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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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It's gone
Hope the whole area doesn't go the same way as Williamson
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dirtbag
climber
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bump--let's get the spammer off page 1
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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interesting perspective Medusa
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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From what I've heard, local climbers should thank the NPS Rangers for their appropriately measured response.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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they should also apologize to the climbing community for almost getting Echo closed.
apologize for participating in the shredding of all of the "canyon live forever succulent" from the wall.
link below is the first part: it's incomplete because the MisterE nuked his own thread. but he got pissed at me for calling him out of the Grotto in an email and also i told him to go past easy street because, "their is lots of good sh#t over there"!!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1000142&tn=0&mr=0
"you know who you are"!
RM
edit: i met Gentle Ben Chapman 09'
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Well Said KSolem
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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SCMA has employees...?
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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I think the point was that these routes should not have been set in the first place. Seems like some people (some) set routes just to spray about it later on the ST and the motives questionable. There's lots of good quality climbing at Echo with much variety, no need to go crazy in the grotto. I also heard through several voices that the route setters were pulling plants out of the rocks and leaving them to die at the base.No wonder the rangers were unhappy.
Weld It-yes part of the Grotto is shut down officially-and I have to say I don't disagree with the Rangers
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Manjusri
climber
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Anyone know what the endangered plant being discussed is?
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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We were told by two other people that have established multiple routes recently in the same area (in fact, on either side of our route) that we merely cleaned the route before them, and it has been clearly established that if we hadn't established this route, they would have.
Funny how only OUR route is an issue? Why are the other routes not an issue?
Just asking questions since we are being singled out as "The Bad Guys"
Erik and Skip
Edit:
Your mass scrubbing of the moss on this choss, the destruction of plant life and the sawing off of tree limbs has moved the NPS to erase your climbs, Mystic River and Bunnyman.
What you did to the place is down right ugly and serves no, zero, purpose to climbers.
Get your info right, Medusa - we didn't put up Mystic River, the other ones did
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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And now to quote the route setter of the Bunneymen in a topic posted by him earlier this year:
"It’s all frickin’ ego – if you let that go, it all becomes for the community. Skip and I are proud of our new route, Bunnymen, at Echo. It was a fun line to put up with the woman I love, and a benefit to the community at large. It’s been made to seem less; to seem like stealing, too short to warrant attention, passed-up as-crappy, and a squeeze-job. It is none of those".
And..Mr. E did you ever think that the community is more concerned about the environment at large?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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To clarify further misinformation being generated by some hateful, self-righteous, mis-informed individuals.... regarding this single route... the ONLY route we ever put up at Echo BTW.
Absolutley no "wallflowers" were growing on or removed from this route and if there had been any they would have been transplanted.
As for the other 10 or so other routes that that have been recently established by people other than us... I cannot say and do not condone.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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to quote Justthemaid on earlier discussions about the route:
I'll add- good advice Guy. The plants we cleared were scrubby and probably wouldn't transplant, but those white succulent things most certainly would. I'll take it home or transplant if we ever clean one.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I've never cleaned one of those wallflowers.
Edit to add: I grew up very close to Echo. I do not want it shut down. We had no intention of ever bolting another route there... and after this debacle with the rangers... I hope the others will cease and desist as well.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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MisterE why don't you just admit you made a mistake..say sorry and move on..
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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We have moved on...a LONG time ago... It seems that YOU are the one fixating.
We are sorry this happened. We are NOT solely responsible though.
As for Bunnymen... c'est la vie.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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you are not the entire problem, however you are part of the problem..
Consider your environment
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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this story is all finished!
No attacks needed to be involved just more of a warning because Rangers do patrol. Be nice to the outdoors MisterE , Skip and Ben Chapman.
your outragous bolting is going to get the park closed.
Bolting ended for echo ten years ago! leave her alone. it was hard for the rangers to get over Balance rock!
see you out there! and climb hard Bro!
peace!
RM
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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The new routers at Echo are kooks. Why would anyone want to put up chossy 5.8' and 9' that have to be raked clear of loose rock, and glued in order to be climbable? I bet they don't even have a clue as to the scrutiny Echo is under by rangers and the access issues there in the past.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Just a follow up with some FACTS now that I have received some e-mails.
The specific area that was of concern was the north side of the Grotto. Ben was present when the rangers showed up. After discussion about the environmental concerns... an agreement was struck to remove the bolts. The 5 routes located on that wall were removed immediately and the sign was later posted. Had Erik and I been there... we would have done the same.
There are other issues at hand beyond the Grotto routes. The rangers have expressed additional concerns about climber traffic as a whole along the entire cliff-line.
Problems include:
Excess Trash
Toilet paper/human waste
Illegal camping
Dogs
and Fire Pits.
Obviously- we do not want another Williamson on our hands. People climb that "choss" because it is a beautiful place, close to LA with a high volume of routes in all grades and a valuable climbing area for those of us who will never lead 5.12. Every climber- regardless of what they can crank- deserves to be able to experience this wonderful place on their own level.
We as climbers have to share responsibility.
-Pick up your trash. If you hauled it in... you can haul it out
-Pack out your TP and take care of your waste.
-Do not camp there
-Dogs are an issue. Leave them at home.
-New routes are obviously extremely controversial and may impact endangered flora.
-Absolutely no new routes in the Grotto.
-PLEASE DO NOT MAKE FIRE PITS. Get involved if you see someone else doing it- shut them down.
I have seen first hand the devastation that happened to Echo cliffs the last time a fire destroyed it in the 80s. Everything alive down there could be wiped out in an instant.
Peace to everyone. Let's keep this area open for those who enjoy it.
Skip
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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What a mess this thread has become. The biggest loser in the bolt wars is the rock. We degrade the environment to suit out petty needs. Respect the rock. Do the right thing.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I guess going to ask why someone would feel compelled to build a fire pit, but if your value's allow you to illegally camp there I guess you'd have no issues with building a fire pit.
Didn't climbers used to be environmentalists as well? What happened to that ethic?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Medusa:
"I have On sited almost all of the 12a's and b's and a few C'c and rp'd the rest..Witness by Levy, E Erickson, Larry coty,Mark flecher etc!
You should be able to crank most or all routes at the crag before you put up any route, at a crag your not a local at!!
"
Hey "local"
That's some serious spray you have yourself believing.
