Corpses on Mountains

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Messages 1 - 141 of total 141 in this topic
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Original Post - May 13, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
I was reading a chilling account of a team that got caught in a savage storm high on an 8,000 meter peak and had to take refuge in a 30 year old tent in which two corpses were slumbering, perfectly preserved and fully clothed. I wasn't aware of the hideous amount of bodies strewn across these mountains in plain sight (over 200 on Everest). Apparently the tent/corpse episode is not even that unusual.

Glad I was a rock climber.

martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
May 13, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
gruesome
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 13, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Gag.

Or is it?
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 13, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
Ya gotta die somewhere. Maybe that'll inspire the living that pass by to persevere.....
I dunno.
Johnny K.

climber
May 13, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
There are photos of corpses laying in plain sight on Everest. Not that those peoples situations arent sad or less grime. The real haunting situations are the corpses frozen stuck in middle of the technical routes on steep peaks(frozen on small ledges, or frozen hanging on rappel) I recall reading a few alpine journal reports on the situations.


"**Annapurna (8,091 m)
In total, only 130 climbers have summited Annapurna, while 53 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 41%.
Nanga Parbat (8,125m)
216 climbers have summited Nanga Parbat and 61 have died. The overall fatality rate thus 28.24%.
K2 (8,611 m)
Fewer than 200 climbers have summited the world's second highest peak – 198 total. 53 have died. K2's overall fatality rate is 26.77%. **


Kangchenjunga (8,586 m)
To date, only 185 climbers have summited Kangchenjunga and 40 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus about 22%.
Manaslu (8,163 m)
To date, 240 climbers have summited Manaslu and 52 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 21.67%.
Dhaulagiri (8,167 m)
To date, 313 climbers have summited Dhaulagiri and 56 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 18%.
Makalu (8,485 m)
To date, 206 climbers have summited Makalu and 22 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus about 11%.
Gasherbrum I (8,080m)
Since 1958, only 195 climbers have summited Gasherbrum I and 21 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 10.77%.
Shisha Pangma (8,027m)
To date, 201 climbers have summited Shisha Pangma and 19 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus about 9.5%.
Everest (8,848m)
Today, Everest has hosted close to 2,000 successful summits. 179 people have perished giving a fatality rate of 9.3%.
Broad Peak (8,051 m)
A mere 255 climbers have summited Broad Peak and 18 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 7%.
Lhotse (8,516 m)
To date, 243 climbers have summited Lhotse and 11 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus about 4%.
Gasherbrum II (8,034 m)
As for GII, a total of 650 climbers have summited the peak and 17 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 2.62%.
Cho Oyu (8,188 m)
To date, about 1,400 climbers have summited Cho Oyu and 35 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 2.5%,

Other statistics:

Smoking:
Each year, 440,000 people die of diseases causes by smoking or another form of tobacco use, that’s about 20% of all deaths in the United States.

Junk food & doing nothing:
Each year, 300,000 people die of poor diet and physical inactivity, that's about 14% of all deaths in the United States, second only to tobacco use. Nearly 59 million adults are obese in US, and the percentage of young people who are overweight has more than doubled in the last 20 years. Fifteen percent of Americans aged 6–19 years are overweight.

Traffic accidents:
Each year nearly 5,000 Americans die in truck crashes. In 1995, 98% of the people killed in two-vehicle crashes involving passenger cars and big trucks were occupants of the passenger vehicles.

Conclusion:
Although these stats are not an exact science and surrounded by a lot of if's and but's, they do offer hints. Surviving on KFC and not working out kills 20% of Americans. Summiting Everest kills 9.3% of climbers."

http://www.mounteverest.net/story/stories/EvrstvsBigMa-killrstatistisMar22004.shtml
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 13, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
Statewide in California, four people and a horse and the elephant at the Riverside Zoo died in the time it took to read the last post.

Boring...

No, serious as my last heart problem, that's quite a lot of dead guys.

You ought to check out Off the Walls, if you haven't.

lol from Merced, center of the State, or close enough



edit: Thanks for "bringing up" yet more (finish yer own metaphor here), Largo...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 13, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
Eventually the corpses will become biohazards.

This could put the mountains off limits.


By then, however, everything will have been done.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 13, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
> In total, only 130 climbers have summited Annapurna, while 53 have died. The overall fatality rate is thus 41%.

I would call this a "fatality to summit ratio", not a "fatality rate".
Fatality rate should be like "mortality rate", where the denominator is the number of people at risk - the number of people who attempted the mountain.
Instead of the number who summited.
And if you had really good data, mortality rate by age or skill level for each peak.

I think they are trying to get at the relationship between difficulty of summiting the peak and mortality rate,
but I'm not sure this will work, because you also want to control for skill of the climbers.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 13, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
I used a dirty diaper to wipe my MTB chain off today...Maybe not the same as sharing a tent with peoplesicles...RJ
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Casper the Friendly Ghost Town!
May 13, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
Looks like somebody grabbed them a pair of presumably nice mountaineering boots from the first poor soul...
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Sandy Hill, who has done the Seven Summits gig, and who lives right down the street from me, said that striping off your clothes is typical for people suffering from cerebral edema. Apparently some of these people look pretty much like they always did, just bone white from the elements, like ivory statues. Pity they can't be taken down off the hill but there's no money or glory in body recoveries so there so lie, forever. It's a lonely thought, but maybe not.

JL
Lightenin'

climber
Muleshoeville
May 13, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
Kinda brings you up short, don't it - at least for me it does.

I'm not sure how I would react to a needed (and thankfully found) shelter in a life-threatening storm with two dead bodies lying there. I think I would find that hard, but I am saying that at sea level. Up there, under extreme duress, it would be different.

Is being a rock climber really all that different? Granted, you have much more experience than me and we don't see bodies strewn across the crags, but there are many deaths that occur. I am thinking about the young woman who died last weekend at the Gunks. Everyone says that is an accident that never should have happened, but it did. Climbing - rock, alpine, Himalayan - whatever the form, is pretty dangerous. Heck, there have been two deaths in New Hampshire already this year in Tuckerman's Ravine that "never should have happened," but did.

I wonder (this is a question, not a statement) how much our cavalier attitude towards climbing contributes to this? We think it just fine to drink heavily and smoke all kinds of weed and then go climbing - it's a tradition, after all. I am not against drinking or weed, per se, but I do wonder how much this belittles the sport and makes it seem ... so, lackadaisical and so accessible. I mean, after all, look at the youtube video where Jason Kruk was so hung over from a drinking bout that he shits his pants! And then they rename the climb (Boogie 'til you Poop)! How serious is climbing if that is what the best in the sport do? Is it any wonder then that everyone thinks they can do it and there are so many deaths in this sport?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 13, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
They should make all those people trying to buy the summit of Everest take a good look at lots of photos like that.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 13, 2012 - 09:23pm PT
We have our share of frozen corpses here in the low mountains.

This guy had only been here a week.


He picked an especially bad week to hike Old Hwy 38. The fatality-to-summit ratio that week was 50%.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 13, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
Ron A--Timex takes a licking and keeps ticking even after your ticker quits ticking.

and to the Pitonron (sounds like a cool video game)--

If the mountains were put off limits then what would the poor Sherpa do? I'm sure he could bear the loss, some way. But that rice bowl's bone dry if there is a "freeze" on climbing.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 13, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
long after the corpses are gone or buried the ghosts remain.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 13, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Ron...state your source...? RJ
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 13, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
heh heh heh..

