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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:34am PT
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Mr. alien, my question is not polite, so I won't ask it. However...
Americans don't pay VAT taxes on purchases in the US. We have sales taxes that vary by state. Traditionally prices are qouted before tax in the US.
Using the ratio of the Dollar/Euro exchange rate from the beginning of 2006 versus the the beginning of 2008, the price of the Jetta in the US would be about $28,000, (this price includes any taxes VW owes to the German government)not $38,000.
VW sells many cars all over the world. They price their cars to meet the compeition in each market.
Most Jettas are made in Puebla, Mexico. The Dollar/Peso exchange rate is about the same in 2008 as it was in 2006.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:36am PT
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Roger, are you related to that guy who used to drive real fast in Utah?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:05am PT
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My 1989 honda Civic 4 speed 1.3L? consistantly got 40mpg sometimes 44mpg and 38 if i really beat on it going up a lot of hills, stiff headwind etc. Supprised me that my GFs 2003 Matrix only got 24-26mpg. What a step backwards! that thing was advertised at 26 to 30mpg but it Never got 30. same thing with my 2000 Dodge caravan. Its advertised at 19 to 26mpg but the best I have ever done is 24 and my summer is more like 18 to23 Winter is 17 to 19.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:12am PT
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Morning TIG,
The short answer is 'no' I am not related to Craig Breedlove, who drove the 'Spirit of America' to the world land speed record for a short time.
The slightly longer answer is 'yes.' All the Breedloves are related.
We all have been told the same story..."Five Breedlove brothers came from England to the America..."
The truth is 'Breedlove' is a made up American name--not from the 60's in the Bay Area where I grew up, although that would be a better story. The first Breedlove was a Charles Breedlove in Essex County in Virginia in 1693, or there abouts. His wife's name was Kindness. The family moved south and west, mostly farmers, some more successful than others.
A few years ago, based on all the folklore in the extended family, I searched British genealogical sites in the UK for the origins of the Breedlove name.
I found several Breedlove dating back into the early 1800s. All were emigrants from the US. I have been trying to figure out a way to find out where Charles came from.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:21am PT
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Thanks. Just wondering since you seemed to have a strong interest in cars and that triggered the connection.
I remember him breaking 400, 500, and 600 mph back in the early 60s.
Bringing the obvious question to mind, what car uses the most gasoline per second?
What "car" uses the most jet kero per second?
:-)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:52am PT
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TIG, as a teenager, I remember how exciting it was when the land speed records were being broken on the Salt Flats--big time news. Low budget, junk yard mechanics straping a jet engine onto a pointed fuel tank and lighting the fuse.
My interest in this thread comes from my work. The company I work for supplies powertrain components--mostly cam-phasers and fast hydraulic valves--to many of the world's gasoline car makers, including most of the very high end sport cars. We only have a few programs in diesel: I am resoponsible for my company's emission control technology to reduce NOx in diesel engine exhaust. I am buried deep. We are focused mostly on heavy duty truck engines in Europe, Japan, and the US.
Also, my wife and one of my daughters drive Toyota Pirui. As consumers they put a big value on having a high mileage car to do their part for emissions reduction and global climate change. Economically it is not such a good deal and there is some long-term risk owning a vehicle with new and expensive battery technology (leasing takes care of that), but it is a cool car to drive, is very well designed, and it looks good. Interestingly, the Toyota CEO that made the decision to invest in full hybrids spent a billion dollars knowing that the success would only fall on the shoulders of a future CEO. I point this out when people ask me what is wrong with the US car makers.
Once the vehicle makers figure it out, most are betting that Americans will drive diesels. They get good mileage--much better than gasoline hybrids for the way Americans drive--and are a kick to drive (with the acceleration), but the NOx emission technology is not sorted out in passenger cars yet. Maybe by 2010.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 10:16am PT
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Good luck!
NOx is far and away the biggest problem for electric generation in our current mix as well.
What is that smell? I can tell by nose sooner than I notice visually that I am driving behind a diesel.
EDIT: Well maybe second biggest for both, but perhaps more tractable than the first.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
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on the topic of european cars and land speed records, i feel it pertinent to point out that the record for a 4 cylinder is held by a Merkur XR4Ti :)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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Hey TIG,
I tried to find out what components of the diesel make for the distinctive smell with not much success. When I drive diesels in Europe, I do not smell the diesel fumes except in a mild form at filling stattions--never on the road.
NO2 has a pungent odor, as does sulfer dioxide, SO2. NO, CO2, CO are all odorless. Smoke seems to have a distinctive smell. There are also aromatic traces of other bad actors in diesel fumes, but they are in very small quantities.
I know that in LA, the exhaust gases of a modern diesel are cleaner than the incoming air. This is mostly due to the reduction in the NO2 and particulate (smoke) based on engine management and exhaust treatment technologies. The sulfer in diesel has been mostly removed from the fuel itself.
I don't think that most people can smell the 'diesel' smell in any modern diesel engine. The noise level is also greatly reduced--reducing the pressure rise (the source of the noise)per crank angle is also part of the improvement in fuel economy, the emissions, and the slow, long burns gives more power.
As I have said before, the biggest hurdle for diesel in the US is getting folks to try a new one, instead of remembering what the old ones smelled and sounded like. BMW brings 'ride-and-drive' 5 Series to conferences and lets the EPA and other regulators (along with any one else) drive them around town just to get the idea across. I have suggested that Mercedes and VW should only use diesel cars as loners when cars are left for service.
