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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 1, 2011 - 10:58pm PT
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Yep.
Turn on CNN if you've got a TV, the Pres is about to hold a press conference.
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monolith
climber
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Let the conspiracy droids blather on.
This has gotta suck for the conservatives.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Confirmed, we have his body.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
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I heard that it was Bear Grylls who did it.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Right on top of the WH Correspondents' Dinner comedy turn, a great weekend for Mr. President. Time to pose for a coin!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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RIGHT FROM THE FRONT PAGE OF FOX NEWS.
Nice spelling!
Ummm, you may not know this, but his actual name is written in Arabic. When transliterated in Roman letter, there are a couple ways to do it.
Same with Gaddafi (G or K or Q).
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Confrims
Pretty sure that's an english word, misspelled by the "fact checkers" at Fox.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Will it change anything? No.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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CIA got him? A drone?
The President is about to speak - within the next ten minutes.
Cool stuff!!
Got him a week or so ago, waited til they got the DNA confirmation.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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^ ^
Fox says "confirms" when I look at it, maybe it was changed.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Appears they killed him in Pakistan near the capitol of Islamabad.
No, not Busey! OBL.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Good week for the President.
He smacks the birthers down, and now he gets Bin Laden.
And Wow, Really is exposed for the stupid little internet troll he wow really is.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Gary Busey in martyrdom? I think not.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Team America...Fuk Yeah!!
Okay, lets bring the troops home now.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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On the main Fox page, the spelling is okay. Click on that to read more and the headline still reads "Usama Bin Landen Dead Fox News Confrims". Double typo.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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CBS News says that this sends a real message to bin Laden.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nope, not a drone. "Human operation" they say.
Some bad-ass sniper? Hmmmm. CIA?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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BREAKING NEWS..... THE WAR ON TERROR IS OVER !!!!!
HURRAY!!! AMERICA WINS THE WAR ON TERROR. ALL TROOPS TO COME HOME!!!
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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One of the very few times that I've been happy to hear of another's demise.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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woohooo
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mottaaa
Trad climber
tucson
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Lets not anoint Obama...??? Really?? Did he not pull troops out of Iraq and increase Troops in Afganistan, and increase the effort to Get Bin Laden?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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One of the very few times that I've been happy to hear of another's demise.
Not me--I've never understood what right the US to go around killing people in foreign countries, without a trial. What if he could have been captured alive?
Remember this guy was never convicted of any crime.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The news comes as an unparalleled boost for US foreign policy, the key aim of which since 2001 has been the disarming and dismemberment of al-Qaida, and coincidentally probably insures the re-election of Obama in the 2012 presidential contest.
As a candidate, during the 2008 election campaign Obama repeatedly vowed: "We will kill Osama bin Laden." And so it proved.
Here
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Yes!
Norton has a point too:
And Wow, Really is exposed for the stupid little internet troll he wow really is.
Of course we all know that Wow, Really is a troll/turd.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Now we can cut the CIA payroll by a good chunk of change. One deep undercover agent released from the agency. lol
I wonder if all his relatives can now come back to the USA and continue their party with GW.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2011 - 11:48pm PT
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Not me--I've never understood what right the US to go around killing people in foreign countries, without a trial. What if he could have been captured alive?
Remember this guy was never convicted of any crime.
Convicted? No. However, he took credit for 9/11 and in a war, people get killed.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Not me--I've never understood what right the US to go around killing people in foreign countries, without a trial. What if he could have been captured alive?
Remember this guy was never convicted of any crime.
1) What is your real name?
2) What is your city of origin?
The above determine your credibility here. If you will not respond appropriately, STFU.
3) This guy was a terrorist who claimed responsibility for the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians.
Oh bollocks. You're a wanker. The pres is on.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Convicted? No. However, he took credit for 9/11 and in a war, people get killed.
Really?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Donald Trump made Obama kill Bin Laden
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"I seem to remember a time that he distinctly said he didn't have anything to do with 9-11."
Bollocks.
Edit: Maybe he tried to recant his earlier claims when he saw the effort being aimed at him?
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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"I seem to remember a time that he distinctly said he didn't have anything to do with 9-11."
I seem to remember him taking credit for it.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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So does this justify the means?
More than 100,000 people have been killed, 4,452 Americans killed since 3/19/03, and over a trillion dollars spent.
Soooo, the death of Bin Laden makes up for this and for the 3,000 people killed on 9/11???
WOW
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2011 - 11:59pm PT
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Soooo, the death of Bin Laden makes up for this and for the 3,000 people killed on 9/11???
Not whatsoever. I'm just saying good riddance.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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The republicans want to see Bin Laden's death certificate..
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OR
Trad climber
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Cool! A small US team inside Pakistan in a firefight. Seems better than a drone strike.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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The republicans want to see Bin Laden's death certificate..
BWAHAhahahahaha.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Good speech by the President announcing the termination of Bin Laden.
Time to look at the Pakistan news services for their reaction to our victory
right in their capital city (well a nearby bedroom community)
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 12:04am PT
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Even Fox News is giving props to Obama for his speech.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Holy Shtzizzle, Skipt, Corniss and FuX Noise all praising something done by the secret muslim socialist Black guy.
WTF? I knew when I saw the deadHead sticker on the Escapade that things were gonna get weird.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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So are the "birthers" that demanded Obama's birth certificate now going to become the "deathers" and demand Bin Laden's death certificate?
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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What is "justice?"
Our country touts its morality, yet throws it out the window in the face of adversity.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK
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Nice work..amazing what happens when you make something a priority.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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A bit uncomfortable with the cheering. It could bite us in the butt.
Six foot five and on dialysis,.... I'm making a call tomorrow,.... just saying,...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Great news to wake up to here in Japan! Luckily I read the internet with my morning coffee so I found out.
I rushed to the TV to discover that AFN, the overseas Armed Forces Network was running "Who's Smarter than a 5th Grader" right through the president's speech, then an ad about sexual harassment, an ad for The Apprentice which shows tonight, and now they're onto a soap opera?
Probably the programmers in LA were asleep while their prerecorded tape played or they were watching the president's speech on another channel??
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apparently a crowd has formed across the street from the White House to cheer, chanting "USA USA."
Seems like we've stooped even lower than I thought . . .
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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Good news; my son Is in Middle East fighting.
May I suggest that the news stop showing live coverage of us celebrating?
Many US soldiers will die if thats aired in the middle east. Remember what happened when the Rev burned da book.
Move on to the next sick bastard & kill him too but for f*#k sake don't gloat. Act like you been there & DONE it before.
Rg
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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blahblah, that's what I was referring to.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 12:28am PT
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The frat party at the White House fence is completely uncalled for.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Everyone seems to love freedom, but justice is dying.
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Osama bin Laden dead and gone, very good! Kudos and thanks to the major hard ass dudes who pulled it off. Americans in the streets celebrating like we won the world cup or something, embarrassing.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 12:35am PT
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Paul, what would you suggest? We try to capture a man who won't go willingly? Who killed so many people? What would you have done if it was your call when you learned where he was?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Tami's right.
It's not over.
It's like standing on a summit. You still gotta get back to the car, and all kinds of nasty things can still happen.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Abbottabad is to Islamabad sort of like Placerville is to Sacramento.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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This coverage of the 'death party' is disgusting. I'm pleased that we got him, but a party and media coverage of it? Awful.
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yo
climber
a tied-off Tomahawk™
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We should drag the body around the streets so we can all wail and slap it with our Chacos.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Someone help Brandon with an attitude check. We're all celebrating here
and can't relate to his alien thought process.
Our enemy Bin Laden is dead!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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He's been dead since Sept.11th, 2001.
That was the day Bin Landen basicly committed suicide, by f*#king with us.
It was only a matter of time before we killed him.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Good news for a change! Thanks to all those that brought the sob to justice, A great moment in American history, a great victory, all politics aside. No kidding, the guy was a bastard!
Oh almost forgot: Ding Dong the witch is dead!!!
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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DUDE, he took credit. The evidence was overwhelming! Evidence say's he financed and orchestrated it, etc.!
Actually, he didn't. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Are you familiar with the Gulf of Tonkin incident?
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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It would be great to string up Bin Laden's body over ground zero and pour melted pig fat down him!!!
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 12:56am PT
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Someone help Brandon with an attitude check. We're all celebrating here
and can't relate to his alien thought process.
Huh? Read the thread dumbass. I'm happy that this happened. I'm not happy that there is a giant frat party celebrating his death.
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nb3000
Social climber
Bay Area
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Fox News Correspondent Geraldo Rivera confirms that Bin Laden was certainly not found in Al Capone's Vault.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Interesting to note that Bin Landen and his boys *fought* with the U.S. soldiers, yet they were all killed, and not one of our guys was even injured.
Bin Landen himself didn't turn out to be such an effective warrior, after all.
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Lets hope the sh*t don't hit the fan.......
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Is that because their chosen tactic is ambush and burying IED's...? Rj
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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So Brandon, you are happy Bin Laden is dead, but you frown on others being happy about it? Or is it assembling and being happy together that disgusts
you?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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-removed image cuz Chaz didn't get the joke.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Because Obama's too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Obama spoke very well tonight, apparently on quite short notice. He generally struck the right tone, and wasn't vainglorious. The celebrations in places like Washington and New York are understandable, but as mentioned could lead to retaliation attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere.
The action of the US was entirely justified under domestic and international law. Unlike, say, the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
It is interesting that the operation was by a special forces team. That suggests that they were trying to take bin Laden alive, or at least that they wanted to be sure to have a clearly identifiable body. It wouldn't have been hard to bomb the place, after all.
The attacks in 2001 had enormous symbolic impact on the US; let's hope this has similar impact on terrorists and wannabe terrorists, by demonstrating that the US has implacable will to bring them to justice. Perhaps the US overreacted in some ways to 2001, certainly with the invasion of Iraq; hopefully the terrorists will now make a similar error. Although, al Qaeda (or what's left of it), and its fellow travelers, are quite decentralized. So cutting one head off the hydra doesn't necessarily solve all problems.
The fallout in Pakistan may be considerable. That is, what did they know and when did they know it? Were elements of the Pakistani government hiding, or turning a blind eye, to bin Laden and perhaps others? How much did they actually co-operate in the action, and how will that be seen by the Pakistan public?
Our prime minister was in a pickle tonight. He was at a last election rally in a Vancouver suburb, before going back to his 'heartland' (Alberta) to vote tomorrow. 30 or 40 Canadians died in the terrorist attacks, and Canada's military has made a significant contribution in Afghanistan. So he had to say something, without appearing in the slightest bit partisan. Talk about a volte face.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Let it be known to all people, that if you attack America we will hunt you down. It may take awhile, but eventually you will be brought to justice. American justice.
Was this justice? You bet. Bin Laden took full credit for that act of profound cowardice and cruelty. He admitted that he planned and facillitated the mass, random killing of 3,000 innocent American citizens, and he was quite proud of it.
Hopefully its not over. In the christian view of things Mr Bin Laden is standing before god and not feeling so proud anymore.
One of the lowest scumbags in the history of humankind is dead and i couldnt be happier
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Because Obama's too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time.
Theres a real intelligent statement. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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WBraun
climber
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What a fool ^^^^
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 01:24am PT
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CC, I'm not the only one in this thread who has voiced this opinion.
It's called tact, buddy.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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^^ Huh? Read the thread dumbass.
You are very tactful
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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4 Marine helicopters unloaded a team of 8 per ride, a couple of Air Force CCT's, Navy seals , & a CIA team. All warriors
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dirtbag
climber
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Right on...that son of a bitch is dead. Piss on his f*#king grave, that nihilist f*#k.
Major kudos to special forces.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Ahhh. This is not political. The U.S. has been spending enourmous resources over the years to get this guy. While I am pretty much a peacenik, I gotta say that OBL deserved it.
As for the cheering, does anyone remember the cheering in the middle east streets over 9/11? Human nature.
And back to it not being political, there was a great article a while back in one of the "good" mags, like Harper's or something, where the writer got to follow Obama's anti terror team around for 24 hours. They are downright fanatical over avoiding another 9/11. They work on almost zero sleep, right up to the top.
I remember Obama wanting to dismantle some of the Bush tactics, but he ended up keeping them and even enlarging some of them. This took ten years and three presidential terms, but I believe the credit is shared by both Bush and Obama. The president said as much. Bush will get a lot of well deserved cred for this, as well as Obama.
And I am a democrat. Hey, no political party disagrees on this one. I agree that this was way beyond party, and was an American deal. Plain and simple. It was a country, not a party. Those who say otherwise place party above country.
Now hopefully we can pull our people out of the Middle East conflicts, other than the special ops outfits that will always be in those areas.
Afghanistan is going to go down the toilet the day we leave. We could stay forever, but that won't change. Same with Iraq. It is so weak that half of it might as well be annexed by Iran.
But trying to make Obama look good or bad over this is nuts. It is the services that don't change much over administrations that has pulled this off. But Obama is really nuts over terrorists. Those drone strikes have what, tripled? The bad thing is that for every person killed, you will get five or so new jihadists to take their place. So it will never end.
Actually, we have 14 bases in Iraq now and the largest US embassy in the world. Going anywhere "soon"? Nope.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Not me--I've never understood what right the US to go around killing people in foreign countries, without a trial. What if he could have been captured alive?
Remember this guy was never convicted of any crime.
Uhhhhh, you don't hold trials in the middle of a war, with the enemy shooting at you. You shoot to kill.
The US was attacked, which was admitted.
when the first artillery shell hits, you want to hold a trial before shooting back?
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 01:34am PT
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OK, I'll make it crystal clear so you guys will leave me alone.
I'm glad that Bin Laden was dealt with.
I think that broadcasting a public party celebrating his death at the White House gate is not tactful. It may only incur more hate and violence toward us. We do not want that.
I am not tactful.
Now I've got to go pick more ticks off of me. Those bastards are everywhere.
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WBraun
climber
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They didn't kill Bin Laden.
You've all been owned .....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I'm Dead!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Anyway, it seems that the theory that bin Laden was being held at the ranch of friends in Crawford, Texas wasn't true after all.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Just killing Osama was going to cause great reactions worldwide and, I expect, security at our installations, bases and embassies was raised before we even heard about OBL's demise.
While the celebrations may be distasteful to some, may further inflame our enemies' passion, they are a familiar sideshow to such victories no matter the civilization currently winning.
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jstan
climber
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I would guess the operation actually failed its primary objective. To take him alive. Of course the
orders under which his guards were probably operating required under no conditions was he to be
captured alive. Very difficult.
I think the evidence is there that Americans are now cast in the posture of a hysterical lynch mob.
Our own government thinks this. They flew a contingent of Saudi's out of the country immediately
after the attack on NYC. So that they might be in no danger. By the way this also signaled the
government knew the nationality of its attackers.
None of this would be expected from "The World's Only Superpower".
All this while China is reportedly sitting on 3.04 trillion in US debt.
Our contact with reality is very much in question.
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WBraun
climber
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It was impossible to take Bin laden alive in this bullshit event since there never was a Bid laden there.
So they just said we killed him.
Simple
You've been Owned ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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jstan has a good point - geopolitics being what it is, some countries may see this, and events over the last ten years, as an opportunity, and also as revealing of US weaknesses as well as strengths.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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They didn't kill Bin Laden.
You've all been owned .....
And you're moron.
Well done special forces. f*#k yes.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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Hopefully we public will be able to hear the story of how it went down.
Hats off to whoever organized and executed it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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By the way this also signaled the
government knew the nationality of its attackers.
Interesting observation.
Also interesting that Bush's "Mission Accomplished" speech was given on May 1st.
I really don't think that celebrating will cause any more attacks then are going to happen because of the announcement of Bin Ladens death. It will be used as an excuse, but the radicals will already be making attacks. Its probably going to be a rough few days for our troops.
...
Anyone read Sebastian Junger's book "War"? It highlights the addictiveness of combat.
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jstan
climber
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According to reports the event took place a week ago and the news was suppressed until they had
DNA data. Various family members of OBL were not in sympathy with him. Even under DX priority it
would have taken a week to get DNA from several family members, fly it back here and get it
analyzed and confirmed. To make sure they would have had also to take samples from the other
combatants. In the absence of a earlier verified sample from OBL himself it would be necessary to
show only one body belonged to an OBL family member.
I was not able to pick up the live stream of Obama's press conference so I don't know what was said
there. I'll watch it on Youtube tomorrow. Had I been in Obama's boots I would have laid out some
of the data in that report so that doubt might be dealt with right up front.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Obama said he was killed today.
You don't think Obama would bullshit us, do you?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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When reality smacks them in the face, the conspiracy theorists dig deeper into their delusions.
Your ideas have been marginalized and your thoughts are now relegated to the sidelines of irrelevance. Enjoy your isolation.
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dirtbag
climber
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no surprise there...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Two of Bin Landen's virgins, arguing over which one has to go first.
Poor bastard.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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If the US had intel from August '10 of Osama's whereabouts, I'm guessing they had DNA from family of OBL in country and ready for comparison. JSOC pretty much has their shite together and probably did not have to jet it in for lab results to confirm we had killed THE Osama, not a shill.
Anybody have a real idea how quickly DNA tests can be conducted?
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jstan
climber
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Sounds like the report it happened a week ago was in error. Have to see how this sorts itself out.
Thanks for the link John.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Yeah. S'what I thought. Thanks, John Moosie... and sorry, Werner. Pretty sure they got their man. Unless you want to sit with Klimmer over on the Group W bench.
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Who got the reward money ?
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Alti2de
Sport climber
Columbus, Ohio
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I am struck by the diversity of reactions displayed here... Some relieved, some outright happy, some doubting, even some astonishingly critical that this has occurred... I am particularly surprised that one even seemed to be lamenting the lack of a "trial" for bin Laden... A man who admitted to having been the planner and financier of 9/11. Also, why are the celebrants in Washington and New York being deemed moronic? They are simply celebrating what they see as a victory... Yes, I am sure it's going to piss off terrorists worldwide and there may be repercussions, but human nature is human nature.. Do you not recall the dancing in the streets in the middle east when we were attacked? I do. I am not dancing in the street myself, but this was something that had to be done. And I am glad that it has been done. And for the person who argues that justice has not been done in this instance, I would beg to differ. He was served the same amount of "justice" he delivered to us so many years ago. All my respect to the Intelligence community, JSOC, and the boots on the ground that accomplished this mission.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
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Bin Laden almost certainly died in December 2001.
Before then, he gave regular, weekly radio addresses. Since then, not a word, except videotapes, some of which are laughably fake.
He had kidney disease, was on dialysis.
The funeral was reported in Arab newspapers.
His death was alluded to in 2002 and on by Bush, Rumsfeld, Oliver North, and others.
http://www.amazon.com/Osama-Bin-Laden-Dead-Alive/dp/1566567831/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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well, for one thing this sure proves Obama (not Osama) is no American. Any self respecting American politician would have waited until a week before the election to pull the trigger. ha
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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At first Bin Laden denied being a part of 9-11
source
"http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/01/bin.laden.obit/index.html?hpt=Sbin"
"In statements released from his hideouts in Afghanistan after September 11, bin Laden denied al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks."
later a video came out with Bin Laden Confessing to 9-11 but many have noted that the man in the video supposed to be Bin Laden has facial features, even bone structure don't really match the Bin Laden we'd been seeing.