Are you the guy that hangs out at apes and directs everyone on how to send planet(11a)?
It's obvious you have issues with the folks you mention and are using this bolting issue to attack them.
You live in the same area, why not man up and talk to them face to face?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I actually suspect the campers and fire-pit builders are non-climbers. I've never seen any campers... just the evidence that they were there. Trash and fire pits. Climbers coming in in the early morning who catch them should definitely discourage them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Isn't that a potted plant in the lower left corner of your photo? That makes it all 'green', doesn't it?
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Brian
climber
California
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I absolutely believe that climbing can help to turn some people into environmentalists. Just look at Thoreau, Muir, Brower, Chouinard, et al. I realize you can debate which came first, the climber or the environmentalist, in these cases, and that Thoreau is hardly the climber Muir or Brower was; but I believe the point still stands.
Nevertheless, I also agree with Dingus that the idea that "climbers (generically) are environmentalists" is one of the biggest crocks of shite that climbers offer.
Let me clue folks in. Recreating in the outdoors does not an environmentalist make. Even 'loving' to recreate in the outdoors doesn't cut it. I think the vast majority of the climbers I've encountered in close to 30 years of climbing are about as environmentally virtuous as the next fellow, some are much more virtuous and others are much, much, much less virtuous.
Sorry for the rant, but as you can tell this touches a nerve with me. That's because I am an environmentalist first and an climber second, even though like some of the figures I mentioned at the outset, I started climbing long before I became an environmentalist. Climbing definitely has the potential to change lives, and to make people much more deeply committed to the environment and to living lightly in the world. It did for me, and it did for folks like Thoreau, Muir, Brower, and Chouinard. However, don't mistake playing outside for environmental virtue; it requires much more than that.
Right, back to your regularly scheduled pie fight.
Brian
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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It was make believe boomer idealization, fat dad. It never *really* existed, cept in preaching sessions like this one.
Not true at all, IMHO. the early proponents of rock climbing in this state were members of the Sierra Club. Some of the more prominent of which were directors of the club: Muir, Brower, Dawson, Eichorn, Fahrquhar, Leonard, LeConte, McAdie, McDuffie, Robinson, etc.
I'd call those climbers enviros.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Recreating in the outdoors does not an environmentalist make
I would second that motion. My last trip to Williamson featured a bunch of snot-nosed I'll-do-what-I-damn-well-please-wherever-and-whenever-I-like punks cranking their boombox which almost wound up in the creek. Good think it didn't for the froggies' sake.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Wallflowers and fragile such like aside, someone needs to learn to spell route.......
Edit: Oops, looks like they have...sorry.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The bunfight at Echo aside, I concur with the above posters. As climbers, many of us have nothing to be proud of in terms of minimizing our impacts on the environment, and to stewardship. We can be a right selfish bunch of bastards at times.
Call me what you like but you still cant climb! And I will say again If you cant do all or most of the routes at that climbing area you have no biz putting up routes!
Really? That would mean that most of those who have created most new routes in the world had no "biz" doing so. For example, those unable to free the Nose and Southern Belle would presumably no longer be allowed to try moderate new climbs at the Cookie.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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It was make believe boomer idealization, fat dad. It never *really* existed, cept in preaching sessions like this one.
"Not true at all, IMHO. the early proponents of rock climbing in this state were members of the Sierra Club. Some of the more prominent of which were directors of the club: Muir, Brower, Dawson, Eichorn, Fahrquhar, Leonard, LeConte, McAdie, McDuffie, Robinson, etc."
The more "environmentalist" some of those folks became, the more critical they grew of climbing trends. Brower and Adams, among others, eventually came out entirely against pins as well as bolts.
Some of those involved in the clean climbing movement of the 1960s and '70s certainly can be called environmentalists: Chouinard and Stannard, for instance. But while DMT may be exaggerating a bit, I don't think he's all that far off the mark is suggesting that a lot of "green" climbing rhetoric is just rhetoric.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I have to disagree with the whole climber being anti green thing, at least here in the States. If you went to European, I don't think anyone would try to argue that climbers had any intent to preserve the rock or nature. That ethic just didn't seem to exist.
Here, you had the whole clean climbing movement. People like Robbins and Henry Barber didn't espouse clean climbing solely for their egos; it was based on preserving the rock. Jim Erickson espoused the ideal of climbing without chalk and ropeless for the same reasons. Some folks went to tremendous lengths to preserve that ethic. Read Steve Grossman's account of establishing Turning Point on the Captain (in the El Cap issue of Alpinist) to see the kind of commitment some climbers put forth.
I'm not saying that all climbers were green, nor that they all lived the low or no impact philosophy. Having said that, I still believe the ethic was far stronger then than it is now, where many people have the opinion that the crags are just their outdoor gyms, bolts, trash and all.
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Brian
climber
California
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Ahh...
You forgot one gig that neither of the above ever encountered nor influenced their respect for Nature:
Hence the qualifier "some."
Here, you had the whole clean climbing movement. People like Robbins and Henry Barber didn't espouse clean climbing solely for their egos; it was based on preserving the rock. Jim Erickson espoused the ideal of climbing without chalk and ropeless for the same reasons. Some folks went to tremendous lengths to preserve that ethic. Read Steve Grossman's account of establishing Turning Point on the Captain (in the El Cap issue of Alpinist) to see the kind of commitment some climbers put forth.
Although clean, bold, low-impact climbing could, in some cases, evolve into a more mature environmentalism, in most cases it does not. I had a good conversation with Chouinard about this a couple of years ago.
The fact that someone places few, or no, bolts is indeed admirable with respect his or her climbing style; however, it has nothing to do with consumption, or carbon footprint, or environmental activism, or any other meaningful marker of a more global environmental outlook. This was one of the ridiculous assumptions of the recent "green" issue in Climbing magazine. "Clean climbing" is indeed admirable, but it is no substitute for a mature environmental ethic, and should not be mistaken for one. One considered look at climbing areas here in the US should disabuse you of the notion that climbers are exceptionally "green" (e.g., SUVs and trucks driven long distances by single passengers, litter, human waste improperly disposed of, consumption of unnecessary goods driven by advertising, and so on and so on).
