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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 14, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
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Anyone know what car gets the best gas mileage?
Juan
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kimgraves
Trad climber
2 exits North of the Gunks
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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My new Prius usually gets 48ish mpg. But this tank I'm doing particulary well - so far 52.1 and it's about 3/4 down. For those of you who don't know the Prius has both a real-time and "since last reset" monitor so you can see how you're doing. I reset when I refill the tank.
Best, Kim
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jonstjohn
Trad climber
Fayetteville, WV
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:24pm PT
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I drive a Toyota Corolla - manual - which gets about 41mpg on the highway and 32mpg in the city. Really reasonable compared to the hybrids, too - I got mine new for around $15,000. It's amazing how much you can get into that little car, too!
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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My 2005 Civic hybrid is getting about 46 now.
Once it warms up and the gas is reformulated for
summer driving it'll go up to 55-57. I imagine
the Prius would be going up too, probably high 50's.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Yo Kim - your Prius might be lying to you. You should calculate your mpg's based on miles at fill up just to see. I believe that monitor is notoriously inaccurate most of the time.
Was just looking at some mileage yesterday...it's still on my dry board here at work...
Smart car - coupe (33/41)
Toyota Yaris (29/35)
Toyota Matrix (21/29)
Toyota Corolla (27/35)
Honda Civic (26/34)
Honda Fit (28/34)
Motorcycles:
Harley Davidson 883 (45/60)
Yamaha FZ6 (47 combined)
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:50pm PT
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I got over 20 miles exiting Joshua Tree in a Jeep on just about zero gallons. Gas gauge was well below zero.
I am guessing it averaged about 65 mpg on that trip.
Sometimes the instantaneous readout read over 85
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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Have we progessed technologically/ environmentally in the last 20+ years?
My previous 1984 Honda CRX 1.5 liter bested at 49.9 and averaged 39-41 mpg on road trips.
The 1.3 liter could consistantly get 50/55 mpg.
Makes you wonder what would be different if cars like that were the norm back then.
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Jonny D
Social climber
Lost Angelez, Kalifornia
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Mar 14, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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i've got a toyota matrix 05 and i got 35mpg going to new mexico from l.a last year. i seem to get around 25mpg in town.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 14, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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Mine.
Summer before last I took a road trip. Put 7,000 miles on my car. The trip cost almost exactly 100 gallons of gas. You do the math.
GO
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Mar 14, 2008 - 05:13pm PT
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Ol' Blue: my piece of sh#t 1992 Corolla Wagon is pretty much guaranteed to deliver 30+ mpg.
This sight will help you with what you can expect if you're shopping for a different rig
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 14, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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At 80mpg this could be your next car!
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Mar 14, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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even though there is no reason for the mileage reported by the Prius to not be right, in fact in the original Prius the reported mileage (reported by the car) was about 7% higher than the real mileage and in our newer model the reported mileage is about 4% high.
still great mileage and really low emissions. Plus I like driving it.
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 14, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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This One a "souped-down 1959 Opel T-1 that achieved 376.59 miles per gallon in a 1973 contest."
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Mar 14, 2008 - 06:02pm PT
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Can't remember which car it was, but one of the newer hybrids coming out is advertising 109mpg.
"My previous 1984 Honda CRX 1.5 liter bested at 49.9 and averaged 39-41 mpg on road trips."
Yeah, see, my mid-90's Honda averages 40ish on road trips too... So, I don't get how they release a hybrid that's only getting in the 50's. Gas/oil in this country is a problem only because rich, greedy f*#ks want it to be. There's NO way that in almost 25 years we couldn't make a car that gets better mileage...
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kimgraves
Trad climber
2 exits North of the Gunks
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Mar 14, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
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Well, maybe she's lying....;-) So when we got home tonight I rechecked.
The gas gauge says it's 60% down (about 6 gallons) and I've gone 335 miles so far on this tank. 335/6 = 55.8ish mpg. The computer says I've getting 52.2 mpg.
Whatever the real number is, it's pretty good. Cleaner than diesel. And at this rate I should have a range of over 500 miles per tank.
By the way, when we were in Paris last week we saw A LOT of those Smart cars. You wouldn't believe where the can park. Regular gas was 1.54E/l. While we were there it was 1.49E/$1 (today it was 1.56). There were NO SUVs to be seen anywhere.
Best, Kim
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orange crush
Boulder climber
ca
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Mar 15, 2008 - 03:17am PT
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i have a 96 saturn sl1 and it gets 25 or so in town and 33 on the highway(granted i do drive fast so im sure if you drove the speed limit you could bring these up a couple miles to the gallon)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 15, 2008 - 05:29am PT
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Here is an excerpt from an [url="http://discovermagazine.com/2006/feb/energizer" target="new"]Amory Lovins interview[/url] in Discover Magazine a couple of years back. Worth the read if MPG matters to you...
-----------------------------------------
...
WEIGHT
A modern car, after 120 years of devoted engineering effort since Gottlieb Daimler built the first gasoline-powered vehicle, uses less than 1 percent of its fuel to move the driver. How does that happen?
Well, only an eighth of the fuel energy reaches the wheels. The rest of it is lost in the engine, drivetrain, and accessories, or wasted while the car is idling. Of the one-eighth that reaches the wheels, over half heats the tires on the road or the air that the car pushes aside. So only 6 percent of the original fuel energy accelerates the car. But remember, about 95 percent of the mass being accelerated is the car—not the driver. Hence, less than 1 percent of the fuel energy moves the driver. This is not very gratifying.