Who knows. Judge for yourself, he is "him" confessing
http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/osama-bin-laden-s-9-11-confession-2001-25086383;_ylt=AtuewFjlTkOqLojmzIzo3CCz174F;_ylu=X3oDMTEwMzkwdHJpBHBvcwM4BHNlYwNjbGlwcwRzbGsDb3NhbWFiaW5sYWRl
No matter how you slice it. It's amazing how little we've been told about how 9-11 went down. We don't really know the hijackers names. What was Bin Laden's real role versus Kalid S Mohammed? Did they plan it in Germany. What was the Saudi Role?
Peace
karl
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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If the DNA proves the body was his, well then the only thing we know for sure is he is dead and people (many) are happy and sad about it.
I have my own personal feelings about targeted killings/assassinations but it would be presumptuous of me to assume anyone here is interested in that.
I always think it is kind of weird when people dance around and celebrate killings- it creeps me out whether it is some extremist (Muslim or otherwise) dancing and firing their guns in celebrations (witness the downing of the Blackhawk chopper in Mogadishu or the WTC "collapse" to name but two), to a bunch of Americans celebrating the killing of OBL on the streets in the capital. They both strike me as a form of insanity.
I do think it is too bad we were (at least I assume) unable to get OBL alive if for no other reason than to get more info. from him on what went down. That is intel. that will not be forthcoming and in my mind that is very unfortunate. I do not believe in a 'conspiracy' though, just interested in the truth.
I do not understand this word "Justice" either.
Justice for who? For what?
For all the loved ones lost-scratch that-killed as a result of OBL and the military on all sides including so called terrorists? For Iraq, for Afghanistan, for Pakistan, for the USA...
Is that what Justice is? One dies for 'justice' of countless thousands killed?
The dude is dead-so are they. Do you think any of them care now?
Is justice for the living? For the family and friends of the dead?
Is it right to feel some deserve to die while others deserve to live?
What makes us human?
Are we the only animal capable of "inflicting" justice onto others?
Is justice truly a function of our morality?
What is moral and who decides? You? Me? The community? Our elected officials?
These are questions that (I'm guessing) only some will honestly reflect on.
Full disclosure- I believe OBL was a whacked out human that brought about an incredible amount of pain and suffering to others.
It has always seemed to me though that 'death' is the easy way out.
Revenge seems more applicable in this case.
Cheers,
DD
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Burying Bin Laden at sea, and on the same day in accordance with muslim tradition after confirming his identity was wise.
…putting the body on display in the U.S. would be seen (by Muslims) as mocking Islam … and hard and malevolent by most in the west.
Conspiracy proponents will find concern and diversion with the prompt burial, though…
Either way… Bin Laden will be aggrandized, canonized and memorialized by fanatics and zealots in the middle east.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Burying Bin Laden at sea, and on the same day in accordance with muslim tradition after confirming his identity was wise"
I agree.
Cheers,
DD
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Top_Rope
Mountain climber
Queenstown, NZ
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This has made big news down in the Antipodean. We've a sense of well-wishing for everyone in the States as we see this as a small bit of well deserved comeuppance
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I agree with the burying at sea, and the protocol that preceded it. We do not need a grave/monument for this guy that fanatics could worship at.
BTW, I may be in Cali within the next few days, as my sister is on life support at John Muir Hospital in Walnut Creek. It does not look good at all, it is just a matter of time. She is only 57 and has a 15-year-old son that will hopefully end up in guardianship with my brother Mac (the winemaker in Napa) and his wife Kathleen. I have been on the phone and emails to my brothers and relatives all this weekend (today is a bank holiday in Ireland).
It will be a bittersweet visit... firstly a funeral, but secondly Jennie and I have decided to get married in South Lake Tahoe. Marriage in Ireland is so complicated, but in Douglas County (fitting, as my first name is Douglas) it's $60 and find an Elvis preacher. Okay, Elvis is out, but one of my closest and childhood friends, Brian, married Cindy in a chapel next to the lake about 25 years ago. I was there and it was lovely.
Maybe I can get some climbing in at Lover's Leap or around the lake, but probably not.
I called Mac on his 60th b'day on April 3 but he and his estranged wife (they live apart but do a lot together) were off to Tahoe and Mac says "I'll put you on to your god-daughter-in-law", and I am thinking what???
Then this young lady, Grace, comes on the phone. Apparently my nephew Benjamin, after coming back from a seven-month tour in Afghanistan with his Marine unit (he is due to return in October for seven months, but hopefully he won't have to go... he was in regular firefights) decided to marry his high school (Napa HS) sweetheart as soon as he returned in February. Then he will be out. To join the Air Force to be a flight officer.
God-daughter-in-law? Well, he is my godson.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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I'm sitting in the Philly airport right now, getting ready to board a flight. Security was a bit tougher. Interesting vibe in the terminal. Everyone is in a light mood except for the muslims. I'm thinking they either liked the terrorist or hated him but feel persecuted. It is a kind of weird scene. TTFN.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Obama hinted at why it took so long to get him- "It took years of intelligence work..." - Obviously this wasn't possible under the Bush Administration.
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OR
Trad climber
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Media reporting that OBL was using a woman as a human shield when he was shot. Crikey
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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I'm right there with you DMT, where's the proof?
-Patrick
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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The proof is that faux news isn't disputing it.
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monolith
climber
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Yea, we should have a traveling circus show, with barkers, "Come and touch OBL's body".
Seriously, do you even think that would satisfy the conspiracy droids?
The right thing was done. There will be plenty of pics and vids later on.
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dood,
You write as though you had a personal stake in this thing.
Do you?
Or are you just a rubbernecker bystander that is shooting his (her?) wad over this?
"Gotta give credit where credits due!
"Vengeance is mine saith the Lord."
Vengeance served!!"
...and who is 'the lord'?
the dude with the sniper rifle?
Or was 'he' given directions?
Maybe in some weird way you are saying Obama is God.
Sorry but you come off as an extremist yourself.
Cheers,
DD
ps, Patrick sorry to hear about your sister. Be well and congratulations on your upcoming marriage.
Wish I was home in Truckee I'd like to look you up and buy you a beer.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Or we could have what we have now..... nothing? Word of mouth? Correct me if I am wrong, is there at least video of the raid?
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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pat... give it some time to see what faux news does with it.
Sadly... I hate to say it... but if they don't dispute it, if they don't try and make Obama look bad then there's at least some reason to believe it actually happened.
Of course their agenda isn't news and they wouldn't really know how to tell truth from lies. But if what the spray off as news doesn't undermine anything that isn't republican't then it strikes me there's something possibly real to the story.
Then again they are just a bunch of lying dumbf*#kers so.... there's that.
Give the whole story time. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. The whole burial at sea certainly does stink. Yet on the other hand you can't argue it is the right thing to do in the eyes of muslim people.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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"Uses the God word..."
Gotta give credit where credits due!
"Vengeance is mine saith the Lord."
Vengeance served!!
GOD had nothing to do with this.
This is all the USA's doing. OBL was CIA. That is a fact. Perhaps he went rogue (like Sarah Palin) but not until he accomplished what the USA wanted him to do, as the go to and the do all boogeyman.
The USA doesn't listen to GOD. Read your Bible. Study up on "Mystery Babylon." There is only one country in the entire World's history that fulfills all the prophecy concerning "Mystery Babylon," and that would be the USA.
If we did listen to GOD, "In GOD we trust," are just words printed on a dollar, then we wouldn't be at WAR. We wouldn't start wars, we wouldn't rumor (lie) about War to get us into more wars. No it is about the MIC and War profiteering. Watch the great film Why We Fight.
When GOD says vengeance is his. It is his alone to do. I didn't see fire, hail, and brimestone falling out the sky to take out US enemies. No, our own sins are upon our own heads.
GOD wouldn't touch this with a light-year long stick.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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All praises to Bob!
You infidels will pay for this atrocity...
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dirtbag
climber
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…putting the body on display in the U.S. would be seen (by Muslims) as mocking Islam … and hard and malevolent by most in the west.
Agreed Jennie. We don't need a shrine for that SOB.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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We kill Osama, have his body, bury it at sea. We need to show some proof of that period. There is no reason we shouldn't have proof, video DNA, something, we had his body in our hands.
I hope it does come out, I am not against killing Osama.
Our government has lied to us so many times, Dems and Republicans. Just off the top of my head, weapons of mass destruction? Clinton and Lewinsky? The list goes on and on, yes our leaders can and do lie to us, quite often in fact.
They say no Americans were killed, then other reports have a copter being shot down? I am not looking at this from a political perspective, I just want cold hard simple proof. I am sick of my government telling me things and just assuming I will believe. Heck, didn't Saddam have like 20 different look alikes or something? If the proof comes out, then no problem, I'll shut up.
-Patrick
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dirtbag
climber
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DMT, you're sounding like Klimmer.
What would be gained by not getting him then having him turn up a few months from now? That would be an epic level of embarrassment for all involved.
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monolith
climber
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Pat, the other helicopter had mechanical problems and was destroyed by the team.
And there's no such thing as cold hard proof. People will believe what they want to believe.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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well done, mr. president, well done
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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When loose ends are left laying around the 'klimmers' of the world will tie knots in them. I'm showing you how the knots get tied.
very well said Mr. Milktoast.
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dirtbag
climber
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Meh. The klimmer's of the world create their own version of reality anyway.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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I wish that I had Bin Laden's wonderful secret on how to reverse the GRAYING PROCESS TO HIS FACIAL HAIR...
We had to make a show out his death--because him dying of liver disease in a cave 5 years ago isn't very newsworthy for anybody.
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monolith
climber
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Photo is already out. Still won't satisfy the deniers.
Ever heard of beard dyeing products Edejom?
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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monolith--all the time, just that their use by fundamentalist Muslim cave dwellers is pretty much ZERO!
The dude died years ago from liver disease without any fanfare--get over the chest thumping
edit: Seals, CIA, mission, it all sounds incredibly "showy"--I'm happy with just the simple boring facts
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monolith
climber
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Sucks for ya doesn't it.
And he died in a mansion, how ironic.
Do ya think it would have taken anything less then CIA, Seals, etc to get him?
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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dammit goatboy! he looks good! I'd.... yeah.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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mono--you're saying that the FBI Most Wanted Man, and the hardest person in the world to track down had AN ADDRESS AND A LIVING RESIDENCE THAT WAS A MANSION?????
3 cheers for our Seals and CIA for tracking down this hard to find villain (sarc)
edit: I wonder how hard it was to shoot and kill him lying on his Dialysis Bed in his Mansion??
Hahahahahaha!!!!!
Dude has been sooo dead for 5 years that we WANT to make his death dramatic--pretty sad for all
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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Hip hip....whoo.... ralph?
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monolith
climber
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The compound had the address, not OBL. And that's assuming they even have addresses. And dialysis is only done only 1 or 2 times a week.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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You don't know either way Hutch...just sayin...
I can also understand why Buzz Aldrin punched that dude...
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Link to photos of Bin Laden's body, warning NSFW!
CIA Photos of Bin Laden"
Some how I knew you were gonna do that:-)
Dingus- you crack me up...
...as do the rest of you.
Cheers,
DD
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
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What will Wyoming's Dick Cheney have say?
Whatever you do you will end up getting to experience the consequences until you die.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Tom--you're right, I don't know either way.
BUT NEITHER DO YOU FECKERS AND THAT IS THE POINT !!!!
Y'alls logic fits you nice when you want it so--just don't forget the history and what else has been said and posted for this "CIA creation" over the last 10 years.
Occam's razor?
Apply it NOW, people of intellect
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monolith
climber
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edejom is gonna get punched by Obama in the face someday.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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mono, punching a moot point seems to be your specialty...
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monolith
climber
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You didn't get it did you? Hint: Think moon landing.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Moon landing... conspiracy... who knows.
I'll bet a part of my anatomy than none of us STers' know.
Some of you are gems... or should that be relics in a museum?
Aren't us climbers soooooooo smart. (Rhetorical for those who do not know better.)
Get on with your lives.
BTW, I'll keep that part of my anatomy.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Finally!
Now we can go back to climbing.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
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does your god have the gravitas (and hair) to trump bin Laden's god?
Those gods are bridge players? But wait. I thought the muslims and christians had the same god.
Oh, I'm so confused...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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And, the courier that was eventually tracked to Obama's house came from information obtained from a Enemy Combatant detained at Gitmo. Likely gave up the info due to waterboarding.
Oops, Fatty. Wishful thinking?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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The head-shot heard around the world.
Nice job, and congrats to U.S. Navy SEALs!!
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Dood,
Thanks for your response.
Does sound kinda personal.
Amazing compassion you show for so many.
I stand by my extremist statement, though I was with ya there for a second...until you went off the deep end about god/satan.
I hear ya loud and clear now-
spooky...
Cheers,
DD
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS -- SHUT DOWN GITMO!!!!!!!
HEADLINE TODAY: How’d we find him? Info from detainees. Sweet Guantanamo irony.
Claaaaaaaaaaasic!
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
|
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Who is "Bin Laden"?
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Who ever he is, he's just been FIRED. . .
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WBraun
climber
|
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Bullwinkle nails it ......
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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I want to see pics of the body or it didn't happen. Oh wait, we threw the body in the ocean....BUT we have DNA "evidence"
Riiiiiight.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Man you guys are naive and have very short memories . . .
You assume the following is "Conspiracy Theory," whatever that means and has come to mean. Conspiracies do indeed happen. People do conspire together to do wrong, unethical, and illegal acts. Man's History is filled with doing so.
Tell me where I'm wrong?
OBL was CIA during the Afghan/Soviet war. He was our asset. WE supported him. FACT.
The evidence shows that the CIA was instrumental in beginning "The Base" Al Qaeda (aka Al-CIA-Duh). See the sources I posted before including the BBC broadcast called, The Power of Nightmares.
We do not know that OBL was the mastermind behind 9-11-01. It was never thoroughly investigated. The 9-11 Commission Report was a sham. Even members on the commission now say so. They were not told everything. How did OBL get the US military on 9-11-01 to stand down? How does someone in a cave have that kind of influence? FACT. I can go on and on. There are more holes (and bull-dung) in the Official 9-11 Commission Report than Swiss cheese . . .
The FBI did not have OBL on their own Most Wanted list. Why? Because there was no evidence connecting OBL to 9-11. FACT.
After 9-11-01 within days, the Bin Laden family within the US, there were many of them, were allowed to safely fly out of the US before the restriction to fly for everyone else was entirely lifted. FACT. Why is that?
We never intended to capture OBL. And if we did, we would kill him. We never wanted to capture him alive and bring him to trial. Our very own boogeyman knows too many secrets. FACT.
U.S. team's mission was to kill bin Laden, not capture
WASHINGTON | Mon May 2, 2011 8:24am EDT
(Reuters) - The U.S. special forces team that hunted down Osama bin Laden was under orders to kill the al Qaeda mastermind, not capture him, a U.S. national security official told Reuters.
"This was a kill operation," the official said, making clear there was no desire to try to capture bin Laden alive in Pakistan.
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502
Man you guys are gullible.
And GOD doesn't cheer when someone loses their life, their soul, and they are lost forever. He cries and the Angels with him.
Any Christian who cheers at the death of another human being is clue-less. Even Jesus grieved for Judas who betrayed him.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
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Mr Sawyer,
I'm sorry to hear about your sister. That's rough, especially for the young man. It's good to see the uncles stepping up to take care of him, and you and your gal tying the knot. He could use an aunt right now.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
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"Pat
Your an idiot
Just off the top of my head, weapons of mass destruction? Clinton and Lewinsky?
You compare these two things
500,000 dead for oil and a lie
compared to a blow job, that was supposed to be a secret, and should of remained a secret!!
The Repubs can only function on lies
The Dems expose the lies"
I'm not talking about the gravity of the lie (I don't disagree with that), I am talking about politicians lying period, pretty common stuff across party lines. Dr. F, you're a f*#king retard if you think only one party has a monopoly on the truth.
-Patrick
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
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For all those saying this was a bad thing, what should have we done?
Should we have had the US marshalls issue a warrent or serve him papers and hope he shows up in court. I for one am happy and hopoe that this helps bring this conflict to an end. The college I work at just had a ceremony where we honored quite a few of our students who are being deployed to Afaganastan with the National Guard. Several of them have gotten to be very good friends of mine and I bet they are beaming with pride today over this news. America did not ask to start this and this seems to be one thing we have accomplished in this war.
Do you all think that his killing would have been taken better by his followers if we weren't dancing in the streets.
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WBraun
climber
|
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What should have we done?
Tell the fuking truth!
No such thing in this day and age .....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Dropping the corpse in the ocean, and so more or less conforming with Muslim burial traditions, was likely the best solution. Keeping the body in cold storage, or burying it in a known location, would just create problems. There is big tradition in Islam of pilgrimages to graves.
One assumes that they kept all possible evidence from the body - autopsy, tissue samples, photographs, and so on. Plus whatever corroborating evidence or witnesses that could be found. The backstory may be interesting, as slowly comes out.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
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Two news sevices say Saudi Arabia would not accept Bin Laden's cadaver. (?)
U.S. leaders wanted him buried the same day
so as to not trespass Islamic law.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
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How many hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians did Bush kill in Iraq, Fatty?
Ignorant horse's ass.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
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One more thing I would like to say . . .
Obama is the best Republican President that we have ever had, with the exception of Eisenhower perhaps.
Obama is a shoe-in for 2012.
He played his "Trump" card early.
lol.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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If one more person comes into the needles outpost singing "ding dong bin laden's dead..." ancient art gets it!
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"Look at your first question to me.
How insulting...
Your a hypocrite, but that is nothing new. "
I looked.
I thought it was a reasonable question, as was the second.
Show me my hypocrisy.
I can understand whacking him- it is the dancing in the streets, the celebratory of death masked in "justice" that rubs me the wrong way.
I felt the same when this was done to us by many in the MS and elsewhere.
If that is hypocrisy then I guess I'm okay with that.
It sounds more to me like revenge for you. If that is the case than call it that.
Sorry if you disagree with me on this.
"...any false religion"
Ahh-that is enlightening.
Cheers,
DD
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
|
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This morning on the Diane Rehm show there was an excellent dicussion on this topic. I think you can listen to on the web.
The CIA has know that bin Laden Osama was at this compound long enough for them to build a mockup of the buildings at the Navy Seals base in Afganistan. The Seals practiced various attacks depending on the number of people who were protecting bin Laden. President Obama gave the order last friday.
These were the guests:
John McLaughlin former acting director of the CIA and now senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
Yochi Dreazen senior national security correspondent, National Journal magazine.
Paul Pillar director, graduate studies at the Center for Peace and Security Studies at Georgetown University and a former CIA National Intelligence officer
Ahmed Rashid Pakistani journalist and author. A second edition of his book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia " has just been published. His other books include “Descent into Chaos” and “Jihad.”
