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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 15, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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That's what I think.
We're so much smarter now. Because our kids are taking comparative religious studies courses. Because of the internet-driven information age. Because of all its blogs and forums. Like this one.
So we should mark this occasion and celebrate it by pushing the envelop on ancient theology and/or ancient theism.
Of course this means letting go of that ancient Mesopotamian God Jehovah (of the ancient Hebrews) just like other ages and cultures of history evolved to let go of Amon-Re (of ancient Egypt) and Zeus, Apollo, Artemis, etc. (of ancient Greece).
Can we do it? Are we doing it? Time will tell.
No Marduk, no Jehovah, no Zeus
No Quetzalcoatl or Mother Goose...
It's time for Flying Solo. In the pursuit of better practices in the "practice" of living. Our species has what it takes. That's what I think. Of course the naysayers will say this is arrogant. Let em.
Finally, if we did, we'd have fewer religious threads at our dear Taco. Which is what so many of us want. And in their place, maybe more spiritual development (or spirit-building) threads.
But maybe I'm just dreaming.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Mar 15, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
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No more religious threads.. eh?
This is a religious thread. The religion of no god.
Build spirit.. eh?
while telling those who believe in god that they shouldn't.
Mercy..Delete this thread...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Not any God, John Moosie. Only Jehovah.
I believe in Diacrates (Einstein's God) as a possibility.
I believe in Hypercrates (personalization of fate), which I refer to as God sometimes. Try it. It's got a nice ring: God Hypercrates.
If you can personify death (Grim Reaper), you can personify fate or destiny or higher powers (Hypercrates). Our pop culture just hasn't gotten around to it.
P.S One can build spirit (through spiritual discipline programs apart from religious supernaturalist faiths) for taking on life- just as once can build muscles- for any of a variety of sports.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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AHHHHHHHH..... but then where do we go when we die! Too much uncertainty! Must have beliefs forced upon me to survive! Morality draining....so much fear....and the gays! The gays! Run for your lives!!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Well, if we could get ahead, by leaving ancient Mesopotamian theology behind, I'd see them more as "belief disciplines" or "faith disciplines" whose foci would be life guidance, spiritual development, inspiration, support for life, etc.
They wouldn't be "religious" because they wouldn't rely on supernaturalist belief, supernaturalist doctrine.
Eventually, we'd get around to narratives and programs for further support in the "practice" of living. But in the interim, the fact that we lack a language for this newly emerging field doesn't help.
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Mar 15, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Have you discussed this with Jehovah?
Not sure He's down with it, despite what your brain thinks.
Can we all just believe that Pink is really Blue? It'd be so much easier.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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HFCS says, as he starts yet ANOTHER thread about the very Jehovah he decries: "Finally, if we did, we'd have fewer religious threads at our dear Taco. Which is what so many of us want."
Hahahahahahaha
Long breath....
Hahahahahahahaha.....
Hahahahahahaha
The sweet irony!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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This is a religious thread. The religion of no god.
True. This is a religious (-related) thread. In the long run to get rid of religious (supernaturalist) threads. Any true problem solver knows that solutions are often counter-intuitive or paradoxical in form.
"The religion of no god." False. Reminds me of that other claim that traditioanl theists like to steer the conversation with, namely that atheism is a religion.
Atheism is no more a religion than not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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HFCS says, "They wouldn't be "religious" because they wouldn't rely on supernaturalist belief, supernaturalist doctrine."
So, you want "spiritual" but without any reference to "spirit." After all, you're clearly a materialist, so all you want to talk about is brain states rather than "spiritual" states. But, as I mentioned before to you, brain states are entirely deterministic, and, again, I'm happy to trot out all the Nobel-prize-winning scientists you want to make this point for me. If you are a materialist/naturalist on this subject, then you've got no room to talk about "spiritual states" apart from brain states, which are entirely deterministic.
So, "meditate" all you want, contemplate all you want, be as "spiritual" as you want in deterministic/materialistic fashion. Maximum entropy's coming, and meanwhile your brain does whatever it does, and YOU have no control over it or the outcome.
Your world view is barren, fatalistic, and spirit-less. All this fluff about values and being "spiritual" is just fictional day-dreaming nonsense, and you will not find sympathy with it in the mainstream scientific community you use as your beacon of rationality.
You can't have it both ways. Either be intellectually honest about the entailments of your world view, or admit that your world view is inadequate to account for the REAL experiences and entities you want to give SOME credence to.
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adventurous one
Trad climber
Truckee Ca.
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Mar 15, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Oh please, not another religious thread. This is a climbing forumn. (Had hoped this was going to be humorous, or I would not have wasted the time to open it) Please delete this thread.
People who have 361 posts without ONE of them having anything to do with climbing should be booted from this forum. Who cares what you think about God. Who cares what I think about God on a climbing forumn. Go find a "GOD forumn" somewhere.
Gym climber from a full silo in Iowa:
Come out to the valley and do an A5 route on El Cap, you'll be praying to Zeus, Johovah, and Mother Goose. (And you might even have something to contribute to a climbers forumn)
Climbers come from all religious/ non religious backgrounds. Why stir the pot here and waste space on the first page of a fun CLIMBING site. Those that do care intensely about their religion will feel offended, those who don't just don't care what anyone else thinks.
