Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
|
I searched that article - the word riot does not appear. Since when is a suicide bombing a riot?
I was referring to
"as Pakistani anger over the U.S. raid to get the al Qaeda leader showed no sign of abating."
but was also thinking that the suicide bombing is also "Blowback" and the general rational for the fear about "riots" is really fear of blowback which certainly includes suicide bombings
Peace
Karl
|
|
howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
|
Am I the only person who remembers that we are at war and that this guy was the enemy? Seriously, it's war, it's not about a fair fight it's about killing the other guy who is trying to kill you. He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
|
"He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face."
Yep, that's exactly right. Now he's gone- move along. No fanfare, no 'Mission Accomplished' hubris.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
|
Okay another quick question. This is not totally original, but this thread has got really screwed up so may be worth refocusing on an important issue.
I'm trying to reconcile the following statements, which appear to be standard liberal point of view on ST and elsewhere:
I. It was a good idea for Obama to assassinate Osama rather than taking him alive for trial. Capturing him would be "inconvenient" because it may upset people. And Osama was a really bad guy and deserved it.
II. George Bush should be tried for war crimes for authorizing rough interrogation techniques such as waterboarding (even those who were roughly interrogated were not actually killed, and have been given rights to legal counsel and trials under US jurisdiction).
Is it really the case that people think that assassination is OK, but rough interrogation is a war crime?
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
|
Am I the only person who remembers that we are at war and that this guy was the enemy? Seriously, it's war, it's not about a fair fight it's about killing the other guy who is trying to kill you. He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face.
In what situation should it ever be a fair fight?
Should torture and assassination ever be avoided or is it in our (U.S.A) best interest to always do these things?
Should we consider the strategic benefits of killing civilians if it would somehow reduce the strength of this enemy? How about school buses full of kids? Is there any point in drawing the line somewhere when it comes to war or should be not take prisoners.
We sort of lose the moral high ground if we are no different than the people with whom we are at "war". I understand them (Al Qaeda types) better now because I see the same extremism and terrorism attitudes in people in my own country. The more scarred you get, the more you become them.
Maybe we should just accept human nature and go for it and be no different from those we condemn as being evil. It's hard to tell what is best for us as individuals or as groups or as a species.
Dave
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
|
When a President has someone killed and the body disposed of asap and will not even release photographic evidence to show who was killed it is far from delusional to suspect that something is being covered up.
No cover up required - simply a desire to avoid the extended domestic and international political nightmare that would surely follow and international calls by other nations who also had citizens killed in 9/11 that he be tried in the Hague.
If it were 1961 it would be a different story, but in an Internet-driven 2011, no president would want to manage the world-wide circus and theater that would surely have followed a capture. Not to mention how it would all play out between now and the election next year. It was a kill op out of political expediency and so everyone could just move on.
There is really no way for a US president to declare such an assassination legal and Obama should quit trying; it simply acts to further strengthen the already dubious precedents and enhancements to executive power enacted under Bush and a SCOTUS picked just for that purpose. But politics being what they are that isn't going to happen.
Again, there's no need for conspiracies or cover-ups, just lame 'legal' rationalizations...
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
|
Unless the POTUS is a Republican, of course.
Jeebus, Ksolem... I never thought of you of a conspiratorial tinfoil hat type. Do you think 9/11 was a Shrub/Neocon plot, too? Such delusions spring from the same paranoia, you know.
No, they don't. I just think this OBL think is weird. And I bet if GWB had pulled the same thing a lot of people on the left would have had a fit.
Everyone is way too dogmatic about politics. And if you are looking for someone to call delusional, how about JHedge...
Plus we're dealing with 2 enemies now - the foreign ones, and the domestics (repubs). Hard to argue at this point which is more hell-bent on the destruction of the US, but I know for sure which has actually been more effective. We'll defeat them too. A pity we can't use the same measures we used on Bin Laden that repubs have used on our leaders (Gabrielle Giffords, the Kennedys, MLK, Lincoln etc). Then we really would be lowering ourselves to the dregs of humanity...
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
|
"And I bet if GWB had pulled the same thing a lot of people on the left would have had a fit."
No doubt about that.
"Everyone is way too dogmatic about politics. "
Double damn right. There really isn't any room for the reality of political landscape, which is dominated by those who lie somewhere between the ideologies, with slight leanings one way or the other. The loudest, most hyperbolic & persistent voices we hear in the media (and here on ST) are those at the ends of the political spectrum, desperately trying to move the middle in their direction. That mindset, on either end of the spectrum, is either psychotic in their obsession, or patient manipulators.