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
|
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So a Seal team did in 1 night what an entire Army couldn't do it 10 years?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
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No matter how this went down, Werner and Klimmer would interpret it as a lie. Thats why your opinions are irrelevant.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
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Prove us wrong Port.
Anytime now . . . anytime.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
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Ignorant horse's ass. Amen. Is there ever an intelligent thought that emanates from that man. If so, I have yet to hear it. Makes you wonder about the drivel that must spill when he and his GOP buddies get together.
Pretty ambivalent about Osama's death. If it means that there's a smaller likelihood of additional terrorist attacks, great, though there are likely many vying to fill his place. Other than that, the guy's pretty much just a symbol at this point. I'm waiting till Dick Cheney dies before I crack open the bubbly.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Buried at sea!! That's just too funny!
Cause Obama just put down the right wing conspiracy theory that he wasn't born in the US, but now this is going to bring up all kinds of Right wing conspiracy theories (which may be true, I don't know)
Cause it's been reported long ago that Bin Laden was dead, and no sure signs of him for years either, no Obama says they killed him and buried him at sea but there will be no trial, no conclusive proof. People will go nuts!
and that's even if they actually got the real Bin Laden!!
What if Bin Laden was dead years ago and Bush and the intelligence insiders knew it!?? They could either step forward and accuse Obama and thus blow the cover on their own lies, or let him have a made up victory!! And people might not believe them!
Yuk Yuk. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Maybe Obama's setting them up to rave Bin Laden conspiracy to look nutty, even if it's true!
Perhaps it could be seen as wise if they shot him in bed when they could have captured him. The trial might have inflamed things but, on the other hand, now he is a martyr killed in battle, no good. And we've seen very little evidence of his 9-11 involvement. No better informant that OBL and the people right next to him. Did they take no prisoners? I mean, these would be the very best prisoners possible in the war on terror, the closest insiders of all?
No prisoners would be as lame and suspicious as the burial at sea if you ask me. We risk the killing of troops every day and they do die so safety for the team isn't the best excuse if you ask me.
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
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What do you mean right wing conspiracy Karl? Haven't you been reading this thread? The left wings going strong! Any right wing nut jobs will be overshadowed by the left. It's gonna be fun watching them work to the same ends.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Prove us wrong Port.
There is never proof (outside of mathematics), only evidence. This is a mistake you commonly make. And that evidence will be slowly released. But you, you've already formed your conclusions before seen anything. Your bias towards paranoia renders you incapable of lucid evidence evaluation.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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What evidence have you evaluated port?
Cheers bro
DMT
Someone was killed last night, it was likely Bin Laden.... I'll take their word for it until there is sufficient evidence showing otherwise.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Glad he's dead. Wonder what that says about my character? I'm not perfect.
Bring him to court? I don't think that would help anybody. That would be very expensive and fuel the frenzy much longer than a quick execution. Take the heat for his execution and move on. International law doesn't really exist. One of the principles had something to do with who was fair game in an armed conflict. So I am quite sure that OBL never played by those rules.
Pakistan is glad that this man hunt is over. They'll try to appease everyone. The US will take the heat. That's OK.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Any bets on how long till Roxinhishead swaps one dead mass murderer for a new one as his avitar?
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monolith
climber
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What evidence would convince you DMT?
Do you need to personally do the DNA test?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Port,
I gave you the bullet points and even links earlier to check into it. Have you? Doubt it. These aren't my sources and evidence. I didn't make this up. Facts are facts. The evidence is there if you want it.
By the way, I'm not one argueing the body isn't OBL. What I'm argueing is that he was ours, he may have gone rogue (who really knows, perhaps he was still a CIA asset), he certainly was a very handy boogeyman over the many years, he didn't really have anything to do with 9-11, he was the all famous "patsy" that we had to create and then hate. We were not about to bring him to trial. He knows too much. So we killed him. No trial. Just guilt based on no evidence. Wow, that is incredible justice. (sarcasm)
Guilty. Kill him.
Who will be next?
Is that how we do it America now?
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monolith
climber
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Hey Klimmer, when are you going to make some crappy 3D pics of the compound?
The Google earth shots are already out there.
Yea, I know DMT, nothing will convince you either way. But we both know we don't live our lives like that. We make decisions by probability and impact of outcomes.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I won't believe it until I personally examine the long form death certificate.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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Roger Breedlove said...This morning on the Diane Rehm show there was an excellent dicussion on this topic. I think you can listen to on the web.
The CIA has know that bin Laden Osama was at this compound long enough for them to build a mockup of the buildings at the Navy Seals base in Afganistan. The Seals practiced various attacks depending on the number of people who were protecting bin Laden. President Obama gave the order last friday.
These were the guests:
John McLaughlin
former acting director of the CIA and now senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
Yochi Dreazen
senior national security correspondent, National Journal magazine.
Paul Pillar
director, graduate studies at the Center for Peace and Security Studies at Georgetown University and a former CIA National Intelligence officer
Ahmed Rashid
Pakistani journalist and author. A second edition of his book "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia " has just been published. His other books include “Descent into Chaos” and “Jihad.”
Here is the link to that show.
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-05-02/reaction-death-osama-bin-laden
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Why was "Fixed News" calling Osama; Usama? What was that about?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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continually factual challenged
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monolith
climber
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A body means nothing DMT. Only a dna test can confirm to the reasonable, and those can be faked, so people can still believe what they want to believe.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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I concur about the rest of your statement. Ours is a fuzzy world where our brains piece together a picture out of incomplete information. Such as it has always been. Therefore it should be of no surprise that no two visions are exactly alike.
I completely agree with that statement. But If it wasn't him, Bin Laden will release another video to make fools of the CIA.
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Chris2
Trad climber
|
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Thanks skipt.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Thanks Gene!
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monolith
climber
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Nobody is going to deny a DNA test, if open and credible.
And how ya gonna do that RJ?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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And beside, all this is in violation of American and International Law.
If Bin Lauden was a crook, we were suppose to provide a live catch if possible and a trial. That is often done through negotiations with affected governemnts. If BL was a nationalist leader, capable of declareing wars, then we are REQUIRED to NOT TARGET HIM. And to bring him to court.
Like at the Haige.
THIS operation violated TWO nations laws, and maybe the constitution of Afganistan, also, if the mission was staged in or over it. We are suppose to agree not to attack its neighbors...
rj, you may not win the most hated ST poster, but keep up with this crap and you will be in the running for most ignorant...
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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$27,ooo,ooo bounty ?????
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shut up and pull
climber
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DISGUSTING LIBERALS:
Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:
[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done ... is done. And even to capture him now I don't think makes us any safer.
Nancy Pelosi, earlier today:
The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. ... I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. ... [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic....
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shut up and pull
climber
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DISGUSTING LIBERALS:
More information is coming out about how American intelligence identified and tracked down the al Qaeda courier who led to Osama bin Laden. It appears that the CIA's interrogations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi provided the information that began the chain the culminated in bin Laden's death yesterday:
"Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.
Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden's most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed's successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania."
KSM and Libi are two of the three al Qaeda leaders who were waterboarded. Published accounts indicate that waterboarding was key to getting valuable information from them.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Achilles knew how to dispose of a body and destroy the will of his opponents at the same time.
Yeah,
Could have fed him to Mr. Wu's pigs.
Or at least bacon wrapped him before feeding the fishies, but then that would be a waste of perfectly good bacon.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feed him to the hogs.
Video tape it, and make sure Al Jazeera gets a copy.
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shut up and pull
climber
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INTEL FROM GITMO AND WATERBOARDING USED TO FIND AND KILL BIN LADEN.
LIBS ARE STRONGLY AGAINST BOTH.
AGAIN -- DISGUSTING LIBERALS.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Fatty: no such thing as innocent civilians in war
What an incredibly stupid statement.
Tell that to the MILLIONS of truly innocent "civilians" killed just in "modern" times alone.
What a dumb fuk thing to say.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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SUAP...grabbing straws. Obama did in two years what your war mongering Bush couldn't do in eight. Shut the f*#k up and go back into the hole you came out of.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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hahaha good one fort.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: I don't believe in "innocent" civilians, not in modern warfare. But, I suspect you libs and Obama does.
What a dumb %$#@!...say anything to try and save face.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Obama said when he came into office he told Leon Panetta the first priority in the war on al queda was OBL. First of all the war on the people that attacked us not on "terror" a faceless method of coercion. Obama +1. And he focused on the leader of the people that attacked us not saddam Hussein +2
On another note how badass of a mission was that? Helis in the dark of night. No "permission" from Pakis. Drop off about 30 of the most badass dudes on the planet I hope we see the video some day
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Norton,
I don't believe in "innocent" civilians, not in modern warfare.
The evil one
---------------
WTF? No such thing as innocent civilians in war.
Can anyone believe that Fattrad actually said this?
Fuking incredible.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Norton,
I don't believe in "innocent" civilians, not in modern warfare.
The Dumbest One of ALL
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
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I love watching the Taco in action!
I'm heading back over to the Stoner's Highway page....By the way Fort, that is priceless.....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The Fet...the dumb sh#t republicans just don't get it. Obama did what he set out to do. Kill the man who plan the attack on the US on 9/11/2001.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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If they released the video, that would be remarkable.
Cause the story that OBL used a woman as a human shield is just too convenient to make him look like a coward.
Remember Jessica Lynches rescue, where the military claimed a daring rescue against a defended compound where really it was completely undefended and the "enemy" had actually tried to return her earlier but been shot at?
Or how about Tilman's death
Even there's plenty of evidence we didn't get the truth about the time and circumstances of Saddam's capture.
I neither believe not disbelieve anything I hear about this operation. The military has lately proved they care nothing for truth but just make up stories of convenience.
Maybe we'll never know, but this should be an interesting show coming up.
Wonder what "Al Queda" will say? Not that I trust them either. The US basically created them to fight the soviets in Afghanistan
Peace
Karl
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
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No one who knows anything about this thinks that OBL planned the 9/11 attack.
And you call other people ignorant . . .
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Isn't blahblah right about this?
OBL may have taken credit for 911 after it was all over.
But what's his name Saudi mastermind was captured and admitted he planned it all.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Cause the story that OBL used a woman as a human shield is just too convenient to make him look like a coward.
karl, i have seen reports that the woman was used as a shield by one of the other terrorists not OBL. have you read differently or are you talking out your ass?
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monolith
climber
|
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Yep, Karl's just creating the story he wants to ridicule.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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Just referencing other people's ass talking higher on this thread
Peace
Karl
CC posted
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Can we go home now?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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Just referencing other people's ass talking higher on this thread
ahhhhh.....it was posted on supertopo so it must be true! i feel better now.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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In July 2008, CNN's Larry King interviewed then-presidential candidate John McCain. The host asked the Republican senator, "If you were president and knew that bin Laden was in Pakistan, you know where, would you have U.S. forces go in after him?"
McCain said he would not.
"Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why: because Pakistan is a sovereign nation."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0807/28/lkl.01.html
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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proof that fattards repugnants are sissies.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hawkeye wrote
karl, i have seen reports that the woman was used as a shield by one of the other terrorists not OBL. have you read differently or are you talking out your ass?
THis posted on CNN today
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/obama-to-make-statment-tonight-subject-unknown/?hpt=T1
[Updated 2:30 p.m. ET] A woman shielded Osama bin Laden from gunfire during the assault by U.S. forces, President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser said Monday.
"There was a female who was in fact in the line of fire that reportedly was used as a shield to shield bin Laden from the incoming fire," said John Brennan, Obama's adviser on homeland security and counterterrorism.
Brennan said it was his understanding that bin Laden picked up a weapon and was killed in the firefight with the U.S. forces carrying out the assault.
"He was engaged in a firefight," Brennan said of bin Laden. "Whether or not he got off any rounds, I don't know."
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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But Ron, Pak is an important ally. We need their cooperation to make sure that countries like N. Korea don't get nukes... oops.
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monolith
climber
|
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Doesn't say Bin Laden used her as a shield, Karl. Just that she was in the way, or acted as a shield voluntarily, or was used by someone else. She was one of the wives, so she might have done something stupid to help.
Also, a woman was killed when one of the al Qaida operatives used her as a human shield, White House officials said.
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Gene
climber
|
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The news conference dude said he used her as a shield and indicated in a round about way (that was a painful pun, so too was this) that she took a bullet too. At least that's what I seemed to hear.
I thought speaker-man kinda waffled on that and indicated that maybe (1) she was a shield by choice, (2) OBL put her in the line of fire, or (3) she was between OBL and the shooters and thus was killed. One of OBL’s wives I think(?).
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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Our country (and some others as well) are killing innocent people every day in our wars, even in countries that didn't attack us. Bin Laden was "evil" in some way, killing innocents on 9-11 (although we've seen precious little evidence of his involvement), but we turned him into a bogyman to support killing far more innocents than he ever dreamed of.
But let's stop being evil, killing innocents in the way Bin Laden did. He had his "justifications" pointing to US foreign Policies oppressing Islamic countries and we have ours. Every time we support an oppressive king or dictator in the middle east, we give justification to terrorists to fight us. (what would we do if somehow the middle east somehow installed a dictator here?)
And yet we use terrorist acts here to justify endless wars in other countries, thinking that's justified. We believe what we want to believe and have incredible double standards.
We place such importance on these symbols like Bin Laden. The wheels of economic empire backed by military force keep turning and use bogymen like him to keep public opinion behind the bombing.
Bye Bye Bin Laden, former CIA operative. You were replaced by Saddam Hussien in 2003 anway when we wanted a new war, and just became a mystery. Now we have Gaddafi (but not the Saudi King)
We're told who is the demon and focus on that. It's a puppet shadow play even if the demon is actually bad. Who dies and whose country gets bombed are different matters
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
|
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People believe everything they read in the news.
Such sheep.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
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Karl - well put, but as its often said 'The Show Must Go On!'
If it wasn't this particular puppet show it'd be another.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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It will be interesting to hear exactly what happened, including the events leading up to the attack, and how bin Laden died. Hopefully not by someone pulling the plug on his dialysis machine... There must be a great deal of evidence about what happened, although with the fog of war, putting the pieces together may take time. As with identification of the body, I'd guess they'll be very thorough about it - there are enough whackjob conspiracy theories floating around already.
As I mentioned earlier, the fact that it was a ground rather than aerial assault indicates that they wanted an identifiable body, if not a prisoner.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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there are enough whackjob conspiracy theories floating around already
hehe.. klimmer and rokjerx are dreaming one up now.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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i am good with saying that the SEALs loved the guy to death. works for me.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
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When "civilians" are the the ones producing the bombs, bullets, food, boots, uniforms, etc., then they no longer are "innocent". Perhaps in ancient cultures, where the warriors hunted their own food, made their own weapons, then there were "innocents". Hence the bombing of factories, infrastucture and food stocks in modern warfare.
Curtis LeMay would be proud of you, fattrad.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
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Quick question to anyone who claims knowledge of "international law" or Pakistani domestic law--
Why isn't it murder when US special forces go into Pakistan and kill civilians?
Let's say Gaddafi is pissed off at some Libyan living in the US and sends a Libyan military hit squad into the US to kill said Libyan, and they do. Sure seems like Gaddafi and the members of that hit squad have all committed murder under US law.
Remember that the US is not officially at war with anyone now, certainly not Pakistan. And even if what Obama (and the hit squad) does is legal under US law (which I'm not sure about), how is it legal under Pakistan law (which I'm really not sure about)?
I know a lot of you don't like the implications of this but this is a SERIOUS question. I'm not blaming Obama specifically because he is just doing what the Republicans would also do (and did), although he does seem to have extra relish for drone strikes and the like.
Maybe there is an answer to this, but it's not obvious to me and I would really like to know.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr
Paul, thanks for posting that truth from MLK.
bahhh Hawkeye.. Im sure they gave a very loving double tap to his cran-eee-ummm. And Martin Luther King never saw an enemy like bin-waden. The only thing better would have been to feed him to a bunch of freekin hawgs....;-) Now wait for the attack-to remind-us that jihad still goes on.
RA,
Sure he did. They killed him. Read Act of State. MLK knew all too well. In fact, it probably is one and the same if truth be told, and we knew the full truth of the entire matter.
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shut up and pull
climber
|
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INTEL FROM GITMO AND WATERBOARDING USED TO FIND AND KILL BIN LADEN.
LIBS ARE STRONGLY AGAINST BOTH.
AGAIN -- DISGUSTING LIBERALS.
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS = BUSH CAUSED 911! NOW = HOORAY FOR BARRY HUSSEIN FOR KILLING OSAMA, THE MASTERMIND OF 911. See any incongruity?
Headline: Capture seen as vindication for 'harshest interrogation methods'...
Poor liberals -- what are you going to say now about waterboarding and Gitmo?
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shut up and pull
climber
|
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ONE QUESTION TO ALL THE LIBERALS IN HERE:
WHAT JUSTIFICATION DID BARRY HUSSEIN USE TO ASSASSINATE OSAMA?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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Assume that someone was tortured at Guantanamo into revealing the name and perhaps other information about an al Qaeda operative, four or five or more years ago. Pretty distant connection from that to yesterday's operation. I suspect that there were multiple sources of intelligence, and perhaps even that the Pakistani government threw bin Laden to the US once it became clear that the jig was up. It seems certain that there was an enormous amount of work to follow up and confirm a tenuous lead, and make something of it - which is the real work.
At this point, it's mostly mental speculations anyway. The full story won't come out for a while, if ever.
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBS = Waterboarding is torrrrrrrrture! Be nice to the terrorists so they won't attack us! Gitmo causes the barbarians to attack us!
Lets see:
1. Gitmo open and doing business under Obama? Yup.
2. Patriot Act repealed under the Dems? Nope.
3. KSM 911 mastermind tried in NYC as Obama promised? Nope.
4. Waterboarding used to get the intel that led to OBL's death? Yup.
Hey libs -- do you ever get tired of just being plain-ass wrong all the time?
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shut up and pull
climber
|
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OBAMA -- MAKING THE MUSLIM WORLD OUR FRIEND AS PROMISED?
HEADLINES:
Obama: U.S. Carried Out Operation 'At My Direction'...
Killing brings anger in Arab world...
Pakistanis rally to pay homage to bin Laden...
Musharraf: Mission violated sovereignty...
Hamas condemns killing of 'holy warrior'...
Arabs Riot in Jerusalem Over Death...
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Chris2
Trad climber
|
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^Please, apply your user name to self.^
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shut up and pull
climber
|
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BUT WAIT -- OBAMA PROMISED TO BRING HIM TO JUSTICE HERE IN THE U.S., AND NOW HE RESORTS TO ASSASSINATION?
SHOT IN HEAD; BIN LADEN IS DEAD.....
Wow -- the liberals' minds must be swimming with all these contradictions.
Namely -- how do we reconcile our appeasing-the-terrorists beliefs with our hopey-changey president who just ordered the murder of an individual on foreign soil?
Ahhhh the contradictions are tooo fun!
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Park Rat
Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
|
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I went to Google Earth and put in ABBOTTABAD PAKISTAN OSAMA BIN Laden's compound hideout.