Well, the solution is equally inherent in the basic physics I just described. Three-quarters of the fuel usage is caused by the car's weight. Every unit of energy you save at the wheels by making the car a lot lighter will save an additional seven units of fuel that you don't need to waste getting it to the wheels.
...
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 08:42am PT
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Every unit of energy you save at the wheels by making the car a lot lighter will save an additional seven units of fuel that you don't need to waste getting it to the wheels.
That's kind of funny.
It is certainly true of acceleration. But how much distance does it take to stop a rowboat? How much to stop an aircraft carrier? Ultra Large Crude Carrier?
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:40am PT
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Here's my question about the Prius: is there a reason other than the American obsession with power and acceleration not to sell the Prius with just the gas engine (no electric motor)? I realize that the city fuel economy would suffer, but it should remain about the same on the highway, and would be able to be sold a lot cheaper. I'd buy that car.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:08am PT
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Juan... this car says its rated for 33 city and 41 highway on the Smart Car web site. http://www.smartusa.com/
Saw one in the lot at work a couple days ago. Tiny.
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toomey
climber
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Mar 15, 2008 - 04:41pm PT
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seems like cars in the 80s got better mileage than now. Chevy Sprints got 50mpg ... Civics were in the 30s and seemed like a lto of small cars were getting high mpg.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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sgrprince,
> Here's my question about the Prius: is there a reason other than the American obsession with power and acceleration not to sell the Prius with just the gas engine (no electric motor)? I realize that the city fuel economy would suffer, but it should remain about the same on the highway, and would be able to be sold a lot cheaper. I'd buy that car.
Actually, I've heard the city MPG would not be affected that much. The regenerative braking seems like a cool idea, but the problem is that you have to accelerate all that battery weight after each stop sign. So if you get rid of the battery and electric engine, the car is much lighter, so you could come pretty close to breaking even on city MPG. (This argument is strongest when the car has a single occupant, but that's common for city usage).
Of course we know the best city "MPG" is on a bike, rolling through the stop signs.... Watch out for the cops, though! (bummer, Ed)
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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If gas turbine engines were cheap, or even economical, they would stop building propeller driven airplanes.
Back in the 1960's a couple of gas turbine engines ran in the Indy 500 (for two years IIRC).
They were not competitive if they were restricted to a size not even small enough to cost the same. - The first year before sized down, one actually did quite well.
So saying that you can double horsepower in a continental by putting a turbine engine is pretty silly. A new IC engine cost $4-$10K. Can you find me a 1985 or newer turbine engine for even the upper end of that range?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2008 - 08:59pm PT
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Oh, I really like this guy Johnathan Goodwin.
This guy has some real brains .......
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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OK. But it is so crazy to blame the auto manufacturers.
Certainly a competitive industry. Not many people going down to their dealer and asking to pay full asking price plus. More likely they want dealers cost plus $100.
Not many people asking for a $50,000 engine in their car that they will have to take it to an airplane mechanic for service. BTW. A cheap annual inspection for a small plane is $1000 to $2000.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 09:51pm PT
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Of course automakers have nothing to do with all this - they just make cars.
"Across the board, European models get an average of 52 MPG versus 32 MPG for the US version of the same car. So the same car on European roads gets 60% better gas mileage than on American roads."
from:
http://gas-cost.net/
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:45pm PT
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Hi John,
The European's do get very good gas mileage. Here are a few other important facts.
Europeans drive about half as many miles per year per car as Americans.
The price of gasoline or diesel is about $8.00 per gallon (at current exchange rates).
The roads are much smaller and cars are much smaller. It is common to see a small sedan pulling a light two wheel trailer to get large items home from shopping--SUV and pickups are just too big for the roads.
Currently half of the new cars sold are diesel, which get better better mileage than gasoline engines.
Europeans do not pave the way to new housing developments outside the cities, whereas Americans build new super highways to any new development then locate new business along the new highway. This difference is one of the principal reason that Europeans live in their cities and take public transport. In Germany, where I have spent the most time, if you get off the A autobahns onto the B level highways, you have to wind through city streets at each town and village.
Our new US mileage standards, that have to be reached by 2020, will just meet the current European levels.
As far as I know, the Europeans do not have laws setting minimum mileage standards, just high fuel taxes. (They do have emission standards that are about the same as US standards within a few years leads and lags. However, with better mileage and low miles driven they polute much less in total than we do.)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 15, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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Hi Roger,
Thanks. I know all of that stuff as I've been over there a bunch. I was just joking around.
Who would buy a car that could get 50 mpg anyway? ... kidding again. Lots of people!
It's nice to have a big car so you can put all your junk into it. As gas gets more expensive, people will want to buy smaller more efficient cars and the car companies will make them (maybe - unless they are coerced into not going that far into it).
I wish I could sell the VW Lupo in the USA (70+ mpg, diesel). I think I could make some money. How come nobody is doing this? I think we already know the answer.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 16, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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This is easy. The car you don't drive of course!
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 16, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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I think small European cars aren't sold here because, firstly, people haven't historically bought them. Even today, SUVs sell a hell of a lot more than small cars like the Honda Fit, Mini, and Scion XA (which according to Wikipedia was Scion's slowest selling model). Americans demand things like power windows, automatic transmissions (which make small engines lethargic outside cities), and the ability to accelerate to well above the speed limit on demand, and parking isn't a big issue in most American cities.