"And if you are looking for someone to call delusional..."
I'm not, unless the shoe fits. I just didn't expect such things from you, Ksolem.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
|
Like the Birther issue, still alive with the fully duped liar crowd.
Jesus Christ - now I am being lumped in with the birthers because I think something is suspicious because on the very face of it, it is.
Good to see I'm getting under Dr F's skin a little though.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
|
DMT,
You just declared many countries your enemy, you ready to sign up for the Air Force again??? Many countries use torture, what we use is not even close in trauma.
The evil one
now come on evil one, AC's sparring was traumatic to you and all he did was call you out reapeatedly....
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
|
I have never been a birther. I don't know where you got that idea. I think it's a lame issue.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
|
Dr. F:
If we can torture Prisoners
That means our enemies can torture us
Are you OK with our prisoners getting tortured????????
Yes or No
Osama was No. 1 Wanted Man, Dead or Alive
If we had him alive, wouldn't all of Al Qaeda go on hostage taking campaigns to negotiate his release, Yes
What can they do now, only protest
Thanks Obama
Now prosecute Bush and his Administration for the despicable Unconstitutional crimes he committed
Dr. F, you and some of the other "scientists" who plague this site need to sharpen your critical thinking skills rather than regurgitate propaganda.
In your first paragraph, change "torture" to "assassinate." Same difference.
On the whole hostage taking thing if Osama were captured, that's basically BS. If hostage taking were an effective strategy, why aren't Muslim terrorists taking US hostages now to make whatever demands that Osama was making? (E.g, US stop supporting secular governments in Muslim countries, stop supporting Israel, all grow long beards, whatever.) Is the capture of Osama the only thing that Muslim terrorists would have taken hostages over? Where do you come us with that stuff?
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
|
He's too busy searching through my posts looking for something about Obama's birth cert to think critically...
|
|
howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
|
Should torture and assassination ever be avoided or is it in our (U.S.A) best interest to always do these things?
Sh*t. JFK was assassinated. OBL was not. He directed terror attacks while using his family as human shields, he was in the field and he was not defenseless. COULD he have been taken alive? Probably. Was that the mission? It was a possible outcome. I guess we'll have to trust the guys who performed the mission that the outcome was the right call given the conditions.
We are a moral country and we should always hold ourselves to the highest standards, however if you harm us and declare war on us we will fight back. Every time. Until the stated goal has been achieved. No more, no less.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
|
We are a moral country and we should always hold ourselves to the highest standards, however if you harm us and declare war on us we will fight back. Every time. Until the stated goal has been achieved. No more, no less.
one of the more reasonable posts on the thread....i agree
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
|
howlow,
Nice statement. But, it's a bit greay out there.
I had a legitimate chance to shoot a homeless woman with a Crossman pellet gun. Guess that would have been OK??
The evil one
fattrad, with this gun you should shoot all you want!
|
|
howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
|
Fatty,
So you are saying a homeless lady shot you with a pellet gun? Sounds like a fun facelift fundraiser. :)
I'm not sure a follow your point, aside from the fact that you can't tell the difference between someone who is a legitimate threat to your health and someone who legitimately needs help. OBL was a legitimate threat. Homeless lady probably needed pity a lot more than she needed a flashlight to the dome.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
|
So porn addiction = terrorist?
Where does nun obsession fit into this?
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
|
howlo, I'm with you 100%, but don't waste your time figuring this out with Repubs. Remember, according to GOP credo, anything that Obama does is wrong, no matter how in line with GOP ideology, no matter whether the GOP was advocating the same action last week, no matter what.
Obama is always wrong. End of (rational) discussion.
|
|
howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
|
|
|
May 13, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
|
Apogee, I know, the constantly moving goalposts and the posturing is pretty amazing. I will always be amazed at the level to which party becomes more important than country. I think a lot of it comes about as "payback" for a lot of the abuse that GWB was given. I'll admit I am as guilty of that as anyone. And I'll also be the first to admit that give some time there have been choices that GWB made that I criticized him for that have turned out to be OK. I think in retrospect he was given more grief than was fairly his. That being said the knee jerk hating on Obama by the right has been stunning in its voracity and intensity. It must be scary to see most of your stances so completely co-oped by someone who you have sworn to object to. Call him a socialist as much as you want, he's right center and his achievements are piling up...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!