Again, climbing will turn some climbers into environmentalists. Contradicting my previous statement, I might even concede that the percentage of environmentalists (using that term in a meaningful rather than superficial way) among long-time climbers might be somewhat higher than in the general population, but not by too much I'd wager. The truth is that the majority of climbers, including those who climb outside, are not environmentalists in any meaningful sense of the term. They might be concerned about the environment in some vague and abstract way, but that's about the extent of it and they do little or nothing about that concern. Indeed, most of them continue to act in ways that they know to be demonstrably contrary to environmental health and, if they were to think about it, to their own long term flourishing.
Brian
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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I've been in contact with Ben regarding this issue and he was actually down in The Grotto when the rangers visited and pulled the bolts on the routes in question voluntarily. According to him, 5 routes were removed:
The routes I pulled were "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback."
While I haven't climbed regularly at Echo for years, I would be extremely sad to see us lose the privilege of climbing there.
Let this be a lesson to all of us (regardless of where we climb) to be good area stewards and to make sure that any interaction with non-climbers and land managers is viewed as a positive one.
The future of this area and many others rests squarely in our own hands.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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For starters, Echo was a totally manufactured climbing area to begin with, especially the main area. Without massive pry barring and "cleaning," through which many handy holds appeared, plus enough heavy construction grade glue to hold the USS Arizona together, the is no Echo Cliffs climbing. What's more, all the meaningful development at the main area was over a dozen years ago.
What's astonishing to me is the shocking lack of adventuring spirit, or just simple crag curiosity, as seen by many frequenting Echo - now at least a decade after the place fell out of fashion. In spite of the interesting and varied climbing at other Echo venues such as the excellent Jueco Wall, the exciting coble yanking at Mt. Olympus, the dire and spectacular steep shite at Top Hat, and the short but stout routes at Pico Raquilita (featuring the only 5.10+ splitter crack in the entire range), the modern cragger camps at the old Java Wall for the twentieth time.
I can still remember about a decade ago tromping all around there with Bill L., Dave K., Steve E., Louie, Joe K., Kelly C. and many others doing new stuff. Those were fantastic and good times, and they're still to be had if you have the energy. Why, we wonder, are people still raking over the same pathetic patch of mud rock at Echo, and arguing about it. That's pathetic IMO.
Christ - just hike a bit around the place and visit the other areas. It's all choss so don't give me that shineola that the rock is no good. It's all garbage - that's the fun of it in a strange way. It ain't Suicide Rock by a long shot.
There's still new stuff to do out at Echo if you're so inclined but not on the same damn walls that have been combed over for twenty years.
JL
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Eric Wolfe
my message to you:
Just talk to the locals before you act..
Same goes for Gentle Ben..
We are so lucky to have what we have here in our backyard, let's keep it that way.
Eric Wolfe peace to you, happy climbing, but....talk to the locals
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DVS
Trad climber
Downey, Ca.
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I think that it is interesting that now that the ranger has become involved, we have a handfull of climbers jumping on the band wagon to complain about the bolting at Echo. Strangely enough, you seem to be the minority in regard to your opinion. Every time I've been to Echo over the past two years, I've heard nothing but compliments and thank yous directed to Ben in regard to the routes he has put up out there.Where were all of you before the rangers showed up. Why were your opinions not being voiced before?Why didn't you confront the man face to face and have an adult conversation with him? It's very easy to bash someone and assume what their intent was in the confines of a forum such as this. I know Ben personally, and know that his intent was not to be insensitive to the climbing community or the enviorment.His intentions were unselfish. He was putting up routes for the joy of climbing, using his own money for hardwear and donating his time. A few months ago Louie Anderson joined Ben for a day of climbing at Echo and had praise for some of the new routes Ben had put up and apparently enjoyed climbing them. I've seen climbers come up to Ben and offer him money to help cover the costs of hardwear, which he has refused to take. I also know that he has replaced anchors and bolts that have become worn out over the years. While some mistakes may have been made, I don't think a Ben Bashing is in order. It is probably more constructive to focus on cleaning the crag up and adhering to the requests of the park service. Ben is not just some dirt bag climber that crawled out of the woodwork. He is a long time trad climber with a number of impressive trad FA's and has been on top of some pretty impressive peaks. He was actually given an award in Russia for a peak he climbed over there. I think many of us would feel pretty good about ourselves if we were able to come close to some of the accomplishments that Ben has had in his climbing career. So before we go crazy bagging on this guy, let's try to realize the intent here.......but then, like grandma used to say.....no good deed goes un-punished.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Good point DVS, let's just stick with bashing the new guy - that seems safer.
Whatever. Those involved know what is going on, and as we said, our hands are clean regarding this specific succulent. Whatever Skip "may" have done with a plant we never removed is moot.
Here's another one on a climb we did recently, but did this popular route get shut down? no.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Thank you DVS. You are a voice of reason. Louis as well. (Socalbolter).
I was discussing this issue yesterday and brought up the same point. New routes have been going in for a few years now. Why did the OP and other armchair environmentalists not pipe in 3-4 years ago? Why were no emails sent to Ben warning of a possible issue? Had the environmental issue been brought up then.. I seriously doubt the routes would have ever been created.
Ben's routes were good BTW. Far better easy moderates than anything previously put up in the original wave of development. The people labeling them as "choss" and "squeeze jobs" actually have never climbed them. They are not choss and are distinct lines and were enjoyable to climb. I wonder if Louis had put them up 15 years ago if there even would have been an issue.
This is not the "End of Echo". We are on notice. Every person who climbs there needs to be a custodian. Pick up trash. Run off campers. Shut down anyone making fires, don't pick the succulents etc.
Edit to add: Jeff your position is duly noted (over and over and over). Time to move on. What's done is done.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Socalbolter thank-you!
hey i remember when you put on the "ECHO clean up days" BITD! it was a small turnout but, we all had fun cleaning up ECHO's trash.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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"Medusa:
PUD where did you go? Game on? Face to Face!! Climb a thon!!"
I'm going to be in Joshua Tree over the weekend.
Trad routes in the Wonderland. Come on out.
-wayne
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Saint Stephen with a rose, in and out of the garden he goes,
Country garden in the wind and the rain,
Wherever he goes the people all complain.
Stephen prospered in his time, well he may and he may decline.
Did it matter, does it now? Stephen would answer if he only knew how.
Wishing well with a golden bell, bucket hanging clear to hell,
Hell halfway twixt now and then,
Stephen fill it up and lower down and lower down again.
