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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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Dingus, I respect your thoughts on this as well. Climbing is an inherently personal matter. The imposition of style and ethics is a tricky business. Few of us wants to be told how, what, where, when and with who we can climb. I would argue that the acceptance of particular ethics or styles have benefited the climbing community and climbing continuum tremendously over the years. The general adoption of "Clean Climbing" comes to mind. As an ethic it certainly was not forced or imposed on climbers just highly advised. The acceptance of "Clean Climbing", I am sure you would agree, has absolutely benefitted us all and the medium of our ascent as well. I am sure most climbers would agree that when you visit another area it is in everyone's best interests to follow the local customs, style and ethics. A case of "when in Rome..." if you will.
I come from a background of "ground up" "best or better style" climbing, with a fair bit of Erickson's "no tainting" thrown in. That is my ethics of ascent and I don't try to impose them on anyone I don't climb with. I believe we all need to choose for ourselves how we approach our climbing. But I firmly believe our approach should be tempered to the histories and sensitivities of where we intend to climb. Just because past abominations seem to have been accepted by subsequent ascents (the Compressor Route, the Jardine Traverse and the Stratosfear route just to name a few) does not justify future transgressions.
There are mountains and areas I have always felt should remain as untainted as possible. Just because it is too late your Yosemite does not mean we should sacrifice everywhere. It is my strong belief that places like Patagonia and Antarctica and others should be left for the boldest and strongest among us to make the grandest statements of human achievement possible.
Just because modern technology makes it possible to be deposited on any summit anywhere doesn't mean we should reduce all climbs to the lowest common denominators.
If the plan to rap bolt Cerro Torre takes place it will unequivocally and permanently diminish us all.
At least in my pathetically humble opinion.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 27, 2011 - 11:54am PT
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Philo, I couldn't agree with you more. I just returned from Patagonia where I was able to explore pristine, never before visited, areas near the North Patagonia Ice Cap. Today's emphasis on establishing the highest technical difficulty regardless of the means seems so remote, to me, from the spirit of exploration that got me and many others into climbing. Spending the rest of my climbing life poking my nose into some of the last remaining unexplored crannies on our beautiful planet will serve me just fine.
edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 27, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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I think if he was bolting on lead, even with a bosch if it was legal, that most people on this forum would not object too heavily and this probably happens a fair bit on high scale new big wall free routes on big peaks. That being said bolting on lead and hand drilling greatly limits the amount iron you can practically put in.
Also at issue is bolting next to good trad placements and the scale it was undertaken for the sake of the "the film" that they are claiming that we the climbing community are going to enjoy so much that we should be paying him to do it. For an example I would think the bolts added to the Salathe on the FFA are probably minimal compared to what was done on Cerro Torre and mostly at belays(correct me if I'm wrong). As I have watched big wall free climbing evolve at least through the media(I have not climbed in CA much, patagonia none, and zero big wall free climbs)it seems that today's big wall free climbers are getting kudos for being bold.
It sounds as if a lot of these projects add a bolt or two near the route or replace old bolts, but certainly not next to good trad placements or on the scale undertaken by Lama and crew. Most of these climbers that are being touted at least stateside seem to be willing to run it out big time before they are forced to drill and they are being touted for placing as minimal fixed gear as possible. It is happening on the same scale where I live but the walls are just much smaller. At what point do we realize that showing you are brave and bold is just as laudable of a characteristic as being a "strong" climber.
I may only do bold routes that are under 5.10(sometimes way under 5.10) but I am still doing them and there is a satisfaction that would not be there when I do a similar route that has bolts every 5 feet. One last thing I am not anti bolting or even rap bolting, but I think our grandest cathedrals and the places that have drawn best and boldest climbers to them for a century or more are the palces where the older more conservative values should still stay in place.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jan 27, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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I'm with Philo and Donini on this..
do we have to beat every mountain and rock into submission?
Or to quote BAchar: to bring it down to our level?
no one including me wants to be told what to do, what makes a climber/man/human different is their ability to know when they are doing the right thing, and to know when it is wrong..
were we right or wrong on the Muir wall back in 1994? only answer i have is we did it in the ground up style with the emphasis of least amount of bolts (by power yes) and added no new bolts to Muir line..also replaced countless worthless belay bolts.. was it right to use power drill? no but that is the tool we choose in the best style of the day..
kurt
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 27, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Hawkeye says:
so much vitriol....was it ok to rapp bolt half dome? or were you guys quiet then because you knew the players?
Wha?.... Who was quiet? Most of us never heard a peep about Growing Up until coz started screaming. Then there was a lot of NOT QUIET, but even then, it was too late, the deed was done.
Or haven't you seen this thread?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=566859&msg=1267467#msg1267467
Jhedge, coz, I'm still waiting to hear about rap bolting on Southern Belle.
I thought that route was supposed to be the bold virgin queen of ground up. Sounds as though there may be some dirty undies in the closet. C'mon somebody spit it out....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 27, 2011 - 12:27pm PT
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I just returned from Patagonia where I was able to explore pristine, never before visited, areas near the North Patagonia Ice Cap.
Jim just knowing those places still exist is important to me.