Also, SUVs (and optioned up vehicles in general) have higher profit margins than stripped cars competing on price as much as features. If automakers have a choice between selling high margin vehicles and low margin vehicles, they'll pick the high margin vehicles.
Since you bring up the Lupo (which is now discontinued) I'll give you another reason VW doesn't import more cars, which is that for every Rabbit sold in the US market, they're losing money due to the high cost of building them and the weak dollar. Cost is a huge factor for cars built in the EU and then shipped to the US because of the exchange rate, and IMO realistically most people aren't willing to spend as much for a small car as for a big car.
I do love small cars, and wish we got more in the US market, I just see a lot of obstacles in the way. Hopefully $5/gallon gas will make it more reasonable to import them.
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b.p.
climber
bishop
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Mar 16, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Over 48% of Americans are obese. Over 60% of Americans are overweight.
Most Americans would not fit into small Euro cars...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 16, 2008 - 02:05pm PT
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I am not sure that fuel efficient cars are as low brow or as small as most Americans assume they have to be. A BMW 3 Series is a pretty good sized car to drive and the deisel gets about 39 miles per gallon and accelerates 0 to 62 miles an hour in 7.9 seconds. There is plenty of room in the front seats for just about anyone. Manuals are standard in Europe, but modern automatics and the best new automated manuals--paddle shifters just like F1 racers--get the same mileage.
My gripe with small cars is the back seats are nearly worthless if the passenger has legs and the driver is as tall as me. However, there are two Prius owners in my household, and the back seat leg room is about 6 inches bigger than my Acura TL. It also has more head room in both the front and back. My car is a little fancier and quieter, and much faster, but Toyota seems to have figured out that small cars have to seat four big Americans. With the back seats folded down, the hatch back allows a huge amount of carry room. Now if it only had a diesel engine (Toyota is working on diesels for America.)
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 16, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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Here's the address of a story about why VW isn't selling the new Scirocco here http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=avSfq9xa.jxE. Also, if you find prices of VWs in Euros (I looked a little but had a tough time finding many) you'll see that they're not sold in the US as expensively as the exchange rate would dictate. Assuming they're not making huge amounts of money in Europe, there's no way they can make much, if any, money on cars they're essentially discounting by a large percentage here.
I don't disagree that small cars, or fuel efficient cars, can be nice. However, the DSG gearboxes, while nice, cost a couple grand more than a manual transmission, and a 3-series diesel isn't cheap. As long as gas is at its current price, I don't think many people will see the benefit of spending a bunch of money and driving a small fuel-efficient car (or spending even more to drive a large fuel-efficient car).
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 16, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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I don't know what the Europeans are most likely to do with the rise of the Euro against the dollar. They have some means to modulate the currency issues depending on where they source the components, but most assemble their cars in Euro block countries. VW has been aggressive about expanding assemby into low cost countries, so it is likely, in my mind, that they will be able to offer their cars in the US at competitive prices.
The VW Jetta diesel with a automated six speed manual was offered in the US until the end of 2006. VW stopped selling them at the beginning of 2008 becuase they did not want to decide on the technology to meet the 2007 EPA emission standards. I think they will be back in 2008 or 2009.
Here are the specifications and pricing in late 2006:
Vehicle type: front-engine, front-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan
Price as tested: $24,910 (base price: $22,235)
Engine type: turbocharged and intercooled SOHC 8-valve diesel inline-4, iron block and aluminum head, direct fuel injection
Displacement: 116 cu in, 1896cc
Power (SAE net): 100 bhp @ 4000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 177 lb-ft @ 1800 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual with automated shifting and clutch
Wheelbase: 101.5 in
Length/width/height: 179.3/70.1/57.4 in
Curb weight: 3306 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 10.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: .37.0 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 11.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 17.6 sec @ 77 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 114 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 176 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.81 g
EPA fuel economy, city driving: 35 mpg
Car and Driver calculated the mileage at 42 highway and 33 around town.
Not bad for a very modern and comforatble sedan.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:08am PT
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Our Prius also routinely gets between 48 and 50 mpg.
Curt
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Mar 17, 2008 - 07:01am PT
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A VW Jetta (1.9 diesel bluemotion, 5 speed manual, a/c) would be about $38000 in Germany (including 19% VAT) at the current exchange rate... Any questions ?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:34am PT
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Mr. alien, my question is not polite, so I won't ask it. However...
Americans don't pay VAT taxes on purchases in the US. We have sales taxes that vary by state. Traditionally prices are qouted before tax in the US.
Using the ratio of the Dollar/Euro exchange rate from the beginning of 2006 versus the the beginning of 2008, the price of the Jetta in the US would be about $28,000, (this price includes any taxes VW owes to the German government)not $38,000.
VW sells many cars all over the world. They price their cars to meet the compeition in each market.
Most Jettas are made in Puebla, Mexico. The Dollar/Peso exchange rate is about the same in 2008 as it was in 2006.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:36am PT
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Roger, are you related to that guy who used to drive real fast in Utah?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:05am PT
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My 1989 honda Civic 4 speed 1.3L? consistantly got 40mpg sometimes 44mpg and 38 if i really beat on it going up a lot of hills, stiff headwind etc. Supprised me that my GFs 2003 Matrix only got 24-26mpg. What a step backwards! that thing was advertised at 26 to 30mpg but it Never got 30. same thing with my 2000 Dodge caravan. Its advertised at 19 to 26mpg but the best I have ever done is 24 and my summer is more like 18 to23 Winter is 17 to 19.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:12am PT
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Morning TIG,
The short answer is 'no' I am not related to Craig Breedlove, who drove the 'Spirit of America' to the world land speed record for a short time.