Pissed off a few sherpa's


paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 13, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Those dead bodies become the well placed vanitas' and momento mori's that only serve to enhance the experience and adventure the human mind seeks. The greatest willingness to risk results is the finest experience... maybe? The nearness of death demonstrates the sweetness of life... probably?
Matt

Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
May 13, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
"Glad I was a rockclimber"

Seriously.
LuckyNeck

Trad climber
the basement of Lou's Tavern
May 13, 2012 - 10:54pm PT
Ya gotta die somewhere.

Ain't it the truth...
Studly

Trad climber
WA
May 13, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
There are a number of people frozen in the ice on Mt. Hood and Rainier.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 14, 2012 - 12:24am PT
The Sherpas believe that the bodies desecrate the mountain, especially lying out in the
open like that. Some have suggested that when they get most of the trash off the
mountain which various eco-expeditions work on every year, then the next stage will be
to bring the bodies down.
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 12:31am PT
Well, it's Their Mountains. It's all good.
I do, however, reserve the right to leave my hulking remains on whichever of my mountains as I desire. Or can still reach. Whichever(again?)Pick one from either category.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 14, 2012 - 12:39am PT
When the time comes, I've always thought the best thing to do with me is to simply leave me where I died.

Damn few places on this planet where that is possible.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2012 - 01:06am PT
So am I gonna roast for bootying? Who knew re-cycling would get to be the rage?
I figured 'stuff' didn't have karma. At least I never fought another for a
dude's boots like those crazy Brits.
Sheik aka JD

Trad climber
May 14, 2012 - 01:18am PT
Right now I have a decomposing deer carcass at the bottom of my steep, overgrown backyard. Two days ago we wondered why turkey vultures were circling. Yesterday morning we had a toddler birthday with 20+ little ones running around the front yard; toward evening there was a faint smell in the neighborhood; I joked about taking the 5+ year olds on an excursion to find the critter. Now the whole neighborhood reeks of a weird garbage smell. My back neighbor just knocked on my door, saying there was a decomposing deer...why did the friggin deer have to crawl to my side of the property line...
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 14, 2012 - 03:34am PT
He did that without using Toad gas. Solo.

That tooth might work like the Kandy korn bashie if you wired it up.

Introducing "The chopper."

Check ST's gear reviews.

Find out the easy way to make your own personal rack of choppers.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
May 14, 2012 - 03:40am PT
The photos aren't necessary. Give a little respect to the dead.
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
May 14, 2012 - 09:00am PT
did you ever read about the princess
who was climbing glass mountain
with beta and chicken bones
supplied her by mountain sages
that she met en route to her peak?

she got to within one step of the
summit (and her prince) and ran out
of chicken bones that she was using
to build her etrier.

instead of retreating she
broke off the last digit of her
finger and thus completed her ladder
and summitted.

it just so happened that
the prince was beneath enchantment
and in order to break the spell,
a princess had to use part of her
own body to reach him.

funkin eh we're all under
the spell of life
and some people give all their
bones and spirt too
the achieve brief freedoms.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
May 14, 2012 - 09:27am PT
Nobody ever thinks about their high altitude Zombie plan.


No kidding!



steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 09:29am PT
In April 1980 three of us were in AK for the Cassin. On descent from the summit we passed a German husband and wife frozen in place only hours before at the lunch rocks just above Denali Pass. We continued down the pass in a total whiteout and only made it in the waning light because we could just barely see from wand to wand. We got to the iglooplex at 17K' and could not find our preplaced camp. After wandering around for what seemed like hours we finally came across a huge snow cave that was home and the death house to five Koreans who perished. In the cave was frozen puke and blood and feces along with a huge supply of food and fuel. At the time it was the highest heli operation ever on Denali. The rangers had just winched them off that day. They all died in the snowcave. Finding that cave saved our lives, though it was a grim reminder of the thin margin one has in Alaskan storms at altitude. On the north side of Everest in 1986 a few of us spent three days with the frozen body of a sherpa killed in a serac avalanche descending from the North Col. We wanted to give him a proper Bhuddist burial and had to wait for the yaks to bring enough wood for the funeral pyre. The Lamas propped him in a sitting position in a tent as though he was still alive and went about their routines as usual.
bob

climber
May 14, 2012 - 09:35am PT
Seems like a good zombie flick could be made with corpses rising from the mountains and taking out climbers.................
Just a thought.

Bob j.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 14, 2012 - 09:36am PT
''in the eighteenth century the snowy and inaccessible peaks of the alps
were believed to be home to dragons and other fantastical monsters.
this attitude changed during the enlightment period when scientific
gentlemen and natural philosophers dragged their barometers
and theodolites, roast fowl,and gallons of good wine and reluctant servants onto the vigin heights.
however it was the arrival of the early british explorers which
turned mountaineeering into an obsession, an art form and a competitive
sport. the dragons were gradually slain one by one''


steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 10:13am PT
Bruce you are right about the Koreans. They booted it straight from Kahiltna base to the Iglooplex at 17. All snuffed by alitude maladies of one sort or another.
Banquo

climber
Amerricka
May 14, 2012 - 10:18am PT
I believe that first photo is Peter Boardman (or perhaps Joe Tasker). It always bothers me to see it. I recall following their exploits and reading their books.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
May 14, 2012 - 10:20am PT
". . . it was the arrival of the early british explorers which
turned mountaineeering into an obsession, an art form and a competitive
sport. the dragons were gradually slain one by one"

That's a great quote, Stewart.
steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Banquo, Boardman and Tasker are still on the East Ridge high above the Kangshung Face.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
May 14, 2012 - 10:26am PT
Seriously.. Respect to those who die in pursuit of dreams.

Not a high altitude story, but a few years back my parents came across a bleached skeleton out in a remote desert canyon near my father's house in Baja. He was way the hell out in the middle of nowhere. Impossible to know his story, but his wallet had American dollars. His ID had disintegrated to dust so there was no clue to his identity. How he got there is a mystery. If he was a tourist it's odd no one reported him missing. Lonely death out there. RIP dude.


.
.
.
.
.



OK- Now back to the zombies. I think this can double duty as a global warming/folly of mankind e-ffing up the planet type of deal, as greenhouse gasses heat things up enough to thaw the corpses.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Quite an educational thread....I had no idea alpine climbing was so dangerous.
steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 10:53am PT
Jim, is there a photo of the Haderer boot with the tib fib sticking out? When in Kitzbhuel in 78 I had a pair made. I did not realize at the time that if I was lost in the mts., I could be identified by the serial number on my boots. Heh heh
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 10:56am PT
I have a photo I took of the remains of Toni Egger with his fib/tib sticking out of a boot- could well be a Haderer, never looked closely.

