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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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The new routers at Echo are kooks. Why would anyone want to put up chossy 5.8' and 9' that have to be raked clear of loose rock, and glued in order to be climbable? I bet they don't even have a clue as to the scrutiny Echo is under by rangers and the access issues there in the past.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Just a follow up with some FACTS now that I have received some e-mails.
The specific area that was of concern was the north side of the Grotto. Ben was present when the rangers showed up. After discussion about the environmental concerns... an agreement was struck to remove the bolts. The 5 routes located on that wall were removed immediately and the sign was later posted. Had Erik and I been there... we would have done the same.
There are other issues at hand beyond the Grotto routes. The rangers have expressed additional concerns about climber traffic as a whole along the entire cliff-line.
Problems include:
Excess Trash
Toilet paper/human waste
Illegal camping
Dogs
and Fire Pits.
Obviously- we do not want another Williamson on our hands. People climb that "choss" because it is a beautiful place, close to LA with a high volume of routes in all grades and a valuable climbing area for those of us who will never lead 5.12. Every climber- regardless of what they can crank- deserves to be able to experience this wonderful place on their own level.
We as climbers have to share responsibility.
-Pick up your trash. If you hauled it in... you can haul it out
-Pack out your TP and take care of your waste.
-Do not camp there
-Dogs are an issue. Leave them at home.
-New routes are obviously extremely controversial and may impact endangered flora.
-Absolutely no new routes in the Grotto.
-PLEASE DO NOT MAKE FIRE PITS. Get involved if you see someone else doing it- shut them down.
I have seen first hand the devastation that happened to Echo cliffs the last time a fire destroyed it in the 80s. Everything alive down there could be wiped out in an instant.
Peace to everyone. Let's keep this area open for those who enjoy it.
Skip
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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What a mess this thread has become. The biggest loser in the bolt wars is the rock. We degrade the environment to suit out petty needs. Respect the rock. Do the right thing.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I guess going to ask why someone would feel compelled to build a fire pit, but if your value's allow you to illegally camp there I guess you'd have no issues with building a fire pit.
Didn't climbers used to be environmentalists as well? What happened to that ethic?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Medusa:
"I have On sited almost all of the 12a's and b's and a few C'c and rp'd the rest..Witness by Levy, E Erickson, Larry coty,Mark flecher etc!
You should be able to crank most or all routes at the crag before you put up any route, at a crag your not a local at!!
"
Hey "local"
That's some serious spray you have yourself believing.
Are you the guy that hangs out at apes and directs everyone on how to send planet(11a)?
It's obvious you have issues with the folks you mention and are using this bolting issue to attack them.
You live in the same area, why not man up and talk to them face to face?
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I actually suspect the campers and fire-pit builders are non-climbers. I've never seen any campers... just the evidence that they were there. Trash and fire pits. Climbers coming in in the early morning who catch them should definitely discourage them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Isn't that a potted plant in the lower left corner of your photo? That makes it all 'green', doesn't it?
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Brian
climber
California
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I absolutely believe that climbing can help to turn some people into environmentalists. Just look at Thoreau, Muir, Brower, Chouinard, et al. I realize you can debate which came first, the climber or the environmentalist, in these cases, and that Thoreau is hardly the climber Muir or Brower was; but I believe the point still stands.
Nevertheless, I also agree with Dingus that the idea that "climbers (generically) are environmentalists" is one of the biggest crocks of shite that climbers offer.
Let me clue folks in. Recreating in the outdoors does not an environmentalist make. Even 'loving' to recreate in the outdoors doesn't cut it. I think the vast majority of the climbers I've encountered in close to 30 years of climbing are about as environmentally virtuous as the next fellow, some are much more virtuous and others are much, much, much less virtuous.
Sorry for the rant, but as you can tell this touches a nerve with me. That's because I am an environmentalist first and an climber second, even though like some of the figures I mentioned at the outset, I started climbing long before I became an environmentalist. Climbing definitely has the potential to change lives, and to make people much more deeply committed to the environment and to living lightly in the world. It did for me, and it did for folks like Thoreau, Muir, Brower, and Chouinard. However, don't mistake playing outside for environmental virtue; it requires much more than that.
Right, back to your regularly scheduled pie fight.
Brian
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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It was make believe boomer idealization, fat dad. It never *really* existed, cept in preaching sessions like this one.
Not true at all, IMHO. the early proponents of rock climbing in this state were members of the Sierra Club. Some of the more prominent of which were directors of the club: Muir, Brower, Dawson, Eichorn, Fahrquhar, Leonard, LeConte, McAdie, McDuffie, Robinson, etc.