Lady finger, dipped in moonlight, writing "What for?" across the morning sky.
Sunlight splatters, dawn with answer, darkness shrugs and bids the day goodbye.
Speeding arrow, sharp and narrow,
What a lot of fleeting matters you have spurned.
Several seasons with their treasons,
Wrap the babe in scarlet colors, call it your own.
Did he doubt or did he try? Answers aplenty in the bye and bye,
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills,
One man gathers what another man spills.
Saint Stephen will remain, all he's lost he shall regain,
Seashore washed by the suds and foam,
Been here so long, he's got to calling it home.
Fortune comes a crawlin', calliope woman, spinnin' that curious sense of your own.
Can you answer? Yes I can. But what would be the answer to the answer man?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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A couple of you seem to be real self-righteous son of a bitches. WTF is all the bumping here? You feel so damn proud that you keep bumping this thread so you can hear yourselves talk? Still haven't even contacted Ben? You have to keep airing your dirty laundry- slagging and dissing on local bros on a national climbing board? What the hell is wrong with you?
What a couple of screwed up Putz's.
Or at least one with multiple avatars (Butoou =Pyro) You guys should be having this talk via email or in person.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Couchmaster please be nice!
please respect the rock!
see ya out there Bro!
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Just got off the phone with the Head Ranger for the Santa Monica Mountains office of the NPS. He called me regarding this issue as he and I had worked together to secure climber access at Echo Cliffs back in the beginning stages of its development. He is a very reasonable person and operates with a pro-climbing stance, as long as NPS concerns and restrictions are met with and respected.
He relayed the series of events to me as they occurred to date (much of which has been discussed here and elsewhere online already). The gist of it is that there were routes added in The Grotto whose development either included removal of mosses and other vegetation, or locations with close proximity to the endangered Marcescent dudleya plant.
He did mention that he and other NPS officials ran into Ben Chapman and that he walked with them and was very respectful and volunteered to remove the bolts from the routes in question.
There are currently temporary signs in place at these sections of cliff, and permanent signage is being made now. These signs will designate sections of cliff that are closed to all climbing activities. These signs will be installed by volunteer climbers, working directly with him. The sections of cliff that will be closed to climbing are the cliffs on both sides of The Grotto as follows:
Upstream walls from the arete of Game Boy on the south side of the creek.
Upstream walls from Xanadu on the north side of the creek.
All other Grotto routes are fine and will remain open for climbing, as will the remainder of Echo Cliffs.
As mentioned before, we should feel fortunate that we have NPS officials in this area that are willing to work with climbers. We should also (all of us) re-commit ourselves to keeping our climbing areas clean and abiding by whatever few limitations have been placed on us.
Specific to Echo, please remember:
No trash left behind.
No dogs at the crag.
No fires.
No overnight camping at the crag or parking areas.
No cross-country travel.
No climbing in closed areas.
Thank you one and all - enjoy yourselves out there, and be safe.
 Louie
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Thenks Louie!
You have been a tremendous help with the situation between authorities & climber relations regarding Echo, the Riverside Quarry & more.
Thanks for your efforts in this regard.
I hope climbers who visit this pretty area will learn to temper their desire for FA glory, with the very few regulations imposed upon us by the NPS. Did Echo need a couple more routes squeezed in at the expense of endangered flora, while damaging climber relations with the NPS? I think not.
Don't screw it up for the majority of climbers who just want to enjoy their climbing day.
Largo said it well as usual. Get out there for some adventure but be respectful to the earth & to land managers
Thanks again to both Louie & Largo.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Thanks from me too. I've climbed a couple of times at Echo and have enjoyed the resource. Always willing to pick up a bit of litter out there (and anywhere for that matter).
-Brian in SLC
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Thanks very much from The Bu!!!!
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Im sad to find this thread and a bunch of wankers calling out one of the most dedicated and humble climbers I know, MisterE. If half of you had given back as much as he has you would recognize the fact that he and Skip are some of the best peeps around. Get over it, move on.
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dpotter05
Sport climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Was at Easy Street with moderate climbers in April. At the end of the day while hiking out I got out a trash bag and this handy dandy little grabber tool to pick up trash. Surprisingly there was almost no trash to pick up. I found a small piece or two in the Grotto and that was it. It was nice.
David
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Mister E and Skip,
Don't worry, the right people can see through the B.S. The ones who can't...
Well, you just been shown who to screen out.
AFS
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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FWIW...the signs, probably should go too.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mt. Olympus, just one of the MANY Echo areas to climb at other than the SAME OLD MAIN AREA. Strap on your shoes and hike out to Bony Bluffs, Top Hat, Juaco Wall, etc.
Balance Rock
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Pamneal
Trad climber
Valley Village
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Those bathroom signs were a result of my finding feces, used tampons, and toilet paper at the base of the approach gully to Black Face, and under the bushes to the right of Casey at the Bat--- several weekends in a row. After cleaning up the mess several times, I decided to post a sign. Because of the easy nature of the routes on The Far Side, it attracts many climbers new to our sport, who don't seem to know the rules in the backcountry. As for the signs, they have been removed. Anybody have any better ideas to control this problem?
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jtanzman
climber
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Those bathroom signs were a result of my finding feces, used tampons, and toilet paper at the base of the approach gully to Black Face, and under the bushes to the right of Casey at the Bat--- several weekends in a row. After cleaning up the mess several times, I decided to post a sign. Because of the easy nature of the routes on The Far Side, it attracts many climbers new to our sport, who don't seem to know the rules in the backcountry.
...which is precisely the argument against putting in all those beginner routes. You guys undertook this development without giving due consideration to the impact of making the area attractive to a much larger population of climbers. How much noise from drills and crowds of beginners, and environmental damage, do you think the local residents, recreational users, and NPS will tolerate?
Anybody have any better ideas to control this problem?
Nope. Just wish you had considered the consequences of large-scale development of beginner routes at Echo in the first place.
Jay
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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So Jay you are suggesting only beginners were taking dumps, leaving trash, and making messes? Seriously? I used to find trash at Frustration all the time and would have to pack it out. That certainly wasn't from the gumbees.
Suggesting that developing beginner routes at crags is the 1st path to hell is complete bull. Simply artificially reducing the amount of trash by only having hard routes at a crag isn't a fix. It just means less trash throwing people, not that hardmen don't throw their trash around. The fix is people need to pick after themselves REGARDLESS of what level they climb.
