Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
|
I remember in the mid 70's when a large party led by Fava and accompanied by a priest came thru our campsite on the way to the Torre Cirque. They were looking for two climbers, long dead, in order to give them a decent Christian burial. They spent long, fruitless hours under a meanicing hanging glacier before giving up. I could never, still can't, understand risking lives in such an endeavor. There is no better resting place for an alpinist than where his/her last adventure came to an end.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
|
So be it....humans have strong belief systems, many of which, I cannot fathom. I would never get in the way of such efforts, neither would I in any way support them- to each his own
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
|
I'm with Jim on that. If someone runs across my mouldering remains, I'd rather they let 'em lie.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
|
Lest we forget, these were people once. Our friends and comrades.
Sleeping Beauty
by Neil Tweedie
May 6, 2007
EVEREST has many ways of punishing the overconfident and the unwary. It can freeze its victims to death in a sudden, roaring storm, or kill them quietly at night, using the seductive warmth of hypothermia to carry them away in their sleep. It can suffocate painfully with its thin air just as the summit beckons, or inter bodies forever under avalanches of snow and rock. And if none of these, there is always the chance of a collapsing ice bridge and a hidden, waiting crevasse.
Many of the climbers who perish touching the roof of the world are never seen again, but some simply lie there in the open year after year, preserved almost perfectly in deep freeze like morbid, cautionary signposts in the snow for veterans and newcomers alike.
The body of George Mallory is still there at 8200 metres. It was discovered in 1999 by climbers who hoped to determine whether or not he and his companion, Andrew Irvine, had made it to the top in June 1924.
The rope that once attached him to Irvine was still around his waist, and his hands still clawed at the rock. But the camera that might have proved the two Britons to be the first conquerors of the world's highest mountain was not found. The expedition achieved one aim, though: Mallory was at last accorded the dignity of burial. The body of American climber Francys Arsentiev has yet to be paid the same respect. But if a veteran British climber has his way, it soon will.
In May 1998, Ian Woodall and his then future wife, South African climber Cathy O'Dowd, came across Fran Arsentiev in her last hour. Sacrificing their chance to reach the summit only 300 metres above them, they stayed with her. But there was nothing they could do before moving on except watch her die.
Last week, speaking from her home in Andorra, O'Dowd remembered that day: "It was her movement — her twitching, a spasmodic jerk — that caught my eye, and then the purple of her jacket. She must have been aware of us because she started to speak, but there were just three sentences repeated over and over again: 'Don't leave me', 'Why are you doing this to me?' and 'I'm an American'.
"We recognised who she was from that last sentence. I didn't know her immediately — her face was frost-bitten, but not in the way one thinks. It was a waxy, white and incredibly smooth look, like Sleeping Beauty. It made her look much younger than she was. We had talked to her at Base Camp. She had come into our tent and had tea. She wasn't an obsessive type of climber — she spoke a lot about her son and home.
"She wasn't dead when we left her, although she had ceased to speak. It was getting bitterly cold and we were fearing for our own safety. If you stop moving on Everest you are in serious danger. I thought at first there was a chance for her because she was talking but I knew really that, lying down as she was, there wasn't. I don't think she was talking to us. It was like a stuck record."
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
|
Photos of extreem events are very important and often tell a story that no words can do proper justice to. This is very evident in modern war photojournalism in this country. The dead and wounded are off limits and never shown in their last horrifying and undignified moments. We no longer have the neat rows of mangled corpses wrecked by grapeshot in front of the peach orchard, the chared remains of tankers in North Africa, the stacks of emaciated jews piled high on horse drawn wagons at Dacheau, the human tourch danceing on the end of the flamethrower on Tawara, the bleeding blind Marine reaching twords his buddy from the mudd of Viet Nam, The suspected VC executed by the police chiefs nickle plated S&W.38sp and the piles of dead civilians at Mai Lie. None of those horrible images that drive home the hopless degradadion and brutality of war are to be seen in modern USA journalism. Even a flag draped coffin is off limits. Instead we get fed a steady stream of returning heros, guys rideing on tanks, choppers fireing rockets, REMF brass talking to the press and that most mundane generic shot of artilary fireing from secure fire bases.. there are no images allowed that might shake the readers faith in God and the good ol USA's patriotic duty in wageing war.
I see the photos of the dead on Everest as good journalism and the ony way the futility of freezing to death on some trash covered mountain can be honestly conveyed to the world.... The story of the last phone call home to the wife seems like a sad novel when you read it. The photo of that poor soul abandoned on the mountain strikes home in a way that words can not describe...
Disclaimer. I am a professional photographer who has done a fair bit of freelance news.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
|
It's somewhat a matter of degree Ron. Dano and John were easily retrieved with no risk to anyone else. I wouldn't want anyone to risk life and limb to retieve my remains. If people, because of religious beliefs or cultural norms, want to risk their lives in such ventures that is their perogative and I wish them well.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
|
I was on a rescue that turned into a body retrieval in Washington once where
we had a password system set up* in case the chopper couldn't get in close
enough to the face. We had decided it was too dangerous to lower it, mainly
due to the choss, so we were going to give it the old heave ho. The chopper
pilot was just back from Nam was bored silly so he did the craziest shyte
I've ever seen just to get this body. I was taking cover, by walking to
the far end of the ledge, cause I thought it was a given he was going to
clip the rock with his rotor. It was totally unjustified.
*Because the family was hanging around the base radio. One of the passwords
meant "get those people out of sight and earshot."
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
|
I suppose I agree with the premise of bringing bodies down, but I think it's doubtful in practice. I know the times I've been above 20,000 feet there is no way I could have carried an adult body.
It's fun to slag on climbing Everest but the fact remains that being that high is quite dangerous. It's hard to justify going up there to get a body.