You get a great picture of his place relative to the town.
I think we can say his fate was Sealed today.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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But the usual fantasists insist on thinking there's something fishy about it all. And Obama is sleeping with the fishes.
(Yes, I know that a seal isn't a fish.)
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shut up and pull
climber
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CAN'T. STOP. LAUGHING. MUST. LIE. DOWN.
The Irony Grows Deeper – Key Intel Came From Enhanced Interrogations In Secret Prisons.
Information from Guantanamo detainees made it possible to locate bin Laden.
They told me that if I voted for McCain, we’d get a continuation of Bush’s wartime policies. AND THEY WERE RIGHT!
“A Nobel peace prize winner carrying out a successful assassination!”
WHAT ABOUT THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS? Mission was to kill Bin Laden, not capture. “The U.S. special forces team that hunted down Osama bin Laden was under orders to kill the al Qaeda mastermind, not capture him, a U.S. national security official told Reuters.”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
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Yo Shut Up,
Did I not say Obama is the best Republican president since Eisenhower?
Edit:
The differnece between Dems and Independants vs. Repugs is that we think on our own. We can be critical of our own, and we call them out when they are screwing up.
The Repugs just don't think at all. The Repugs worship at the feet of their masters no matter what, and swallow hook, line, and sinker and enjoy it and then they want more of the same. They will vote against their own self-interest time and time again.
We won't. We learn.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
|
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A seal isn't a fish? But it's STILL a Squid!
Sorry, I'm with MLK & Bob on this. No hate. Hate is for lesser creatures.
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shut up and pull
climber
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LAUGHING. SO. HARD. MUST. CATCH. BREATH.
In early 2004, Howard Dean — who was then leading the Democratic presidential field and would go on to become chairman of the Democratic National Committee — explained that he could not judge what should befall bin Laden because the terror master had not yet had a fair trial and been convicted by a jury. Those in “positions of executive power,” he declaimed, should not “prejudge jury trials.”
OBAMA NOW: Obama: U.S. Carried Out Operation 'At My Direction'...
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shut up and pull
climber
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THE. LAUGHTER. JUST. WON'T. STOP.
Immediately after 9/11, when Democrats had been anxious to prove they could be just as tough on terrorists as Bush, Eric Holder had admonished a CNN host that “we are in the middle of a war,” and thus that captured terrorists should be detained without trial as “combatants” — in addition to being denied Geneva Convention rights so that “we . . . have an opportunity to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located.” But by 2008, while serving as a senior adviser to the Obama campaign, Holder was bemoaning Bush’s failure to treat captured terrorists “in accordance with the Geneva Conventions,” and condemning Bush counterterrorism as a green light for “torture” and a betrayal of the “rule of law.”
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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The full tilt meltdown of SUAP is almost as cool as Bin Laden getting chopped. Almost.
Justice was death penalty. Crime was confessed to loudly. I'd say he was brought to justice, and unlike McCain who said during the election tjat he would never go after Bin Laden in Pakistan without their approval, Obama said he'd wack him with or without their approval.
Don't do anything rash SUAP, after the denial and the anger pass, you can move on to the other stages of grief: bargaining "well, it was REALLY Bush who got him because...", then acceptance "yes, the black President intimidates me and makes me question my manhood, but I guess he did good on this one". LMFAO.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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This is about warriors doing their job plain & simple. Those guys would do their job for free; born killers. They were breed to do it. War & death are normal, poltics & religion just give them a reason.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Obama should have walked up to the podium and said "Here's my birth certificate, bitch" and then pulled OBL's head out of a bag and dropped it on the floor. Then he shoulda pimp stepped out of there tossing a peace sign.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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The Repugs just don't think at all. The Repugs worship at the feet of their masters no matter what, and swallow hook, line, and sinker and enjoy it and then they want more of the same. They will vote against their own self-interest time and time again.
A shallow and misinformed understanding of republican politics.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Personally, I believe a trial would have been preferable to Usama's assassination, but the Right would bitch either way.
I don't give a crap what you "believe" but I would like to know what is accordance with THE LAW!
Last time I checked, when you go around KILLING people, that is murder (unless it is pursuant to a valid court order).
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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They were able to fairly try the Nazis after World War II, in the full glare of the public. Including some big fish - Hermann Goering and company were in a different league entirely from bin Laden. Somewhat victor's justice, but it was a precedent.
The big difference being that bin Laden and al Qaeda are simply ideologically-motivated mass murderers, and didn't act for a state. It might have been a stretch to argue that they met the international legal definition of war criminals. A trial might have been embarrassing, a soapbox, and perhaps revealed some secrets, but was feasible. But it is difficult to argue that it was unjust that he was shot while resisting arrest.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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fatty said [Pakistan] often supports the Taliban.
Fixed that for ya
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I wonder if the body is actually in a container full of formaldehyde, with a transponder, in a known location in the ocean, maybe with fairly shallow water? Just in case, as it were. (But tied to a big rock.)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I would wager ten to one that however many people were in that compound is the number that were killed. The SEALS weren't there to take prisoners. Two to the head and one to the chest, "Just to make sure he was dead." Harsh, but that's the reality with Black Ops.
JL
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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I'd have mulched him. It's a shame to waste good mulch.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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BES1'st is NOT from the USA.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Hey Klimmer,
I was in DC, across the river from the Pentagon. I saw the plane hit. I made it back to my office near the Capitol, sent everyone home (there were rumors of another plane targeting the Capitol - turned out to be flight 93), and walked the 5 miles home to my girlfriend, who'd moved to DC two days before.
Looks like we have an eyewitness to the attack at the pentagon on supertopo. Ready to admit you're wrong?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1485177&tn=20
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Gene
climber
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BES1'st is NOT from the USA.
BES1'st is the USA.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Obama should have walked up to the podium and said "Here's my birth certificate, bitch" and then pulled OBL's head out of a bag and dropped it on the floor. Then he shoulda pimp stepped out of there tossing a peace sign.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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BES1'st is NOT from the USA.
You sure he's even from this planet?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
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Bin Laden is dead , but we still have rap bolters and hip hop music.......we need to go after them next......
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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I do think it's not a good idea to crow too loudly over the death of one's opponent. In victory one can afford to be magnanimous.
But this is funny as hell.
Bin Laden Dead: Video animation of terrorist leader's final moments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw0AXjAaf3g
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
|
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Latest reports claim that bin Laden didn't take a shower yesterday.
He figured he could just wash up on shore.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Fatty said Pakistan doesn't know what to do
Why are you such an apologist for those that aid our enemies? Why do you hate America?
fatty continued Forward to join the modern world or backward
Are you talking about Pakistan now or America? Supporting torture. Unlimited detention. Trials without integrity.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
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Things we hope happened....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
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I used to think Corniss was the dumbest fuk to ever post here.
But lately, Fattrad has taken over that title.
His postings have gotten increasingly irrational, sophomoric.
He seems to have only one agenda, and that is to find something, no matter how convoluted and trivial, to denigrate the President.
At a time when many Americans are openly celebrating the death of Bin Laden
Fattrad grasps to find something, anything, to criticize. Now he claims that the
President broke international law, and claims the President killed innocent civilians.
Fattrad is becoming pathological, irrational, mean, trite, and frankly a real horse's ass.
edit: yes, Dirt I saw that. But our boy here just can't bring himself to give the slightest credit without at the same time finding some way to insult the President.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Norton, even Rush gave Obama a lot of credit for this.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
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Skip, I don't get it. What is with those guys getting hurt working on the house?
Your point?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Some have claimed it is unseemly to openly celebrate defeating a foe, much like the US was offended when some in Arab streets celebrated 9-11
So while it's questionable that Obama broke in on Donald Trump's show to announce the killing of OBL, he gracefully avoided any direct reference like "Put that in your pipe and smoke it Don Boy!"
Behind closed door, you have to wonder if he's got a smug bliss about this
:-0
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Norton - that's why we all like you so much. Always looking for meaning
in a chaotic world devoid of all meaning.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
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So while it's questionable that Obama broke in on Donald Trump's show to announce the killing of OBL
Sorry, not questionable at all. Obama had to make the announcement as soon as the news was confirmed, and would have been pilloried had he not. Whether he broke into a vacuous TV show, or one of substance, is irrelevant.
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Gene
climber
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Thank you dirtbag.
Quit bitching you miserable hags.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oh come on AC, can't you read anything?
;-)
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
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Great. Now we will have 5+ years of threads asserting (i) it's a hoax; (ii) OBL's body was on ice in a CIA spider hole awaiting a favorable political opportunity; (iii) Reagan deserves all the credit; (iv) Obama should be prosecuted for not giving him a fair trial; (v) it was insensitive to throw the body off a boat and (vi) multiple additional threads on whatever Sarah has to say about all of this.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Skipt quipped You need to waterboard Crowley at the next facelift and see if he'll give up all his tree trimming secrets.
Yeah man. I mean I bet he'll say literally ANYTHING to make you stop. In fact I bet if you told him what you wanted him to say then he'd say it. I guess that's why Iran is so deft at getting confessions.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Sooooo funny watching libs acting all macho about Hopey gettin bin Laden.
Just too funny.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Libs now into pulling out Osama's head out for show and tell?
What?
Just. Too. Funny.
These are same libs who whined that Gitmo detainees werent getting civilian trials.
Again. Just. Too. Funny.
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tom Carter
Social climber
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"Because it's judgment that defeats us".
The world is complicated. Do your part by really trying to speak only if you know what is true.
It starts with each of us.
Only way to clean it up is to do it yourself.
Lovegasoline - thanks for that dialog - ever read "Dispatches"?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dingus, yes I have been a frequent critic of former President Bush.
I have also given him credit when he deserved it, without in the same post denigrating him.
To answer your question.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Oh -- now libs are saying Bush was right alllllll along in his fight against radical muslims.
Libs -- do you ever get tired of just looking like fools?
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shut up and pull
climber
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FEEL ALL THE HOPEY AND CHANGEY!
Obama: U.S. Carried Out Operation 'At My Direction'...
Killing brings anger, relief in Arab world...
Pakistanis rally to pay homage to bin Laden...
Musharraf: Mission violated sovereignty...
Hamas condemns killing of 'holy warrior'...
Arabs Riot in Jerusalem Over Death...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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suap when are you going to stop quoting Palin over and over and over
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shut up and pull
climber
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LAUGHING. TOO. HARD. MUST. CATCH. BREATH.
WHAT WILL THE LIBS SAY ABOUT THEIR HOPEY CHANGEY PREZ?
One of the tastiest morsels in today’s banquet of intel details.
Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.
Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.
One U.S. official, speaking to the LA Times, noted drily, “That took years and these guys don’t give it up all willingly.” So much for the canard that enhanced interrogation never, under any circumstances, yields useful information. I’m trying to get the timeline straight, though. Apparently, sometime between 2002 and 2007, KSM and/or al-Libi revealed the courier’s pseudonym to the CIA while at a secret prison; then, four years ago, the CIA finally figured out the courier’s real name, which was the first big break in tracking him to Bin Laden’s door.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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wow u r such a gr8 troll m8
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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i am so trolled rite now
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
|
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so mad. i so mad
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shut up and pull
climber
|
|
Just too funny.
For a decade libs told us the following:
1. Muslims attack us because we are the problem.
2. 9-11 was caused by BushCo.
3. Osama bin Laden was justified in attacking us on 911.
4. Gitmo MUST be closed.
5. Strong interrogation techniques are BAAAAAAAD.
6. The Patriot Act MUST be repealed.
7. KSM MUST be tried in NYC.
Hey libs -- now that Osama is dead via Gitmo, waterboarding, secret prisons, etc. -- and Obama did the killin, what you say now?
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Take anger management.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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So while it's questionable that Obama broke in on Donald Trump's show to announce the killing of OBL
Sorry, not questionable at all. Obama had to make the announcement as soon as the news was confirmed, and would have been pilloried had he not. Whether he broke into a vacuous TV show, or one of substance, is irrelevant.
I was joking Anders. Pretty ironically humorous through in a macho kinda way
Peace
Karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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The biggest lie of all?
That liberals were really against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or Gitmo, or waterboarding, or the Patriot Act, etc.
How do we know they were lying? Because they don't say jack now that Obama is prez, and he is following the same policies, including assassinating a person on foreign soil.
Libs -- your cover has been blown. Big time.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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SUAP wrote: Hey libs -- now that Osama is dead via Gitmo, waterboarding, secret prisons, etc. -- and Obama did the killin, what you say now?
Dumbsh#t...Osama is dead because we have a president who knew what to do to make that happen. Not some dumb sh#t like Bush who invaded Iraq.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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High wrote: Hahaha,
al Qaeda's got itself a leadership crisis now.
And America doesn't...Obama is a walk in for four more years.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
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507 posts and he's still dead- the taco is proving it's worth!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Bob,
Touché.
.....
"It is a better place because of the death of Osama bin Laden."
President Obama, today.
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Gene
climber
|
|
The goddamned pizza shoulda been here by now! WTF?
Is Hillary packing a 7/11 coffee cup?
Damn It, LeBron. That shot was a gimme.
Air Force guy has a serious Solitaire issue.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
Air Force guy has a serious Solitaire issue.
Or maybe he's a closet Supertopo addict?
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
|
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shut up and pull
climber
|
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AND SHE WAS THE DEM LEADER IN THE HOUSE?
Nancy Pelosi, press conference, September 7, 2006:
[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done ... is done. And even to capture him now I don't think makes us any safer.
Nancy Pelosi, earlier today:
The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. ... I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. ... [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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So when the front leading republican president candidate was dropping the f-bomb and worrying about Obama place of birth...the real president was doing his job.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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U.S. intelligence uncovered the courier's identity four years ago "from a different part of the world," the senior U.S. official said. He declined to say where
Fatboy's right. KSM sang under water. Not only did we get the courier's name, but we stopped some other major attacks in the planning.
And if water-boarding is illegal in extreme cases, why do y'all say about violating a nation's sovereignty without a former declaration of war and killing their inhabitants???
Got hypocrisy?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
while the pres was gettin her done, fatty was still lookin for that lipstick on a pig.
edit:
why do y'all say about violating a nation's sovereignty without a former declaration of war and killing their inhabitants???
so bluey i take it you wish the motherf*#ker was still alive? didnt the mofo violate our sovereignity first?
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
|
|
Yall really think Obama had much to do with this? You guys are too funny. You each want your guy to take the credit for this and for the other dude's guy to look like an imbicile. What a silly little girlfight.
By the way, what is that a picture of in front of Missus Clinton?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
And if water-boarding is illegal in extreme cases, why do y'all say about violating a nation's sovereignty without a former declaration of war and killing their inhabitants???
Got hypocrisy?
We should not do it.
In this case, I don't think we did that. I believe that we had permission.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001), one of two resolutions commonly known as "AUMF" (the other being "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002"), was a joint resolution passed by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001, authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on September 11, 2001. The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the September 11th attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups. The AUMF was signed by President George W. Bush on September 18, 2001.
.
f*#kin retards like SUAP, bluey, fattard......the president had every legal right to kill OBL.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
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Hawk wrote: f*#kin retards like SUAP, bluey, fattard......the president had every legal right to kill OBL.
Did you expect anything less from them?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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they never fail to disappoint....
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
|
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
— Martin Luther King Jr.
TYeary
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jstan
climber
|
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We elect a President to make decisions. Any choice that is obviously correct, is not a decision.
Our worship of partisan politics, threatens to make us
impotent.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
We seem to be violating international law all the time these days and it's nothing new. We just feel entitled.
And it's not just because of the OBL boogeyman, we have been violating it in Waziristan all along, it just takes a little more balls and excuses to do it in a Pakistani Military town.
And you do have to hand it to Obama, it does appear that he did what Bush spend a trillion trying to do. Ya'll want a more efficient government eh?
But after the feel good is over, what's really accomplished or changed. (maybe if we pull out somewhere) except that he's still trying to get the GOP to work with him and not be so partisan, a nice thought.
But Bin Laden?
Osama was old and repeatedly expressed a desire to die as a martyr rather than die of old age or in prison. So we really didn't hurt him per se, just fullfilled his wish just as we fulfilled his stated strategy, which was to bankrupt the US by causing us to overuse our military. (how Reagan alledgedly bankrupted the soviet union)
Bin Laden and the Islamists had no shortage of opportunities to spread their message. Are we really afraid his ideas have such power that a trial would spread them? Having him prisoner would be a much greater blow to radical islamist sensibilities.
Peace
Karl
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
let's say the U.S. violated "international law" ...
... that's what superpowers do (see China, see U.S.)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
|
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bluering said Got hypocrisy?
Got birth certificate?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
I'm very happy Obama gave to 'go-order'. Very happy.
Just be careful when you accuse Bush of violating Int'l Law and needs to be prosecuted. The whole Int'l Criminal Court is a European suck-fest.
We act in our own interests, as we should. F*#k the ICC! Obama acted against ICC rules and good for him!
Side-note: Milestone Alert!!! My son just took his first crap in a toilet. It was a double tap!
I think my son has officially sh#t on OBL by introducing his feces into the water supply. Good boy!
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Gene
climber
|
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This thread is over. Thank you.
Our closing credits...
Side-note: Milestone Alert!!! My son just took his first crap in a toilet. It was a double tap!
I think my son has officially sh#t on OBL by introducing his feces into the water supply. Good boy!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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Assassinating people in a sovereign country? Bombing Libyans without a formal war declaration?
I'm not opposed to either. But let's gauge our criticism properly.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Side-note: Milestone Alert!!! My son just took his first crap in a toilet. It was a double tap!
LOL
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
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Oh, Obama had every right according to US law and I'm glad he did. But, he violated many international laws. It's Israeli law to go into foreign countries to elimate terrorists, so it would be just fine if they did it here..... right????
Maybe UncleDoug should worry about my friends in the Mossad (jk).
Bwahahahahahaahaha
The evil one
Fattrad and Bluey--good job on exposing the hypocrisy and ignorance on the part of those who believe that Obama and the kill squad complied with Pakastani and International law. Keep up the good work.
Most people don't seem to care, and a few particularly ignorant posters seem to think that Congress can somehow override international law and those of other, soverign countries, but maybe someone will learn something.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Seriously guys let's be reasonable! bluering demands it!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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I'm totally serious too, granite. It was a bloop-bloop, and me and him looked at each other in astonishment. It was priceless! He was worried and I was shocked at the development.
Eat sh#t, Osama Bin Laden.
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
|
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DMT is on a roll in this thread.
p0wned!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Now, for all you chihuahuas of war, President Obama has more leverage against Pakistan than at any point in the Bush admin. Now they can press for other high level hide outs.
President Obama seems to have managed a brilliant operation conducted on his personal orders.
COMMANDERS do that. They take decisions and take the consequences. Violation of International Law? Send your wig wearing attorney to the Haig and file the f*#king charges, m kay?
Lol.
Totally agree. And it doesn't make as many headlines, but under Obama the drone-zaps in Pakistan have been outstanding and countless. I say, "Nice job!".
