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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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With 2,110 posts, that must be more or less one post for every vertical foot the climb ascends.
The SuperTopo department of useless statistics strikes again. :-)
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Hummm....Somethings fishy here.
Are some posters not really reading the posts that they are responding to?
Or are they reading into these posts and.......projecting?
GROW UP!
EDIT: POST 2112 RUSH RULES!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What do that many quality bolts cost anyway. I'd be pissed too if I invested that much time and energy in something and somebody came and screwed it up.
And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Peace
karl
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Karl wrote:And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
Choppers for the most part are sneaking little slimes who have the backbone of a jellyfish.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Kinda like rap bolters?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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LOL! Way to keep the party going...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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All bolts will be chopped in the end.
Anyone recall the controversy on the Dru: in 1975 Thomas Gross soloed a new route (with his guitar!) and placed an unprecedented 68 bolts. People were livid. Then in 1997, a massive 300' high chuck of rock fell off above the mid-way point and erased the route.
It make take a few millenia for Half Dome, but give it time, the human monuments will be someday be gone.
In the meantime, you might as well enjoy the climbs.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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I've resisted the urge to post up on this til now.
I read the original write up when out and didn't have a problem with the style even though it was not my style (which is not relevant to this discussion). It wasn't my ascent.
I find all this talk about bolt chopping disturbing. I've done FAs without bolts and had others place bolts on subsequent ascents. I haven't run out to chop the "offending" bolt nor have I advocated someone else doing so. Their actions had no affect on my ascent.
I will never climb Growing Up. I'm too old and have too many other things going in my life to make it a priority. Sean and Doug's actions have no real affect on my life.
If you aren't going to climb the route, the same is likely true. Their actions have had no real affect on your life, either.
If you are going to climb the route, and the number of bolts offends you, don't clip them. Climb it your way and make it your own ascent.
Or climb something else in your own seemingly superior style.
All this talk of bolt chopping is simply ego on overdrive. Get over it. The horse is dead.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Can I just ask one innocent, honest and serious question?
The last time I was in the Valley (last Sept.) my buddy and I were talking about climbing the Prow with a Czech guy we met. The topic of fixed gear (copperheads and such) came up, and it was explained to me that the Prow is rated 5.6 C2 only if the fixed heads are still in place. So if somebody took a fall, and blew-out the fixed heads, the rating goes way up until somebody with heads fixes them again (could be the faller, could be somebody else).
I have been wondering, since I stumbled into this discussion, If this is fixed gear that we are talking about, and it periodically has to be pounded back into functionality, isn't that more damaging in the long run than placing a bolt right next to where the fixed gear was, and making it (mostly) permanent?
I honestly don't get why we keep dicking around with this type of thing. The Prow is just one example, but the concept I am talking about is fixed gear that periodically blows and gets replaced. How many times do you think that can happen? Which is less intrusive, fixed gear mank, or camoflauged long-life bolts? I'm just wondering when we shift tactics to address the reality of fixed gear longevity?
I'll take my answer off the air, thank you.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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So did your worries of the fixed mank keep you off the Prow? Would you have gone up there if there were "longlife" bolts at the crux, instead of possibly scary placements?
mank = adventure and risk, and some people like the uncertainty of it all.
I suppose at some point, when there is no more placements at all, something will probably be done. Exactly what, is unknown, and in the end may be nothing.... the route may no longer exist. Or you can dumb down and bolt the fuk out of the thing with colored holds and turn the C2 into 5.8. But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Hi Russ, good question.
The answer is no. We ran short on time and water bottles, and chose to do the Lost Arrow Spire instead.
I think I catch your drift though. I'm just thinking out-loud. Showing my ignorance; that's what I do.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Spencer: yeah... tough questions on stuff like fixed mank getting replaced with good stuff.
Earlier Sean said something about Serenity Crack being better off if it was bolted long ago instead of pinned out to oblivion. (paraphrase) So who with such a vision is ready to bolt up (or down) a crack in the name of preservation so that crack will look just the same in 50 years?
Currently, bolted cracks are generally frowned upon, even in the name of vision. So do we just destroy all the rock until there are no more placements and then turn the crag into an outdoor gym? Hard to say. Somewhere in the middle is what will probably happen, through regulation, be it official or community driven. At some point we will settle on a standard. I think that point is many many years in the future, unless forced onto us by some evil governing body.
On something like the Prow.... if I had to guess, those heads will need to blow and blow and blow until there really is no way to make them stick. Then someone will place a rivet, which will work for a few years and then blow, and then someone will place a bolt, and then when that rusts out, someone will place a giant bolt. And so it goes. The visionary would argue to just place the big asss bolt now, since we can all see what will happen if we don't. But in the end does it really matter? Probably not. But, to some the experience is richer standing on some mank, or perhaps perching on a rivet rather than on a bolt. The blood pumps a little faster, fear has a chance at getting to the small hairs on the back of your neck, and the feeling of accomplishment is a bit more intoxicating than if you were standing on a bolt that could not fail. Getting by with some uncertainty is what makes the game fun. You never hear anyone say with any enthusiasm, "man... you should have seen how cool it was standing on that big new bolt!". But, you will hear time and again guys talking with wild eyes about how, "it was so Jingus!!!....I'm like 20ft out and have to clip this shoelace dangling from a rusted RURP.... FUK MAN!!! It was HAIRY!" I know which story I'd rather be telling.....