There is some controversy about the appropriateness of taking and distributing photos of corpses. As an atheist I don't revere corporeal remains but I wonder about the effect on loved ones.
steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 11:00am PT
I remember the photo. I thought it was a Haderer with a serial number and that is how you confirmed it was Egger. Guess my memory is failing... Good point on the distribution of death photos. Although in my limited experience with Asian/Bhudddist culture, once dead and the soul is gone the body is just an inert thing. How else could the deceased's loved ones watch a celestial burial? I think it is an occidental thing, the sacred remains...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 11:07am PT
Maybe you're right, I remember the boot had a made in Austria label.
E

Social climber
Tujunga CA.
May 14, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
the first body I do believe is ray genet. There were two bodys in that place close to the south summit of everest. the other one was a swiss woman named Hannalore Smatze? She had long hair that blew in the wind and would scare the crap outta people on summit day when they would come around the corner. that one blew away in the wind.
On our Manaslu climb in 99 at 7500 meters there were at least 3 bodys in plain sight. 2 skeletons were hugging each other on an icy ledge. The high altitude suits had been shredded in the wind and had become long streamers of bleached out nylon hanging off the wrist and ankle bones. kinda like pirates of the carribean. There was another body right in the trail-boots hanging out of the ice crampons still on-yikes

E
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
I agree with Tami. It bothers me more now knowing that first picture is of a friend.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 12:37pm PT
I also wondered about the appropriateness of posting those pics but I am a believer in learning what it is I am talking about - like the actual, gritty facts of it, not the sanitized version, where "respect" can be used to mask denial. What's more, papering public forums with ghoulish photos of the dead is one thing; coming to grips with what is truly happening in my own sport, to people I either know or have read about, is another.

But I still wonder if taking those pics down might be the right and gracious thing to do. I'll defer to others on this one.

PS: Just read Tami's post. The pics are down.

JL
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
May 14, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
We climbers, what a morbidly humorous lot we are. Of course, I'd never say that to anyone except this crowd, (except my wife who knows what a knucklehead I am already and has accepted that part of me!).

Underneath the humor though, lies a deep respect for the dead (in most cases) when it comes to climbers (unless you are some kind of sociopath). Humor can be a way of processing death and be quite healing (remember lots of laughs, not mean-spirited as at,post-funeral gatherings of my family). As climbers, we are much closer to it (death) than society in general is today. Though it was not long ago that something like having a baby or getting a simple infection or cold often killed many.

Just my opinion, but I think climbers are healthier in general being privy to one the guarantees of life. We are all going to face and deal with it, one way or another, eventually.

We all have expiration dates, we just don't know when.

Reminded of the line from the Eiger Sanction, "Climber's always bring back their dead." Sounds better with a heavy German accent and a scowling Clint Eastwood in the frame.

Eric
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
May 14, 2012 - 12:50pm PT
Word to what Tammy wrote above.

As a writer and lover of good storytelling, I know that the words, in this case, can be more powerful and respectful than the images.

Interesting that Largo and Tami are great storytellers.

Eric
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
My only reason for referring to the pics is that with 200! corpses on Everest, you'd have to almost stumble over the bodies and this seems like a kind of dirty little secret that gets hushed over for the more glorious summit accounts. Meanwhile people with actual lives are dropping like flies, forever on display in their open casket. That, I believe, is something that needs to be talked about - not as ghoul fodder, but in terms of who that person was and what was their story. Otherwise it's like shutting a crazy Uncle up in the attic and calling that decorum.

In other words, these mountain are in some cases little more than open graveyards. What are your're thoughts about that? I know if El Capitan had fifty or so corpses on it people would be talking about it like all get out.

JL
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 14, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
I still think novices should be made to view those photos before trying to buy Everest.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
I disagree Ron. Novices trying to buy Everest should only be required to do it before they breed.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 14, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Novices trying to buy Everest should only be required to do it before they breed

First it is a safety issue, now it is birth control!
steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Had that been a white guy on Everest N Ridge in 86', we would have pitched him in a cravasse. Burial at sea so to speak. Tibetan bhuddists however must be given a proper burial. I've been to Everest north and south sides. The south is like Jellystone Park. Trekkers walk all the way to base camp just to gawk at the climbers some almost hoping for an incident. Sort of like some spectators at a car race hoping for a pileup. The north side is very different no where near the extravaganza the south is. As high as I got, 8000m, I saw no bodies. And we were looking. That was a long time ago in 86'. Like I said, I think it is an occidental thing. The sherpas seem to regard the landscape the same with no more reaction to a body than a spent O's cylinder.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 14, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
So,... no parents on Everest now?



Steve Shea, did you carry occidental insurance?
steve shea

climber
May 14, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Piton Ron, ah the humor. Could not afford ins, kept my digits crossed and went to several pujas.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
I wasn't aware that a heli could go all the way to 29,000 feet. Now it's just a matter of raising the money and getting a team (I doubt anyone would go for free) to start at the top and rig the corpses with short ropes/slings and have a chopper haul them off in numbers, maybe 4-5 at a time if the pay load ain't too high.

You'd probably have to keep the ship and revolving teams up there for a month but with the funding and the will I'm sure the mountain could be cleaned up. Seems like the right thing to do. In he military it's a code of honor to never leave a comrade behind.

JL
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
In the military it's a code of honor to never leave a comrade behind.

Sadly, climbers aren't that high-minded. As we have seen for many years it
has been the norm to leave everything behind.


It just occurred to me that I have at least three friend's bodies still up there.
No wonder I've never wanted to go there.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
I actually do believe that this is a largely possible endeavor. I'm guessing that most of the climbers/bodies are somewhat near the normal climbing route, and that those killed by falls and swept off by avalanches might be at hard to get to spots. But surely a majority are pretty much right there. Logistics might be tricky, and the corpses would probably have to be bagged lest parts went flying (whoops!) but if we can land a robotic on Mars, this is a sure thing.

But who would ever be able to raise the coin? That's a hard sell.

JL
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 14, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
I dunno about a helicopter recovery. That helicopter weighed about as much as a bucket seat in an F1 car. It'd be easier to attach balloons with GPS locators to the corpses and let the winds carry them away, then recover them sub 8000m. The Sherpa's would easily be able to haul up balloons and tanks to fill them. I mean come on, haven't you seen the movie Up!? 26,350 balloons later you can lift your 4 bedroom, 2 1/2 bath townhouse from the city.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
I remember in the mid 70's when a large party led by Fava and accompanied by a priest came thru our campsite on the way to the Torre Cirque. They were looking for two climbers, long dead, in order to give them a decent Christian burial. They spent long, fruitless hours under a meanicing hanging glacier before giving up. I could never, still can't, understand risking lives in such an endeavor. There is no better resting place for an alpinist than where his/her last adventure came to an end.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
So be it....humans have strong belief systems, many of which, I cannot fathom. I would never get in the way of such efforts, neither would I in any way support them- to each his own
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
I'm with Jim on that. If someone runs across my mouldering remains, I'd rather they let 'em lie.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
Lest we forget, these were people once. Our friends and comrades.



Sleeping Beauty

by Neil Tweedie
May 6, 2007

EVEREST has many ways of punishing the overconfident and the unwary. It can freeze its victims to death in a sudden, roaring storm, or kill them quietly at night, using the seductive warmth of hypothermia to carry them away in their sleep. It can suffocate painfully with its thin air just as the summit beckons, or inter bodies forever under avalanches of snow and rock. And if none of these, there is always the chance of a collapsing ice bridge and a hidden, waiting crevasse.