Another violation of Int'l law and sovereignty? I don't really care!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Kinda shallow coverage of this altogether. Did they kill everyone in the compound or did the Pakistanis come in and take some prisoners themselves, or did we just fly away and let everyone else go? Will be interesting to find out (if we do) Hopefully they collected some intel from the place.
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Karl - others were in the compound and injured. They were treated at the local hospital. For instance, a wife was shot in the leg.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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Waterboarding never revealed anything, except how fuked up the Republican mind really is....
You're wrong. Asking for proof of black operations is idiotic. KSM sang like a hairy little bird after about 100 water-board trips. We broke him.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
On the drive home I tuned into local clown radio in LA. Even those whores (my apologies to whores)John and Ken were congratulating Obama for a job Bush couldn't do. Amazing!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
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Show us definitive proof that waterboarding has yielded actionable intelligence or saved lives...
waiting
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Go ahead, KerBleuy....
Show us definitive proof that waterboarding has yielded actionable intelligence or saved lives...
The evidence has been released. You'll never believe it, but it has been stated that KSM revealed active plots that were eventually dismantled.
Crimpie, I know, that's why I used the term 'double-tap'....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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Coz wrote
I have question for you Karl, Do you think suicide bombings are justified, because America kills civilian, by accident defending herself.
A simple yes or no, will do for me.
Not justified on the suicide bombing question.
It's hard to identify many Guilty people in Iraq though and we killed many, many thousands and millions are homeless refugees. It's become clear that the administration knew they weren't involved in 9-11 nor had WMDs. So that's a lot of killing innocents.
Now answer me this, in some distant future after our economy collapsed or somethign, If an Islamic country somehow invaded the US on false pretenses and occupied the streets with a puppet government in command, what actions of US citizens fighting the occupier would be justified, or that we might do anyway even if not justified?
peace
karl
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monolith
climber
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That's "rendition", silly boy Fattrad, not "redaction".
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Well, "Commander Torture" and his minions have doubts as to whether torture actually led to this intelligence to kill OBL . . .
Rumsfeld: Bin Laden Info From Gitmo Detainees Was Not Obtained Through ‘Harsh Treatment’
Source: Think Progress
Rumsfeld: Bin Laden Info From Gitmo Detainees Was Not Obtained Through ‘Harsh Treatment’ Or ‘Waterboarding’
The New York Times reported today that some of the information that led U.S. intelligence officials to ultimately determine Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts was obtained from detainees at Guantanamo Bay:
.............
Dick Cheney said today that “it wouldn’t be surprising” the intel came from Bush’s torture program. However, there is currently no evidence to suggest that the detainees that provided the information that led to bin Laden were subject to torture. And Bush Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who presumably has some knowledge about what went on at Gitmo, today threw some cold water on this theory:
*“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”
Without any evidence, and without Rumsfeld’s blessing, it seems like conservatives are going to have to work a little bit harder at trying to take credit for bin Laden’s death.
Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/2011/05/02/rumsfeld-bin-laden-gitmo
Intelligence through the torture of human beings is immoral, and you know it. There are other ways. Be smart. There are no reasons we as a nation have to stoop to their level and become barbaric. It's all 100% USDA Bovine Dung to do so and to make any argument that we should.
It's all Bull.
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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I'd pay good money for that.
Though I suggest we put fattrad on the board as well. For reasons of principle only, of course.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Ok Jeff, I read the CNN article.
Not one word in there about waterboarding.
Answer AC's question: Prove that waterboarding produced actionable intelligence.
You have NOT, thus far, dipwad.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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The president's men said right there on the TV they did not tell Pakistani officials about this operation until after the men were out of the country.
A slight point, but this statement doesn't mean that there wasn't a previous agreement in place that would allow the US to enter the country to get Bin Laden whenever he was found.
Another fine point. We could have been attempting to capture him alive, to put him on trial, and the circumstances didn't allow for that to happen. Not that I necessarily believe this, but that point could be made. Which would make this an arrest attempt gone wrong, and these things happen. So we didn't necessarily break any international law.
Whereas torture is clearly against international law.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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deja vu?
Nixon - When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Even shameless idiots like me can post here...
Even though I know nothing about what I post, r how it is even relevant to anything at all... I can post too.
Even when I have no say in anything or the outcomes of any action (whether political, economic, social, etc., etc., locally, or world wide) I too can post here....
So.... So can fattrad
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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This thread is hilarious. Bush lost OBL, pulled out of Afghanistan to and basically stopped looking for him. Obama then went all in in Afghanistan, pushed in Pakistan hard and found him and now the only way the Repubs in here can claim any kind of part in this is to pretend that the intel came from torturing people at Gitmo. That assertion, like the idea that Obama wasn't an American, appears to be based on nothing. Pretty sad.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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It's cage fight hour on the taco...woot...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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"You are the most clueless ST poster of all time."
 yeah, but I got you pegged, that's fa'show!!!!
And, just like you, no matter how out of I am, I can post here too.
bwahahaa
"You are the most clueless ST poster of all time."
You'd probably have a few takers on that one, but all I'd have to do is bring up your alter-ego and the conversation would be over, chubs.
Just like my climbing career, you're done.
Oh, hey, good call by the way.. you really set me in my place, pulling the "clueless" card.. but if you just take another look at my previous post, you will see... I beat you to that too!
AC - Thanks. Dealing with the lessors of society remind me of a brilliant statement uttered in my direction "There's no way to reverse decline like this Jingy...."
True, so true... there is no way to reverse decline like this..... like fatty-mcballchinian
Coz - "I'm trying to get these talking heads to step down, so guys like you can post."
Not bloody likely Coz. They just like the look of their words on the screen... Its a false sense of empowerment.....
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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I dunno, Riley...They spew a lot. Mostly just spew.
Some folks talk too much. Move on, people. Just sayin'.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Wow, I know a guy with seal team six. I met him while camping in San Diego with his very beautiful wife. This is very interesting...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The only interesting aspect of this is exactly what parade of Pakistani pols and ISI personnel were in contact with the residence or the courier, ditto for Saudis, Egyptians, and others in the region over the past year or so of surveillance. Probably a few nervous souls out there now.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Wow, I know a guy with seal team six. I met him while camping in San Diego with his very beautiful wife. This is very interesting...
Sorry but I'm skeptical. First rule of Seal Team Six is you don't talk about Seal Team Six and all that. Apparently it's not even an official designation. I think maybe got got scammed by a rescue diver or someone.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Joseph has a good point - there definitely will be follow up, as they look at whatever evidence they seized, and trace the threads. Probably a few senior people in the Pakistani military and ISI are wondering what's next.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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It's not difficult to find Seal members in San Diego if you know where to look.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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the commandos moved inside, and finally reached bin Laden’s upstairs living quarters after nearly 40 minutes on the ground. What words if any were exchanged between the Americans and the Saudi-born terrorist are not publicly known, but the SEALs used the code word “Geronimo” to inform their commanders that they had found the target.
“The woman presumed to be his wife . . . was shielding bin Laden,” Brennan said, adding that it was not clear that anyone had forced her to take the action. The White House later said that a woman who died in the assault was not one of bin Laden’s wives.
The al-Qaeda leader was shot at at least once in the head and died instantly, U.S. officials said.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Joseph has a good point - there definitely will be follow up, as they look at whatever evidence they seized, and trace the threads. Probably a few senior people in the Pakistani military and ISI are wondering what's next.
Keep an eye out for upcoming drone-zaps in the next week or two.
As for SEALs in San Diego, yeah, they're there, granite. But they keep a low profile usually.
And SEAL team 6 is not only super badass, but very hush-hush. As they should be...
EDIT: Apparently 'Team 6' is made up of the best of the SEALs. The elite of the elite, if you will.
They operate out of the bounds of military and Int'l law. No paperwork, no accountability. Just do the job.
I like that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Maybe it's time to remember that the Times of India reported in 2001 that the Pakistani ISI chief was responsble for wiring Mohammed Atta $100,000 before 9-11.
Now there is a lot of Speculation about our Pakistani Allies, since Bin Laden was discovered living in a military area with ISI there too. Did they know or help Bin Laden?
Now, Pakistan has got a huge population, significant military and possesses nukes too. We're already up to our neck in war so you might imagine that even if we find the Pakistani's have been stabbing us in the back, those facts will be suppressed or minimized. That's just the way practical politics work. We only fight weak foes, and even those take a lot of money to dominate.
The role of Pakistan in US terrorism and the Taliban in Afghanistan as well has already been relatively unexamined publicly. Afghanistan would have a hard time making trouble for the US outside of it's borders, Pakistan is another story. They probably would never make it here but we'd never have them pacified either and they have no oil.
Peace
Karl
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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Turn it all to glass
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Turn it all to glass
That's what my marine family member says.
It always strikes me as strange that someone would advocate killing millions of innocent people, surpassing Hitler's numbers of victims and then some. They claim any attacks on the US were unjustified but are ready to attack huge masses with less cause.
really?
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Removing nukes from Pakistan and India would be optimal, bummer that cat's out of the bag. Pakistan is a complex, faceted, layered affair and not one amenable to glassing over.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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One thing's for sure, Obama is lucky!
Carter got totally dissed when his rescue mission went bad, and Obama's mission lost one of their helicopters so it came close.
I mean, seems like they would have had to tell Pakistan they were coming (to be denied of course) or risk being shot out of the sky (cause this isn't Waziristan, but a military place) but then what if Bin Laden were in Bed with the Pakistani's? They'd lose their man.
So what if Obama had tried the mission but they got shot down and it became an international incident?
Ironically, if the Pakistan Government denies knowing Americans were coming, they'll look stupid for not having any defenses, and folks will claim, conspiracy theory style, "the Government knew" and they probably did!
Again, helps to be lucky or way smarter in ways we don't see all the details of.
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It should also be noted that our troubles with OBL, the Taliban, and the Hussein family could all have been dealt with through a combination of Predator strikes and raids like this one - both wars were completely unnecessary for the task of removing those responsible for 9/11 and informing their successors we'd keep it up into perpetuity until someone got a clue along the way.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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For those who support Wikileaks, consider this:
This whole 4 year operation depended upon finding the courier. It is what allowed Usama to be caught.
If AT ANY TIME, it became known that he was being sought by the west, he would have immediately been found in a ditch, and the link lost.
The week before the killing, Wikileaks published his name in a diplomatic cable.
How close did we come to completely upending this operation? We had the location by them, but they could have moved Usama. They could have "prepared" the mansion. This could have been an unmitigated disaster for the US, resulting in the loss of the entire mission crew.
Yeah, Wikileaks is totally benign. NOT
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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What would the great Khan do as he rode down from the North?
It's ironic when you look back at history, we didn't win many wars just time consuming battles. The winners are the ones who out breed their foe's.
The Mexicans & Chinese will rule the world but China will come apart since there are no women. They will try to get wives from PI but it will be way too late.
In the end the catholic church will rule the Mexican hordes...& so it begins. I'm impressed with how old Mexico beat the great American super power & regained their land without raising a weapon. The only thing that wins in the end is breeding.
Just a rant from the most isolated islands in the world. We have ha'oles here & Mexicans too. As George Lopez says don't come to us we will come to you. Funny caca...
RG
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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In the end the catholic church will rule the Mexican hordes...& so it begins. I'm impressed with how old Mexico beat the great American super power & regained their land without raising a weapon. The only thing that wins in the end is breeding.
It's an interesting point. The Palestinians under Arafat basically stated they planned to breed their way to dominating Israel.
There are some who believe the use of Depleted Uranium munitions in Iraq and Afghanistan are meant to be (or will function as) a long term weapon against those peoples for generations as the dust lodges in their bodies and causes birth defects and cancer for long periods after the troops go home
Personally, I don't know but Have seen evidence that DU affects the health of everyone in the whole area where it's exploded.
Peace
Karl
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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What helped do Bin Laden in was moving into a comfortable setting...bad habits die hard...if he had hung out with the goat herders he may have lasted longer...? Poor little rich kid...
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Karl - in the short time since it happened, it has been reported that Pakistan stated they got Osama with us (i.e., joint effort); we did it with their knowledge and support; we did it without telling them anything. Wonder if the truth will ever be known.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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who gets
to be
the next
boogieman?
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nature
climber
Krabi, Thailand
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It's cage fight hour on the taco...woot...
ho man... I almost sprayed the macbook pro with Singha after reading that one.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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who gets
to be
the next
boogieman?
I nominate fattrad.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Visit Pakistan;......try something different than Disneyworld or the Hamptons this year...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Now who will I stay with when I'm in Islamabad......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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It is hilarious to watch republicans give credit to Bush for the capture/killing of Osama but assume no responsibility for his policies that tanked the country.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nice one Bob!
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dirtbag
climber
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Fatty, what would you do about Pakistan?
Unfortunately, we need their help.
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dirtbag
climber
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Yeah, that's my take too.
Our relations with Pakistan is a very difficult situation.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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FAUX NEWS HEADLINE:
DC Area African American Admits to Killing Middle Aged Man
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Wow, I know a guy with seal team six. I met him while camping in San Diego with his very beautiful wife. This is very interesting...
Sorry but I'm skeptical. First rule of Seal Team Six is you don't talk about Seal Team Six and all that. Apparently it's not even an official designation. I think maybe got got scammed by a rescue diver or someone.
LOL!
It is hard to imagine even the wife of a SEAL freely discussing what her husband does.
"Loose Lips Sink Ships" and all that...
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Yeah and I wonder it I'm the only one who is a little uncomfortable about the constant lionization of US special forces.
Seems like the adult version of my-dad-could-beat-up-your dad.
How about we celebrate Peace Corps volunteers or people who invent new and useful technology to lift people out of lives of grinding poverty instead of volunteer killers?
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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As a former Peace Corps volunteer (Gabon 85-87) let me say THANK YOU!!!
I've never heard anyone else suggest this and just this morning I was thinking of that.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Let's not forget that under the Bush Administration the DevGru boyz (Team 6) were referred to as "Cheney's Assassination Squad" by all the usual lefties.
My, how a different party designation changes things.
Whatever. As long as the job is getting done, I don't really give a crap.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
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interesting perspective from vdh:
"The world must now realize that the domestic antiwar movement is dead, kaput; it cares not a whit whether we assassinate bin Laden or a son of Qaddafi or go into Libya. Everything is on the table now and there are no self-restraints, no snickers on The Daily Show, no quirky insider winks on Letterman, no Barbara Streisand crazy faxes. A Nobel peace laureate is now the Left’s totem and he can send quite deadly Americans on quite deadly missions as he sees fit — and without worry about a New York Times op-ed barrage or an ACLU lawsuit. That gives the U.S. newfound advantages, a veritable blank check, from keeping Guantanamo open indefinitely to using a Cheney “assassination” team and valuable water-boarded intelligence wherever it wishes to. A Harold Koh is not going to be filing any more lawsuits against his government — he is the government."
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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It is hard to imagine even the wife of a SEAL freely discussing what her husband does.
Reminds me of "The Unit". If someone tells you that they are a logistics clerk then they might be a member of Seal Team Six.
Dave
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Yeah and I wonder it I'm the only one who is a little uncomfortable about the constant lionization of US special forces.
Seems like the adult version of my-dad-could-beat-up-your dad.
It's the male version of the Royal Wedding.
Practically speaking, the whole transformation of the Middle East via protests is a much more important phenomena. The world hasn't really known if Bin Laden were alive or dead for many years and it's doubtful he has had much affect on Al Queda from his hideout.
The fallout from this event could swing a number of ways that we don't control. Time will tell, but It's a good sign that peaceful but courageous protest is evidenced as a means to change in the MidEast which repudiates both Bin Laden's Methods and those of the US War machine.
Peace
karl
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dirtbag
climber
|
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The world hasn't really known if Bin Laden were alive or dead for many years and it's doubtful he has had much affect on Al Queda from his hideout.
Intelligence folks might get a better idea of that in the coming weeks after pouring over his hard drives.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
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Karl,
Yes, World Revolution by Wikileaks.
Who could have known that telling the truth and exposing the government lies would have such a profound effect on the whole World? (sarcasm)
Wow, look what telling the truth can do.
I'm all for Sunshine. It is the best disinfectant.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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"The world must now realize that the domestic antiwar movement is dead, kaput; it cares not a whit whether we assassinate bin Laden or a son of Qaddafi or go into Libya. Everything is on the table now and there are no self-restraints, no snickers on The Daily Show, no quirky insider winks on Letterman, no Barbara Streisand crazy faxes. A Nobel peace laureate is now the Left’s totem and he can send quite deadly Americans on quite deadly missions as he sees fit — and without worry about a New York Times op-ed barrage or an ACLU lawsuit. That gives the U.S. newfound advantages, a veritable blank check, from keeping Guantanamo open indefinitely to using a Cheney “assassination” team and valuable water-boarded intelligence wherever it wishes to. A Harold Koh is not going to be filing any more lawsuits against his government — he is the government."
This highlights the poor understanding that some people have of war protesters. They use too much black and white thinking. They think that we would never fight. But then they would be wrong, as evidenced by how many elected democrats have actually served during war time, versus elected republicans.
I'm a liberal who is against most wars, but I would have signed up for WW2.
Some war protesters would never fight, but I believe that most would, given the proper motivation.
Two wars that I would NOT have fought in come specifically to mind, Vietnam and Iraq. And I think it was a mistake to stay in Afghanistan. We should have gone in and blasted the taliban strong holds, and then left, because Russia proved that Afghanistan is a quagmire. We are bankrupting ourselves going into quagmires.
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jstan
climber
|
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How Bin Laden met his end
Targeting the Al Qaeda leader with a missile strike wasn't enough. President Obama needed proof he was dead — and a much bolder plan.
By Bob Drogin, Christi Parsons and Ken Dilanian, Los Angeles Times
May 3, 2011
Reporting from Washington— The nail-biting moment, the period when absolute disaster loomed, came at the very start.
About two dozen Navy SEALs and other U.S. commandos were supposed to rope down into a Pakistani residential compound from a pair of specially modified Black Hawk helicopters in the predawn hours Monday, race into two buildings, and capture or kill Osama bin Laden. One chopper stalled as it hovered between the compound's high walls, unable to sustain its lift, and thudded into the dirt.
Half a world away in the White House Situation Room, the president and his war council crowded around a table covered with briefing papers and keyboards and watched nervously as video feeds streamed in. The special forces team needed a rescue chopper. Gunfire was blazing around them. No one wanted another "Black Hawk Down" debacle.
"A lot of people were holding their breath," recalled John Brennan, the president's counter-terrorism advisor.
The extraordinary drama surrounding the killing of Bin Laden encompassed the White House, the CIA and other arms of America's vast national security apparatus. The tale is part detective story, part spy thriller. But the decade-old manhunt for the Al Qaeda leader ultimately came down to a three-story building on a dirt road in the Pakistani army town of Abbottabad, north of Islamabad.
If the raid went wrong, President Obama would bear the blame. He had vetoed a plan to obliterate the compound with an airstrike. Obama wanted to be certain he had Bin Laden, and there was no guarantee that a smoking crater would yield proof. He had asked for a bolder plan, one that would allow the U.S. to take custody of Bin Laden or his body. It posed far more risk………….
