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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 08:42am PT
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Every unit of energy you save at the wheels by making the car a lot lighter will save an additional seven units of fuel that you don't need to waste getting it to the wheels.
That's kind of funny.
It is certainly true of acceleration. But how much distance does it take to stop a rowboat? How much to stop an aircraft carrier? Ultra Large Crude Carrier?
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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Here's my question about the Prius: is there a reason other than the American obsession with power and acceleration not to sell the Prius with just the gas engine (no electric motor)? I realize that the city fuel economy would suffer, but it should remain about the same on the highway, and would be able to be sold a lot cheaper. I'd buy that car.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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Juan... this car says its rated for 33 city and 41 highway on the Smart Car web site. http://www.smartusa.com/
Saw one in the lot at work a couple days ago. Tiny.
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toomey
climber
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Mar 15, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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seems like cars in the 80s got better mileage than now. Chevy Sprints got 50mpg ... Civics were in the 30s and seemed like a lto of small cars were getting high mpg.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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sgrprince,
> Here's my question about the Prius: is there a reason other than the American obsession with power and acceleration not to sell the Prius with just the gas engine (no electric motor)? I realize that the city fuel economy would suffer, but it should remain about the same on the highway, and would be able to be sold a lot cheaper. I'd buy that car.
Actually, I've heard the city MPG would not be affected that much. The regenerative braking seems like a cool idea, but the problem is that you have to accelerate all that battery weight after each stop sign. So if you get rid of the battery and electric engine, the car is much lighter, so you could come pretty close to breaking even on city MPG. (This argument is strongest when the car has a single occupant, but that's common for city usage).
Of course we know the best city "MPG" is on a bike, rolling through the stop signs.... Watch out for the cops, though! (bummer, Ed)
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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If gas turbine engines were cheap, or even economical, they would stop building propeller driven airplanes.
Back in the 1960's a couple of gas turbine engines ran in the Indy 500 (for two years IIRC).
They were not competitive if they were restricted to a size not even small enough to cost the same. - The first year before sized down, one actually did quite well.
So saying that you can double horsepower in a continental by putting a turbine engine is pretty silly. A new IC engine cost $4-$10K. Can you find me a 1985 or newer turbine engine for even the upper end of that range?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
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Oh, I really like this guy Johnathan Goodwin.
This guy has some real brains .......
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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OK. But it is so crazy to blame the auto manufacturers.
Certainly a competitive industry. Not many people going down to their dealer and asking to pay full asking price plus. More likely they want dealers cost plus $100.
Not many people asking for a $50,000 engine in their car that they will have to take it to an airplane mechanic for service. BTW. A cheap annual inspection for a small plane is $1000 to $2000.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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Of course automakers have nothing to do with all this - they just make cars.
"Across the board, European models get an average of 52 MPG versus 32 MPG for the US version of the same car. So the same car on European roads gets 60% better gas mileage than on American roads."
from:
http://gas-cost.net/
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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Hi John,
The European's do get very good gas mileage. Here are a few other important facts.
Europeans drive about half as many miles per year per car as Americans.
The price of gasoline or diesel is about $8.00 per gallon (at current exchange rates).
The roads are much smaller and cars are much smaller. It is common to see a small sedan pulling a light two wheel trailer to get large items home from shopping--SUV and pickups are just too big for the roads.
Currently half of the new cars sold are diesel, which get better better mileage than gasoline engines.
Europeans do not pave the way to new housing developments outside the cities, whereas Americans build new super highways to any new development then locate new business along the new highway. This difference is one of the principal reason that Europeans live in their cities and take public transport. In Germany, where I have spent the most time, if you get off the A autobahns onto the B level highways, you have to wind through city streets at each town and village.
Our new US mileage standards, that have to be reached by 2020, will just meet the current European levels.
As far as I know, the Europeans do not have laws setting minimum mileage standards, just high fuel taxes. (They do have emission standards that are about the same as US standards within a few years leads and lags. However, with better mileage and low miles driven they polute much less in total than we do.)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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Hi Roger,
Thanks. I know all of that stuff as I've been over there a bunch. I was just joking around.
Who would buy a car that could get 50 mpg anyway? ... kidding again. Lots of people!
It's nice to have a big car so you can put all your junk into it. As gas gets more expensive, people will want to buy smaller more efficient cars and the car companies will make them (maybe - unless they are coerced into not going that far into it).
I wish I could sell the VW Lupo in the USA (70+ mpg, diesel). I think I could make some money. How come nobody is doing this? I think we already know the answer.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 16, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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This is easy. The car you don't drive of course!