Many of the climbers who perish touching the roof of the world are never seen again, but some simply lie there in the open year after year, preserved almost perfectly in deep freeze like morbid, cautionary signposts in the snow for veterans and newcomers alike.

The body of George Mallory is still there at 8200 metres. It was discovered in 1999 by climbers who hoped to determine whether or not he and his companion, Andrew Irvine, had made it to the top in June 1924.

The rope that once attached him to Irvine was still around his waist, and his hands still clawed at the rock. But the camera that might have proved the two Britons to be the first conquerors of the world's highest mountain was not found. The expedition achieved one aim, though: Mallory was at last accorded the dignity of burial. The body of American climber Francys Arsentiev has yet to be paid the same respect. But if a veteran British climber has his way, it soon will.

In May 1998, Ian Woodall and his then future wife, South African climber Cathy O'Dowd, came across Fran Arsentiev in her last hour. Sacrificing their chance to reach the summit only 300 metres above them, they stayed with her. But there was nothing they could do before moving on except watch her die.

Last week, speaking from her home in Andorra, O'Dowd remembered that day: "It was her movement — her twitching, a spasmodic jerk — that caught my eye, and then the purple of her jacket. She must have been aware of us because she started to speak, but there were just three sentences repeated over and over again: 'Don't leave me', 'Why are you doing this to me?' and 'I'm an American'.

"We recognised who she was from that last sentence. I didn't know her immediately — her face was frost-bitten, but not in the way one thinks. It was a waxy, white and incredibly smooth look, like Sleeping Beauty. It made her look much younger than she was. We had talked to her at Base Camp. She had come into our tent and had tea. She wasn't an obsessive type of climber — she spoke a lot about her son and home.

"She wasn't dead when we left her, although she had ceased to speak. It was getting bitterly cold and we were fearing for our own safety. If you stop moving on Everest you are in serious danger. I thought at first there was a chance for her because she was talking but I knew really that, lying down as she was, there wasn't. I don't think she was talking to us. It was like a stuck record."

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 14, 2012 - 06:58pm PT
Photos of extreem events are very important and often tell a story that no words can do proper justice to. This is very evident in modern war photojournalism in this country. The dead and wounded are off limits and never shown in their last horrifying and undignified moments. We no longer have the neat rows of mangled corpses wrecked by grapeshot in front of the peach orchard, the chared remains of tankers in North Africa, the stacks of emaciated jews piled high on horse drawn wagons at Dacheau, the human tourch danceing on the end of the flamethrower on Tawara, the bleeding blind Marine reaching twords his buddy from the mudd of Viet Nam, The suspected VC executed by the police chiefs nickle plated S&W.38sp and the piles of dead civilians at Mai Lie. None of those horrible images that drive home the hopless degradadion and brutality of war are to be seen in modern USA journalism. Even a flag draped coffin is off limits. Instead we get fed a steady stream of returning heros, guys rideing on tanks, choppers fireing rockets, REMF brass talking to the press and that most mundane generic shot of artilary fireing from secure fire bases.. there are no images allowed that might shake the readers faith in God and the good ol USA's patriotic duty in wageing war.

I see the photos of the dead on Everest as good journalism and the ony way the futility of freezing to death on some trash covered mountain can be honestly conveyed to the world.... The story of the last phone call home to the wife seems like a sad novel when you read it. The photo of that poor soul abandoned on the mountain strikes home in a way that words can not describe...

Disclaimer. I am a professional photographer who has done a fair bit of freelance news.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 14, 2012 - 06:59pm PT
It's somewhat a matter of degree Ron. Dano and John were easily retrieved with no risk to anyone else. I wouldn't want anyone to risk life and limb to retieve my remains. If people, because of religious beliefs or cultural norms, want to risk their lives in such ventures that is their perogative and I wish them well.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
I was on a rescue that turned into a body retrieval in Washington once where
we had a password system set up* in case the chopper couldn't get in close
enough to the face. We had decided it was too dangerous to lower it, mainly
due to the choss, so we were going to give it the old heave ho. The chopper
pilot was just back from Nam was bored silly so he did the craziest shyte
I've ever seen just to get this body. I was taking cover, by walking to
the far end of the ledge, cause I thought it was a given he was going to
clip the rock with his rotor. It was totally unjustified.

*Because the family was hanging around the base radio. One of the passwords
meant "get those people out of sight and earshot."
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
May 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
I suppose I agree with the premise of bringing bodies down, but I think it's doubtful in practice. I know the times I've been above 20,000 feet there is no way I could have carried an adult body.

It's fun to slag on climbing Everest but the fact remains that being that high is quite dangerous. It's hard to justify going up there to get a body.



ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
We're talking about corpses.
I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about corpses -- not the living
Not the living, not the living ... but we're talking about ... corpses

How silly is that?

I know it's important, I honestly do
but we're talking about corpses.

We're talking about corpses, man.
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
Exactly. I don't get the big deal. Buncha stiffs. So what?
Bring some protein to the Mountains, like Salmon. Well, get on with it, then. None of my beewax, anyway. Do as thou wilt. I don't care.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 14, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
Ron, nobody's freezing no mice, nohow. If I die in place on a snowy icy peak, that will be the day that I die, as Matt Donahoe used to sing.

Your high attitude will preserve you better at any altitude

than high altitude will preserve you no matter the attitude.


Just FN kidding. There is no joy in recovering bodies. Why go there, they will be taken care of in time by other forces than man. Our expedition-mounters and film-crews will never bother to fund or think about funding such an effort. They have bottom lines and no souls.

The effort is a fool's errand: though we all think we are doing the right thing, think about the waste of effort which may be used better someplace else to benefit the living. I think if a family wants the loved ones' remains they should pay. It was the risk he/she took that the corpse might become fodder for a buncha ghouls. AAARRGhh, mates.

Bump for Largo for the tremendous "subject matter"---thanks, and bump for the removal of the pictures. They were shall we say unappetizing at one extreme, yet I thought of Sibelius (frozen wastes of Finlandia).

How do the Inuit dispose of their dead, Mr. Shea? Nice to hear you after these decades.

I would like to also say that it is pointless to consider sending even the willing to places like the roofs of the world. (You think there is just the one?--I don't) for the purpose of recovering bodies. Sorry, Ron.

And you can't really say how the mountains feel, now, can you? I know you are a salty old hard man, but you have soul. I honor your intentions in suggesting such a ghastly undertaking: by so doing, you make mock of the idea. It's not hard to laugh at death. It is a natural psychic defense.

We climbers learn to live with gruesome things, and yet we seem to revel in the details, and stories make their way through the pubs and around the fires. You all know the grisly story of closing down the LA Chimney for a year. There was a good, decent young man involved whose body could not be reclaimed. The story went round Camp 4 for years that Roper went up to the base of the LA Chimney (Dave B's version and others' also) and recovered a boot with the bone sticking out and it sat on Roper's coffee table. In Camp 4, Roper tells it much differently, and I believe his version, though there is the cachet of horror in Dave's story which we all love to tell. We are dark side/light side. Human. And Dave, chatterbox, also told us of the memorial taco feed.