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-bin-laden-raid-20110503,0,7245803.story
END QUOTE
Other stories in the LA Times details that bin Laden was actively involved in his own defence. I think speculations here as to anyone’s courage by persons out of uniform with no personal knowledge – reflect very poorly upon us.
Yesterday I speculated(mentally) that capture alive had to have been an important objective. Referrence is made to this in the above link.
Yesterday I also speculated that DNA would be needed from two or three family members. See further from the link below.
http://www.the33tv.com/news/la-heb-osama-bin-laden-dna-testing-20110502,0,7457296.story
How we as a people react to this important event can speak very directly to our quality as a culture. Make no mistake.
We are being carefully observed.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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I guess Pakistan is upset that the mission invaded its air space.
Too bad!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The only question about Hanson is how much in federal and state subsidies does he reel in for his "farm" - other than that he's just another shuck 'n jive neocon trying to rationalize just why it is the neocon strategy to restore US superpower dominance went off the rails so badly.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
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If we had to pay for wars in real time with increased taxes, there would be a whole new crowd of war protesters on the streets and golf links!
Peace
Karl
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
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What happened to Bin Laden's money? Wasn't he worth like a billion at one point? Did he spend it all? Are there any billionaire radical muslims wanting to jump into his shoes? With out the money I don't think he could have done any of the things he did.
Will anyone with the resourses see it as a good investment to bankroll them?
If not I say we won and it time to bring some people home.
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dirtbag
climber
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If we had to pay for wars in real time with increased taxes, there would be a whole new crowd of war protesters on the streets and golf links!
Peace
Karl
You mean, you didn't think Bush tax cuts were the way to go? ;-)
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Great, our SEALS shot an unarmed man.
I don't care.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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fattrad is just another neocon flip-flopper.
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monolith
climber
|
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Knowing he was unarmed after the fact doesn't tell the whole story. Did the SEALS know he was unarmed when confronted? Did they know he was Bin Laden from a distance? Were there other threats nearby?
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Gene
climber
|
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Let's see if I got this right...
Cragman steps away from Supertopo for a spell.
Osama bin Laden gets whacked.
Coincidence?
Hmmmm..
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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Great, our SEALS shot an unarmed man. Nice mission but I am going to have to second guess them.
you shoot your mouth off at us all day long, and comparatively speaking, we are totally unarmed against your baseless, spineless idiotic blather....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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Great, our SEALS shot an unarmed man.
I don't give a f*#k! (If true...)
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Gene
climber
|
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I doubt that OBL was properly Mirandized.
EDIT for benefit of following post: Sarcasm? K? Responding to the "He was unarmed" comments.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
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they should have kept him alive and thrown him overboard with lead weights from the aircraft carrier. the obama waterboard treatment.
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jstan
climber
|
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"I was not aware the Barack was on TV regards this Bin Laden episode.
For those who watched, what did Barack have to say about 9/11 with
this episode?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIBEPZSpWc&feature=related
John Moosie provided a link to yahoo I watched that night.
I watched the one shown above and no change was apparent to me.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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I think that they are relaying the story that Osama was unarmed when he was shot for propaganda reasons (true or not). If Osama is seen to have gone down as a warrior, AK-47 in hand and fighting America's most elite commandos, then others will want to replicate his glorified martyrdom. The story of his wife throwing herself in front of gunfire to save an unarmed man who was clearly not fighting to protect himself after a 40 minute gun battle is not heroic to a masculine culture. While it may look bad for us to have killed an unarmed man to western cultures, many others will simply see it as a weak man going down in a way unbecoming a warrior. That, I think, is the point of perpetuating this story.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Further more OBL said . . .
"Well, Ok, yes I did know that the DoD, and all the Armed Forces of the USA were gonna play war games, playing and acting out the very scenerio we pulled off on them on 9-11-01, which was crashing airliners into buildings.
Hey, I'm CIA aren't I? I'm in the loop. They keep me informed. I'm on a need to know basis. Brilliant huh?
Further more, I asked the DoD and US Armed Forces to lock down and ignore all protocal for hi-jacked airliners flying into restricted airspace and they did. Man, I still got it. I am the man. And to think I did this all from a cave in Afghanistan, and my men were only using boxcutter knives. Absolutely brilliant and to top it off under budget!"
There will never in the world be another brilliant war strategist such as OBL. The War Colleges should study his strategic brilliance the world over. (sarcasm)
Simply amazing.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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It might be worth noting that OBL did not achieve his primary objective, which was to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia. Although I bet he was mighty surprised when his estranged Daddy's friend managed to get Saddam and have him swing.
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monolith
climber
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You are ignorant Klimmer. You don't even know that knives with 3-inch blades were allowed on board. And that cave thing is ridiculous.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oh, so now they were using 3 inch knives? And OBL was calling in all the moves, and staying abreast of the mission from Rumsfeld's office in the Pentagon?
lol
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monolith
climber
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Yes Klimmer. Knives, box cutters, mace and fake bombs. Educate yourself Klimmer.
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jstan
climber
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What is coming through is that there is absolutely nothing a non-republican president can do to satisfy certain people.
Americans are copying the cultures of the middle east. Even just reading some of the posts in this thread makes it apparent we soon will have Americans advocating stoning as a method of capital punishment. In a mere ten years we are already at the point of putting heads on pikes.
Not that far to go.
Emergency legislation suspending the US Constitution, as was done in countries of the middle east, has been a dream for some.
This is where the insanity is leading us.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's really somewhat amazing the degree that the Internet has enabled the resurgence of deliberate ignorance, flat-earthers, and an endless array of cults of misguided belief. Then again, why should it be any different than TV as far as pandering to the lowest common denominator? Who knew reality and facts could so easily be drowned in imagination and lunacy?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It might be worth noting that OBL did not achieve his primary objective, which was to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia. Although I bet he was mighty surprised when his estranged Daddy's friend managed to get Saddam and have him swing.
actually in a surprising capitulation, Bush made significant troop changes in Saudi Arabia after 9-11
"Prior to 9/11, military deployment strength in SA was typically at or above the 10.000 range, not including contractors (and, depending on periodic exercises conducted, probably peaked at around 17,000). By Oct., 2002, that number had dropped to about 6,000. By the time the invasion of Iraq had started, the UN resolution was in place, so the U.S. had permission from the Saudis to continue some operations out of Prince Sultan, but, those were limited and destined to be short-lived, since the intention--since the winter of 2001-2--was to take Iraq and use that country as a primary Middle Eastern base. By Apr., 2003, in the first days of the invasion, the number of military personnel in SA was down to 5,000. As I said, US military presence in Saudi Arabia was reduced, beginning after Sept., 2001.
The U.S. military did not, as you suggest, begin to reduce deployment in SA only after Apr., 2003. It began in piecemeal fashion almost immediately after the 9/11 attacks, and continued through to the invasion of Iraq. ..."
in April 2003 even more significant numbers were removed from SA
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm
"The United States has said that virtually all its troops, except some training personnel, are to be pulled out of Saudi Arabia.
The decision was confirmed by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld during a joint news conference with Saudi Defence Minister Prince Sultan......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Great, our SEALS shot an unarmed man. Nice mission but I am going to have to second guess them.
Kind of a shame that they gave an old sick guy in instant, probably painless death in battle just the way he always said he wanted it. The military said they shot him twice in the head, the second time to make sure he was dead. That was compassionate of them but why?
That's not suffering. If you really want to punish Bin Laden you make him sit in your jail and courtroom, that's the real belittling humiliation.
But they must have been nervous about that. Bin Laden would probably talk about the origins of AL Queda with the CIA fighting soviets in Afghanistan, an uncomfortable fact we don't like. Easier to kill him, and now there will certainly be a conspiracy theory that he was already dead years before.
Time will tell.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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What is coming through is that there is absolutely nothing a non-republican president can do to satisfy certain people.
Americans are copying the cultures of the middle east. Even just reading some of the posts in this thread makes it apparent we soon will have Americans advocating stoning as a method of capital punishment. In a mere ten years we are already at the point of putting heads on pikes.
Not that far to go.
Emergency legislation suspending the US Constitution, as was done in countries of the middle east, has been a dream for some.
This is where the insanity is leading us.
What exactly are you saying, John? Be more concise and to-the-point.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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karl wants everyone to sing kumbiyah! hold hands and skip around the playground together.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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What is coming through is that there is absolutely nothing a non-republican president can do to satisfy certain people.
Americans are copying the cultures of the middle east. Even just reading some of the posts in this thread makes it apparent we soon will have Americans advocating stoning as a method of capital punishment. In a mere ten years we are already at the point of putting heads on pikes.
Not that far to go.
Emergency legislation suspending the US Constitution, as was done in countries of the middle east, has been a dream for some.
This is where the insanity is leading us. What exactly are you saying, John? Be more concise and to-the-point.
I can't imagine John being more concise and to-the-point then he already was. Best post today!
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dirtbag
climber
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Karl,
You sound like a terrorist to me, your beef with the US is hand in hand, almost word for word with Bin Laden.
1.Do you approve of suicide bombings of innocents?
2.Do you feel that suicide bombings are justified because of US collateral damages in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes or no, Karl.
I hope you're not being serious.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I already answered you "No" to your original question further back in the thread Coz.
I don't approve of suicide bombings against civilians under any circumstances.
I do, however, understand them. It's nobody's first choice of a response so it's important to take note when a group becomes that desperate.
and I also don't approve of illegal unjustified wars based on Lies. It's one sided and hypocritical to only consider the offenses of others and not question the behavior of yourself and allies.
People (Bush, Cheney, Etc) should be in Prison over the Iraq war. They knew there were no WMDs and lied to go in for power, oil and Israel. Isn't killing hundreds of thousands that never attacked you also a crime?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I sure wish they would release that helmet cam video. It would be nice, for once, to have some confirmation that a military operation is what it said it was
(after the repeated lies about so many operations in the past number of years...Jessica Lynch, Pat Tilman, Saddam's statue, and numerous Iraq and Afghan civilian killing incidents)
Peace
Karl
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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One must be patience for the final debriefing on the raid: "fog of combat”.
Still will be couple of days out. Wednesday/Thursday maybe or by the end of the week US[Washington]should be close with all the right answers.
Watching this for the last couple of days: Fun to see how things get out of hand at first [normal]. But will wait it out.
Couple of missed and understand out of control answers, goes with the territory, Was it a blue or white shroud he was buried out to sea? Was it the wife or another's [courior].
How many days/weeks/months did it take when the Towers came down before conspiracies’and nut jobs came out of the woods. Who's on first?
But they have brought up prior read to the raid that is of interest, agents or spotters smuggled or trekked in watching the compound, which would make sense [spotting tunnels and of the such around/outside on connected compounds] on Bin Ladens compound, where did they go after the mission, fade into the abyss or chopped out?
Will have to wait for answers and wait and wait for the 50 books on the adventure, then TV, then the movie? You think the "Three Tea" book is slanted.
Then again giving strategic or defensive moves to carry on the next mission which I agree need to be not answered.
Need to let the storm pass to see the light. Then again maybe half the light.
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marv
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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youTube would get, like, a gazillion hits if the bin Laden headshot were uploaded
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onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
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Will have to wait for answers and wait and wait for the 50 books on the adventure, then TV, then the movie? You think the "Three Tea" book is slanted.
FINALLY a Greg Mortenson reference!
Can we get back to bagging on him please?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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What is coming through is that there is absolutely nothing a non-republican president can do to satisfy certain people.
What does that mean, exactly? Be specific! I saluted Obama with other conservatives, WTF???
Americans are copying the cultures of the middle east. Even just reading some of the posts in this thread makes it apparent we soon will have Americans advocating stoning as a method of capital punishment. In a mere ten years we are already at the point of putting heads on pikes.
What?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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He wasn't talking about you personally, Blue.
Your own comment was duly noted as it was honest, thank you.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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How long until "bin Laden: The Movie" or "Date with Destiny: Abbottabad" come out? Is there enough for a mini-series?
There is probably a large quantity of video footage and still photos from the scene, and of course lots of other evidence. Before they release any of it, they'll carefully examine it for other useful information, and consider what effect it will have on US and world opinion. The US government may not benefit from some or all of it being published, and can probably declare all of it top-secret.
Only five or six people seem to have died altogether - peanuts in terms of the typical fantasy/action movie. The US government nonetheless may not have much to gain by publicizing the footage.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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wow karl,
you really ought to move to a country like Russia, or better yet Afghanistan so you rally have something to bitch about.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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wow karl,
you really ought to move to a country like Russia, or better yet Afghanistan so you rally have something to bitch about.
I was thinking along those lines too, but Karl is a true peacenik. I respect him for his consistent stance, but he's just wrong.
He doesn't realize they'd saw his head off too, despite his preachings. They are evil, Karl. No many humans could treat another human brother that way.
It's disgusting, really. I have NO sympathy for them. They will rot in hell with their fellow demons. I have no doubt.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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"It's disgusting, really. I have NO sympathy for them. They will rot in hell with their fellow demons. I have no doubt."
And that is EXACTLY the sentiment that propagates the continued bullshit on BOTH sides.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I was thinking along those lines too, but Karl is a true peacenik. I respect him for his consistent stance, but he's just wrong.
And I was thinking how wrong you and Hawkeye are to tell someone they should move because they complain about the lies our government has told. Our government has told lies, but you guys seem to be so wrapped up in protecting it that you are willing to ignore this. In America we can hold our government to a higher level. Its countries like you suggest that don't allow their citizens to question it, so maybe it is YOU who should move, since you seem to think it is proper behavior for a citizen to just shut up.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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And that is EXACTLY the sentiment that propagates the continued bullshit on BOTH sides.
You obviously don't understand moderate Islam. Or moderate Christianity.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I'm sure this will inflame the debate but it really isn't meant to . . .
I will not glorify death or the killing of another human being. I will not post pictures of OBL shot or his body desecrated. I wouldn't do that with anyone good or bad. The human body is a temple of GOD and should be treated as such. The human soul is eternal no matter if they are on the right side of GOD or on the wrong side of GOD, whether they are evil or good it doesn't matter. The soul deserves respect, and the physical body on Earth the soul once occupied deserves respect. It always deserves respect no matter who they are.
The gentleman who does "Ark Code" is an Orthodox Jew and I see eye-to-eye with him on many things, but some things I do not. I wish he didn't include the graphic images of OBL with his code work. I took the liberty of editing out those images.
(*Warning: graphic images of OBL shot dead that I won't post)
http://www.arkcode.com/custom3_140.html
BIN LADEN DEAD IN 5771 (2011)
Edit:
Well, I was gonna discuss it more and then boom most of the original post vanished with images and all. For crying out loud.
Oooooooooppppssseeeeeee. I was editing and the post mostly disappeared . . . man I hate that.
Technical difficulties . . .
I'll get back to discussing this eventually. Sorry.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I can't wait that long.
Please, right now.
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jstan
climber
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"You have to realize that I was/am in favor of the way this mission was carried out and it's results. I'm just enjoying trolling the libs as these ethical issues come up. They really don't how to deal with hypocrisy."
Jeff
I really can't resist.
Jeff:
Liberals can't deal with hypocrisy as well as republicans can. Because..........
we have not had any practice at it.
OK. That feels better.
I'm back to normal now.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hawkeye and Bluering wrote
wow karl,
you really ought to move to a country like Russia, or better yet Afghanistan so you rally have something to bitch about.
I was thinking along those lines too, but Karl is a true peacenik. I respect him for his consistent stance, but he's just wrong.
He doesn't realize they'd saw his head off too, despite his preachings. They are evil, Karl. No many humans could treat another human brother that way.
It's disgusting, really. I have NO sympathy for them. They will rot in hell with their fellow demons. I have no doubt.
Remember I was talking about the Iraq war now. Don't forget, Saddam didn't not attack us, wasn't about to attack us, and was the worst enemy of Islamic fundamentalists.
So is it somehow unamerican to question creating a couple million refugees, and over 100,000 dead in a country we had no legitimate beef with? Japan, Germany and Italy are great countries these days (relatively you must admit) but at one point they violently tried to force their empire on the world and did evil things. Aren't you, by not questioning your government's actions, lining yourself up with those Japanese, or German Citizens who went along with their government's violence and aggression. Even we had a revolution in the beginning of this country. I can hear you now if there was an internet then "Why do you hate your country England???!!!" and it wasn't like the England ruled with that heavy a hand and all the residents here considered themselves English in the beginning.
A patriot needs to be vocal to keep his country in truth as corrupt powers will always arise if not checked by the people.
So Bluering, these people in Iraq you call evil. Who are they exactly and how do we know them from the Good Iraqis? or are there none, and if so, why invade to allegedly help them (pump their oil or make sure it's sold in dollars) Even Bin Laden hated Saddam and wanted him gone. We did him a trillion dollar favor.
You all want to feel good about yourselves by feeling good about your country but it's not that easy. We're all mixed bags. By doing so we lie to ourselves. I will take pride in my criticism of both Bush and Obama, even if they were personable in their own way (at least on the surface with Bush)
You fall victim to the same trap that creates the extremists in the first place. They see the Palestinians oppressed by Israeli occupation or someone in their family killed in an US air strike, or suffer under a US supported King or Dictator and figure we're all evil and must be defeated. Do you blame them? Wouldn't you feel the same. Can't you stand in anyone elses shoes for a minute or do you need to be in bigoted self-congratulation mode since we killed another bogeyman that we used to pay to do the killing for us?
It's not a black and white world and it takes courage and honesty to see our strengths and our flaws
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Hey Stannard, I was hoping you'd address my questions on the previous page.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I've been disappointed by Obama many times in the past few years but as a person he seems super cool.
I didn't hate Bush the guy but did hate Bush the President so I sympathize for those staring down more years of Obama. The chances of electing one of the GOP clowns is about Zero now, since all the charismatic ones are obvious nutjobs and any halfway serious one is boring and has fatal flaws
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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They failed again to "kill" the "Bin "Laden".
He's still alive and running around in everyone's head .......
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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George Bush's war on terror...49,000 Americans dead or injured, countless innocent Iraqis dead and four trillion dollars spent!!!
Dumb-ass!!!
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jstan
climber
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If the intention of that war on terror was
to spend trillions of taxpayer dollars
it was an unqualified success.
Got to look on the positive side.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John Kerry...2004...way ahead of the curve and the Bush neocons!!
"Kerry told me he would stop terrorists by going after them ruthlessly with the military, and he faulted Bush, as he often does, for choosing to use Afghan militias, instead of American troops, to pursue Osama bin Laden into the mountains of Tora Bora, where he disappeared. ''I'm certainly, you know, not going to take second seat to anybody, to nobody, in my willingness to seek justice and set America on a course -- to make America safe,'' Kerry told me. ''And that requires destroying terrorists. And I'm committed to doing that. But I think I have a better way of doing it. I can do it more effectively.''
This was a word that Kerry came back to repeatedly in our discussions; he told me he would wage a more ''effective'' war on terror no less than 18 times in two hours of conversations. The question, of course, was how.