The slightly longer answer is 'yes.' All the Breedloves are related.
We all have been told the same story..."Five Breedlove brothers came from England to the America..."
The truth is 'Breedlove' is a made up American name--not from the 60's in the Bay Area where I grew up, although that would be a better story. The first Breedlove was a Charles Breedlove in Essex County in Virginia in 1693, or there abouts. His wife's name was Kindness. The family moved south and west, mostly farmers, some more successful than others.
A few years ago, based on all the folklore in the extended family, I searched British genealogical sites in the UK for the origins of the Breedlove name.
I found several Breedlove dating back into the early 1800s. All were emigrants from the US. I have been trying to figure out a way to find out where Charles came from.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:21am PT
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Thanks. Just wondering since you seemed to have a strong interest in cars and that triggered the connection.
I remember him breaking 400, 500, and 600 mph back in the early 60s.
Bringing the obvious question to mind, what car uses the most gasoline per second?
What "car" uses the most jet kero per second?
:-)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:52am PT
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TIG, as a teenager, I remember how exciting it was when the land speed records were being broken on the Salt Flats--big time news. Low budget, junk yard mechanics straping a jet engine onto a pointed fuel tank and lighting the fuse.
My interest in this thread comes from my work. The company I work for supplies powertrain components--mostly cam-phasers and fast hydraulic valves--to many of the world's gasoline car makers, including most of the very high end sport cars. We only have a few programs in diesel: I am resoponsible for my company's emission control technology to reduce NOx in diesel engine exhaust. I am buried deep. We are focused mostly on heavy duty truck engines in Europe, Japan, and the US.
Also, my wife and one of my daughters drive Toyota Pirui. As consumers they put a big value on having a high mileage car to do their part for emissions reduction and global climate change. Economically it is not such a good deal and there is some long-term risk owning a vehicle with new and expensive battery technology (leasing takes care of that), but it is a cool car to drive, is very well designed, and it looks good. Interestingly, the Toyota CEO that made the decision to invest in full hybrids spent a billion dollars knowing that the success would only fall on the shoulders of a future CEO. I point this out when people ask me what is wrong with the US car makers.
Once the vehicle makers figure it out, most are betting that Americans will drive diesels. They get good mileage--much better than gasoline hybrids for the way Americans drive--and are a kick to drive (with the acceleration), but the NOx emission technology is not sorted out in passenger cars yet. Maybe by 2010.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 10:16am PT
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Good luck!
NOx is far and away the biggest problem for electric generation in our current mix as well.
What is that smell? I can tell by nose sooner than I notice visually that I am driving behind a diesel.
EDIT: Well maybe second biggest for both, but perhaps more tractable than the first.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
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on the topic of european cars and land speed records, i feel it pertinent to point out that the record for a 4 cylinder is held by a Merkur XR4Ti :)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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Hey TIG,
I tried to find out what components of the diesel make for the distinctive smell with not much success. When I drive diesels in Europe, I do not smell the diesel fumes except in a mild form at filling stattions--never on the road.
NO2 has a pungent odor, as does sulfer dioxide, SO2. NO, CO2, CO are all odorless. Smoke seems to have a distinctive smell. There are also aromatic traces of other bad actors in diesel fumes, but they are in very small quantities.
I know that in LA, the exhaust gases of a modern diesel are cleaner than the incoming air. This is mostly due to the reduction in the NO2 and particulate (smoke) based on engine management and exhaust treatment technologies. The sulfer in diesel has been mostly removed from the fuel itself.
I don't think that most people can smell the 'diesel' smell in any modern diesel engine. The noise level is also greatly reduced--reducing the pressure rise (the source of the noise)per crank angle is also part of the improvement in fuel economy, the emissions, and the slow, long burns gives more power.
As I have said before, the biggest hurdle for diesel in the US is getting folks to try a new one, instead of remembering what the old ones smelled and sounded like. BMW brings 'ride-and-drive' 5 Series to conferences and lets the EPA and other regulators (along with any one else) drive them around town just to get the idea across. I have suggested that Mercedes and VW should only use diesel cars as loners when cars are left for service.
Unfortunately, the relatively large, 4.5 to 6.0 liter displacment, engines used in currnet pickup trucks and large SUVs are noisy. Not as noisy as old diesels but still noisy. They also will have a higher probability of smelling since they have higher power and therefore have higher emissions.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:35pm PT
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A lot of people have pointed out that car mileage hasn't changed much since the 80's and if anything has gotten worse. That must, at least in part, be due to the stricter emission regulations.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 12:45pm PT
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Fullmonty,
I tired to find our if Honda is selling any of their diesels currently, but could not. Do you know if they are for sale anywhere?
In not, I suspect that Honda is not willing to risk their lean NOx trap catalyst with an internally generated NH3 SCR aftertreatment systems in the US just yet. (They need this to meet the EPA and California standards; the European standards are not as tough to meet currently.) This combination of technologies is promising for small engines with low loads, but the lean NOx traps durability has not proved (tiny amounts of sulfer poisons the catalyst and burning it off reduces the catalyst life) and the control of NH3 in the SCR is tricky--high temperatures 'dump' the ammonia into the exhasut pipe and turning it back into NOx may exceed the allowable NOx levels.