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jtanzman
climber
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I don't know, Aaron. Did I say that only beginner climbers are the problem? No, I didn't. I'm suggesting that the amount of environmental damage to the area is proportional to the number of visitors; and, when you make the area the premier beginning climber destination in the region, you'll double, or triple, the number of visitors. And, yes, in my experience, the less experienced climbers tend to be the less well-behaved ones, though this is probably less important than the impact associated with the sheer number of visitors.
Jay
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kbstuffnpuff
Sport climber
State of Confusion
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Is there any weed dispensaries in Malibu? I'd like to climb at Echo if there are, especially because there are new porta-potties there.
I just got high.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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"Is there any weed dispensaries in Malibu? I'd like to climb at Echo if there are, especially because there are new porta-potties there.
I just got high. "
Great, incontinent stoners. The place is doomed.
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Stephen McCabe
Trad climber
near Santa Cruz, CA
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It is unfortunate for climbers and the rare plants that they like some of the same areas in the Santa Monica Mountains (in state and national parks and on private land). 20 year old routes that don’t have any vegetation on them or new areas that are in the sun enough and steep enough to have no vegetation are better places, environmentally, to climb than shaded, mossy areas. In many parts of California if you asked would someone do worse damage with a chain saw or a brush, people would guess a chain saw. In the Santa Monicas a wire brush on a “dirty” section of rock might do far more severe damage than some one with a chain saw or ATV. I’ve heard there are volunteers working with the Park Service (thank you) and the Access Fund is probably trying to help. I’ve climbed in a number of places, including Yosemite, Tuolumne, Joshua Tree, Courtright, Fuller Buttes, Shuteye, Donner Summit, Ninety Foot Wall, the Buttermilks, Cochise, Stanage Edge, Llanberis Pass and another place in Wales, Millstone, Albany Australia, Beacon Rock, near Troutdale Oregon, City of Rocks, Smith Rock, Vedauwoo, Horsethief Reservoir, El Dorado, and the Wind River Range, I haven’t really looked at the flora of each of those areas that well. However, as a botanist, I’d say the Santa Monica Mountains is likely the area where I’ve seen what seems to be the most damage done by climbers to officially endangered plants. It is likely that most of the damage was inadvertent, but people should try to do better now because of how rare some of the species are.
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kbstuffnpuff
Sport climber
State of Confusion
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climbers and the rare plants that they like
l like Sticky Ricky, and that is a way rare strain!
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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It's great to hear all the opinions out there. This is an important topic and delicious food for thought. Let's keep our Home Crag open!
Happy Climbing
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Mister E on another forum:
regardless, Ben, Pam, Skip and I resolved this between ourselves personally, so why do you feel the need to insert yourself into this particular personal exchange in the same way Ryan has? And to do it on a public forum? This random personal thing you threw out there (see above quote) has nothing to do with the closure issue, so again, I ask - why? Did you just want to defame us?
That is bullsh#t, Dude .
May I remind MisterE who brought this topic to a public forum in the first place many months ago...
I guess YOU should think before you post. Sucks when it comes back to bite YOU in the rear! And your old posting of the Climbers Story is the reason why YOU are in the spotlight here, you brought this attention on..
Sorry dude, maybe you should be more careful with your online attempts to gather sympathy troops to your side.
More the the point-the real matter is what happens to our pristine environment, you really should change how you are trying to get a name for yourself, it could be at the expense of our access
Let me also remind you what I said to you back on your climbers story thread. Funny....I was not so far off after all..:
When setting routes, think about whether or not it is really necessary, what are the ramifications? Is this area already over bolted and so on and so forth. Will the area be around for climbers if climbers keep altering the natural environment? Might end up with a crackdown and a closed area.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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At least I have a name, people know me. You? Who are you? Or are you going to continue to hide behind your Boothole avatar?
Interesting how your avatar was created within 24 hours of Skip e-mailing Pyro telling him to never contact us again.
Coincidence?
Who cares, you have shown yourself to be almost singular in your fixation.
This is my last post to this thread.
Erik Wolfe
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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My name is BuTooU-you can call me The Bu if you please...
The avatar is tongue in cheek-it's the Locals at the Bu!
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Haha Medusa
I'm the 2nd to the right on the wave!
LOL
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Wow I guess that makes me great, average and small minded all in one sentence. The Bu.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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mountain project has this guy simon commenting about that grotto area:
I Climbed this route with a few friends today and were approached by a group of concerned park rangers. Apparently, Mystic River cuts through one of the world's 3 remaining populations of a critically endangered succulent. After the rangers identified the plant for us it was obvious that it was in fact activity by climbers that has destroyed much of this population. They mentioned that Echo was almost closed years ago in an effort to protect this specific plant. We convinced them that the climbing community is not only passionate about preserving the environment, but respectful towards rules, especially when access was contingent on them.
Case in point, the Malibu area is being exhausted
let's be respectful
RM
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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why is it that we superclimbers check our machismo at the door when it comes to dealing with the government? doesn't anyone want to hold the officials we deal with to simple standards of human rationality?
with the dwarf dudleya at echo cliffs and the mountain yellow-legged frog at williamson rock we have a tale of two species--and government overreaction following a long period of neglect, inaction, and total lack of communication with climbers.
the MYLF is a genuine endangered species, but the government has never dealt with the reasons for its endangerment. you can bet it isn't people rockclimbing 200 yards away. the MYLF disappeared practically overnight--much like the golden toad did in central america--from high country lakes, its main habitat throughout california and oregon. so kick the rockclimbers out of the san gabriels, right? i'm sure that'll take care of it.
the dwarf dudleya is an endemic. there are endemic succulents all over the desert and montane west. an endemic is a tiny population which has evolved into a separate species due to its physical isolation. there aren't very many members of any given endemic population, but then there never have been. it's kind of like thinking of lichtensteiners as an endangered nation.
you can actually collect certain endemics for your cactus garden if you can get a permit for it. it's strictly regulated, as it should be, but talk about an endemic as some kind of holdout population--as perhaps the MYLF genuinely is--is about as scientifically illiterate as it gets.
the reason my friend ben put up all those weenie climbs for SCMA softmen is that the best sportclimbing area close to our big city was closed down, and the average jack and jill climber wants another one--bad.
