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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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You still haven't told me what created the chemicals.
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Mimi
climber
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pate, I've also been pleading for thread deletion at their inception. I'll try to refrain. This is the campfire after all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Pate wrote-
Science+Math=The Truth
Can I tweak it? just as a corollary:
Science+Math+Engineering=The Truth+Realtime Proof
Yeah, the real-time proof. Observable everywhere in today's world. In everything from aeroplanes to i-pads to corrective contact lenses to recombinant genes. Hallelujah!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Thanks Mimi... this might be the first time that you and I have been on the same side of an issue. People like corn syrup complain about too many religious threads, then they start one. I think thats funny. I enjoy talking about diverse subjects such as religion, but I like to respect others needs and try and keep these type threads from overwhelming the forum. A little balance was what I was shooting for, except I may have been a bit demanding in my approach. Oh well, live and learn.
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WBraun
climber
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Science+Math+Engineering=The Truth+Realtime Proof
Yes that's true, for understanding some of the qualities of material nature.
But not all of the quantity.
There's far far more beyond that ......
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Science isn't a religion
It is the search for truth
Many would say the same thing about religion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Alright, JM, let's meet in the middle since you probably balked at my fish dolphin analogy.
We'll call this an "irreligious thread" or "post-religious thread" (in addition to "belief discipline" thread) to serve as a counterbalance to "Favorite Bible Passages" like threads-- designed specifically for believers at the campfire (like me) who have made their way around and past and beyond the Abrahamic systems (Hallelujah!) yet care about life, the practice of living, life guidance and life strategies, spiritual development, belief (i.e., mental holdings) that is correct, belief that is productive and life-affirming, belief that provides life support through inspiration, etc. and so on...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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choose my own friends, and he ain't on my list.
Never said he was on YOUR list.
He loves you because he said he does.
He died for you. What else could one do?
You can't argue that he didn't exist.
Even people who hate Jesus can't argue that.
You might argue that he didn't rise from the dead. But even that was witnessed by hundreds, many of whom did not believe he was who he said he was (God) before he died and resurected.
Regardless, he loves you man. Sorry it pains you all so. Still not sure why that makes people so angry. It doesn't have to be a two way street. He isn't gonna make you love him. He did set you free. And if you want to try and argue sin then good luck on that one.
What facts are in the Bible, none Ha ha ha. I guess you just tipped your hand. So all those people and places are just made up. Oh man...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Not to sound condescending????
Hahaha..
uh.. okay..
I don't want to argue with you Pate. I don't think you and I could see eye to eye on this subject and I'm in a pissy mood, so I will say good night.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sorry Pate, it went over my head. I'm recovering from Pneumonia and it has been quite a week. I get antsy when I can't get outside.
And for the record. I graduated with honors from the 3rd grade in Siloam Springs Arkansas. With honors means I could go to the potty without peeing on the floor. Beyond that it is all greek to me.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Pate, I don't know you man. I'm sorry this issue pisses you off so much. From my point of view I just see things differently. From where I'm standing he offered "humanity" a lifeline. People/Religion screwed it all up. Everything man touches gets ruined sooner of later. It's our flaw, not his. I can't stand it when people tell me what to believe, so I'm not gonna tell you. I do know for me, it's about a relationship, and it's not a religion. Religion is a man made thing, and I've been in enough churches and have read enough history to know how bad that can go. I don't know what else to say except that you're welcome to your opinion. I know I would never have the audactity to post a thread and say "It's ovah for all you God haters". That would just turn my stomach. It would be a lot of things, none of them things I admire in a person, so I'll just leave it at that. So now maybe you know why it's touched some of us the way it has.
But if I ever do meet you, you're welcome to share my rope.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Roll Ovah Jehovah, and let Jimi take ovah!
nice dualistic arguments destroyed and made into anti religious blathering. never fuk up a good philosophical discussion guys and gals. can we get back on track?
Madbolter1 says...
"then you've got no room to talk about "spiritual states" apart from brain states, which are entirely deterministic."
but we do have room, namely, focusing on the linguistics. The mind is what the brain does. I can have all manner of brain states discussions that use colorful metaphors and flowery language, or I can use the over stuffed language of science, or a blend. it doesn't mean that the mind is determined by the brain, and it doesn't mean the mind is free from the brain. The mind is what the brain does.
HFCS's presumption that we can merely discard our history and talk without language imbued with historical geneaology of religious roots is likely doomed to failure. but give it a shot. write an essay describing your life of your mind and it's relation to others and we'll see if we can find some language that doesn't map to your proposal.
friday beer night and a good philosophical discussion, dig it!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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"Finally, if we did, we'd have fewer religious threads at our dear Taco. Which is what so many of us want. And in their place, maybe more spiritual development (or spirit-building) threads."