Besides the technical hurdles, if there is a string of failures in the field (something like 10), the car maker has to recall all vehicles and fix the problem. When it is basic technology failure, this is very risky.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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TIG asked:
Does anybody ever say:
I am going to buy the car that gets the best fuel mileage in the world.
I am going to buy the production car that gets the best mileage.
Rarely, but yes. I did, and I've been very pleased with my car.
I'm at 85,000 miles, and have had no issues. As I said, I regularly get 70mpg over long stretches. I easily fit all my camping plus climbing gear in it, as well as that of my partner. So yes, it fits my needs beautifully.
GO
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:28pm PT
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In response to TIG:
I was going to buy the car with the best gas mileage. I dont give a damn what others think of me when I drive around.
My wife vetoed my idea and I had to compromise. Ended up with a Matrix. Not bad mileage, but I know the car companies can do better.
So in the end it was a compromise.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:33pm PT
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spyork - thanks for the candor.
Except clearly you do care about at least what ONE person besides you thinks.
GO, so you are saying that a car with the same physical characteristics, but costing 6 figures and getting 5 mpg more would do it for you. Good on, ya!
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Glaidig
Trad climber
Menlo Park, CA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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For those of you with a very efficient vehicle, perhaps you might want to even out your carbon footprint with one of these conversion kits
More info can be seen here http://www.mattracks.com/
Guy
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sgrprince
climber
Fargo, ND
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Roger, an Accord diesel (which we will get for 2009) is currently sold in Europe. To me, the main problem isn't so much negative stereotypes about diesels as their cost premium (I suppose some of that can be attributed to the turbo). My dad drives a 2002 Civic 5-speed that has an (adjusted) highway EPA rating of 36 mpg. A 2002 Jetta diesel 5-speed has an (adjusted) highway rating of 44 mpg, which is 22% better than the Civic. However, it's not going to be as fast (minor consideration) but the major consideration is that currently diesel costs 18% more than gas and the diesel engine cost more to initially purchase.
You might find this link interesting also, including the comments. http://cascadiascorecard.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/the_little_engi.html There seems to be some support for the idea that simply consuming less would do more for the environment than buying a new car every 3 years but making sure it's a fuel efficient one. Of course, being a good American means consuming as much as possible, so this doesn't seem to be an especially popular approach to reducing our impact on the environment.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 17, 2008 - 02:59pm PT
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TIG asked: GO, so you are saying that a car with the same physical characteristics, but costing 6 figures and getting 5 mpg more would. Good on, ya!
I'm saying no such thing. Affordable production models only need apply, for my $$. Furthermore, I wasn't interested in being on the cutting edge, so I waited until they'd been out on the market for several years, to insure they'd worked out the kinks.
That's what makes this all so funny to me. To my mind, I was pretty conservative. Even back when I bought my car in '02, big sacrifices were not required.
But, as always, ymmv. ;)
GO
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 17, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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sgrprince, I read the article that you posted, but not all of the comments. I don't think that the Corolla and Prius are comparable, so comparisons are difficult. I also don't think that any car produced to meet one set of emission rules can be easily compared to a newer car designed to meet more stringent emission standards--costs and fuel usage tend to work against emission regulations.
Lastly, I am not sure when Honda has committed to bring a diesel to the US. Any diesel vehicle that meets the current European NOx standards does not come close to meeting the 2007 or 2010 EPA or California standards. Mercedes is marketing a high end E class diesel that meets the standards, but the details are telling. Very few of them are being offered. They are very expensive ($60,000+). They have much worse fuel usage compared to the same vehicle in Europe.
As best as I can tell, Mercedes is offering its diesel for bragging rights and to create an engineering and business structure to control development for European standards that are coming. US Tier 2, Bin 5 standards in a diesel is very tough for all technologies at any price. In Europe by about 2012 or so--the Euro VI standards--small diesels will have to have a workable solution for standards that are near to the US EPA 2010 standards. So I think that this will get sorted out for small engines within the next few years, but the various gasoline hybrids may win out in the US since the technologies are further along. And the price of fuel is only a small part of the total cost of driving a car.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 05:14pm PT
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Thanks. My point about angels on the head of a pin.
Most do not want the "car that gets the best gas mileage", but rather one that meets a number of needs and desires, one of which is that it be "economical" in a number of other dimensions than just mpg. Motorcycles are pretty efficient as well. But weather, lack of passenger space, operator comfort, safety and any number of other factors, for some reason keep their numbers down.
Bicycles have nearly infinite miles per gallon. Detroit could build a human powered car that was enclosed, used no gasoline or batteries, and safe enough to pass crash tests. But who would buy one?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Mar 17, 2008 - 05:28pm PT
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Last year in Europe I rented a gasoline, then a week later, a diesel small car. The diesel was way better. More power. Way cheaper fuel cost. They rented for the same $. So get a diesel rental if you can.
They have tons of diesel class c type RVs there (France). We are just coming around to this. The Dodge Sprinter vans sell well. Car companies just need to offer them and Americans will buy.
I had the choice of a full size truck with a slide in camper with either diesel or gas, when I bought one back in 1998. I went diesel, it was great. 20 mpg for a 4x4, 15 mpg with the camper on. Tons of power. I sold it to get a commuter car when my lifestyle changed. But now I'm thinking about getting another one and would only go diesel.
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BigNick
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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I don’t think the right question has been asked.
