it was my call to come back later and add pro. Ever.

Bit of a dust up here a year or two ago when bolts showed up on a long standing friction route. Feller came forward that did the deed, and, he was one of the FA guys, but, the second. Original FA guy had died, but, the second always felt like the guy who had led the route had given him permission to add a bolt to the route if he wanted to. Just waited a gob of years to do it. Stood up in front of the local community (was a huge turn out at one of the local gyms to discuss it) and gave his reasons, literally, with tears in his eyes as a local ER doc, he'd seen enough carnage in the sport. Said, go ahead and chop it, but, my conscious is clear, and, its on you, not me. Or something to that effect. Took a fair amount of courage to stand up and say it especially in front of a fairly hostile crowd with blood in the air. Bolt is still there, to my knowledge.

The Surprise/Clam Chowder bolt? I dunno. As a climber, IMHO, I wouldn't have supported its addition, but, I probably wouldn't have chopped it without talking to Clark first. He's accessible. My partner? Had we a wrench, the bolt would have been gone. She was pissed it was there.

FA has a right to do what they want, irregardless of the locally accepted style and ethics (ugh)? Maybe. Maybe not.

My bet is Clark didn't talk to Pat, and, maybe didn't think he needed to. Wonder what Pat would think if his partner for Surprise went back and added bolts to that route...hmmm...

Interesting stuff...
Ryans

Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
Henny you made some good points. I especially like the one about removing bolts from a route years after a first ascent. That would be pretty upsetting if you were cruxed out and an expected bolt wasn't there!

You are correct, I and others threw around the word "locals" without much definition. Obviously very few people can truly be called a local because so few people live on the mountain.

I think an appropriate definition for local would be somebody who can, on a whim, climb at Tahquitz or Suicide without much forethought or planning, and does so regularly. To me, this really limits locals to a 1 hour driving time and excludes weekend/holiday only climbers. Climbers from Idyllwild, Pine Cove, Mountain Center, Garner Valley, Anza, Hemet, etc. probably would fall into this category. If one is unable to climb here most days of the week because that person lives to far away (not due to laziness, bad weather, or darkness), then that person is effectively not a local.

Example: In spring 2012, I climbed at Joshua Tree practically every week from January-April, sometimes for many days at a time. However, I live in Idyllwild and it required forethought, planning, and over 2 hours of driving for me to get there. I am NOT at local at Joshua Tree, even though I climbed there frequently.

On the subject of ownership. I am on the fence here. I like to believe the FA has ownership of the route, to a limit. The bolt was placed way past that limit, in my opinion, whatever the limit may be. BUT, does somebody who, in every single way imaginable, has absolutely no connection with the route, other than having climbed it a time or two have the right to remove a bolt placed by the FA party? I adamantly say NO.

Clark specifically told the bolt remover, in person, that he DID NOT WANT IT REMOVED. The bolt was removed anyway. I'm going to side with somebody who at least can lay some claim to the route over somebody who really has no business removing it when the only FA person in contact says NO. If Pat Callis was upset and wanted it gone, I agree. But frankly, I doubt he cares.

As for Suicide being "dumbed down". Johann, get a grip dude. 2 bolts in 100 feet is hardly dumbed down. Besides, aren't you climbing 5.12s? It seems to me you removed the bolt to gain personal notoriety rather than return an area to pure-ness. I hope you at least removed it on lead, facing the fall...
henny

Social climber
The Past
Oct 22, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Fair enough, although I disagree with that narrow of a definition for a local. Most people have jobs that give them nothing more than weekends to climb. Just because they happen to be constrained by a job doesn't mean they aren't a major activist/mover/contributor where they climb - at every chance they get. Being a weekend warrior (whatever that means) does not exclude someone from being a local.

By such a strict definition of local as live within an hour, I was never a Suicide/Tahquitz local. I lived in Redlands and rarely made it up in under an hour. Yet I was there as much as people who lived in the mentioned towns. And I climbed there extensively for something like 25 years, some of those years including weekday trips. Maybe it's vanity, but I like to think that at one time I was a local based on how much I had climbed there and what I had done. Not living on the mountain didn't mean people weren't locals.

My point is, it seems to me that being a local can also be related to the quantity of climbing done in an area, as well as the amount of contributions made to the area (FAs for example), not just whether one lives within a small radius of the area or can get to the area during the week. Some areas don't even have a town near them, yet there are climbers who are considered "locals" for reasons other than residence proximity.