Today's emphasis on establishing the highest technical difficulty regardless of the means seems so remote, to me, from the spirit of exploration that got me and many others into climbing.
I couldn't agree more.
Spending the rest of my climbing life poking my nose into some of the last remaining unexplored crannies on our beautiful planet will serve me just fine. That would serve me fine as well.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 27, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
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survival,
i think that there are some peeps here berating lama who were not as vocal about growin up.
Some Mountains should not be subdued by every artificial means in the egotist arsenal.
philo, if there was ever an artificial means it was the maestri effort. the same route that folks got all pissed when some others were going to erase it.
we are a terribly fickle bunch, us rock climbers. we adore the free ascent of the nose that uses chipped holds, we dont mind rapp bolting on certain cliffs , then we blow up when someone wants to rap bolt cerro torre whose most popular route was arguably a travesty. seems like most of us are a bunch of self serving folks with a lack of perception...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 27, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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we are a terribly fickle bunch, us rock climbers. we adore the free ascent of the nose that uses chipped holds, we dont mind rapp bolting on certain cliffs , then we blow up when someone wants to rap bolt cerro torre whose most popular route was arguably a travesty. seems like most of us are a bunch of self serving folks with a lack of perception...
A lot of truth there. I have a hard time sorting out my own schizo, much less all the rest of these anarchists.
I don't like the Compressor, and I don't want it rap bolted. I don't like Growing Up being rap bolted. I won't do any of them though, so it's more about the taste it leaves in my mouth based on my upbringing as a climber and the way I conducted myself on my boldest climbs.
In the end, GU won't get chopped, and it will be more popular and "classic" because of the protection available.
But I tell you, Honnold and his partner got major street cred by going to Southern Belle instead of GU.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 27, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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Comparing Yosemite to Patagonia is like equating the Milton Boulder with the Diamond.
The effort and time required put them on entirely different planes.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Or would you be OK with rap bolting the Painted Wall?
Ground up not ground down.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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Reminds me of Euripes' play The Bacchae. The arrogant and headstrong king of Thebes, who is convinced of his rightness, is finally seduced by Dionysius into dressing like a Maenid in order to go to their mountain glen and observe their rituals. However, his true identity is revealed on his arrival at the mountain by Dionysius and he is torn to shreds by the Maenids. The main point of the play is an exposition of the crowd mentality and it's violence (perhaps applicable here) but also the folly of men who will not consider the thoughts and outlooks of others because they are so convinced of the rightness of their outlook.
I suppose that could always cut both ways, but I suspect this kid is going to come to a bad end, just because, to me, he goes so against the spirit of climbing that is embodied in a mountain like Cerro Torre.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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We are a fickle and a little confused bunch, since we don't seem to mind such actions in some settings but yammer and scream when it happens in others. Myself included.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 27, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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philo,
those of you are and have always been ground up are not fickle if thats your thing. i was not advocating one thing over another. however, it is fair to say that had rapp bolting not ever came into vogue even on a chossy road cut that we would not see the idea for Cerro Torre.
point is that our (collective) agreement that rapp bolting on some cliffs have led to this. for lama, it is obviously a natural extension of rapp bolting on small cliffs. i am certainly not supporting it, but since i have rapp bolted i dont feel the right to throw rocks at the guy no matter how effed up i think it is...we cannot control the behaviour of others, we can only practice what we preach...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
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Yes, and Al Capone favored the Thompson machine gun for the same reason.
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Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
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Jan 27, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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Donini:edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.
You could still write a bitchin' TR with some pics thatt would not make it obvious where it is.
Or how about a fictionalized version?
"Somewhere, beyond the map, or just off the margins our story begins..."
(Thread Drift)
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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Jan 28, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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I hope that David Lama fails to steal one of the greatest projects that is left for future generations.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 28, 2011 - 10:52am PT
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Beautiful pic Mikey, looks like you've had some weather.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Jan 28, 2011 - 11:07am PT
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Donini, keep your finds quiet, too many these days use exploration to fund their lifestyles and line the pockets of corporate magazines.( especially in the surf world) It is refreshing to see that their are still folks out there that still explore for the adventure not finacial gains.Here,Here! Cheers!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jan 28, 2011 - 11:11am PT
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edit: I hesitate to promote my finds in the interest of preserving them.
You can tell Me Jim. it will be our little secret . Is there any wide?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jan 28, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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The Patagonia where we have built our house is a throwback to the 70's in terms of access and exploration. No magnificent peaks like Fitzroy and the Torre's but plenty of unexplored terrain with little gems. Any TR I do will not provide location information, but I will share that with anyone who shows up on my doorstep. The area will never attract climbers looking for notoriety but it's perfect for those who love to explore and climb for there own personal reasons.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 28, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
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I have done FA in Patagonia and El Cap, FFA of SB and can tell you from experience, they're the same, can you speak from experience?
It was every bit as hard doing ground up routes in both areas, Patagonia just has sh#t weather.
Dave Lama, is a shameful sell out, in my book, if he wants to go down in history as the man who rap bolted Cerro Torre, it's his book to write. I hope Rollo and the boys stop him, and his ego madness.
no ego in your posts are there?
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