well, i guess i have to add a footnote here. half of that last remark was meant facetiously, and it referred to previous remarks on this thread. the SCMA has plenty of strong climbers, and ben's climbs range all the way up to 5.10d. i'm not that hard a climber myself, and i've enjoyed them immensely.
the part that wasn't facetious, however, is the demand for an extensive sportclimbing area for los angeles. there has been much encouragement from many climbers for the new routes. it appears as though the situation at echo has been resolved reasonably for the present and, once again, there are rumors that williamson might reopen with certain restrictions in place. it certainly has taken long enough to work all that out.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 08:29am PT
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"I Climbed this route with a few friends today and were approached by a group of concerned park rangers. Apparently, Mystic River cuts through one of the world's 3 remaining populations of a critically endangered succulent. After the rangers identified the plant for us it was obvious that it was in fact activity by climbers that has destroyed much of this population. They mentioned that Echo was almost closed years ago in an effort to protect this specific plant. We convinced them that the climbing community is not only passionate about preserving the environment, but respectful towards rules, especially when access was contingent on them. "
pyro, i think your report on your encounter with rangers bears some comment, especially in light of what i had to say about endemics.
i've been climbing at echo for at least 10 years. when i first started going there we had to take the mishe mokwa hiking trail all the way down to the split rock picnic site, then come back into the canyon on the north side of the drainage. the reason given was this "rare plant", and climbers were happy to cooperate. then, at a certain point, the rangers decided to allow us to take the watercourse shortcut which we currently use. i believe the watercourse was originally used there, so it represented a closure, for the plant, and then a decision to reopen it. i think most of us concluded that we weren't bothering the plant, and i'm afraid, in lieu of further communication and attention from the park service, we figured it wouldn't be an issue any more.
i've been critical of the officials both at echo and at williamson rock, but i will grant them one point of consideration, and that's concern over the possibility of vicious vandalism. supposedly that's what happened in the apparent extinction of the maltese falcon. if there are only a few individuals in a given species, some pervert might try to do them away for the bragging rights. good luck with that--i never saw the celebrated frog in all the years i climbed at williamson, and the dudleya has a strong ally in the lush poison oak of its habitat.
rangers used to be a friendly, helpful and educative presence in the outdoors. now they seem to spend most of their time giving out adventure pass tickets. with the amount of climbing activity there has been at both of these areas, you'd think the rangers would have shown up regularly, but i've never seen a one at either, and i've climbed at both quite a bit. in the case of the plant at echo, the slightest effort on their part could have averted all this flap.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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May 11, 2010 - 09:58am PT
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Nice Tony, you nailed it.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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May 11, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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Yeah, yeah chief whatever.
You are great.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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May 11, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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Chief I wish that Ben etc had decided to make already established routes safer...
I think that is the way to go these days in the Bu!
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 11, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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Yo! Backoff on ragg'n on the Chief. Met him and Jamie a couple of weeks back on our eastside road trip over to the ORG. These two guys are the shet and are doing us all a big favor in the Alabama Hills. We watched them two bust ass on the DXM Wall, Schmaltzy and then on the Pillar of Toth. They climbed every frkn route and then started fixing the anchors. They had the system down pat and they know what they are doing. They are both some of the nicest Old Guys you'd ever want to meet. Both are cool and true to the bone. Very helpful about the area and giving out beta on which lines are classics. Keep it up The Chief and Jamie.
Oh yeah, we also met the local BLM Ranger, Dave Kirk, also. Super nice guy. He shared how he is so glad that guys like Jamie and The Chief are doing the rebolting deal. It is making a difference with the local community and the movie industry that uses the area. Now, back to you SOCAL whiners.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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a little further perspective on endemics--i remember this controversy from a few years back--here's one reference:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/SUNLAND+GOLF+CLUB+COULD+FACE+FINES-a0129584539
there was an "endangered" or endemic spineflower in the tujunga drainage and i guess a rare fish as well, but they wanted to put in a jack nicklaus-designed golf course in mike antonovich's district. who do you think won that one?
john long has suggested that we spread out a little, and i think it's a good suggestion, but i'll be surprised if it happens. i've tried to get partners to haul out to hueco wall to no avail. i wound up doing a self-belay one day a couple years ago on john's fine 5.9 on mt. olympus--seemed to be the only way i was going to check out this attractive backcountry. what i can't understand is why FA artists have ignored the immense multipitch face immediately below top hat, which you see every time you drive in. i guess the short answer is inaccessible, but that's where i'd start climbing if i were the first climber in the area.
i'm not out to take sides here, but to point out an obvious trend. climbers like places where there are lots of climbs and they can also meet other climbers. yosemite climbers ought to understand that. josh and idyllwild are great places, but they're both relatively long drives compared to the convenience of williamson, which i believe many of us became addicted to. we've been looking for a surrogate ever since.
climbing is really low-impact compared to taking out wild land for development. i wonder how many endemics vanished under the bulldozers of valencia. if you remember the peregrine falcon issue that galen rowell was so admirably involved with, it's a good case in point. climbers don't really disturb nature. they often have a better understanding of both the resilience and vulnerability of nature than those whose only knowledge comes from textbooks or the nature channel. i think climbers turned that one around and managed to teach the experts a couple things.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
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you may be right, chief, but then you guys seem to spend more energy tool-dodging than i could possibly carb down. i'm quite advanced in age, and i actually lived through an era when concerted action by a motivated public could get results. this was back when they called them public servants. you're probably way too young to remember this.
that bitch in the middle looks familiar, but i'd take the one on the right--if i weren't so happily married, of course.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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May 11, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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OMG I just can't help myself....Quoting MisterE
Yeah, I had a rough week too.
That sh!t just makes me stronger - bring it!
MisterE are you one of the Real Housewives of New Jersey????
LOL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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like the mideastern 7-11 clerk said, "who is 'the man' the black guys are always talking about?"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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but here's a quote for you, chief: "be as grains of sand, not lubricating oil, in the machinery of life."
i doubt you're familiar with the williamson situation. if you're such a great climbing diplomat, come on down and do us all a favor.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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May 11, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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h, I am very well aware of that gig. Been following since it all went down 8 or so years ago.