Just some of my take on the subject.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 22, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
The added bolts are not in any published topo. There is gear available very near where the second bolt was. Please tell me who are these "LOCAlS" you are refering to and how often do they climb at Suicide?
It seems to me you removed the bolt to gain personal notoriety rather than return an area to pure-ness.I hope you at least removed it on lead, facing the fall...
So what about all the bolts I have replaced and cleaning of less traveled routes? I have as much respect for Suicide and those that put up the routes than anyone. The bolt was removed and patched not on lead, but solo.
Johannsolo

climber
Soul Cal
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:07am PT
I also replaced one of the last 1/4" bolts on the Weeping wall about three months ago. It was the first bolt on the third pitch of ...... Clam Chowder. Obviously for notoriety. All you "LOCALS" can sit around the shop talking and posting BS. I'm done here. See you up at the crags, NOT.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 23, 2012 - 08:30am PT
^^^^^
http://www.spike.com/video-clips/gxgmxl/borat-humor-coach
(fast forward about 2 min in)
Damn this looks high

Trad climber
Temecula, CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
"No one owns the rock, we are all just stewards." Johannsolo.

Seems to me that you've appointed yourself as THE steward (I've been told you were also the person who removed the pins from Etude. Thanks. What an eyesore that was).

Watch out folks, there's a new sheriff in town.
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Oct 23, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Brian From SLC makes a good point. What does the FA party of Suprise think? It's a tricky one and there was a good thread on adding bolts that may change the nature of a route it crosses. Most FA parties hope that the nature of their climb not be changed unless they OK it. The bolt in question does change the nature of the climb whether or not it is 5.2 or 5.12. As an older climber, the numbers mean less but to the beginner, it is an important tool. And although I by no means consider myself a local, I was fortunate enough to climb a lot there in my formitive years and learn from a "local" of many years (and who happens to be a good friend of Clark's) and remember Suprise as being an important stepping stone in that facet of climbing. Henny's initial regret of the bolt's placement seems right as well as both Clark and Johan's opposite poles. Both sides have merit. But I would side towards the removal of any reto bolt which changes the nature of another climb without the other climbs FA consent.
pile

Mountain climber
somewhere near suicide rock
Oct 24, 2012 - 09:53am PT
wow what a mess this is turning into

johannsolo-Dude, who made you in charge? And why are you so worried about one of the easiest routes when you climb at the opposite end of the scale? I did have some respect for you after hearing about your efforts on SYN, and recent attempts on trying to free TFC...Thats awesome you have replaced some of the last few old ' 1/4ers on weeping wall. If you want to help the crag in a positive way, there are plenty more bad bolts up there that need some replacing. Your actions on this surprise bolt can turn into a baby bolt war, or pissing contest. Either way, many do not want to see this go down here at suicide.

but who cares what I think. Im just another self described local that cares about bullshit going down at his favourite place to climb.

neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Oct 24, 2012 - 10:46am PT
I say leave the bolt if clark wants it there...sometimes we have to trust the judgement of "our" valley giants...
Murf

climber
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:14am PT

Clark is a great guy. Personable, a font of information, and just an all around asset to the area.

That said, it doesn't give him license to retro bolt anything he wants. Surprise is not his route, and it was without that bolt for over 40 years. It isn't the first route Clark has added bolts to and its not the first of such bolts that was removed.

And somehow since Johannsolo climbs hard means he can't clean up a mess on a 5.8? He actually get props from me for caring enough about a route that is likely quite easy for him.

This isn't an issue. The ethics of the area are pretty well set. Don't add bolts to others lines, or to your own lines if they are shared with an preexisting route.

Johannsolo thanks for cleaning up the mess.

Murf
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 24, 2012 - 11:25am PT
^^^^^^

+1

I can see both sides of the issue, but gotta ultimately agree with Murf


mainly because Surprise is such an historic route, should be preserved as FA party saw fit


also seems that Johannsolo has some cred up there
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 24, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
That said, it doesn't give him license to retro bolt anything he wants.

The bolt in question is not on Surprise but is instead on Clam Chowder. It is one of two bolts that were added to the first pitch of Clam Chowder about a month ago, and was put in by Clark Jacobs who was a member of the FA party (Clark Jacobs, Jay Smith, Jim Wood - 1973). After putting up the route they agreed bolts in the first pitch would have been good, and that eventually one of them could/would come back and do it at a later date. "

"The two new bolts on Clam Chowder were put in by a member of the FA party. So it would seem to merit consideration."


microcam
Nov 12, 2009 - 07:40pm PT

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise). "


Clark is incredibly honest about his actions, and I agree - he isn't the "servant" of Idyllwild.

I don't think anyone is.

Some people just need religion everywhere in their life...

Those bolts weren't necessary - none are. They likely won't be missed. However, those two things don't have to be true about all routes at Suicide.

Never fear, the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, and the world will go on largely unaware of the grumblings of mountain folk.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 24, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Tempest in a teapot.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 24, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
teacup*
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