A 'Surprise' bolt!

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apogee

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 02:36pm PT

Suicide is as busy as ever- probably much moreso than the last time you were there, John. During the May-Sept season, esp. on weekends, the parking lots are full, and the crag is full of people. It still amuses me how many n00bs will go to Suicide because they heard it is bolted, and therefore assume it is a 'sportclimbing' area. Boy, are they in for a 'surprise'!

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Peenemunde

Nov 11, 2009 - 03:10pm PT

I have done the route about 10 times over the years. Never needed the bolt or wish I had one. Someone better check out 10 Carot.

Juan

apogee

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2009 - 11:46pm PT

Here's Bob's response (hope he doesn't mind me passing it along):

"Don't know anything about it, but I'm guessing it won't last long. Retro
bolting runnout routes is like opening pandora's box- plenty of climbers would
like to add a bolt to this route or that route. It's a slippery slope.

The rule was always this: you can only add a bolt to an existing route if
you got permssion from the first ascent party, but even then it may get
chopped.

Todd Gordon asked me if he could add acouple of bolts to an old R rated
route of mine at Joshua Tree, and I said OK. The bolts were chopped soon after."

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago'

Nov 12, 2009 - 01:59am PT

Apogee!

Whats the world coming to?

Surprise?

The only thing I am surprised about is that you didn't immediately chop it
and ask questions later if need be.

BITD everyone use to do 'Surprise' in Robbins before EB's.
Let them get away with that and Suicide is History.

It's the first pitch, they could of down climbed or just not did it.
Disgusting.

I haven't read any of the other post's, this just caught my attention, so I am probably just repeating everyone else.

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago'

Nov 12, 2009 - 02:12am PT

TGT- "more like left a coiler on the front pew"

Soooooooooooooo...HALARIOS!!

That is gonna keep me rolling all week.

henny

Social climber

The Past

Nov 12, 2009 - 04:20pm PT

Okay - something a little more concrete.

The bolt in question is not on Surprise but is instead on Clam Chowder. It is one of two bolts that were added to the first pitch of Clam Chowder about a month ago, and was put in by Clark Jacobs who was a member of the FA party (Clark Jacobs, Jay Smith, Jim Wood - 1973). After putting up the route they agreed bolts in the first pitch would have been good, and that eventually one of them could/would come back and do it at a later date.

Clark obviously finally got around to doing just that.

The first pitch of Clam Chowder starts approximately 20' left of Surprise and for the most part is completely independent (possibly joining for the last bit, depending on your line).

Another bit of info - Clark knows Larry Reynolds and talked to him about the runout nature of the first pitch of Surprise (Callis & Reynolds, FA). As it turns out, they didn't run the first pitch, but instead placed a few tied off knife blades in some of the horizontal seams in the upper part of the pitch (sorry to blow any buzzes but the FA didn't just go for it.) The scars from those pins can still be found in the area if closely looked for.

Clark was very up front when asked what he knew, giving the facts and his rationale. I decided to pass on the information for other people to consider.

The two new bolts on Clam Chowder were put in by a member of the FA party. So it would seem to merit consideration.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Nov 12, 2009 - 04:43pm PT

Thanks for the info.

My weekend is saved now.

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Nov 12, 2009 - 04:53pm PT

ever wish you could just freeze-frame the climbing world at a favorite point in time? that'd be 1977 - 1978 for me.

*heavy sigh*

the world keeps turning, even though sometimes i wish i could get off.

apogee

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 04:58pm PT

Assuming we are speaking of the same bolt (which is likely), the new bolt I spotted is located on the 'good' ledge just below the anchors- you can see the ledge designated here on the topo:

This ledge is located almost directly in line b/w the top of the flake/crack and the anchors- when traversing leftwards towards the anchor, it is the logical & typical ledge to move to. I will certainly defer to Clark's judgement as the first ascensionist (and a friend), but in effect, the new bolt also protects Surprise, though in an odd location, since by the time you've reached that ledge (from Surprise or Clam Chowder), the last moves are inconsequential.

Nonetheless, this is helpful information, and good to know that it is unlikely that some yahoo has been up there retro-fitting of late. TGT, Juan...you might want to change your bolt-chopping plans for this weekend...

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago'

Nov 12, 2009 - 05:34pm PT

bvb!