I'd call those climbers enviros.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Recreating in the outdoors does not an environmentalist make
I would second that motion. My last trip to Williamson featured a bunch of snot-nosed I'll-do-what-I-damn-well-please-wherever-and-whenever-I-like punks cranking their boombox which almost wound up in the creek. Good think it didn't for the froggies' sake.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Wallflowers and fragile such like aside, someone needs to learn to spell route.......
Edit: Oops, looks like they have...sorry.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The bunfight at Echo aside, I concur with the above posters. As climbers, many of us have nothing to be proud of in terms of minimizing our impacts on the environment, and to stewardship. We can be a right selfish bunch of bastards at times.
Call me what you like but you still cant climb! And I will say again If you cant do all or most of the routes at that climbing area you have no biz putting up routes!
Really? That would mean that most of those who have created most new routes in the world had no "biz" doing so. For example, those unable to free the Nose and Southern Belle would presumably no longer be allowed to try moderate new climbs at the Cookie.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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It was make believe boomer idealization, fat dad. It never *really* existed, cept in preaching sessions like this one.
"Not true at all, IMHO. the early proponents of rock climbing in this state were members of the Sierra Club. Some of the more prominent of which were directors of the club: Muir, Brower, Dawson, Eichorn, Fahrquhar, Leonard, LeConte, McAdie, McDuffie, Robinson, etc."
The more "environmentalist" some of those folks became, the more critical they grew of climbing trends. Brower and Adams, among others, eventually came out entirely against pins as well as bolts.
Some of those involved in the clean climbing movement of the 1960s and '70s certainly can be called environmentalists: Chouinard and Stannard, for instance. But while DMT may be exaggerating a bit, I don't think he's all that far off the mark is suggesting that a lot of "green" climbing rhetoric is just rhetoric.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I have to disagree with the whole climber being anti green thing, at least here in the States. If you went to European, I don't think anyone would try to argue that climbers had any intent to preserve the rock or nature. That ethic just didn't seem to exist.
Here, you had the whole clean climbing movement. People like Robbins and Henry Barber didn't espouse clean climbing solely for their egos; it was based on preserving the rock. Jim Erickson espoused the ideal of climbing without chalk and ropeless for the same reasons. Some folks went to tremendous lengths to preserve that ethic. Read Steve Grossman's account of establishing Turning Point on the Captain (in the El Cap issue of Alpinist) to see the kind of commitment some climbers put forth.
I'm not saying that all climbers were green, nor that they all lived the low or no impact philosophy. Having said that, I still believe the ethic was far stronger then than it is now, where many people have the opinion that the crags are just their outdoor gyms, bolts, trash and all.
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Brian
climber
California
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Ahh...
You forgot one gig that neither of the above ever encountered nor influenced their respect for Nature:
Hence the qualifier "some."
Here, you had the whole clean climbing movement. People like Robbins and Henry Barber didn't espouse clean climbing solely for their egos; it was based on preserving the rock. Jim Erickson espoused the ideal of climbing without chalk and ropeless for the same reasons. Some folks went to tremendous lengths to preserve that ethic. Read Steve Grossman's account of establishing Turning Point on the Captain (in the El Cap issue of Alpinist) to see the kind of commitment some climbers put forth.
Although clean, bold, low-impact climbing could, in some cases, evolve into a more mature environmentalism, in most cases it does not. I had a good conversation with Chouinard about this a couple of years ago.
The fact that someone places few, or no, bolts is indeed admirable with respect his or her climbing style; however, it has nothing to do with consumption, or carbon footprint, or environmental activism, or any other meaningful marker of a more global environmental outlook. This was one of the ridiculous assumptions of the recent "green" issue in Climbing magazine. "Clean climbing" is indeed admirable, but it is no substitute for a mature environmental ethic, and should not be mistaken for one. One considered look at climbing areas here in the US should disabuse you of the notion that climbers are exceptionally "green" (e.g., SUVs and trucks driven long distances by single passengers, litter, human waste improperly disposed of, consumption of unnecessary goods driven by advertising, and so on and so on).
Again, climbing will turn some climbers into environmentalists. Contradicting my previous statement, I might even concede that the percentage of environmentalists (using that term in a meaningful rather than superficial way) among long-time climbers might be somewhat higher than in the general population, but not by too much I'd wager. The truth is that the majority of climbers, including those who climb outside, are not environmentalists in any meaningful sense of the term. They might be concerned about the environment in some vague and abstract way, but that's about the extent of it and they do little or nothing about that concern. Indeed, most of them continue to act in ways that they know to be demonstrably contrary to environmental health and, if they were to think about it, to their own long term flourishing.