''I think we can do a better job,'' Kerry said, ''of cutting off financing, of exposing groups, of working cooperatively across the globe, of improving our intelligence capabilities nationally and internationally, of training our military and deploying them differently, of specializing in special forces and special ops, of working with allies, and most importantly -- and I mean most importantly -- of restoring America's reputation as a country that listens, is sensitive, brings people to our side, is the seeker of peace, not war, and that uses our high moral ground and high-level values to augment us in the war on terror, not to diminish us.''
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?pagewanted=all
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Was there a real person named "Smedley" Butler? From the 1930s, yet?
Otherwise, once bin Laden was located, Obama had little choice but to do what he did. Negotiating with the Pakistanis would have been a fool's errand. No way to get at him but from the air, with highly trained military. They gathered all the intelligence they could, and planned accordingly. There was probably never much chance of taking him alive.
As the Allies successfully tried the Nazi leaders after the war, and the Israelis prosecuted Adolf Eichmann in 1961, a public trial would not have been a big problem. The biggest difference would have been that an international court would have jailed bin Laden for life, and a US court would execute him.
(The Israeli judge who presided over the Eichmann trial died yesterday - he was 99.)
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jstan
climber
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Click on Klimmer's link. Get a bunch of links searching just on the name.
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shut up and pull
climber
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JUST IMAGINE IF WE HAD LISTENED TO THE IDIOT LIBERALS BACK THEN?
HEADLINE TODAY:
Harsh interrogation led to bin Laden...
OFFICIALS: Finding bin Laden aided by info from Gitmo detainees...
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shut up and pull
climber
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OF COURSE. A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER COMMIE SCUMBAG WOULDNT KNOW WHAT TO DO.
Obama took 16 hours to make up mind about Bin Laden mission...
'Slept on it'...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I will say we probably do need to get democratic presidents better helicopter maintenance and flight training prior to clandestine raids.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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SUAP wrote: HEADLINE TODAY:
Harsh interrogation led to bin Laden...
OFFICIALS: Finding bin Laden aided by info from Gitmo detainees...
What a as#@&%e...
SUAP wrote: Obama took 16 hours to make up mind about Bin Laden mission...
'Slept on it'...
Took Bush eight years and still no results.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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It’s almost painful to have to listen to the cheap carnival calls from the right as they try to discredit Obama for what has emerged as the most successful counterterrorism operation in U.S. history. No surprise.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Brilliant and eloquent Karl, but in the echo chamber you're wasting your time.
Hatas gonna hate!
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jstan
climber
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"Obama took 16 hours to make up mind about Bin Laden mission...
'Slept on it'..."
The implication being that SUAP would have just pulled the trigger, like W did.
Read some of the LA Times articles to which I posted links. Obama was given three scenarios including a bombing and a special ops. He chose the higher risk option so bin Laden might be physically recovered and doubts would have a chance to be extinguished. An overarching concern that had to be weighed was how the alliance with Pakistan might be affected.
I think if you also go to the link I posted on Obama's mother's biography you can see the personal characteristics he has that allowed him to predict and also allow for the conservative reactions he could expect for both cases. Success and also failure.
Taking executive action without thinking these things out beforehand will sooner or later, make you appear a fool. Surely you can see that? Just look to past events. Examples are there.
Once a person has done or said something foolish, recovery is next to impossible.
No one will take you seriously.
You slowly but surely become invisible.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Anders wrote
There was probably never much chance of taking him alive.
Why? Our government reported that NO ONE offered armed resistance during the operation?
They say they shot Bin Laden when he made an unarmed threatening move, but heck, they're Navy Seals in Body Armor and automatic weapons and he's an old sick guy. Sure, it's not a slam dunk and a very dangerous operation but there was certainly a chance to get him alive.
This article details why the US wasn't able to marshal forces to capture Bin Laden at Tora Bora and also outlines the details of the repeated Taliban offers to hand over Bin Laden for trial to a moderate Islamic country or federation of moderate islamic countries.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/05/03-6
"...The last Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, offered at a secret meeting in Islamabad Oct. 15, 2001 to put bin Laden in the custody of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), to be tried for the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States, Muttawakil told IPS in an interview in Kabul last year.
The OIC is a moderate, Saudi-based organisation representing all Islamic countries. A trial of bin Laden by judges from OIC member countries might have dealt a more serious blow to al Qaeda's Islamic credentials than anything the United States would have done with bin Laden.
Muttawakil also dropped a condition that the United States provide evidence of bin Laden's guilt in the 9/11 attacks, which had been raised in late September and reiterated by Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan Abdul Salam Zaeef on Oct. 5 - two days before the U.S. bombing of Taliban targets began.....
....The absence of any military planning to catch bin Laden was a function of Bush's national security team, led by Vice-President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, which had firmly opposed any military operation in Afghanistan that would have had any possibility of catching bin Laden and his lieutenants.
Rumsfeld and the second-ranking official at the Pentagon, Paul Wolfowitz, had dismissed CIA warnings of an al Qaeda terrorist attack against the United States in the summer of 2001, and even after 9/11 had continued to question the CIA's conclusion that bin Laden and al Qaeda were behind the attacks.
Cheney and Rumsfeld were determined not to allow a focus on bin Laden to interfere with their plan for a U.S. invasion of Iraq to overthrow the Saddam Hussein regime.
Even after Bush decided in favour of an Afghan campaign, CENTCOM commander Tommy Franks, who was responsible for the war in Afghanistan, was not directed to have a plan for bin Laden’s capture or to block his escape to Pakistan.
When the CIA received intelligence on Nov. 12, 2001 that bin Laden had left Kandahar and was headed for a cave complex in the Tora Bora Mountains close to the Pakistani border, Franks had no assets in place to do anything about it. He asked Lt. Gen. Paul T. Mikolashek, commander of Army Central Command (ARCENT), if he could provide a blocking force between al Qaeda and the Pakistani border, according to Col. David W. Lamm, who was then commander of ARCENT Kuwait.
But that was impossible, because ARCENT had neither the troops nor the strategic lift in Kuwait required to put such a force in place.
Franks then had to ask for Pakistani military help in blocking bin Laden's exit into Pakistan, as Rumsfeld told a National Security Council meeting, according to the meeting transcript in Bob Woodward's book "Bush at War".
But Rumsfeld and other key advisers knew it would a charade, because bin Laden was a long-time ally of the Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, and the Pakistani military was not about to help capture him...."
and the conservative want to be sure Bush gets proper credit for getting Bin Laden? No way
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
I get the impression the safest place for bin Laden was Dallas?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Karl, bin Laden may have been sick - the jury's still out on that one - but he was only 53. Not old.
It will be interesting to learn more about what happened, and the timeline. They probably had very little time to move in, capture or kill bin Laden, and get out. Which meant that if a demand to surrender wasn't complied with immediately, it was game over. It's not Marquess of Queensbury rules.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Karl,
Nice, thoughtful post 2 pages back. That echos my feeling pretty well, although I don't necessarily agree on other details with you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I get the impression the safest place for bin Laden was Dallas?
Had he simply shaved, donned a thong, and added a little suntan lotion and bling he could have lived to ripe old age on the Spanish Riviera with no one the wiser.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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There's no way we can agree much on details, even with those we generally agree with.
There's so many lies and obfuscation in modern politics, that we don't know WTF really happens for real. By the time the truth comes out, everyone has moved on and the culprits are back to making million dollar bonuses or on the board of fat corporations.
We virtually wrecked the economy by DOUBLING defense spending since 9-11. Part of that was the illegal Iraq war which research increasingly shows was based on known lies. Nobody went to jail, There was no investigation.
Then the financial institutions virtually wrecked the economy worse with the housing, CDO security scam, which research now shows was much less accidental than claimed, and the government bailed those guys out, lowered their taxes, and now they are getting rich again as the economy continues to suck. Nobody went to jail,
And then the GOP wants to blame Medicare for the bad economy and take it out on seniors and the poor while retained what was advertised as temporary tax cuts.
but hey, we got Osama, so why rain on the parade? The outside bogyman is valuable to destract for the Osodomizing we get from our masters within the country.
Who's the next bogyman? Gaddafi?
Peace
karl
article regarding untrue initial statments about the operation. You wonder how they could put out the wrong info when they watched the operation on helmet cam and had time to have OB Laden's DNA tested.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/03/bin.laden.evolving.story/index.html?hpt=C2
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Karl, a lot of what you (and others) are saying may be right, and certainly bears considering. The US got into a big mess from 2001 - 2009, and indeed from 1981 - 2009, and killing bin Laden doesn't necessarily help much to resolve it. But it was necessary, and maybe now - unlike in 2001 - there can be space for reflection and thought.
The administration seems to be addressing this professionally, without vainglory or false claims so far. That's promising.
As for the photo - well, is it real or is it photoshopped? And where did it come from? (Edit: The photo that has now disappeared.)
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Spot on Karl.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Why? Our government reported that NO ONE offered armed resistance during the operation?
Hey Karl, I'm not certain where you heard this, but the US press secretary said today that the seals were engaged in a firefight throughout the house.
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apogee
climber
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"...is it real or is it photoshopped? And where did it come from? "
Oh, cripes....here we go.
Who the feck cares about the images of OBL, besides maybe the bloodthirsty 'Christian' chickenhawks?
He's dead. Most everyone's happy about that. Time to move onto the high road.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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He was killed by modern day killers. They could care less about the politics. They were born to kill; if it wasn't OBL it would have been someone else. That killer gene was almost culled out of the gene pool during WW2. Both sides lost true gladiators in Europe during that period. All of those great warriors never had the chance to breed. F*#k the cause just war on. Let the puppets who think they run the show know that it will be their day soon enough.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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From the Huffington Post:
The helicopter-borne raiding squad that swarmed the luxury compound identified bin Laden by appearance. A woman in the compound who was identified as his wife was said to have called out bin Laden's name in the melee.
Officials produced a quick DNA match from his remains that they said established bin Laden's identity, even absent the other techniques, with 99.9 percent certainty.
Maybe this belongs in the science/god thread …
99.9% probability means that one out of a thousand times, you’ll have a false positive – you’ll get a positive result from the test for a non-Osama bin Laden.
The only way we can use the DNA evidence, and the 99.9% probability that it gives us, is in conjunction with a prior probability. What’s the prior probability that this was Osama bin Laden, as the official and Huffington Post say, “in the absence of the other techniques”?
Well, for the DNA to match, he must have been a human. If you tested all of the 7 billion humans on the earth, you would expect to get 7 million false positives (1 out of every 1000 non-Osama bin Laden humans) and one true positive (Osama bin Laden). So, given the result of the DNA test, “in the absence of the other techniques”, our new expectation, after the test, would be that there was a 1 in 7 million chance that this was Osama bin Laden. Not very convincing odds?
What’s the prior probability that it was Osama bin Laden, before they did the DNA test? We just make it up, using whatever incomplete information we have - incomplete information like what’s the probability that the government’s information was good (like their information on Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction), and what’s the probability that the government is telling the truth. Then we convince ourselves that we know what we’re talking about because we can’t see all of the hidden information that might show us that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
But hey, I’m a human, I believe it was bin Laden, I believe whatever my personally incomplete information (including media and government misrepresenting real information, personal biases, misinformation, faulty reasoning, etc.) tells me to believe.
Sometimes I think that we’re such survivor bias illogic geniuses, it’s surprising that we can fight our way out of a paper bag. But in our defense, I guess it’s the only game in town.
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jstan
climber
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There is probably no point in publishing a picture of Bin Laden. There would be if the right wing would accept something. But it is clear nothing is going to be accepted. So forget it.
Publishing the picture is rather like parading a corpse. Does not say much for us. It would be a negative.
Without a doubt we are going to supply allied governments with information. If there is a leak from one of those governments, so be it. The US can't stop that.
As has been speculated in the media special ops may be a mode of operation we will be using to replace invasions of countries. The best approach would be to do it in alliance with other countries. Particularly if protocols to resolve security problems can be found.
I also would not be surprised by high priority being given a new project to develop special helicopters for this purpose. Carter's choppers died because dust was drawn into the engines. The crews did not get out and put dust screens over the intakes while the choppers were waiting for the go ahead. In Bev Johnson's case I read it was a problem of water/snow getting into the intake. Should be solvable.
Each successive use will, however, meet increasing resistance and suffer more loss. Even as we bicker, forces protecting high value individuals have surely been redoubled.
If this all does happen there will be a major need for better in-country intelligence. The outing of Valerie Plame for political benefit will make recruiting onerous. Who would want to take such a risk?
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apogee
climber
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"but he's dead and i don't think we should make a spectacle of his body...that's not what we do...i have no objection to his ritual burial; we pay the same respect to executed murderers"
+1 bookworm
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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They were born to kill
I fundamentally disagree with that statement. In my view, killers are a product of a culture. They are trained to kill. Only a select few are truly "Born to kill." And even then, there are often environmental causes of their dysfunction.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Moosie wrote
Hey Karl, I'm not certain where you heard this, but the US press secretary said today that the seals were engaged in a firefight throughout the house.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/03/bin.laden.dead/index.html?hpt=T1
Posted May 3rd at 10pm on Cnn
"Osama bin Laden was not armed but did put up resistance when U.S. forces stormed a compound outside Islamabad and killed him, White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday.....
...There were no armed guards around the compound, said a U.S. official who asked not to be identified because the official was not authorized to speak on the record....
One group went to a separate building in the compound; the other to the three-story building housing a family on the first floor and bin Laden and his family on the second and third floors, Carney said.
On the first floor of bin Laden's building, two al Qaeda couriers were killed, as was a woman who was caught in the crossfire, Carney said.
Continuing their ascent to the second and third floors, the commandos found bin Laden and his wife, both of whom were unarmed, in a room, Carney said. "She rushed one of the U.S. assaulters and was shot in the leg but not killed," he said. "Bin Laden was then shot and killed."
The U.S. official said bin Laden was shot when he made a threatening move.
In all, said the U.S. official who sought anonymity, five of the approximately two dozen people in the compound were killed -- the two couriers, the woman, bin Laden and his son...."
So, perhaps it's a little unclear. The story keeps changing but the current story has no-one firing at the seals unless you assume something
Edit: I see a report in the Financial Times with much of the above information that still claims where was a firefight in the house. Guess the details are still foggy as the link in my higher post points out. They must know what happened, they just haven't quite figured out how much truth to tell and what to make up.
Peace
Karl
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Missing photo ID#200571 Aprapos - like the royal wedding, and all that (short shelf-life) good riddance.
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
If you imagine a sizable group of armed personnel breaking a door down and rapidly going through all of the rooms there will be shots fired. A lot of noise and chaos. Particularly if no detailed floor plan was available. They had to get to all of the rooms before their target could withdraw to a hiding place thereby extending the time the force needed to stay in the building. Without a doubt they were under orders to get out in less than some set number of minutes. The experience in Somalia had to have been a factor in the planning. Where there was resistance it would have been dealt with immediately.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm actually amazed at all they did during 40 minutes on the ground (if it's true)
They had to blow their way through the wall, go through the whole compound, killing 5 and dealing with more than a dozen more people, collect 5 computers, 10 hard drives and 100 storage devices, and detonate their broken helocopter on the way out, while carrying Bin Laden's 6 foot 4 inch body. Busy!
Peace
karl
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Sad…while Bin Ladens’s death gets politicized and the Navy Seals and the President receive credits and commendations…our much maligned CIA isn’t getting much in praise or respect. Before the politicians and warriors could sever the head …the snake had to be found, positively identified and served as a target. That would seem a formidable and arduous undertaking.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...our much maligned CIA isn’t getting much in praise or respect...
Well, it's taken them awhile to recover from the gross politicization and scapegoating of the agency by the Bush administration - there was a heavy loss of mid- and senior-level career personnel and a big influx of flunkies.
It will likely take another decade to recover from the combination of that abuse and the misguided decisions taken earlier to move the agency away from developing traditional HUMINT resources to focus heavily on COMINT / ELINT instead, as by 2000 we had very, very few HUMINT resources versed in Mideast languages and culture in either our foreign or domestic agencies. Hell, we couldn't even read, analyze, and interpret more than a fraction of the intel traffic we did collect. It'll take years to restore the capability.
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monolith
climber
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So, perhaps it's a little unclear. The story keeps changing but the current story has no-one firing at the seals unless you assume something
Are you kidding Karl?
U.S. military personnel arrived on two helicopters, attacked the residence and started moving methodically from room to room, said White House Press Secretary Jay Carney.
They were engaged in a firefight throughout the operation, he said.
It's not a stretch to assume "engaged in a firefight" means you are firing and being fired on.
They had to blow their way through the wall, go through the whole compound, killing 5 and dealing with more than a dozen more people, collect 5 computers, 10 hard drives and 100 storage devices, and detonate their broken helocopter on the way out, while carrying Bin Laden's 6 foot 4 inch body. Busy!
I think 24 of the highest trained and motivated people on the planet can do that in 40 minutes. Funny how you highlight his height but don't mention his weight. He was skinny Karl. You crack me up.
If this story was made up, as you hint, why would we say we killed an unarmed man? The Truther mindset is fascinating.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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What is done is done, and for those of us regular folks who have NO ability to affect scenarios to armchair quarterback is really an exercise in futility.
The fight for global supremacy, or even to hold on to whatever position a unit holds, or to recoup a drop in the hierarchy is far - far - beyond the capacity of any one of us Supertopians. Even Fattrad....
Governments do things which we cannot understand, for reasons we cannot comprehend.
Go one with the discussion, but if all those who do could concsiously make ONE effort today to positively affect another human being they come into physical contact with(hell, through in an overdue phone call or even sending an e-card), that will do more in affecting the way our world moves forward that much of the stuff being written in this thread.
“Be the change you want to see in the world.” - Mahatma Gandhi
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz writes
"Karl,
So, you understand suicide bombings, you're upset Osama wasn't taken alive.
Interesting!
Understanding is not condoning. and I'm not upset that Bin Laden wasn't taken alive. Just pointing out that it was doable (unarmed and the rest of the compound was cleared) and that the guy got a fast painless violent death, just the way he wanted. Folks seem to think capturing him alive would have been being nice to him. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Your spewings are base in little or no fact, you only imagine all we hear is lies.
I have cited MSM and other writings and previously acknowledged facts to back up everything I wrote. I can cite sources that we were deceived by the military regarding the incidents with Jessica Lynch, the falling of Saddam's statue, Pat Tilman's death, Iraqs WMDs, and other civiilian death incident in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As for Bin Laden, they've already had to correct bogus information that they originally reported. Like Bush used to do, the original information contained propaganda (Bin Laden used a woman as a shield and was armed) while the truth was different (the seal shot Bin Laden and a woman, both unarmed) People hang on to the first lie and don't notice the correct information later.
I am sorry but you siding and defending
a man like Bin Laden really rubs me the wrong way.
I have done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out how we've used him as a bogeyman and how we have ignored our own crimes, but that does nothing to excuse Bin Laden. This is all your projection.
I wonder why you choose to live in a country, that gives you so much freedom to live your lifestyle, and loath it so much.
Did you read my several paragraph's long response to you a few posts back. Screw yourself as#@&%e! I'm tired of you questioning my patriotism or suggesting I don't love this country. It take courage to speak out to keep the fine country from going down the tubes due to corruption and lies.
