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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Thank you DVS. You are a voice of reason. Louis as well. (Socalbolter).
I was discussing this issue yesterday and brought up the same point. New routes have been going in for a few years now. Why did the OP and other armchair environmentalists not pipe in 3-4 years ago? Why were no emails sent to Ben warning of a possible issue? Had the environmental issue been brought up then.. I seriously doubt the routes would have ever been created.
Ben's routes were good BTW. Far better easy moderates than anything previously put up in the original wave of development. The people labeling them as "choss" and "squeeze jobs" actually have never climbed them. They are not choss and are distinct lines and were enjoyable to climb. I wonder if Louis had put them up 15 years ago if there even would have been an issue.
This is not the "End of Echo". We are on notice. Every person who climbs there needs to be a custodian. Pick up trash. Run off campers. Shut down anyone making fires, don't pick the succulents etc.
Edit to add: Jeff your position is duly noted (over and over and over). Time to move on. What's done is done.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Socalbolter thank-you!
hey i remember when you put on the "ECHO clean up days" BITD! it was a small turnout but, we all had fun cleaning up ECHO's trash.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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"Medusa:
PUD where did you go? Game on? Face to Face!! Climb a thon!!"
I'm going to be in Joshua Tree over the weekend.
Trad routes in the Wonderland. Come on out.
-wayne
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Saint Stephen with a rose, in and out of the garden he goes,
Country garden in the wind and the rain,
Wherever he goes the people all complain.
Stephen prospered in his time, well he may and he may decline.
Did it matter, does it now? Stephen would answer if he only knew how.
Wishing well with a golden bell, bucket hanging clear to hell,
Hell halfway twixt now and then,
Stephen fill it up and lower down and lower down again.
Lady finger, dipped in moonlight, writing "What for?" across the morning sky.
Sunlight splatters, dawn with answer, darkness shrugs and bids the day goodbye.
Speeding arrow, sharp and narrow,
What a lot of fleeting matters you have spurned.
Several seasons with their treasons,
Wrap the babe in scarlet colors, call it your own.
Did he doubt or did he try? Answers aplenty in the bye and bye,
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills,
One man gathers what another man spills.
Saint Stephen will remain, all he's lost he shall regain,
Seashore washed by the suds and foam,
Been here so long, he's got to calling it home.
Fortune comes a crawlin', calliope woman, spinnin' that curious sense of your own.
Can you answer? Yes I can. But what would be the answer to the answer man?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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A couple of you seem to be real self-righteous son of a bitches. WTF is all the bumping here? You feel so damn proud that you keep bumping this thread so you can hear yourselves talk? Still haven't even contacted Ben? You have to keep airing your dirty laundry- slagging and dissing on local bros on a national climbing board? What the hell is wrong with you?
What a couple of screwed up Putz's.
Or at least one with multiple avatars (Butoou =Pyro) You guys should be having this talk via email or in person.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Couchmaster please be nice!
please respect the rock!
see ya out there Bro!
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Just got off the phone with the Head Ranger for the Santa Monica Mountains office of the NPS. He called me regarding this issue as he and I had worked together to secure climber access at Echo Cliffs back in the beginning stages of its development. He is a very reasonable person and operates with a pro-climbing stance, as long as NPS concerns and restrictions are met with and respected.
He relayed the series of events to me as they occurred to date (much of which has been discussed here and elsewhere online already). The gist of it is that there were routes added in The Grotto whose development either included removal of mosses and other vegetation, or locations with close proximity to the endangered Marcescent dudleya plant.
He did mention that he and other NPS officials ran into Ben Chapman and that he walked with them and was very respectful and volunteered to remove the bolts from the routes in question.
There are currently temporary signs in place at these sections of cliff, and permanent signage is being made now. These signs will designate sections of cliff that are closed to all climbing activities. These signs will be installed by volunteer climbers, working directly with him. The sections of cliff that will be closed to climbing are the cliffs on both sides of The Grotto as follows:
Upstream walls from the arete of Game Boy on the south side of the creek.
Upstream walls from Xanadu on the north side of the creek.
All other Grotto routes are fine and will remain open for climbing, as will the remainder of Echo Cliffs.
As mentioned before, we should feel fortunate that we have NPS officials in this area that are willing to work with climbers. We should also (all of us) re-commit ourselves to keeping our climbing areas clean and abiding by whatever few limitations have been placed on us.