Which brings me to one of the early SAR specialists in Camp 4, a decent man and one hell of an animal on a climb. Kim Schmitz, when we were assigned to search for a body (which we all knew it was due to the length of time involved in reporting this missing hiker), would not let anyone go view the corpse. He was, of course, the man in charge of our party of four or five. The hiker was a doctor from Tahoe and friends with Kim. Kim chose to honor his pal by this. There was also, I feel, the desire to shield us from the horrible injuries the man must have incurred rolling down granite slabs. Just a year or two earlier Kim's faithful sidekick had taken the dirt nap in what is probably Yosemite Valley's most well-known rappel accident. Kim's gesture should be noted. We left the body for extraction the next morning. Donahoe was elected to fly in on the helo for the job. I am glad I missed out on that flight.

I spoke with Kim the season the rescue sites were assigned. I was in one, though no one needed my help that fall. He ha been "put in charge." (Don't ask me about the politics, where was JB, Werner, it's irrelevant) I attempted to congratulate him, saying that I must be like some dream come true and he kinda split his sides at that. I understand. I've had a long time to think on it. Such a n00b. Stars in my eyes, sawdust in the brain.

ghastly: inspiring shock, revulsion, or horror by or as if by suggesting death; terrifying. Suggestive of or resembling ghosts ("ghasts").
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 14, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
So the photos of the dead are removed and we go back to our romantic whitewash of reality..........
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
Maybe they Can't hang with the Reality. You CAN die up there....Yeah. That's so.
So? Let the chips fall where they may. Nobody's special. Or we ALL are.
The stiffs have lessons for you.
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 09:21pm PT
It would make your cleanup easier, too. Maybe put a bounty on them.
Folk seem to like those. Best stiff brings a good price. Pictures are extra.
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
May 14, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
just thinking about this ... of the whole of the human species historically and it's totally of individuals..there are 7 billion living individuals on the planet now in a current life cycle. historically there are billions more dead. WHERE did they go? interesting thought to me and the subject of my next meditation
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
We return to the Earth, man. Whether one acknowledges it or not. It ALL comes back. Nobody seems to mind, except for the Humans.
Silly humans.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 14, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
The big bucks are to be made in Taco Wagons,obviously.

The Corpsicle ride will operate thus: Korean, Indian, Swiss, take your choice of available nationality for only $25k--$5k discounts if you can prove blood relation to the corpse. I'm no expert, so where should the attraction launch from and where is it's destination?

Both the Corpsicle Ride and the Taco Wagon are to be insured heavily!

I mean, if there is a way to make corpse reduction feasible, let's figure out how to pay for it first. But keep Disney out of it. For mice sake.

hobo_dan

Social climber
Minnesota
May 14, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
I had a buddy who died on Longs Peak. He had all of the potential in the world: Smart, funny, great climber; as in elite Boulder Colo. style. He went up on the Diamond with very little gear and he and his buddy got caught high in a storm and he survived the night but not the descent. I was told that his face showed that he understood that it was all up for him and the expression evoked the sadness of what was lost.
Something to think about before you laugh at those who never came home
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 14, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
the least one could do is outfit each corpse with Da Brim
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 14, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
See, now that the photos are gone you all make stupid jokes. If their frozen remains were looking at you preserved in light captured in silver emulsion it was not quite so funny........
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 14, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
dark humor when doing the rescue or recovery is normal. A really stark photo sometimes elicits a more respectfull response from the general public.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 14, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
I play this mostly Dm G with Am thrown in the chorus. sometimes capo up to 2 cause the fiddle players like to jam in Em.

I am a poor wayfaring stranger
Travelling through this world of woe
There is no sickness, toil or danger
In that fair land to which I go

I'm going home
To see my mother
I'm going home
No more to roam
I am just going over Jordan
I am just going over home

I know dark clouds will hover on me,
I know my pathway is rough and steep
Golden fields lie down before me
Where weary eyes no more will weep
I'm going home to see my father
I'm going home no more to roam
I am just going over Jordan
I am just going over home

I'll soon be free from earthy trial
This form will rest beneath the sun
I'll drop the cross of self-denial
And enter in that home with God
I'm going home to see my savior
I'm going home no more to roam
I am just going over Jordan
I am just going over home
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 14, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
Death is normal. Why does that suck?
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 14, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
it is not everyone who takes pleasure in climbing mountains which reach
the clouds. and indeed if you have ever been at those heights,the
longing to return and breath the thin high air drives one to leave a
comfortable life and make a habit out of it. the risks are worth it.
your brain is dying on the freeway.

jstan

climber
May 15, 2012 - 12:25am PT


Initial work on the Sikorsky "sky-crane" helicopters began in 1958 with the piston-engined Sikorsky S-60.
The first flight of the turboshaft-powered S-64 Skycrane was May 9, 1962,[2] with the U.S. Army eventually purchasing 105, designating them CH-54. Used in Vietnam for transport and downed-aircraft retrieval, it was highly successful, thanks to the 'adaptable' nature of the module system first conceived by General James M. Gavin in his book Airborne Warfare in 1947. Early pods could not carry troops and external sling-loads at the same time. Advanced pods for the CH-54 could carry troops and cargo underslung at the same time but were not purchased. The Skycrane can not only hold its cargo up and tight against its center spine to lessen drag and eliminate the pendulum effect when flying forward, it can winch vehicles up and down from a hovering position, so the helicopter itself did not need to land. Due to budget cuts the Heavy Lift Helicopter (HLH) program was cancelled and the CH-54s not upgraded with larger engines. The Boeing CH-47 Chinook gradually supplemented it in combat and eventually replaced it in Regular Army aviation units, although CH-54 Skycranes remained in Army National Guard service until the early 1990s. The Soviet Union also created much larger crane helicopters with a similar skeletal design.
A CH-54B holds the record for highest level flight altitude:



36,122 feet


(11,010 m) - piloted by James K. Church on 4 Nov 1971 in USA.[3]

End quote:
In single day sallies with no substantial climbing required of support personnel, a skycrane could lower personnel and cargo slings at collection points. Several parties could be put on site in one day and be removed the same day. The skycrane might return to each collection point, when ready, carry the now loaded sling out at the same altitude dropping it over an designated central collection area. This will avoid repeated climbing to altitude.

The first step is to assemble data and choose the most efficient places at which to insert collection personnel.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 15, 2012 - 01:09am PT
C'mon you guys, let's have a little esprit de corpse, eh?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 15, 2012 - 01:17am PT
Do you have to be alive to exercise you AAC rescue insurance?
sheepdog

Trad climber
just over the hill
May 15, 2012 - 01:31am PT
Remember me as you pass by,
As you are now, so once was I,
As I am now, so you will be,
Prepare for death and follow me

Translation to contemporary usage:

"yer gonna die!"
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 15, 2012 - 02:24am PT
That was a nicely done thing, Tradman. The dead deserve a song about them if not a memorial.

But where did you learn to type and play at the same time?