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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I hear you, me too! I'm just looking down the road and wondering. Plus, I'm pretty much all trad all the time, so I'm pretty ignorant in the ways of the big wall mank-mongers, and why continue to do the mank dance. Thanks for explaining it to me without belittling. I really do appreciate it.~~~~~SA
Edit: Klaus, that looks an awful lot like a "Him Hang" but I guess you already knew that. Doesn't look very "hard". Someone should do a traverse variation and call it "Sack-Up". Did you hear the one about the two kiwis?...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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One place we might agree regarding the sort-of mank on trade routes is...Don't clean the heads. Banging more heads in on each trade route ascent just beats the rock to death and pretty soon you have to trench em.
Don't place heads where clean gear can go either (like lost arrow placements that could take bomber cam hooks)
There have been discussions in the context of Middle Cathedral regarding whether routes that relied on fixed pins for free-climbing should have those pins replaced by more pins, or bolts, or just let the climbs get scarier, or use Steve Grossman's pin-bolt idea. I don't have a link cause i'm crashin
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> And so I can imagine how Sean feels, wanting and feeling to kick some ass if somebody chopped but also realizing that it's just not where we want to go.
But that is not how Sean feels. I think he explained it pretty clearly; certainly Russ understands it.
What he feels is that he is tired of hearing the spray (aka B.S.) about chopping. And he expects if it was actually chopped that he would feel upset/angry. Well, I think that is how most of us would feel if somebody felt so negatively about one of our FAs. This does not translate to a desire to hurt somebody. It might translate to some angry words with that person. And Sean said he would not be afraid of confronting someone who did something that bothered him. Not for the purpose of picking a fight, but to show that people who take actions should be accountable, and be ready to explain what they did.
I find the preemptory statements by Jody rather premature; I don't think that is the right approach, because some people will be tempted to do it, partly just to see if you follow up. This is not about testing Jody's integrity (I'm sure he has it). It is about tolerance, as Kelly explained many posts ago. Some people don't like the fact that the upper part was rap bolted, but can tolerate it. Some will spray about chopping, which is ignorable to some and disturbing to others. *If* a route is junk and not worth the bolts or methods used to do the FA, often it is best to just leave as an example and let people see it for themselves. It seems clear that the climbing on Growing Up is not junk. Maybe it looks like a "lot" of bolts, but there are a lot on other routes in the vicinity (except Southern Belle) - as with Wings of Steel, when there are few cracks, it is going to take bolts if you want pro.
The ground up alternative on the upper slab is there waiting (go left at the top of the 60' bolt ladder), if somebody wants to go up there and take on that challenge.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Clint
I thought I was saying pretty much that same thing in different words ( you're interpretation of Sean's anger)
Both Sean and Coz have gone through a few cycles of posting upset and posting cool. It's like the cycle of emotions between two guys who were dating the same gal. Sometimes it's helpful to look at the time of night posted for insight about states of mind.
Coz, if you read back to Sean's angry post (which wasn't directed at you) and his follow-up posts, it'll give you a better perspective. It wasn't about you. Kudos to you for suggesting that they remove their own bolts rather than call for chopping despite being upset.
Since the guys said they hand drilled the route, you've come out and stated it was power-drilled. Are you claiming to know something we don't, or do you just figure that would have been too much work to do by hand, or just mad last night?
I have faith that you guys will work out this latest twist in the road.
peace
Karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Russ Walling: ...But then, what about the 5.6 guys?
Now, there's no need to drag us "5.6 guys" into this muck, but since you asked...
For the most part (can't speak for everybody), we'll look up at stuff like that and mutter under our breaths, "Holy Mackerel, Andy." And then move on.
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jstan
climber
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Sounds to me like the "5.6 guys" have really got it together.
Good people with whom to travel!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Maybe the "5.6 guys" could organize a Canned Sardines Fest.
Or Pb&J.
As a guide, however, I happen to know that 5.6 guys drink some of the tastiest Scotch...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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White pants are hard to keep white. Even if you like the pureness of
white, it's really hard to keep 'em that way. But white pants are cool,
especially so because everybody knows what it takes to keep 'em white.
But once they get stained, you gotta get a new pair of pants if you really
want white. Some pants, though, well there ain't no replacing them.
You can carry on the analogy by adding color. Some colors pollute the
absolute white, while others can actually add a bit of funk to the suit.
The fact is, there's really no replacing anything that you hold near and
dear. You can look for a substitute, but it's never the same. This can
be good, or bad. As stated above, it's your frame of mind that makes it so.
If you think GU soils Half Dome, then it's done. Chop the route, it
doesn't matter, the route is still there but with trash instead of
useable bolts. The fact is, chopping just soils the face that much more.
This debate is about keeping the SFoHD white. Some think it's our
last/best pair of white pants. "We need a place where only the boldest
can go. A place where we know you are God if you go there." A place
where us dirty climbers kept a drawer sanitized to hold those white
pants, for the future climber who's gonna step up and make us all proud.
Little piles of rock in JTree don't matter. Little rocks lower in the
Valley don't matter. We're talking about the pinnacle of pureness getting
stained. Somebody poured black paint down the face of the ivroy tower.
Go climbing for crying out loud. And if you want some white pants, you
might have to look farther than Half Dome, the rock with cables going up
the back side.
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