WHO CARES ABOUT MPG???
In a hydrogen fueled car with zero emissions, MPG is completely irrelevant. Yes there are skeptics and I hope they reply, but the reality is a long as we have water on earth…ocean water or fresh….we have an essentially unlimited sources of clean, cheap enegy….
Honda does not have it perfect yet but they are very much on the right track ..and its available today.
http://www.honda.com/fuel-cell/
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Zero emissions hydrogen is not available today. All of the solar, wind, and nuclear electric generation has already been subscribed for non-transportation use.
So no emissions free hydrogen for transportation.
EDIT: BTW if you do a little research you can find the locations of each of Honda's hydrogen stations in California. I think you will find that most have the capacity to fuel ONE VEHICLE PER DAY!
Also you will probably also find that you can't buy one of these, you can only lease them. That way they can take them back if they like.
Also check out what you have to do if you need service.
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BigNick
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
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hey tradisgood...you are correct with everything you say. But its not a matter of technology it’s a matter of will. We can continue to talk about MPG but why? Right now I drive a little 3 cylinder that get 40 mpg. The Toy Prius which gets a bit more..is the latest craze..but really all hype. You see, my car was built in 1995. The year before that they had a 70+ mpg version that was ridiculed for being under powered. Its also a very low polluter, and yet it utilizes none of the
computerized fuel systems of today. Its just a piece of junk that ROCKS!
If we are talking about anything less then 70+ mpg then it is just a discussion of history. Why not think forward?
Go to google video , type in “water car”, or “Stan Meyer” and you will see footage of homegrown electrolysis, or hydrogen fueled cars. Call it a joke, but even the hydrogen economy is a discussion of history too.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:47pm PT
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The real question is what is driving the decision to go with a the car with the best mileage. Is the issue cost of opperation/ownership, or is it environmental impact? Environmental impact is alot more than what and how much comes out of the tail pipe.
The upside of the crazy fuel prices is I'll absolutely be riding my bike to work this summer, better for me, better for the pocketbook, better for the environment.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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Nick, I learned about hydrolysis in high school. Yup, with electricity (DC) you can separate hydrogen and oxygen.
I also learned thermodynamics there and again in college.
If you want to separate them, then rejoin them (via combustion or fuel cells), the round trip costs energy - which has to come externally.
Hydrogen is an energy store, not an energy source. There is no free hydrogen within 90 million miles of our planet. So to get it...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:01pm PT
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The funny, well not so funny, thing about "alternative" fuels, is many of them consume more hydrocarbons to produce and transport than just burning the hydrocarbons directly in the vehicle. This includes electric cars that are charged from electricity produced by plants that burn hydrocarbons.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 17, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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"think small European cars aren't sold here because, firstly, people haven't historically bought them. Even today, SUVs sell a hell of a lot more than small cars like the Honda Fit, Mini, and Scion XA (which according to Wikipedia was Scion's slowest selling model). Americans demand things like power windows, automatic transmissions (which make small engines lethargic outside cities), and the ability to accelerate to well above the speed limit on demand, and parking isn't a big issue in most American cities. "
Many of them don't pass US safety standards, plus the entire concept of "safety" is different in a Euro mind than a US mind. In Europe a "safe" car is a small, zippy car that easily maneuvers out of harms way and can start and stop quickly to avoid and prevent accidents. In the US "safe" means putting as many tons of steel between you and the other vehicles as possible.
Kind of an interesting insight into our different mindsets.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 17, 2008 - 10:23pm PT
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I'm pretty sure the collective net is the sum of the individual net. Think globally, act locally biotch.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Mar 17, 2008 - 10:38pm PT
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Tollman said
"The funny, well not so funny, thing about "alternative" fuels, is many of them consume more hydrocarbons to produce and transport than just burning the hydrocarbons directly in the vehicle. This includes electric cars that are charged from electricity produced by plants that burn hydrocarbons"
This misses the whole point. Our gasoline infrastructure took 150 years to develop and even now barely meets our needs. An alternative fuel economy isn't going to magically appear overnight, its going to develop incrementally with all sorts of compromises along the way. The point of electric vehicles is that they hold out the possibility of a much less carbon intensive form of transportation at some point in the future.
This is important because electricity is the end product of most of the alternative energy production technologies that are being developed right now.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 17, 2008 - 10:48pm PT
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kh - don't be a d*ck. I don't discount the positive steps. I only point out the steps that are negative that popular wisdom makes people feel good thinking (wrongly) that they are helping.
There is NO MF thing about hydrogen vehicles that will contribute to improving the ecosystem, WITHOUT BUILDING A BETTER ELECTRIC GENERATION SYSTEM - ONE THAT IS 40% LARGER THAN THE ONE WE HAVE BUT IS CLEANER ON AVERAGE THAN THE ONE WE HAVE.
Or to be pithy.
THE ROAD TO HELL (FASTER DESTRUCTION OF THE ECOSYSTEM) IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS (of those patting themselves on the backs for their marvelous individual contributions.)
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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Mar 18, 2008 - 01:17am PT
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This is all laughable. ENERGY is NOT the PROBLEM. Global Warming is NOT the problem. Peak oil is NOT the problem. TOO MANY F#CKING PEOPLE IS THE PROBLEM!
As long as our species continues to breed like rabbits on ecstasy/viagra kick there will never be enough.