May you be the one and same as bob van bell? Woodson @ 86-90?

Just curious have a question if answer be yes.

I'll just ask the Q= do know Jonathon S? and have U talked to him lately?

You wouldn't remember me. I think it was only once or twice that we met, Jonathon was there. Nothing to be particularly memorable about in regards to 'me'.

TripL7

Trad climber

'dago'

Nov 12, 2009 - 05:48pm PT

TGT- "my weekend is saved".

Well, at least we won't need to be concerned about mad-bolters.

Guess the world(at least the Mts)ain't such a bad place after all.

bvb

Social climber

flagstaff arizona

Nov 12, 2009 - 05:56pm PT

TripL7 --

yep, that'd be me. What was Jonathon S.'s full name? PM it too me, that might jog my memory. Lost a lot of brain cells since the 80's...!

henny

Social climber

The Past

Nov 12, 2009 - 05:59pm PT

apogee - I also have to believe we're talking about the same bolt.

It is quite unfortunate that the new bolt can also be used when doing Surprise. However, given what really happened on the FA with the pins I guess the nature of the pitch hasn't entirely changed between what they (FA) experienced and what it would be like with the new bolt. Clark did say you can find one of those old pin scars in the proximate area of the new bolt.

bvb, yeah.

I've done a fair number of routes up there this year. Everything has been in order with regard to bolts, no new lead bolts added to any of the pitches I did (10KG included, per a comment earlier in the thread).

I have a feeling this one will slide because of the FA aspect. There are still watchers at Suicide who have an interest in bolts that are added to existing routes. That's good to see.

microcam

Trad climber

San Juan Capistrano. California

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:40pm PT

As I mentioned on a previous post, we need to do our homework before we start bitchin' about a bolt that has been added to an existing route. I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise). He was involved in putting up that particular route (as well as others at Suicide). Clark is old school and has replaced over 150 bolts on Suicide alone. He has been involved in numerous rescues at Suicide as well as Yosemite. On Saturday he graciously helped out some newbies who ended up having a blast as a result of Clark's help. So maybe next time before some start talking about breaking out the bold cutters and cement, do a little research before you start self righteously spewing about something you don't know anything about.

TKingsbury

Trad climber

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:44pm PT

Curious as to what route went up first, Surprise or Clam Chowder...

Looking apogee's topo, it looks like they join together where the bolt is marked...

edit: just read above, 1973 for Clam Chowder...off to look for the FA date on Surprise...but I'm guessing it is earlier as Callis was putting up routes in MT by 73....

F10

Trad climber

e350

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:49pm PT

Surprise went up in 66' way before CC

I remember doing Surprise unroped mid 70's and now I think what the hell was I thinking?

Roughster

Sport climber

Vacaville, CA

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:54pm PT

I love it. Between here and MP there are 10+ either flat out statements or alluding to "sport climbing / climbers) as the culprit and as it turns out it was the FAist.

Too f*#kin funny. /Cheers DMT for farting church, perfectly analogy.

I felt like making a new post. "SURPRISE" Cal Trans put a new lane on the (80). WTF I drove that freeway back when it was 2 lanes! How many 5 line Freeways do we really need. Damn sport pavers.....

apogee

climber

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2009 - 11:11pm PT

"...we need to do our homework before we start bitchin' about a bolt that has been added to an existing route."

Agreed. Which is why I suggested, early in this thread, "let's see if anyone can provide insight to this before reacting." Unfortunately, people seem to prefer drama to rationality, and there have been quite a few immediate reactions and assumptions that there was evil-doing at work. (It's also amusing how many of those comments are made by people who probably have never climbed at T&S, and therefore have little familiarity with the local history & ethics.)

"I spoke to Clark this past weekend and he said he added the two bolts to the first pitch of Clam Chowder (not Surprise)."

I have great deference to Clark in his judgement on bolting- as you state, he has done a terrific service to T&S over the years, not to mention innumerable climbers he has guided. That said, the new bolt does protect Surprise to a (very) limited degree, however unintended. I have done Surprise countless times, and that bolt is smack-dab in the midst of the traverse towards the anchors.

All of this seems to be generating 'much ado about nothing', now that it is understood that Clark has placed the bolt. I vote to let it rest, thank Clark for his continued commitment and effort, and go climbing.