I actually spoke to Jody Noiron briefly on the phone last May about it while I was hot on getting the 31 year old Mt. Williamson/Baxter SBHS Closure rescinded. Tried to get some insight on the USFS's gig on what really happened down there at WR.
There is nothing that can be done on that one.
Whomever the culprits were that last went in their and did their "FK YOU TOOLS" deeds after being asked by the TOOLS to cease and desist, well, they pretty much did ya all in. Climbers that is.
The TOOLS just needed an excuse to shut that area down for good. The MYLF EI's came around '04 and that was all she wrote.
It is gonna be a longass time before that area is even considered to be access again, if ever. There is a long chain of TOOLS in on that one that all need to go away before that is even considered. They will just keep doing their annual extensions. Just like they continue to do with the W/B SBHS Closure that has "Officially" been in effect since 1979.
And the Fire didn't help.
Here's a saying a wise old Master Chief impressed upon me many moons ago...
"Be careful what young Zero you tell to fk off. Just may end up being your SKIPPER or even worse, the CNO one day!"
Which is one of the reasons why we as climbers can't be defiant in the face of the local rangers here at Echo..
And..
I believe protected species are important
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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not very effective diplomacy, chief, but you might make a good spy.
here's the myth, fellas: species recovery. i was told by the usfuss biologist that there are nine, count 'em, nine, frogs in that little crik. and ya know what? there never have been more than about nine frogs in that part of that little crik. (there may have been some down lower once, but i think they stocked trout down there and they went bye-bye.) the williamson habitat is upstream from the climbing, where it's wetter and lusher. the species isn't going to "recover" at williamson.
this biologist seems to think the frogs will cavort up and down williamson gorge when it's wet and unfrozen, which is generally only about three months during a wet year, much, much less during the more frequent dry ones. i'll bet another biologist would dub the gorge a real terrain barrier. i would at least like to be told why the stream climbs can't be open when the creek is bone dry, which is most of the time. give me a good REASON. (yea, i know, reason is a dirty word. you'd rather just smoke that funny stuff.)
national geographic had a feature on amphibian endangerment a couple of years ago. it showed a photo of enough dead MYLFs in a high sierra lake to put a rocky mountain oyster feed out of business. can't find my copy of it, but here's a link that will put you onto some of the science:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070529-frog-fungus.html
hmmm--a fungus? i know--got it from climber's athlete's foot when they take their shoes off.
a related link will tell you they're putting MYLFs in the fridge at a lab in san diego to simulate the hibernation-breeding cycle. seems to me like frog recovery efforts are well in hand. they never closed sespe gorge when the condor situation became so dire. it just isn't related to climbing activity.
if your attention span hasn't expired, the MYLF is relatively rare in a riparian habitat like williamson. yes, the natural process of evolution (you guys do believe in evolution, don't you? or am i talking to god-in-his-sandbox-4,000-years-ago people here?) is probably taking over and the riparian MYLF will have somewhat different DNA from the MYLF in its main habitat. this is the road towards becoming an endemic, but it's a pretty long one. there are those who will put on their preservation war paint over that. they are all nature channel subscribers. in southern california mountains there are maybe five or six other riparian enclaves for this dear frog like at williamson. my big question, which i believe officialdom is afraid to answer, possibly out of fear of vandalism as i mentioned, is--has this frog disappeared entirely, or almost entirely, from its main habitat? there are lots of lakes in the sierra nevada. if so, i guess i could begin to understand their concern, but i think that's stretching it. i'll bet you they will back down the minute enough of us begin asking intelligent questions instead of sucking up at the donut shop.
do a little homework if you care about williamson. i found out more in an evening of internet research than in all the years of so-called friends of williamson rock, which, fyi, is an usfuss front organization. and i tried having a polite but inquisitive conversation with rangerette noir a couple of years ago, after several weeks of polite but inquisitive conversations with others, and i got an ear-piercing squeal from some kind of device, which ended the phone call. maybe a hawk landed on the telephone line outside her office, you never know. either way, she never called back and, frankly, i'm out at echo now trying to dodge dwarf dudleys.
still with me? let's do a little history here. when williamson took off as a climbing area, that gorge really filled up every weekend. i was a prime culprit. i hate to admit it, but i was a member of the SCMA then and i led a very popular trip almost every saturday, sometimes up to 20 climbers, and we were just the fringe up there.
a small space with a lot of people. if i were a ranger, i would have been at least mildly concerned. but, face it, you can take out endangered (or endemic) species habitat for a jack nicklaus golf course. society doesn't really value these things that much.
you're supposed to poop 100 feet from streams. if you're not at least a 5.9 climber, that becomes a bit of a problem in the gorge, and if you are, right away you find the places where the hardfolk have been pooping. you start to wonder whether our e. coli really aren't that much different from the coyote's or the range cattle's.
but williamson's real friends were concerned. troy mayr, bless his heart, tried to spearhead a movement to put in a solar toilet. i got the SCMA to back it with a promise of bucks. and the usfuss? i think they sit in closets, wringing their hands white in bureaucratic angst when such difficult decisions come up. kinda reminds me of that picture of those three bitches up there. or are they really tools? two baby tools and a papa tool, right?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
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um, don't tell the chief, but that's what started this thread in the first place.
"like, duh ..." -- my valley girlfriend
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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May 12, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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Looks like it is already happening!
The GROTTO is now CLOSED as of 30 April 2010
Chief, do you know if this means that more of the Grotto is closed?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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i climb at echo, bud, which obviously you don't. the closure involves the new climbs on the south side of the grotto, basically what is described in your link. you have to know the climbs and know the grotto to understand that.
despite my criticisms, i did say somewhere on this thread that it seems to be a reasonable measure for the present.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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thanks, med. my ambition is to join royal robbins and warren harding someday in the old climber's home portrayed in uh-oh it's hardman. i think it's in bishop. old climbers sit on the front porch and argue all day. you don't need walkers 'cause they have climbing holds installed on the walls.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 12, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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i've been working a bit and have had no time to check the thread!
please respect the local climbers!
if you're so die hard about the easy routes, you should learn to climb the harder stuff!
clim'n hard BRO!
RM
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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i have a theory. chief isn't a real climber. he works for a new york public relations firm hired by the government.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 12, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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i happen to think the "Chief is a vet rock climber who does bolt replacement at the A/hills".
can't wait to go climb at that place! Good work Chief, what you do is great stuff!