Another question, prompted by your apparent playment on the guitar, can you remember a lament about a climber dying: "his pitons pulled his rope is broke and now he climbs the walls of hell." No notion of the music.
"Hey, that is the name of a Tuolumne route, isn't it?"--ba-dump-ump

Nothing like cords of corpses to inspire da Brim jokes.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 15, 2012 - 07:18am PT
Tami, I like photos. If taken and presented the right way they are not disrespectfull. Sometimes a stark brutal artistic photo can make the world aware of horrible unjust situations that sometimes the world trys to fix. You use the same argument that the bush admin used to outlaw the photography of fallen military personel in Iraq and Afganistan..

Y'all have no problem telling jokes about playing soccer with their heads but find it offensive to show a photo of their final struggle that may just be the catalist to change a father's mind about going up to 8,000m

People are f*#ked up...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 07:24am PT
I agree.

When the head of the Nepal Mountaineering Association mentioned
the need to bring the bodies down, it wasn't just in reference to the
sacred mountain but was also suggested as a way for Sherpas at least, to
earn good karma by helping the families of the dead.

Then again, one of the reasons they're famous and so well thought of, is that
their sense of compassion extends beyond their own tribe.

If they were to perceive that we have no respect for our own dead, by reading
threads such as this one, then what kind of motivation would many of them have
in the future to risk their lives to save people who aren't even respected by their
own tribe?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 15, 2012 - 08:04am PT
Good point, Jan.
Hey, your email is no good(?)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 08:37am PT
It works. I'm just backed up on correspondence because of end of
school year paper grading. I'll get back to you soon.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 15, 2012 - 09:06am PT
so Who gets to go and spend a lot of time hacking frozen corpses out of
the ice of everest?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 15, 2012 - 09:25am PT
how is this disrespectfull?http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Mzk6Pz04Jiki

http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Mzo7ODc6IyYk

or thishttp://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Mzo7NTw4KSIq
Norwegian

Trad climber
Placerville, California
May 15, 2012 - 09:52am PT
"someday i'll climb a mountain,
and the mountain will die on me."
-noreason

and then i'll go around
climbing other world mountains
and those mountains will
discourse on super anatomy
and debate the ethical purity
of leaving dead mountains
on mountaineers.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 10:38am PT
tradmanclimbs-

Good question.

I think part of it has to do with whether the photo portrays a social evil that is responsible for the death or it was the result of personal choice. All the photos you showed had the possibility to provoke people to improve the situation whereas a long dead corpse does not.

Seeing a photo of grave social injustice provokes anger at the injustice and hopefully a desire to end it.

Showing a long dead person who died through some misjudgement or personal weakness serves no purpose, especially to the loved ones left behind, other than to remind them of the loved one's preventable demise.

In the families I have known where someone died climbing, those who don't climb usually feel a lot of anger toward the person whom they believe "threw their life away". They see climbing as a kind of suicide, a selfish act which punishes the living for many years afterward. Seeing the dead one again brings up feelings of grief and anger and guilt of the surviver all over again.

Also, I think there is an irrational element that sees just dying or freshly dead people as still human whereas an old corpse is a macabre shell somehow that prevents closure.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
May 15, 2012 - 10:48am PT
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 10:48am PT
Well that's good. Probably it's enough to cover them with rocks of which there are plenty.
Sometimes this can not be done immediately, but is done later when the crisis is over.

Having plenty of Sherpas helps both to save lives and to do the necessary. A high percentage of
fatalities have been people trying to do the mountain on the cheap with too little support in
manpower and oxygen.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 15, 2012 - 11:02am PT
This has become a Nepal specific thread. Special circumstances exist there- people dying in high but not necessairily technical terrain and a local populace whose religious beliefs mandate body retieval. I say again, the circumstances are all important, and there are many mountain areas where the conditions are unlike Nepal. I believe that the place where the last adventure ended is the best, for me at least, "resting" place imaginable.
I have never understood the term RIP. The corporeal remains of a person are just so many chemicals slowly degrading over time, no resting is involved.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 15, 2012 - 11:03am PT
I feel that a well composed photo of a corps on a mountain is a good reminder for us to be carefull,to consider the ramifications of our actions, to perhaps think of the effect on loved ones left behind. it also exposes some of the cuthroat aspect of modern high altitude buisness..

Modern war photography has taken a huge step bacwards in the last decade. Gone are the days of showing what really happens in war. The new era shows only those whitewashed romatic shots that help recruit fresh meat.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 11:07am PT
I do believe this issue needs to be discussed before any expedition,
both with the loved ones back home and other expedition members.
It iinvolves more than an individual decision.
WBraun

climber
May 15, 2012 - 11:24am PT
Westerners ares so fuking arrogant of the Himalayas.

They have no real clue what those mountains are all about really.

Westerners only use their defective eyeballs and not their souls to understand ......
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 15, 2012 - 11:24am PT
If you need to discuss what to do with your remains before a climb, you might want to try another activity.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 15, 2012 - 11:29am PT
thin the herd.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 15, 2012 - 11:30am PT
Nobody controls rockfall or avalanches how ever good their climbing skills.

Likewise distracted, drunk and drugged drivers.
That's why I carry a living will card in my wallet also.

When I go to remote regions of Nepal, I have evacuation insurance in case I survive
and the American Embassy, my family and the Sherpas all know if I die there,
to cremate and scatter the ashes there and send the photos to my family.



J2onK2

Mountain climber
UT
May 15, 2012 - 11:46am PT
Ron Anderson and "Malemut" - you are both a disgrace to climbing. When you post such ignorant, hateful slander, you only reveal your own shameful indignity. Sandy Hill has done absolutely nothing to you and yet you spew forth poison about her and her performance on Everest. What in hell do you know about what happened up there and how would your public persona be if you had an agenda-driven writer following YOU around on your climbs, looking for dirt and creating it where none existed? I dare say, given the level of your arrogant stupidity, you would not fare well on someone else's page.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 15, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Mzk8OD84JCEnand honest journalism......
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2012 - 12:36pm PT

Ron wrote: "sully,I heard she gave a mean bl*wjob too!"

What you reported about Sandy Hill is what you read that other mean-spirited, snide, faux journalists wrote about her, not what happened in the real world.

She's not the first person to struggle weathering a storm on Everest - with this thread as evidence, the mountain is littered with the bodies of "real" climbers who didn't make it.

Sandy Hill is not only my neighbor but my friend and has always been a totally gracious and stand-up person, and I believe I am a reasonable judge of character. Personal attacks on her are less than brave in my book. If you were to look closely at my background, and probably at yours as well, I know (in my case) someone course and snarky could make a case that we are unfit to be alive.

I'm just pissed off that I had to account for merely mentioning a friend's name and triggering this kind of juvenile crap. Go ahead and flame your friends on this list - I do all the time and I get roasted alive here daily. I expect it and enjoy the back and forth. But you can't start character assassination on strangers based on the crap someone wrote in a best seller. That's just poor form and in this case you dragged me into it.
Not good.

JL
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 15, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
+1 for Sandy Hill, I have always found her to be a gracious, classy and witty.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
May 15, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
But you can't start character assassination on strangers based on the crap someone wrote in a best seller.