Replace the coal plants with nuke plants and institute a global one-child policy. Now. Or we we are all fu#cked. You can call me crazy. You know I speak the truth.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Mar 18, 2008 - 08:38am PT
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It's clear some people who own hybrids or other cars with good gas mileage feel justified in driving fast and far -- to the point where their net effect is probably about the same as someone who owns an SUV but moderates how much they drive. But that hardly justifies not advocating for improvements in fuel consumption...
Not sure why you want to malign the motives of people you don't know. I won't speak for you, if you won't speak for me.
Frankly, I pretty much only drive to go climbing. I recognize that climbing is an entirely selfish activity that we all love. And I also recognized that I wasn't going to stop driving to climb. And further, that I often found myself driving with only one partner in the car (a lot of wasted space) or even just myself. So I made the choice to get the most efficient car on the market. Does that sound like a compromise to you? I think it was. But with that being said, I still drive less than the average American, per year. And I probably use substantially less than half the gas.
Case in point, I bike to work every day. Matter of fact, gotta run now.
Cheers!
GO
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kimgraves
Trad climber
2 exits North of the Gunks
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Mar 18, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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When my 15 year old Camry died a couple of years ago, we rented cars from Zipcar for a couple of years saving almost $2K/year in insurance and parking (and car payments if we hadn't owned the vehicle). It was a great deal and one we should have been doing all along living in Brooklyn.
But when we moved out of the city we had to buy a car. I was amazed that in 17 years the gas millage of modern cars was essentially the same as the 1991 Camry. This seems to be a massive failure of the regulatory process. The Prius was one of the only cars I could find that was significantly different - still not enough.
One of the things I learned was that the engineering that could have gone into higher gas millage had instead gone into acceleration. Today's little put-put would have been a muscle car 30 years ago. The Prius too has good acceleration, but the consequences of using it are displayed and tracked by the gas millage monitor in front of you.
So the Prius encourages the driver to drive in a different way. Newton says that anything in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon. This means that if you can use the electric motor (which is powered by battery charged when you take your foot off the gas) to get the car moving it will take less gas than if you use the gas energy to get going. But to use the electric motor you have to accelerate slowly so the computer doesn't engage the gas motor. No more hard acceleration off the stop light. If you do this with the Prius you can get up to 30 mph before the gas engine turns on.
In the same way you don't want to slow down unless you have to. So you anticipate your stops and leave more following distance so you can slow down gradually and won't have to speed back up. This has the added benefit of regenerating the battery. You also allow the car to speed up on down hills without pushing on the gas so as to carry your momentum over the next hill.
It's a different way to drive than usual. One that takes concentration and practice. My dealer told me that one of her customers had gotten so good at these tricks that she was getting 70 mpg in he Prius. Indeed my millage has gradually improved as the engine has broken in and I've learned to drive the car.
I'm finding it fun and interesting.
Clearly we're going to have to give something up to get better gas millage. Whether it be the look and feel of the big SUV/truck for the small and light. Or it be the acceleration defined to be "performance". The Prius performs too but in different ways. I like to think that I'm becoming a better driver by not "driving like a knucklehead".
Best, Kim
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Mar 18, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Kim, I think the need for acceleration is probably legit. You probably have seen how short merge lanes have gotten on interstates - say for example, I-95.
When first engineered, they had lanes long enough to reach highway speed so that merging required minimal "holes" in traffic.
Today, you have the end of a cloverleaf - may a couple hundred feet. Unless you have a real muscle car you won't achieve a safe highway speed before you must merge.
Basically, as has been stated, manufacturers have been building what people want. Anti-lock brakes, CD players, multi-speaker stereo systems, airbags, drink trays, all sorts of doo-dads, and safer crush zones.
Some of these are mandated by federal regulation. In the same amount of time, it is likely that you "city driving" went up, lowering your average...
BTW, congratulations on learning to conserve kinetic energy! That is really key!
It all adds up.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2008 - 12:02pm PT
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"In the same way you don't want to slow down unless you have to. So you anticipate your stops and leave more following distance so you can slow down gradually and won't have to speed back up. This has the added benefit of regenerating the battery. You also allow the car to speed up on down hills without pushing on the gas so as to carry your momentum over the next hill."
This is a dangerous game to play with intersections. But you probally know that.
Juan
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Mar 18, 2008 - 12:50pm PT
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Kim's experiences with his Prius, in most ways mirror mine. Typical milage is 48-52 (and yes, I truth it with miles driven vs gallons put in on fill-ups. Margin of error is very small.
We have a 10 year old Corolla and a 3 year old Prius. The Prius is very roomy (we are a small family and don't tend to over load the car with junk even on road trips). We are getting a new car this year and will give the Corolla to our oldest child (going away to college) and buy a new Prius. Yes, we like the car that much.
As far as power, it has plenty and in getting on the freeways and passing (in So Cal - no truer test) it has more than enough. The idea that you need huge HorsePower for driving in So Cal (or most any urban or rural area in the US) is a myth, but macho guys like to be macho guys.
And the older Prius is perfect for my frequent rush-hour trips to Court -- the car-pool lane sticker has made life near bliss.
Not a great car for dirt roads with any clearance issues -- but on those occasions, someone else can drive or we can walk a bit further. For our lifestyle, a SUV or truck (i've owned both) is overkill 90+% of the time.
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Blaine Harmon
Trad climber
Fresno, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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Chris, I've been driving an 05 tdi jetta wagon for a few months now and I'm very happy with it. At 5ft 8in I can comfortably sleep in the back and carry everything I previously brought in my Tacoma.