Brian
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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I've been in contact with Ben regarding this issue and he was actually down in The Grotto when the rangers visited and pulled the bolts on the routes in question voluntarily. According to him, 5 routes were removed:
The routes I pulled were "Mystic River," "Bunnymen," "Garden of Expectations," "Stairway to Heaven," and "Puffing Hunchback."
While I haven't climbed regularly at Echo for years, I would be extremely sad to see us lose the privilege of climbing there.
Let this be a lesson to all of us (regardless of where we climb) to be good area stewards and to make sure that any interaction with non-climbers and land managers is viewed as a positive one.
The future of this area and many others rests squarely in our own hands.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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For starters, Echo was a totally manufactured climbing area to begin with, especially the main area. Without massive pry barring and "cleaning," through which many handy holds appeared, plus enough heavy construction grade glue to hold the USS Arizona together, the is no Echo Cliffs climbing. What's more, all the meaningful development at the main area was over a dozen years ago.
What's astonishing to me is the shocking lack of adventuring spirit, or just simple crag curiosity, as seen by many frequenting Echo - now at least a decade after the place fell out of fashion. In spite of the interesting and varied climbing at other Echo venues such as the excellent Jueco Wall, the exciting coble yanking at Mt. Olympus, the dire and spectacular steep shite at Top Hat, and the short but stout routes at Pico Raquilita (featuring the only 5.10+ splitter crack in the entire range), the modern cragger camps at the old Java Wall for the twentieth time.
I can still remember about a decade ago tromping all around there with Bill L., Dave K., Steve E., Louie, Joe K., Kelly C. and many others doing new stuff. Those were fantastic and good times, and they're still to be had if you have the energy. Why, we wonder, are people still raking over the same pathetic patch of mud rock at Echo, and arguing about it. That's pathetic IMO.
Christ - just hike a bit around the place and visit the other areas. It's all choss so don't give me that shineola that the rock is no good. It's all garbage - that's the fun of it in a strange way. It ain't Suicide Rock by a long shot.
There's still new stuff to do out at Echo if you're so inclined but not on the same damn walls that have been combed over for twenty years.
JL
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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Eric Wolfe
my message to you:
Just talk to the locals before you act..
Same goes for Gentle Ben..
We are so lucky to have what we have here in our backyard, let's keep it that way.
Eric Wolfe peace to you, happy climbing, but....talk to the locals
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DVS
Trad climber
Downey, Ca.
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I think that it is interesting that now that the ranger has become involved, we have a handfull of climbers jumping on the band wagon to complain about the bolting at Echo. Strangely enough, you seem to be the minority in regard to your opinion. Every time I've been to Echo over the past two years, I've heard nothing but compliments and thank yous directed to Ben in regard to the routes he has put up out there.Where were all of you before the rangers showed up. Why were your opinions not being voiced before?Why didn't you confront the man face to face and have an adult conversation with him? It's very easy to bash someone and assume what their intent was in the confines of a forum such as this. I know Ben personally, and know that his intent was not to be insensitive to the climbing community or the enviorment.His intentions were unselfish. He was putting up routes for the joy of climbing, using his own money for hardwear and donating his time. A few months ago Louie Anderson joined Ben for a day of climbing at Echo and had praise for some of the new routes Ben had put up and apparently enjoyed climbing them. I've seen climbers come up to Ben and offer him money to help cover the costs of hardwear, which he has refused to take. I also know that he has replaced anchors and bolts that have become worn out over the years. While some mistakes may have been made, I don't think a Ben Bashing is in order. It is probably more constructive to focus on cleaning the crag up and adhering to the requests of the park service. Ben is not just some dirt bag climber that crawled out of the woodwork. He is a long time trad climber with a number of impressive trad FA's and has been on top of some pretty impressive peaks. He was actually given an award in Russia for a peak he climbed over there. I think many of us would feel pretty good about ourselves if we were able to come close to some of the accomplishments that Ben has had in his climbing career. So before we go crazy bagging on this guy, let's try to realize the intent here.......but then, like grandma used to say.....no good deed goes un-punished.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Good point DVS, let's just stick with bashing the new guy - that seems safer.
Whatever. Those involved know what is going on, and as we said, our hands are clean regarding this specific succulent. Whatever Skip "may" have done with a plant we never removed is moot.
Here's another one on a climb we did recently, but did this popular route get shut down? no.
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