Here here. That's another thread. What that hack did to Anatoli Boukreev was disgraceful.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
May 15, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
"(over 200 on Everest)"

There are 229 corpses on Everest, to be exact!
zBrown

Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
May 15, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
According to the World Health Organization:

56 Million deaths occur per year or about
153,400 per day, or a little more than 100 per minute.

Also,
225 births every minute, or something just over 350,000 per day.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 15, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
Tami nailed that. I know my thoughts go to the maudlin when I see photos of the war dead. The photos I saw briefly yesterday, my first inclination, I recorded. I gagged, slightly. It was not so much ghastly, but more like Berlioz.

I'm seriously glad I didn't puke. But it was visceral. The choice is ours to look at what we look at, let's all concede that. The choice of the Largo to consider the possibility it might seriously damage somebody's head is commendable, but in print it would be a harder decision. What do you say, John? It's not so easy to retract a run of printed media.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
May 15, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Here here. That's another thread. What that hack did to Anatoli Boukreev was disgraceful.

The correct expressioni is "hear, hear"--that's not totally obvious.

I'd doubt the Sherpa's would give a rat's arse about Sandy Hill compared to any other Western "climber" they're paid to take up--if they have to provide a little extra pushing and pulling, for which I'm sure they're paid, so much the better. Perhaps I'm wrong, never been there, but they're in it for the money, no? Ol' Sandy's got plenty of that.
lele honu

Trad climber
SD
May 15, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Very interesting post and thread activity. I too have wondered about this topic as anyone can scroll YouTube and see videos of people who have passed lying frozen in their tracks. Reading/watching Ankers movie on George Mallory strikes the same chord. Each to their own, as Donini mentioned, I agree. It should be a personal and or family decision what should be done with a passed family/friend. Unfortunately, my brother (in the angst of growing schizophrenia) took our mothers ashes to Alaska with him on trail. Didn't get to say good bye when she passed or when he spread her ashes without my knowledge.
JL - I gotta ask, do you and Henry Rollins ever hang out? - Similar composition to a degree.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 15, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
I was thinking earlier about the traffic on this Topic. Not even 48 hrs and two hundred posts. Can't be a record, it has no booze or sex to mention.
I wanted to say this to all of you that it's been well-conducted.
It has been educational. Entertaining. Just what I came for.

Toadgas, the guy had it coming. FN poser!
musciofcrampons

Social climber
Brooklyn
May 16, 2012 - 06:52am PT

Mules would be ok?
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
May 16, 2012 - 09:30am PT
"Mules would be ok?"

That brings some thoughts to mind!

I suspect much of the furor here is in regards to the growing number of individuals who, with their bankbook as their primary qualification, are what epitomizes(for many of us)the ignoble decline of Everest into what it is now, a meaningless symbol of what money can buy you in this world.

Which, for some, amounts to bragging rights and a picture of them on top of Everest with ice-axe raised to display on their office wall to gloat over.

Here is what I ponder, the question I put forth: Is it, will it, or was it worth the loss of life of some poor porter/Sherpa and the heartbreak of his children and family. Secondary to their(clients)lack of ability, or the typical current groups lack of preparation, ability and skill level in general(which increases risk and loss of life)?

So far, evidently so...
steve shea

climber
May 16, 2012 - 09:37am PT
"If you need to discuss what to do with your remains before a climb, you might want to try another activity" Donini. Priceless, I cannot stop laughing! Reminds me that some think that purchasing insurance is betting against yourself, in a way it is. I know people who were there during the Everest debacle. Some I have tied in with and know to trust their judgement. To hear the story from them is not surprising but a bad scene nonetheless. No further comment on that.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 16, 2012 - 09:54am PT
scrolling the internet doesnt make you an expert ron,
i suggest a lovely trip to nepal for you and anyone who has not been.
be with some different people.go for a proper trek before you die.
perhaps aqquire a more worldly view on life.drink some tea.
stay with a sherpa family for a while. climb a small mountain. live.
give us a trip report.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 16, 2012 - 10:22am PT
dear ron im just suggesting that a paltry sum is all thats required to go.
you might just find someone to laugh with! of course you dont have to bring your gun
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 16, 2012 - 10:42am PT
Nice photos!

As for Everest being a walk up, not exactly. Unless you've ever been above 18,000 feet (the Himalayan snowline), you don't know the difficulty even with modern gear and support systems. Part of the reason so many die is because of the changing conditions, not just their inexperience. Some very big name climbers have died up there too, so I think anyone who makes it to the top deserves some respect even if they never could have done it without all the support.

As for whether the volume trade should be allowed to go to Everest, the Sherpas would definitely say yes. They have gone from some of the poorest people in the world to upper middle class by Nepalese standards in two generations thanks to mass mountaineering in the Himalayas. Many of them also died while farming and herding in those mountains before mountaineering, and with no insurance.

I do think Russel Bryce canceling his expedition will have massive repercussions on safety in the future. Now that the barrier has been broken, others will follow suit. The clients will scream that the Sherpas aren't what they used to be and that will be true. They are becoming more like the guides in the Alpes every season.
jstan

climber
May 16, 2012 - 11:19am PT
The technology for cleaning off the bodies exists. All the Nepalese need do is stop issuing permits for parties at $70,000 each, and instead issue $10,000 permits per individual also requiring a (pick a number) $10,000 refundable deposit to pay for removal should it be needed. Time of removal unspecified. When you consider the cost of guided climbs at $65,000 each, it isn't even that big a change for the guidee. The cost of administering the program might even be undertaken by the embassy for the country from which the client comes. The deposit would be a transaction taking place at the time a visa is negotiated.

There would not even have to be a support installation at base camp. The skycrane flies in with ten tons of fuel in a tank. Set the tank down, load say six Nepalese and place two with a cargo sling at each of three designated collection points. (I have seen a film showing how these guys can work at altitude. Like us at 10,000 feet! If the chopper has to fight to get to altitude only once, each team could be placed at two or more sites in a day. Waiting for a day of good weather is the only unknown.

When the guidee makes the $10,000 removal deposit they have to sign their agreement as to the method of removal, in the unlikely event it becomes necessary. Job done. This fee would be higher at the start so as to cover the cost of working off the present load of bodies.


Climbers do a lot of waiting at base camp. When it comes time for the dropped cargo slings to be gathered up for airlifting out, hire them to do the gathering. An preview of what they want to climb into.

Where's the hole in this? Jim?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 16, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Somehow I can't get emotionally envolved in the Everest rat race, guiding scene and the attendent mortality issues of bringing barely qualified people into the "death zone." The motives for most of the "clients" are far removed from the reasons that have kept me actively exploring the mountains for nearly 50 years. The motives of the guides are quite clear and not very laudable.

Alex Lowe told me, after he had led two successful trips to Everest, that he decided to quit guiding the mountain because he felt the margin of saftey insufficient. This was the year before the Scott Fisher et al tragedy.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
May 16, 2012 - 11:39am PT
Conrad has posted here that the Everest rat race is part of the "climbing scene". I assume that includes the bodies.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 16, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Q231: Who or what mule is next? I guarantee its not I, and I hope it's not you.
Jeff Rhoads

climber
UT
May 16, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
This is for Ron,

It is so easy to rant and rave about people you say were Hauled up Everest and don't belong there. All the normal people like Mailmen,Dentist & Etc. Who made you Overlord of who should climb anything!! Doesn't anyone have the right and hope to stand on the highest point on earth. Or to climb for a lofty goal & the joy of Mountains and climbing.