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
|
We're talking about corpses.
I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about corpses -- not the living
Not the living, not the living ... but we're talking about ... corpses
How silly is that?
I know it's important, I honestly do
but we're talking about corpses.
We're talking about corpses, man.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
|
Exactly. I don't get the big deal. Buncha stiffs. So what?
Bring some protein to the Mountains, like Salmon. Well, get on with it, then. None of my beewax, anyway. Do as thou wilt. I don't care.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
|
Ron, nobody's freezing no mice, nohow. If I die in place on a snowy icy peak, that will be the day that I die, as Matt Donahoe used to sing.
Your high attitude will preserve you better at any altitude
than high altitude will preserve you no matter the attitude.
Just FN kidding. There is no joy in recovering bodies. Why go there, they will be taken care of in time by other forces than man. Our expedition-mounters and film-crews will never bother to fund or think about funding such an effort. They have bottom lines and no souls.
The effort is a fool's errand: though we all think we are doing the right thing, think about the waste of effort which may be used better someplace else to benefit the living. I think if a family wants the loved ones' remains they should pay. It was the risk he/she took that the corpse might become fodder for a buncha ghouls. AAARRGhh, mates.
Bump for Largo for the tremendous "subject matter"---thanks, and bump for the removal of the pictures. They were shall we say unappetizing at one extreme, yet I thought of Sibelius (frozen wastes of Finlandia).
How do the Inuit dispose of their dead, Mr. Shea? Nice to hear you after these decades.
I would like to also say that it is pointless to consider sending even the willing to places like the roofs of the world. (You think there is just the one?--I don't) for the purpose of recovering bodies. Sorry, Ron.
And you can't really say how the mountains feel, now, can you? I know you are a salty old hard man, but you have soul. I honor your intentions in suggesting such a ghastly undertaking: by so doing, you make mock of the idea. It's not hard to laugh at death. It is a natural psychic defense.
We climbers learn to live with gruesome things, and yet we seem to revel in the details, and stories make their way through the pubs and around the fires. You all know the grisly story of closing down the LA Chimney for a year. There was a good, decent young man involved whose body could not be reclaimed. The story went round Camp 4 for years that Roper went up to the base of the LA Chimney (Dave B's version and others' also) and recovered a boot with the bone sticking out and it sat on Roper's coffee table. In Camp 4, Roper tells it much differently, and I believe his version, though there is the cachet of horror in Dave's story which we all love to tell. We are dark side/light side. Human. And Dave, chatterbox, also told us of the memorial taco feed.
Which brings me to one of the early SAR specialists in Camp 4, a decent man and one hell of an animal on a climb. Kim Schmitz, when we were assigned to search for a body (which we all knew it was due to the length of time involved in reporting this missing hiker), would not let anyone go view the corpse. He was, of course, the man in charge of our party of four or five. The hiker was a doctor from Tahoe and friends with Kim. Kim chose to honor his pal by this. There was also, I feel, the desire to shield us from the horrible injuries the man must have incurred rolling down granite slabs. Just a year or two earlier Kim's faithful sidekick had taken the dirt nap in what is probably Yosemite Valley's most well-known rappel accident. Kim's gesture should be noted. We left the body for extraction the next morning. Donahoe was elected to fly in on the helo for the job. I am glad I missed out on that flight.
I spoke with Kim the season the rescue sites were assigned. I was in one, though no one needed my help that fall. He ha been "put in charge." (Don't ask me about the politics, where was JB, Werner, it's irrelevant) I attempted to congratulate him, saying that I must be like some dream come true and he kinda split his sides at that. I understand. I've had a long time to think on it. Such a n00b. Stars in my eyes, sawdust in the brain.
ghastly: inspiring shock, revulsion, or horror by or as if by suggesting death; terrifying. Suggestive of or resembling ghosts ("ghasts").
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
|
So the photos of the dead are removed and we go back to our romantic whitewash of reality..........
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
|
Maybe they Can't hang with the Reality. You CAN die up there....Yeah. That's so.
So? Let the chips fall where they may. Nobody's special. Or we ALL are.
The stiffs have lessons for you.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
|
It would make your cleanup easier, too. Maybe put a bounty on them.
Folk seem to like those. Best stiff brings a good price. Pictures are extra.
|
|
LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
|
just thinking about this ... of the whole of the human species historically and it's totally of individuals..there are 7 billion living individuals on the planet now in a current life cycle. historically there are billions more dead. WHERE did they go? interesting thought to me and the subject of my next meditation
|
|
Captain...or Skully
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
|
We return to the Earth, man. Whether one acknowledges it or not. It ALL comes back. Nobody seems to mind, except for the Humans.
Silly humans.
|
|
mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
|
The big bucks are to be made in Taco Wagons,obviously.
The Corpsicle ride will operate thus: Korean, Indian, Swiss, take your choice of available nationality for only $25k--$5k discounts if you can prove blood relation to the corpse. I'm no expert, so where should the attraction launch from and where is it's destination?
Both the Corpsicle Ride and the Taco Wagon are to be insured heavily!
I mean, if there is a way to make corpse reduction feasible, let's figure out how to pay for it first. But keep Disney out of it. For mice sake.
|
|
hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
|
I had a buddy who died on Longs Peak. He had all of the potential in the world: Smart, funny, great climber; as in elite Boulder Colo. style. He went up on the Diamond with very little gear and he and his buddy got caught high in a storm and he survived the night but not the descent. I was told that his face showed that he understood that it was all up for him and the expression evoked the sadness of what was lost.
Something to think about before you laugh at those who never came home
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
|
the least one could do is outfit each corpse with Da Brim
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
May 14, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
|
See, now that the photos are gone you all make stupid jokes. If their frozen remains were looking at you preserved in light captured in silver emulsion it was not quite so funny........
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!