What's special about "our dear Taco", HFCS, is our talent for self-contradiction. Congratulations! You have that down pat.......already.
"well thats the same place the Chemicals came from, they were always here, just in a different form of energy"
"You may not believe it you want, but that just make you ignorant and stupid, to not believe facts, but go ahead"
"Not to sound condescending, but did you graduate from High School? If so, and you aren't from certain parts of
Kentucky or Arkansas, you probably took some Astronomy and some Chemistry. If you took those classes, and paid even the slightest attention, you wouldn't ask ridiculous questions."
Sheeez! That's a pretty weak explanation of where chemical elements came from, gentlemen. You only left out the Big Bang and several cycles of star life and supernovae. I wouldn't bring it to your attention....but for you chiding others about ignorance and/or lack of education. Perhaps it wouldn't hurt to take those astronomy, physics and chemistry classes again.......yourself !
"Madbolter1- You're a PhD in philosophy. I'm surprised these ideas are so new to you. But then, the reason science and engineering left philosophy as an academic discipline in the dust is because it couldn't let go of medieval thought and references."
"What facts are in the Bible, none"
.....it wouldn't hurt to crack those dusty world history texts either, guys.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The ultimate Truth and meaning/navigation of Life will always be important and controversial topics as long as meat walks the planet and calls itself Dude. This is a dense reality where it hurts to live.
Religion needs to lose what politics has added to it, and let go of what belongs to ancient cultural influence that no longer serves truth. Human nature will pollute it anyway as we see with the recent abuse scandals.
Nothing is going away and the winds of change just make us need to talk about it more as some resist change, while others throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Supertopo is what it is. If you want pure climbing talk, you'll lose many of the most experienced climbers, just as if you wanted pure sex talk, you'd lose the people who weren't obsessed by what they weren't getting.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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Pate- This is about the 3rd time now you’ve beat me to a quote. Uncanny!
But Karl was on a roll and here’s another one-
“This is a dense reality where it hurts to live.”
Exactly. Which is a main reason umpteen millions, empowered by modern understanding, are choosing (if they haven’t already) that it’s Ovah for Jehovah and are choosing (if they haven’t already) to set aside the old Abrahamic narrative (with its obvious b.s.) in the interest of new narrative.
New narrative. It's time we had it. A new narrative that inspires and supports through a modern understanding (of how the world works). A new narrative that offers life guidance and life strategies for the “practice” of living. A new narrative that embraces the art and science to the “practice” of living. A new narrative that bases itself on the Scientific Story, that respects science, science education, scientific wisdom. A new narrative that spends its energy adapting to the latest scientific findings, not fighting them. And perhaps a new narrative (or even two or three competing narratives) that encourages higher achievement in the "practice" of living.
An important point not lost on many today, esp today's youth: One doesn’t need bronze-age supernaturalist doctrine for any of this. And none of the Abrahamic religious institutions, as far as I can tell, will ever get around to “changing the story” and/or moving to a new narrative from within. Because it's too risky to question their perfect (Word of God) theology and because their leadership is much too interested in preserving their own authority.
I for one look forward to the day when a new platform (along with a new narrative and new language to support it) exists to guide people, to inspire them, to support them, etc. in this “dense reality where it hurts to live.”
When will we have it? I think sooner rather than later. In fact, I think surprisingly soon. Thanks to the info age we’ve entered into now.
EDIT So Karl, do you contribute to a sex talk forum, too? Or, perhaps, did you, till they wouldn't talk about "Peak Oil" any more? Bwahahah!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Jennie- Last night, Fri, there was a flurry of posts that took place in about 20 minutes. It was very energetic. So many were writing hurriedly, often in shorthand figures of speech, probably, and maybe even with a margarita or two in hand. So some allowance for that might be appropriate. Just sayin'.
P.S. And perhaps re-read. There was no "self-contradiction" on my part, esp if it's in regard to fewer religious threads, since I wasn't one who ever called for fewer of those in the first place.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Cintune- One has to acknowledge, however, that the Abrahamic narrative (begun by Judaism and built upon by Christianity and Islam) expressed in your graphic is an awfully appealing narrative. Isn't it?
Esp if you were an illiterate in the 14th century and a patato farmer in Ireland. For example.
Vengence for your enemies on Judgment Day. Eternal life in a much better place (a Golden City) with loved ones. Unbeatable as story elements go.
But this is the 21st century now. There's no going back.
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WBraun
climber
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patato farmer ?????
But this is the 21st century now.
And you're still illiterate ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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True enough, but in those times it was the only game in town, filling the needs for both psychological security and sheer entertainment. That was why churches were so down on playing cards and theater troupes, among other things. Didn't want to share the spotlight with anything other than their own catch-all form of diversion from the harsh realities. Kinda like Disney.
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