A weekend trip to the valley followed by my weekly driving for work usually nets 42mpg. My best result was 47.5 mpg driving from Washington when I picked the vehicle up. Better is possible with hyper mileing driving technique.
The best mileage is associated with the mk4 generation (like mine) as the newer tdi's are heavier and more powerful from what I've read.
If you're considering a tdi, which I would recommend, it might be worth spending some time on the tdiclub forums. There is a lot of information on these vehicles through the Internet that could help with the decision to go diesel.
Blaine
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 12, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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I have heard bio diesel in general can not be used in the new generation VW tdi.
May be true for BMW, Mercedes/Sprinter also ?
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Dec 12, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
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Hey Blaine -
Mind if I ask how many years you've owned your TDI and how the maintenance has been?
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emu
climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 12, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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Here's my question about the Prius: is there a reason other than the American obsession with power and acceleration not to sell the Prius with just the gas engine (no electric motor)? I realize that the city fuel economy would suffer, but it should remain about the same on the highway, and would be able to be sold a lot cheaper. I'd buy that car.
Yes, there's a very good reason for it. Google for "conspicuous conservation prius", see this paper:
http://www.trisexton.com/TriSexton/Follow/Entries/2011/4/22_Conspicuous_conservation_files/Prius.pdf
Basically people are willing to pay a substantial price premium of several thousand dollars for a Prius because it's a way of signalling your green bona fides. If Toyota sold a non-hybrid version of the Prius then it would cut their profits on the hybrid, possibly substantially so.
(I'm a Prius owner. Go figure. I actually like the car a lot.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 12:04am PT
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I have a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI and get 41.4 mpg on regular diesel, my best tank mileage was 44.4 mpg... the car is great. I'm looking forward to running higher percentages of biodiesel in a few years.
If you want to run on more exotic biodiesel blends, or on vegetable oil, you need to make modifications to the engine (injectors, seals, fuel tank) that are beyond the warranty of the new car.
So getting an older model out of warranty would be the way to go, in addition, the engines are not as powerful and a bit more fuel efficient.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
you can get an idea of the variation of mpg, etc, by looking at the Fuelly website:
http://www.fuelly.com/
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jfailing
Trad climber
Lone Pine
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Dec 13, 2011 - 12:11am PT
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I just got the sportwagen TRI a month ago, and I've been just above 40 mpg. This car is siiiiick! I do commute about 50 miles each way every day, so its worth it compared with my 17 mpg xterra... Ive got friends with 4wd, so ill make them drive me to those hard to get climbs...
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Dec 13, 2011 - 12:13am PT
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my ex-girlfriend spent a summer afternoon in Berkeley taking photos of multiple Priuses in the neighborhood. My personal favorite was two Priuses in the driveway and two parked in the street. We got it all in one frame.
Keep Tahoe Blue, indeed
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 13, 2011 - 01:57am PT
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I've had a 2003 VW Jetta tdi Sportswagen for a couple of years.
What maintenance? Other than oil change? :)
Others are right that the older get better mileage. I get about 52/3 hwy, about 37 in town.
I cannot fathom why these are not a lot more popular. Most people who ride in my car are not aware it is a diesel.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 02:04am PT
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I wonder if I could stick a diesel in my old Lambo so the Occupiers would think I was cool.
But it would suck to only be able to go 120 or so.
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Dec 13, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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Great info!
Sweet, sounds like I am getting an older one... it looks like they changed TDI styles in 2007 to new engines?
This Biodiesel FAQ talks about which model years run best on what. Sounds like the 2007's and later work... but they are still waiting for more results on longer term use.
My wife has a Prius. We love it and are keeping it. But I dig the whole idea of being able to run on old restaurant oil (that is refined to pass the ASTM standards). I think it is hard to find really good B100 that passes the industry standards. I am just lucky that near my house some is available from a good processor Yokayo Biofuels. here is a 8 minute video on how they make it
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Dec 13, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
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I'm getting 45 to 50 MPG with my super-reliable 2003 VW Beetle TDI (and generally run it on Sequential Biodiesel)
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Mark Not-circlehead
climber
Martinez, CA
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Dec 13, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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I am looking at buying an Audi A3 2.0 TDI diesel. Sticker claims 30/43 mpg. Very nice interior, price range $28K-$34K.
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Dec 13, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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What Ed said:
I have a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI and get 41.4 mpg on regular diesel, my best tank mileage was 44.4 mpg... the car is great. I'm looking forward to running higher percentages of biodiesel in a few years.
If you want to run on more exotic biodiesel blends, or on vegetable oil, you need to make modifications to the engine (injectors, seals, fuel tank) that are beyond the warranty of the new car.
So getting an older model out of warranty would be the way to go, in addition, the engines are not as powerful and a bit more fuel efficient.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/
you can get an idea of the variation of mpg, etc, by looking at the Fuelly website:
http://www.fuelly.com/
Look at the tdiforums for up-to-date info on bio compatibility by engine type/model year.
My 05 tdi wagon will run it no problem. "Around town" mileage is typically 38 mpg, highway up to about 45 mpg. I drive aggressively.
The wife's 09 tdi does not take bio (unless there's something new afoot).
Her mileage is not quite what mine is, but hers is a race car.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 18, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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Neil Young's Lincoln get's close to eighty per gallon. Surely some of you Silicone Valley backed climbers can go in style......http://www.lincvolt.com/
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