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 16, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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I think small European cars aren't sold here because, firstly, people haven't historically bought them. Even today, SUVs sell a hell of a lot more than small cars like the Honda Fit, Mini, and Scion XA (which according to Wikipedia was Scion's slowest selling model). Americans demand things like power windows, automatic transmissions (which make small engines lethargic outside cities), and the ability to accelerate to well above the speed limit on demand, and parking isn't a big issue in most American cities.
Also, SUVs (and optioned up vehicles in general) have higher profit margins than stripped cars competing on price as much as features. If automakers have a choice between selling high margin vehicles and low margin vehicles, they'll pick the high margin vehicles.
Since you bring up the Lupo (which is now discontinued) I'll give you another reason VW doesn't import more cars, which is that for every Rabbit sold in the US market, they're losing money due to the high cost of building them and the weak dollar. Cost is a huge factor for cars built in the EU and then shipped to the US because of the exchange rate, and IMO realistically most people aren't willing to spend as much for a small car as for a big car.
I do love small cars, and wish we got more in the US market, I just see a lot of obstacles in the way. Hopefully $5/gallon gas will make it more reasonable to import them.
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 16, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Over 48% of Americans are obese. Over 60% of Americans are overweight.
Most Americans would not fit into small Euro cars...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 16, 2008 - 02:05pm PT
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I am not sure that fuel efficient cars are as low brow or as small as most Americans assume they have to be. A BMW 3 Series is a pretty good sized car to drive and the deisel gets about 39 miles per gallon and accelerates 0 to 62 miles an hour in 7.9 seconds. There is plenty of room in the front seats for just about anyone. Manuals are standard in Europe, but modern automatics and the best new automated manuals--paddle shifters just like F1 racers--get the same mileage.
My gripe with small cars is the back seats are nearly worthless if the passenger has legs and the driver is as tall as me. However, there are two Prius owners in my household, and the back seat leg room is about 6 inches bigger than my Acura TL. It also has more head room in both the front and back. My car is a little fancier and quieter, and much faster, but Toyota seems to have figured out that small cars have to seat four big Americans. With the back seats folded down, the hatch back allows a huge amount of carry room. Now if it only had a diesel engine (Toyota is working on diesels for America.)
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 16, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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Here's the address of a story about why VW isn't selling the new Scirocco here http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=avSfq9xa.jxE. Also, if you find prices of VWs in Euros (I looked a little but had a tough time finding many) you'll see that they're not sold in the US as expensively as the exchange rate would dictate. Assuming they're not making huge amounts of money in Europe, there's no way they can make much, if any, money on cars they're essentially discounting by a large percentage here.
I don't disagree that small cars, or fuel efficient cars, can be nice. However, the DSG gearboxes, while nice, cost a couple grand more than a manual transmission, and a 3-series diesel isn't cheap. As long as gas is at its current price, I don't think many people will see the benefit of spending a bunch of money and driving a small fuel-efficient car (or spending even more to drive a large fuel-efficient car).
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 16, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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I don't know what the Europeans are most likely to do with the rise of the Euro against the dollar. They have some means to modulate the currency issues depending on where they source the components, but most assemble their cars in Euro block countries. VW has been aggressive about expanding assemby into low cost countries, so it is likely, in my mind, that they will be able to offer their cars in the US at competitive prices.
The VW Jetta diesel with a automated six speed manual was offered in the US until the end of 2006. VW stopped selling them at the beginning of 2008 becuase they did not want to decide on the technology to meet the 2007 EPA emission standards. I think they will be back in 2008 or 2009.
Here are the specifications and pricing in late 2006:
Vehicle type: front-engine, front-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan
Price as tested: $24,910 (base price: $22,235)
Engine type: turbocharged and intercooled SOHC 8-valve diesel inline-4, iron block and aluminum head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 116 cu in, 1896cc
Power (SAE net): 100 bhp @ 4000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 177 lb-ft @ 1800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual with automated shifting and clutch
Wheelbase: 101.5 in
Length/width/height: 179.3/70.1/57.4 in
Curb weight: 3306 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 10.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: .37.0 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 11.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 17.6 sec @ 77 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 114 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 176 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.81 g
EPA fuel economy, city driving: 35 mpg
Car and Driver calculated the mileage at 42 highway and 33 around town.
Not bad for a very modern and comforatble sedan.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Our Prius also routinely gets between 48 and 50 mpg.
Curt
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Mar 17, 2008 - 07:01am PT
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A VW Jetta (1.9 diesel bluemotion, 5 speed manual, a/c) would be about $38000 in Germany (including 19% VAT) at the current exchange rate... Any questions ?
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