Specific to Echo, please remember:
No trash left behind.
No dogs at the crag.
No fires.
No overnight camping at the crag or parking areas.
No cross-country travel.
No climbing in closed areas.
Thank you one and all - enjoy yourselves out there, and be safe.
 Louie
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Thenks Louie!
You have been a tremendous help with the situation between authorities & climber relations regarding Echo, the Riverside Quarry & more.
Thanks for your efforts in this regard.
I hope climbers who visit this pretty area will learn to temper their desire for FA glory, with the very few regulations imposed upon us by the NPS. Did Echo need a couple more routes squeezed in at the expense of endangered flora, while damaging climber relations with the NPS? I think not.
Don't screw it up for the majority of climbers who just want to enjoy their climbing day.
Largo said it well as usual. Get out there for some adventure but be respectful to the earth & to land managers
Thanks again to both Louie & Largo.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Thanks from me too. I've climbed a couple of times at Echo and have enjoyed the resource. Always willing to pick up a bit of litter out there (and anywhere for that matter).
-Brian in SLC
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Thanks very much from The Bu!!!!
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Im sad to find this thread and a bunch of wankers calling out one of the most dedicated and humble climbers I know, MisterE. If half of you had given back as much as he has you would recognize the fact that he and Skip are some of the best peeps around. Get over it, move on.
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dpotter05
Sport climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Was at Easy Street with moderate climbers in April. At the end of the day while hiking out I got out a trash bag and this handy dandy little grabber tool to pick up trash. Surprisingly there was almost no trash to pick up. I found a small piece or two in the Grotto and that was it. It was nice.
David
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Mister E and Skip,
Don't worry, the right people can see through the B.S. The ones who can't...
Well, you just been shown who to screen out.
AFS
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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FWIW...the signs, probably should go too.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mt. Olympus, just one of the MANY Echo areas to climb at other than the SAME OLD MAIN AREA. Strap on your shoes and hike out to Bony Bluffs, Top Hat, Juaco Wall, etc.
Balance Rock
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Pamneal
Trad climber
Valley Village
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Those bathroom signs were a result of my finding feces, used tampons, and toilet paper at the base of the approach gully to Black Face, and under the bushes to the right of Casey at the Bat--- several weekends in a row. After cleaning up the mess several times, I decided to post a sign. Because of the easy nature of the routes on The Far Side, it attracts many climbers new to our sport, who don't seem to know the rules in the backcountry. As for the signs, they have been removed. Anybody have any better ideas to control this problem?
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jtanzman
climber
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Those bathroom signs were a result of my finding feces, used tampons, and toilet paper at the base of the approach gully to Black Face, and under the bushes to the right of Casey at the Bat--- several weekends in a row. After cleaning up the mess several times, I decided to post a sign. Because of the easy nature of the routes on The Far Side, it attracts many climbers new to our sport, who don't seem to know the rules in the backcountry.
...which is precisely the argument against putting in all those beginner routes. You guys undertook this development without giving due consideration to the impact of making the area attractive to a much larger population of climbers. How much noise from drills and crowds of beginners, and environmental damage, do you think the local residents, recreational users, and NPS will tolerate?
Anybody have any better ideas to control this problem?
Nope. Just wish you had considered the consequences of large-scale development of beginner routes at Echo in the first place.
Jay
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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So Jay you are suggesting only beginners were taking dumps, leaving trash, and making messes? Seriously? I used to find trash at Frustration all the time and would have to pack it out. That certainly wasn't from the gumbees.
Suggesting that developing beginner routes at crags is the 1st path to hell is complete bull. Simply artificially reducing the amount of trash by only having hard routes at a crag isn't a fix. It just means less trash throwing people, not that hardmen don't throw their trash around. The fix is people need to pick after themselves REGARDLESS of what level they climb.
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jtanzman
climber
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I don't know, Aaron. Did I say that only beginner climbers are the problem? No, I didn't. I'm suggesting that the amount of environmental damage to the area is proportional to the number of visitors; and, when you make the area the premier beginning climber destination in the region, you'll double, or triple, the number of visitors. And, yes, in my experience, the less experienced climbers tend to be the less well-behaved ones, though this is probably less important than the impact associated with the sheer number of visitors.
Jay
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kbstuffnpuff
Sport climber
State of Confusion
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Is there any weed dispensaries in Malibu? I'd like to climb at Echo if there are, especially because there are new porta-potties there.
I just got high.
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