Unfortunately, the relatively large, 4.5 to 6.0 liter displacment, engines used in currnet pickup trucks and large SUVs are noisy. Not as noisy as old diesels but still noisy. They also will have a higher probability of smelling since they have higher power and therefore have higher emissions.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:35pm PT
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A lot of people have pointed out that car mileage hasn't changed much since the 80's and if anything has gotten worse. That must, at least in part, be due to the stricter emission regulations.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
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Fullmonty,
I tired to find our if Honda is selling any of their diesels currently, but could not. Do you know if they are for sale anywhere?
In not, I suspect that Honda is not willing to risk their lean NOx trap catalyst with an internally generated NH3 SCR aftertreatment systems in the US just yet. (They need this to meet the EPA and California standards; the European standards are not as tough to meet currently.) This combination of technologies is promising for small engines with low loads, but the lean NOx traps durability has not proved (tiny amounts of sulfer poisons the catalyst and burning it off reduces the catalyst life) and the control of NH3 in the SCR is tricky--high temperatures 'dump' the ammonia into the exhasut pipe and turning it back into NOx may exceed the allowable NOx levels.
Besides the technical hurdles, if there is a string of failures in the field (something like 10), the car maker has to recall all vehicles and fix the problem. When it is basic technology failure, this is very risky.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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TIG asked:
Does anybody ever say:
I am going to buy the car that gets the best fuel mileage in the world.
I am going to buy the production car that gets the best mileage.
Rarely, but yes. I did, and I've been very pleased with my car.
I'm at 85,000 miles, and have had no issues. As I said, I regularly get 70mpg over long stretches. I easily fit all my camping plus climbing gear in it, as well as that of my partner. So yes, it fits my needs beautifully.
GO
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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In response to TIG:
I was going to buy the car with the best gas mileage. I dont give a damn what others think of me when I drive around.
My wife vetoed my idea and I had to compromise. Ended up with a Matrix. Not bad mileage, but I know the car companies can do better.
So in the end it was a compromise.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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spyork - thanks for the candor.
Except clearly you do care about at least what ONE person besides you thinks.
GO, so you are saying that a car with the same physical characteristics, but costing 6 figures and getting 5 mpg more would do it for you. Good on, ya!
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Glaidig
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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For those of you with a very efficient vehicle, perhaps you might want to even out your carbon footprint with one of these conversion kits
More info can be seen here http://www.mattracks.com/
Guy
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Roger, an Accord diesel (which we will get for 2009) is currently sold in Europe. To me, the main problem isn't so much negative stereotypes about diesels as their cost premium (I suppose some of that can be attributed to the turbo). My dad drives a 2002 Civic 5-speed that has an (adjusted) highway EPA rating of 36 mpg. A 2002 Jetta diesel 5-speed has an (adjusted) highway rating of 44 mpg, which is 22% better than the Civic. However, it's not going to be as fast (minor consideration) but the major consideration is that currently diesel costs 18% more than gas and the diesel engine cost more to initially purchase.
You might find this link interesting also, including the comments. http://cascadiascorecard.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/the_little_engi.html There seems to be some support for the idea that simply consuming less would do more for the environment than buying a new car every 3 years but making sure it's a fuel efficient one. Of course, being a good American means consuming as much as possible, so this doesn't seem to be an especially popular approach to reducing our impact on the environment.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:59pm PT
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TIG asked: GO, so you are saying that a car with the same physical characteristics, but costing 6 figures and getting 5 mpg more would. Good on, ya!
I'm saying no such thing. Affordable production models only need apply, for my $$. Furthermore, I wasn't interested in being on the cutting edge, so I waited until they'd been out on the market for several years, to insure they'd worked out the kinks.
That's what makes this all so funny to me. To my mind, I was pretty conservative. Even back when I bought my car in '02, big sacrifices were not required.
But, as always, ymmv. ;)
GO
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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sgrprince, I read the article that you posted, but not all of the comments. I don't think that the Corolla and Prius are comparable, so comparisons are difficult. I also don't think that any car produced to meet one set of emission rules can be easily compared to a newer car designed to meet more stringent emission standards--costs and fuel usage tend to work against emission regulations.
Lastly, I am not sure when Honda has committed to bring a diesel to the US. Any diesel vehicle that meets the current European NOx standards does not come close to meeting the 2007 or 2010 EPA or California standards. Mercedes is marketing a high end E class diesel that meets the standards, but the details are telling. Very few of them are being offered. They are very expensive ($60,000+). They have much worse fuel usage compared to the same vehicle in Europe.
As best as I can tell, Mercedes is offering its diesel for bragging rights and to create an engineering and business structure to control development for European standards that are coming. US Tier 2, Bin 5 standards in a diesel is very tough for all technologies at any price. In Europe by about 2012 or so--the Euro VI standards--small diesels will have to have a workable solution for standards that are near to the US EPA 2010 standards. So I think that this will get sorted out for small engines within the next few years, but the various gasoline hybrids may win out in the US since the technologies are further along. And the price of fuel is only a small part of the total cost of driving a car.
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I am going to buy the car that gets the best fuel mileage in the world.
Let us know!