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 12, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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I know for a fact that The Chief climbs his ass off. That he works hard to keep his local crags safe, clean and just doesn't want to see all the work that he and the many other locals in his area crags that have worked hard for many years, to keep accessible to all climbers get tossed by anyone that doesn't care about anything other than slamming in routes next to one another. We saw and heard that from him and Jamie when we met him and Jamie a couple of weeks ago while at the Alabama Hills.
Cool Kats the both of em.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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that's what he says he is, but people get paid to do just what he's doing--infiltrate potential dissent groups and try to seed submissive attitudes. i can't believe the guy--what a wet noodle suck-up.
i can wait a long time for 'bama, a weak version of josh. medusa had it right--the portal has so much more to offer. tuttle used to be pretty good too, and lots of great climbs on lone pine peak, if you're not afraid of exposure or getting too far away from a donut shop. for my money, the best climbing on the east side is out of bishop, just for its sheer variety.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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and did i mention ... the public relations firms always have multiple plants to reinforce each other?
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Slice
Boulder climber
Valley
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May 12, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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what a wet noodle suck-up. tuttle used to be pretty good too, and lots of great climbs on lone pine peak, for my money, the best climbing on the east side is out of bishop, just for its sheer variety. I aint sucking jack bro. We heard from folks at Wilsons and the Gear Exchange in Bishop that this Chief dude has several pretty cool multipitch FA routes all up and down the those crags and the areas you claim to know. He is supposedly really active in the local Bishop and Mammoth crag scene and does constant clean ups and rebolt projects all over the Whitney to Bishop and Mammoth areas on his own according to kats that we ran into in the Central Gorge that know him. They shared that many of the new Anchors along the Eastside up through Clark Canyon are his volunteer doing. The Bama's aren't his only scene. Just saying.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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i use my real name. you guys are all fictions. it's easy to pop off in the place like this hiding that way.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 13, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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i see where the military thinking comes from now.
now give us a first and last name and we'll know you're truly brave.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 13, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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The Chief is passionate about preserving our crags
It's a great thing
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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May 13, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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This thread sucks. Erick Wolfe rules!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 13, 2010 - 09:38am PT
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mugu cracks--easy for the few, the proud.
i hate to use the w-word in this polite discussion, but i was about to take my leave when the job got postponed again. we're trying real hard to entertain you, patey, but you get what you pay for. sing "onward christian bonnington"--might help.
i guess the chief isn't a new yorker, and his name probably isn't of much consequence. i'd thank him for defending the land of the so-called free, but, judging from this discussion, he didn't do a good job of it. it's now the land where you're free to do what tools oh so arbitrarily tell you, and best keep your first amendment mouth shut. freedom isn't free, that's true, and it's starting to look like it has to be paid for again.
yea, that second picture is the only crack climb at echo, and someone decided they had to bolt it. it is a good place to set up a toprope on the two 12s beneath it, appropriately named, for this discussion, geezer and whippersnapper. i acquitted myself not too badly on geezer once, and when i started bragging about it was told that it's the easiest 5.12 in southern california.
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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May 14, 2010 - 02:53am PT
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May 5, 2010 - 10:19am PT
A couple of you seem to be real self-righteous son of a bitches. WTF is all the bumping here? You feel so damn proud that you keep bumping this thread so you can hear yourselves talk? Still haven't even contacted Ben? You have to keep airing your dirty laundry- slagging and dissing on local bros on a national climbing board? What the hell is wrong with you?
What a couple of screwed up Putz's.
Or at least one with multiple avatars (Butoou =Pyro) You guys should be having this talk via email or in person.
Couchy-first of all I am BuiTooU, not Pyro using another avatar, nice try smarttush..
However what concerns me is your morose attitude toward a real concern..and that is the preservation of our natural preserves and our freedom to climb these areas...you seem more concerned with personal vendetta and support of selfish gratification! BuYeah!
GO CLIMB A ROCK
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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May 14, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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I had a long conversation with the chief ranger, Evan Jones, at lunch and he is very supportive of climbers. The closure is limited to the 5 routes on the south side of the Grotto, as Tony stated. NONE of the routes in the current Louie Anderson guidebook are affected. The rangers were satisfied that the routes were voluntarily removed and impressed with the respect and cooperation they received. Rangers are being stationed in the streambed below the Grotto to inform climbers about the closure and to educate climbers who may be new to the area that the land manager wants climbers to self-police their activities at the crag; leave no trash, no dogs at the crag, no overnight camping, no fires, no cross-country travel, and no climbing in the closure area. That's it, no other areas are closed or being considered for closure. Nice comments Tony.
Good climbing,
Ben Chapman
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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May 15, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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stop "strip_bolting/grid bolting inside ECHO"
Please respect the area.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
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This is a great read.
The truth never gets old or outdated.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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LOL!
JTM says:
Over Easter weekend someone decided to mark the trail down to the base of Echo cliffs by spray painting giant fluorescent orange arrows all the way from the parking lot. Although most were painted on the ground (which will wear away), at least 4 big arrows were painted onto rock faces in the descent stream bed/gully. The worst one was painted directly onto the slab at the base of the Grotto.
I'll post pictures tomorrow. I didn't have my camera today.
I appears that some person or group was trying to guide other people to the cliff base. I'm guessing climbers since the hiking groups always use removable flags or tie-tags and never go down the gully to the climbing area. Who the hell can't find there way down a giant gully with an obvious cliff at the base without giant arrows pointing downhill BTW?
What jackass thought this was OK? This is an absolutely unacceptable way to mark a trail. There are half a dozen ways to mark a trail that don't involve the permanence of fluorescent spray paint. This is vandalism pure and simple.
I'm deeply troubled by this and I would very much like to contact the person or group responsible. If anyone was climbing there last weekend and has any information please relay it.
I fully intend to start graffiti removal ASAP while the paint is fresh, but it's going to involve a lot of hauling to get the supplies down there. Anyone who is willing to help sherpa please contact me
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Never been there, but it looks like a cool area. Sans Arrows.
What's the standing turd called? That thing looks cool.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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medusa wrote: Pud ! I have not climbed at the Lame ape's wall since 1992 stupid!! best quote from the medusa.
Skully the entire place is saturated with Chumash indian artifacts.
so if some bone head say's the park rangers don't give a rats aZZ is B.S.
closure is possible.
Carry On!
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