End of rant. Back to climbing, (where we all get along) please.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Ah, Madbolter, I'm glad I was able to draw you out.
Last night or the night before you identified yourself for the first time as a Christian. Right? Just want to know your stance (specifically what kind of Christian you are) before we mix it up.
So, you want "spiritual" but without any reference to "spirit."
Not at all. I believe in carnate spirit. Which is flesh-based, flesh-driven spirit. I believe in carnate spirituality. I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. My dog (Steve) is also a spiritual being. But he's having a canine experience.
(This shows how religious institutions and religious use of language mucks things up.)
Distinguish between different kinds of spirit. Carnate spirit. Ghostly spirit. I believe in carnate spirit [< Latin, spirare, to breathe], not ghostly spirits.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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"Atheism is no more a religion than not collecting stamps is a hobby."
BAD analogy!
"Not collective stamps" doesn't then attempt to account for all sorts of sticky, valuable, mail-promoting, communicating entities! By contrast, atheism, as this very thread reveals, DOES attempt to account for all sorts of "spiritual" (whatever THAT can mean), ethical, and experiential entities and relations. It is indeed an ALTERNATIVE account of these entities and relations, and thus clearly fits in the "religious" sphere insofar as it does this.
If you really want to "not collect stamps," then delete this thread and quit talking about it. "NOT-stamp-collectors" don't give a rip about stamp collectors, and they don't attempt to provide the "error theory" about what all supposedly goes wrong with stamp collecting!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Madbolter1- You're a PhD in philosophy. I'm surprised these ideas are so new to you. But then, the reason science and engineering left philosophy as an academic discipline in the dust is because it couldn't let go of medieval thought and references.
EDIT 12:34p Madbolter1 wrote-
"The reason I have not been willing to "engage" with you in the past, HFCS, is because..."
Nice try at reframing it. Nice try at steering the conversation. (I've read Frank Luntz, too.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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The reason I have not been willing to "engage" with you in the past, HFCS, is because of blatantly ridiculous statements like your last post. That last post was so utterly ridiculous on so many levels that it is clear that your ignorance knows no bounds. Waste of my time.
Bye, bye now.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Mar 15, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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"Meditation has nothing to do with spirituality." Tell that to the eastern religions that think it is the foundation/key/gateway to genuine spirituality. They think that you're getting in touch with a lot more than just your own mind when you meditate properly, unless by "your own mind" you are also including the cosmic consciousness; but, then, "your own mind" becomes a misleading phrase, as the eastern religions advocate you losing your own sense of self via meditation, which really undoes the "your own" part of the phrase.
Your point about the "detriment" was well-taken and is just part of the ridiculousness to which I referred earlier.
Why is it hard to believe that I'm a philosopher? That "hard to believe" could be taken so many ways, so I don't want to presume that I understand your perspective.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 15, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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"The religion of no god."
This is what happens when you try this nonsense, you become the imitator "god".
You try and take his place and tell everyone what they need to do. You tell them you need no god nor any religion. Unbeknown to you, you've just created another stupid religion.
Since you really have no clue of how the whole cosmic creation works and you are subject to the four main faults of the conditioned living entity (we commit mistakes, we are illusioned, our sense are imperfect, and we cheat.
Thus you will be guaranteed to fuk everything up you touch ultimately.
This why I call you a fool ...........
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Mar 15, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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AAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhh....once again Werner says it so well. Thanks Werner!
Now can we get back to climbing related stuff.
Peace
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Braun- You're so far out there in your fatalistic nihilistic philosophy why get yourself up in the morning anymore?
Reframe it.
You can "believe in" knowledge systems that don't rely on supernaturalist doctrines. In this day and age especially. You can trust them. You can have "faith" in them. I do when I go climbing and trust in my gear, for eg, or when I take a plane across country. Together, belief in these knowledge systems can be called one's belief discipline. Or at least a part of it.
And a "belief discipline" can support one in his "practice" of living as surely as protection supports a rock climber. In this way, I'm a believer and I have a belief discipline. In the interest of better practices in the "practice" of living.
One of the problems we face: we haven't institutionalized this modern way of thinking and doing. It takes time. But a field will come along. With a name. Sooner rather than later. And it will have its own language. Just as rockclimbing has its own language. Just as electronics and computers have their own language.
And all "religion-related" stuff though not religious will be easier to talk about.
That's my faith (aka trust). But it's no supernaturalist blind faith in any ancient Mesopotamian God (Hebrew or otherwise). It's a new kind of faith, a convalent faith, meaning strong in reason and knowledge.
I have faith in my cams and rope and sit harness and partner and there's nothing ol' time religious or ol' time supernaturalist about it. Tho the naysayers like to say so (always bringing it back to religion since this is what they want in the first place) and use their language to muck up the waters.
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Mar 15, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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Mankind will always comprehend things he can not see, and believe things he can not comprehend.
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