Plus Everest is NOT the biggest open Dump in the world. Have you been there??? They have come a long way into cleaning & making climbing teams clean up the Mtn. Maybe the Chinese side is a pit. Talk to them.

Sure it takes money to climb Everest, K2, Denali, The Matterhorn but give me a break. As for your attack on Sandy. She wasn't Hauled up and she had already been to Everest before, THE EAST FACE as an experienced climber. Just because she has money, does that make her a less experienced climber?

Get over your vile, bitter put down of other people because of there place in society.
Now I'm over my rant & rave so apologize to Sandy publicily and go climb something to clear your head. I'm going to.
Jeff Rhoads

climber
UT
May 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Ron,

Sorry I'm late. I got the posting through email and had to let you know my thoughts. I'll try to keep up next time. As for drinking from below base camp, would you drink from below camp Muir on Rainer or the meadow water below the Grand Teton?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 16, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Ron A.. For a frothing at the mouth gun nut repuglican you sure are uninformed.. those troops are carrying the best bolt action infantry rifle ever made... And that ain't a mauser....
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 17, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
It seems the next stage of corpse retrieval has begun by lowering people from helicopters
so that they can drill an anchor and chip a body free from the ice.
Once more all it takes is money.


Pics! Simone Moro's stunning sling operation

http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/news.php?id=20846
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 17, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
whose drinkin the water below carson city? no thanks,
ill stick with a drink below base camp and then perhaps some
local rakshi to counter.
Tan Slacks

climber
Joshua Tree
May 17, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
I remember being over in Nepal in the 70's and thinking how heroic to be left where I lay,then I ran into Nick. As far as I know (and I don't know much) this was the first organized clean up in the Khumbu.

Leave the bodies, don't take pictures, but PICK UP THE TRASH!



my 2 cents
Captain...or Skully

climber
May 18, 2012 - 12:06am PT
What's a Bleuet? Sounds like I should say Gesundheit, or some such.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
May 18, 2012 - 12:58am PT
That body extraction on Nuptse that Moro is doing. The family can't get a death certificate, and the person is listed as missing. The estate is hung up and the insurance company won't pay a death benefit.

Or something like that....

So I would say that the world needs more badass good hearted men like Simone Moro who are willing to stick their necks out like that to help a family bring closure to a tragedy. Apparently there was supposed to be two bodies in the tent. But wasn't.

Enough ill informed criticism being posted here.

Give it a rest.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
May 18, 2012 - 05:59am PT
Roofing is way up there on the list of dangerous jobs...
aguacaliente

climber
May 18, 2012 - 06:31am PT
A Bleuet is a stove, or a gas canister for a stove.

Here is a story about Simone Moro and his ethics and his rescue of a climber on Lhotse in 2001: http://www.k2news.com/climbers/lp9.htm Unfortunately it seems like this is the exception, or maybe it's that few people are strong enough to do what Moro did.

I can't speak to what motivates people to climb Everest as a tick-off but I think Donini's point deserves respect: that it's questionable to take the job that facilitates the tick-off. Many people do jobs that are questionable at times, this probably is far from the worst, but it's one that happens in climbing. I mean, we could sit around and talk about how bankers or oil bandits are worse, but that's not a climbing ethics/morals issue.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 18, 2012 - 06:31am PT
I don't want to seem too picky here but a porter and a Sherpa /sherpa are two different entities. Porters don't die on the Everest trek because they never go above the snow line and there are teahouses right up to base camp.

Most sherpas by profession are Sherpas by ethnicity, also which causes some confusion. Only sherpas go onto the permanent glaciers. So far only men do this job although there have been Sherpa women and other Nepalese ethnicities who climbed to the top of Everest as expedition members. In that case you had sherpas working for Sherpani. Both sherpas and Sherpas/ Sherpani are well equipped. There are even factories making expedition down gear in Kathmandu now.

Porters can be any hill tribe ethnicity, including plenty of girls who lug those heavy baskets around. Some have died on treks in other parts of Nepal when caught out in a snowstorm above 15,000 feet, often just traversing a pass to get to a lower altitude. There is now an NGO in Kathmandu which rents out warm clothes and shoes to these porters to try to prevent that.

Since it is the poorest of the poor who work in unskilled trekking jobs of this sort, they often don't have or don't want to spend money on warm clothes and shoes. I always demanded that my porters at least had tennis shoes and tried them on in front of me so that I know they fit. They often preferred to trek barefoot below the snow so as not to wear their shoes out!

In the old days I used to always carry ziplock bags and nylon rope to tie around their feet if we got caught in snow. I had extra space blankets and a 2 man nylon tent which could be used as a bivouac sack for up to 6 porters. Amazingly, this was enough to prevent frostbite below the permanent snow line even in bad weather. Now days we can rent boots and tents.

Above the snow line, I always use Sherpas as sherpas, no porters!
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
May 18, 2012 - 06:37am PT
"Potentially lethal work happens everyday in order to provide just about everything humans use to secure themselves and their families."

Yes, that's true, Jim.

I guess I was saying just that, perhaps we all need to ask ourselves that question(where shall the line be drawn). In other words, it's a personal decision. That is why I was asking the question "Was it/is it worth the risk?" I believe it is in some instances. I do believe it is a worthy goal or pursuit. Even though I never had the desire to do it myself. And I do admire many, such as Sir Edmund Hillary and many others up to the current day, including the guides.

But I don't believe anyone would say it is worth a life. "It will cost us one life to pull this off." Many ascents, and entire seasons, don't require a life. But, inevitably, one will. That is just a fact.

I understand where you are coming from, what you are saying. And times change/have changed. There is more knowledge, skill(of guides, etc.)technological improvements in equipment, just to name a few changes in the past couple decades. This has made it all possible and in some ways, much safer.

And Guides have worked all their lives to get where they are. Plus, being a Sherpa/Porter is a way of life. Who would want to deny that to a people, a community? It is their livelihood and identity. It provides them (Sherpas & Porters) an increased standard of living and gives them a certain sense of self worth(i imagine). You could also apply these same values and attributes to the Guides. Who would want to, or be willing to, destroy all of that?

I just asked a difficult question. Primarily directed at the current crop of individual clients. I would hope that people would have good reasons to climb Everest. I don't know what is going on in peoples head. Hopefully no one would climb it to simply brag about it. I think if that really was the case, they wouldn't get very far on the Mountain, once the reality of simply putting one foot in front of the other became the hardest thing they had ever done and the most dangerous. Along with the added scenario of some 200+ and ever present reminders of how it could suddenly end up for them at any given moment.

Yes, so where do they(the client)draw the line when it comes to not only the risk to themselves, but to those who are making it possible for them to achieve their goal of climbing Everest(and returning)?

edit: I included/left Porters(here)because, although they are not at risk, they would be affected by decrease/increase of livelihood, the overall picture. But thanks for clearing that up Jan, I wasn't sure about the difference between the two and about their specific danger and how they are specifically utilized, etc.!
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Mar 22, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Mar 23, 2017 - 08:10am PT
Frozen corpses.... and we do this stuff voluntarily. WTF is wrong with us?

Frankly corpses have never bothered me. But all of the frozen sh#t everywhere?....

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