I was almost killed in 9/11, I'm glad the sh#t bag is dead.
I had a close friend killed on 9/11 too. That's why I'm concerned when it's used for Bullsh#t. Perhaps you didn't read one of the last links I posted that showed how Bush dropped two opportunities to get Bin Laden in the beginning and also at Tora Bora, Partly as a consequence of going after Iraq when they had nothing to do with it.
I respect and love my country, even though we blunder at times
Me too. Do you remember when Bin Laden stated his strategy for defeating the US? He said
"We, alongside the mujahedeen, bled Russia for 10 years until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat," bin Laden said.
He also said al Qaeda has found it "easy for us to provoke and bait this administration."
"All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al Qaeda, in order to make generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note other than some benefits for their private corporations," bin Laden said.
I've been trying to defeat Bin Laden's strategy by speaking out against the Iraq war and other foolishness but it seems the "patriots" are on Bin Laden's side.. They guy lived to almost see his "Mission Accomplished"
peace
karl
Edit: My bad on one thing. My response had been to other "why do you hate America buddies, Bluering and Hawkeye" I'm reposting below for those who missed it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Reposting something I wrote to Bluering and Hawkeye but which applies also to what Coz has been writing me
Remember I was talking about the Iraq war now. Don't forget, Saddam didn't not attack us, wasn't about to attack us, and was the worst enemy of Islamic fundamentalists.
So is it somehow unamerican to question creating a couple million refugees, and over 100,000 dead in a country we had no legitimate beef with? Japan, Germany and Italy are great countries these days (relatively you must admit) but at one point they violently tried to force their empire on the world and did evil things. Aren't you, by not questioning your government's actions, lining yourself up with those Japanese, or German Citizens who went along with their government's violence and aggression. Even we had a revolution in the beginning of this country. I can hear you now if there was an internet then "Why do you hate your country England???!!!" and it wasn't like the England ruled with that heavy a hand and all the residents here considered themselves English in the beginning.
A patriot needs to be vocal to keep his country in truth as corrupt powers will always arise if not checked by the people.
So Bluering, these people in Iraq you call evil. Who are they exactly and how do we know them from the Good Iraqis? or are there none, and if so, why invade to allegedly help them (pump their oil or make sure it's sold in dollars) Even Bin Laden hated Saddam and wanted him gone. We did him a trillion dollar favor.
You all want to feel good about yourselves by feeling good about your country but it's not that easy. We're all mixed bags. By doing so we lie to ourselves. I will take pride in my criticism of both Bush and Obama, even if they were personable in their own way (at least on the surface with Bush)
You fall victim to the same trap that creates the extremists in the first place. They see the Palestinians oppressed by Israeli occupation or someone in their family killed in an US air strike, or suffer under a US supported King or Dictator and figure we're all evil and must be defeated. Do you blame them? Wouldn't you feel the same. Can't you stand in anyone elses shoes for a minute or do you need to be in bigoted self-congratulation mode since we killed another bogeyman that we used to pay to do the killing for us?
It's not a black and white world and it takes courage and honesty to see our strengths and our flaws
Peace
Karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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A nice read on "target killings".
"Adopting a position on targeted killings involves complex legal, political, and moral judgments with very broad implications. Targeted killing is the most coercive tactic employed in the war on terrorism. Unlike detention or interrogation, it is not designed to capture the terrorist, monitor his or her actions, or extract information; simply put, it is designed to eliminate the terrorist. More than any other counterterrorism practice, it reveals the complexity involved in classifying counterterrorism operations either as part of a war or as a law enforcement operation."
http://harvardnsj.com/2010/06/law-and-policy-of-targeted-killing/
Obama make the decision...I glad the scum is gone.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Karl,
So, you understand suicide bombings, you're upset Osama wasn't taken alive.
Interesting!
Your spewings are base in little or no fact, you only imagine all we hear is lies.
I am sorry but you siding and defending
a man like Bin Laden really rubs me the wrong way.
I wonder why you choose to live in a country, that gives you so much freedom to live your lifestyle, and loath it so much.
I was almost killed in 9/11, I'm glad the sh#t bag is dead.
I respect and love my country, even though we blunder at times.
amen.
while i agree with some of what karl posts, and questioning is fine, he reminds me of a kid whose parent was wrong on one thing in the kids life so that forevermore the parent will always be wrong in that child's eyes.
of course there has been a lot of mis-reported information. i watched sunday night and read a lot of other reports and watched quite a bit of the news. the press took this story and frickin ran with it much like the football player heading to the wrong endzone.
just because we have the technology to report "live" does not mean that ALL the FACTS are reproted correctly as soon as the event happens.
my point karl is that you are obfuscating the recent killing of OBL with whatever wrongs the US has ever done. i don't know why you dont throw vietnam, slavery and everything else in the mix...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think the policy against targeted killings is really just a "honor among thieves" thing.
Leaders don't want to be assassination targets so they make it off limits in general.
Cause otherwise why is it OK to drop bombs on all kinds of houses full of people knowing you're killing terrorists and civilians alike but somehow you can't go after the guy you want? Are we just trying to punish him by killing his people? It's nuts
It's so disingenuous when Nato has bombed Gaddafi's compound a couple times now and claims they aren't trying to get him, just trying to protect civilians somehow
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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my point karl is that you are obfuscating the recent killing of OBL with whatever wrongs the US has ever done. i don't know why you dont throw vietnam, slavery and everything else in the mix...
This thread has been mostly on-topic but there's been some tangents. Everybody wants to celebrate getting the bogyman and then apply to good vibes to validating our war thing. I don't remember how Iraq came up, perhaps because by going to Iraq we lost Bin Laden in Tora Bora.
There are aspects of this that need questioning. What was Bin Laden's actual involvement with 9-11 (KSM was mastermind remember?) What were Bin Laden's goals and strategy and did we play into them? This is a time to get a perspective.
Note that reporting from the Gov was not real time. They had time to have Bin Laden's DNA tested by the time the Government reported that he was armed and used a woman as a shield. So it's not unfair to wonder if they spin stuff for public consumption and to bait extremists.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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You will notice I never resorted to name calling and I will not lower myself to your standards.
I did notice that. I thought I'd be a little more honest about my response to your denigrating remarks.
Would it have been more proper for me to say
"Coz, you seem to hate the truth and want our country to go bankrupt. Why do you hate America. Maybe you should live in Israel where they force you to join the Army and enforce their occupation??"
This "questioning patriotism" card has been overplayed by the right wing and I will no longer stand for it. It's guys like you going along with every war that have weakened our nation economically and in the eyes of the world and who created Bin Laden in the first place. We create these bogeymen and then kill them later while never examining how we empowered them in the first place. Noriega, Saddam, Bin Laden, when was the last time we weren't fighting ex-employees?
Peace
Karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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THANK YOU LIBERALS FOR CLEARING THIS UP!
FROM IOWAHAWK:
I ... completely underestimated the capacity of America's erstwhile "peace community" for turning on a dime and embracing the kind of all-American xenophobic flag-waving bloodlust they only recently decried. So today I stand proudly with my new friends of the formerly antiwar left in a mindlessly jingoistic salute to President Obama for an extralegal military assassination well done.
Yes, it's true that some pre-January 2009 antiwar activists have remained morally and logically consistent in their opposition to America's military presence in the Mideast; but, thank God, it appears now they were only a tiny, insignificant minority. Recent events have happily made clear that the antiwar movement of 2001-8 was overwhelmingly dominated by a vast silent hypocritical majority of craven political opportunists awaiting a Democratic administration to gleefully celebrate the covert execution of a man whom, until 28 months ago, they would have described as a "tragic civilian casualty." ...
Little did I know that this untested young Commander-in-Chief would muster the courage to read his weekly Gallup numbers and, in one daring unilateral extra-judicial targeted hit job, toss aside every single idiotic foreign policy principle of his election campaign. Perhaps most satisfyingly, it was a mission made possible thanks to information extracted by methods he previously banned as "illegal torture."
But this triumphant new era in situationally-unified American bloodlust does not belong to the President alone; we must also cite Congress's born-again waterboarders like Nancy Pelosi and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, and their newfound enthusiasm for what (at least until 9pm Sunday) they would have once considered illegal military murder squads. Neither can we forget the watchdogs of America's press, who have shown unprecedented ethical flexibility in shedding their long-held Gandhi moralism and embracing their inner Rambo. ...
Of course, I'm not naive enough to think our current wave of national unity will last forever. At some point, possibly after the next election, American troops will once again assume their traditional role of psychotic baby-killing objects of fear and pity. ... But when that day comes, we can look back at the week of May 1, 2011 and realize that it isn't personal. Hey, that's just the way the chad crumbles.
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shut up and pull
climber
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THESE ARE OUR ALLIES?
An imam from the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem vowed to take revenge over "the western dogs" for killing Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in Pakistan on Sunday. In a Youtube video uploaded by the imam he said: "The western dogs are rejoicing after killing one of our Islamic lions. From Al-Aqsa Mosque, where the future caliphate will originate with the help of God, we say to them - the dogs will not rejoice too much for killing the lions. The dogs will remain dogs and the lion, even if he is dead, will remain a lion."The imam then verbally attacked US President Barack Obama saying: "You personally instructed to kill Muslims. You should know that soon you'll hang together with Bush Junior."
Sami al-Abasi notes at Pajamas Media that the Muslim Brotherhood has issued one statement on the death of bin Laden in English for foreign consumption and another in Arabic for its native followers. Al-Abasi observes that the statement refers to the killing of "Sheikh" Osama bin Laden, using an honorific title, and condemns the attack as an assassination.
The Al-Aksa Martyr's Brigade, affiliated with the Fatah movement of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, has put out this statement on the death of bin Laden. In their announcement, a copy of which reached MAAN [private Palestinian news agency], the [Al-Aqsa Martyrs'] Brigades said: "The Islamic nation awoke to a catastrophe the reports of the Shahid - (Martyr-) death of the Sheikh, Jihad-fighter Osama bin Laden, in a treacherous manner, by the gangs of the heretics and those who stray."
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shut up and pull
climber
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GOOD JOB BARRY.
American Indians object to ‘Geronimo’ as code for bin Laden raid
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shut up and pull
climber
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The Hill: Pelosi Thanks Bush For His Role In Bin Laden’s Destruction. “House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) said she called former President George W. Bush on Tuesday to congratulate him on the capture and killing of Osama bin Laden. Following a classified briefing on the operation to take down bin Laden, Pelosi told reporters that she called the former president earlier in the day to ‘congratulate him and thank him for the leadership role he had played in this quest over the years.’”
One sign of graciousness from an otherwise dimwitted nutjob.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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if my last name was Arab origin i would change it...
nice job on getting that sucker seals!
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shut up and pull
climber
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UH OH. OBAMA'S MAN PANETTA PULLS ASIDE THE CURTAIN.
WATERBOARDING + GITMO = DEAD OSAMA.
LIBS = EGG ALL OVER FACE.
Williams: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission?
Panetta: No, I think some of the detainees clearly were — you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I’m also saying that the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.
Williams: So, final point, one final time: enhanced interrogation techniques, which has always been kind of a handy euphemism in these post-9/11 years, that includes waterboarding.
Panetta: That’s correct.
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shut up and pull
climber
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FROM INSTAPUNDIT:
JERUSALEM IMAM: Obama Will Soon Hang For Killing Bin Laden. Okay, first, any talk of hanging is just plain racist. Stupid racist imam.
Second, what’s this about how dogs should not rejoice after killing a lion? If I were a dog, and I killed a lion, I’d damn sure rejoice.
But Osama was more of a jackal, you know? And if this dumbass keeps talking, people might get the idea that we’re at war with Islam or something. And trust me, your Imam-ness, you don’t want Americans to decide that.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Although we Conservatives find it genuinely hopeful that Liberals overcame their brainwashing and are celebrating the righteous death of Bin Laden will it have any lasting benefit? For instance will Liberals now stop interfering with the executions of convicted murderers in US prisons?
OT
A Los Gatos school student related the following story to her family
Monday evening: At the beginning of class the teacher said they should discuss the death of Osama Bin Laden. All the students broke out in cheering
and applause to which the teacher broke out in tears.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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if my last name was Arab origin i would change it...
I work with a guy who did just that. A sad commentary on America that he felt the need to do so. Even sadder is that he was right.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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My family changed our name during WW1.
We went from "Von" Weese to "Van" Weese.
It seems Germans weren't real popular here then.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Yes, watching liberals rejoice at the assassination of bin Laden inside a foreign country is -- to say the least -- heartening. It is especially hopeful that liberals might be coming around, especially after their celebration of Michael Moore's "Farenheit 9-11" movie where libs have, for a decade, claimed that Bush orchestrated 9-11, not bin Laden.
Libs -- do you now renounce your idiotic view that Bush caused 9-11?
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shut up and pull
climber
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THE 1,000,000,000,000 DOLLAR QUESTION FOR LIBS:
Why are you celebrating the death of bin Laden if Bush masterminded 9-11?
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dirtbag
climber
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Our liberal community members must be shuttering at Obama having broken so many laws.
OK Fatty, who here is upset? A few perhaps. Most? Doubt it.
The US likely broke at least one international law. But on the other hand...we have given so much money to Pakistan the last few years to get rid of their rats, and it is clear they are both unwilling and unable to do so. Pakistan has wanted it both ways, the money and the sovereignty but without providing results: well, tough sh#t.
And btw, this was exactly the sort of operation I think we should have emphasized doing all along instead of nation building.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Ahhh, now liberals are all OK with assassinating folks on foreign soil, and extracting information using waterboarding, and holding Islamofascists at Gitmo, and using secret prisons.
One word -- Classssssssssssssic!
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dirtbag
climber
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Which is why relations with Pakistan have been so difficult.
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jstan
climber
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We really need to get a handle on the beast. Why do we let discussions deteriorate in this way? I think the first thing we need to do is realize even our strongest feelings do not even exist a hair's breadth outside of our brains. But to the point.
Today's paper comments that Bin Laden's fate was probably sealed simply by the rules of engagement. I raised the issue of his being captured alive because this is the kind of people we are trying to be. Without a doubt his being dead is less inconvenient for us but that is no proof that this is the reason he is dead. To make such a proof one has to ascribe one's own weaknesses to others.
Nothing is perfect. Always to insist on perfection is foolishness. It is enough to ask for the reasonable.
Had we bombed the compound we would have telegraphed a lack of commitment. An unwillingness to risk danger. A willingness to have innocents killed so that we might be in no danger. A willingness to accept "once over lightly." This is offensive. In no wise is it admirable.
A final comment on the CIA. A lot of crap has always gone on over at the CIA. Only a portion of it is necessary crap. There is such a thing as necessary crap. It takes a strong President who knows the difference to make the CIA work effectively.
When Valerie Plame was outed for political gain by all logic the CIA should have been totally and permanently destroyed. A national asset - gone. Why was it not? There are good people. There are always good people. Indeed the commitment is so strong even families over several generations have worked in the CIA. All that is needed is a direct order in the national interest from a strong leader to bring that commitment to the fore. This was a resurrection. A totally awesome accomplishment after the destruction wrought by Bush/Cheney.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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"Yet today’s achievement is a testament to the greatness of our country and the determination of the American people."
This I found disturbing. That executing one man shows our greatness as a nation. That killing a holed-up human being is an "achievement." A testament to the greatness of our country would be __. Fill in the blank yourself.
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dirtbag
climber
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A final comment. Had we bombed the compound we would have telegraphed a lack of commitment. An unwillingness to risk danger. A willingness to have innocents killed so that we might be in no danger. A willingness to accept "once over lightly."
Excellent point.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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dirtbag - That it took the President 16 hrs to realize that if he decided against taking UBL and it became public knowledge his political career
would be over that day.
Americans would surround the White House with torches and pitchforks 'asking' for a face-to-face meeting with Osama's protector.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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There is probably no point in publishing a picture of Bin Laden.
jstan - my sense is that we underestimate the strength of our survivor bias illogic.
From MSNBC:
CIA director Leon Panetta told NBC News Tuesday that a photo proving the death of Osama bin Laden "would be presented to the public," but the comment quickly drew a response from the White House saying no decision has yet been made.
"The bottom line is that, you know, we got bin Laden and I think we have to reveal to the rest of the world the fact that we were able to get him and kill him," Panetta said in an interview with Nightly News.
Our CIA Director believes that we need to show the photos in order to convince people that bin Laden is dead.
Our mythology has convinced us that we can individually replicate the information process that is being reported by the government and media. We believe that our own internal individual facial recognition software, based on our personal experience looking at photos of bin Laden that the government and media have provided for us, and a photo that the government is giving us of bin Laden after he’s been shot in the head, is more accurate than all of the information that the government has used in identifying him.
We mistrust the information coming from the government and media, so we need to personally verify that bin Laden is dead by using information that the government and media is giving us.
Believing in god - now that's wacky!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Libs -- do you now renounce your idiotic view that Bush caused 9-11?
How you could be so completely obtuse and still function as a human being is beyond me. Certainly it is likely that someone like Bin Laden helped make 911 happen. We don't really know if it was Bin Laden because we have only been told that, we haven't been shown any proof. And since our government has shown itself to be fully capable of telling misleading lies, it is only prudent that one question their actions, especially when those actions can lead to new wars.
But none of that has anything to do with whether someone in our government sanctioned that attack. It definitely took someone like Bin Laden, but that doesn't rule out that someone in our government could have helped the plan along.
But whatever.. Bury your head in the sand if you want. Accept every last thing the government tells you and be a good little citizen. Our power brokers rejoice at leading unquestioning fools.
Its funny/sad how its okay for someone like Oliely to question the government, but not okay for a liberal to do the same. If Bill does it, he is being a true American. But if a liberal does it, he is being UnAmerican and should move out of the country. What a crock..
.............
Its also funny/sad how people like Suap think that because you protest a war, that you are against any use of force. That is just ridiculous, since most liberals support the use of force in apprehending criminals. Even deadly force. And more democrat/liberals have served in the military during war time that the republicans, but the republicans are supposedly the party that protects us. What a crock.
As for Bin Laden.. Obama did make the effort to capture him. Does it look hinky? yes.. it looks like he put a kill him no matter what order into place.. But what if it wasn't Obama? What if it was the CIA going around the president? What if the president wanted him captured alive, but said kill him if he resists? Would that be so bad? We allow our police to shoot to kill if they are being threatened when they arrest a potentially violent person. So what is the difference here? Just because it looks like they went in on orders to kill, doesn't meant that they didn't have orders to capture him if they could.
It appears to me that the only rule he might have broke was to enter a foreign country. And I say "might have" because those countries have very real problems. Obama could have easily gotten permission to enter the country with troops, with the proviso that the Pakistani government would then denounce it afterwards in order for them to protect themselves from their own people.
But since we aren't suppose to question anything.. I guess we should all just shut up and accept whatever our government tells us.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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proud young reservist fattrad
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dirtbag
climber
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dirtbag - That it took the President 16 hrs to realize that if he decided against taking UBL and it became public knowledge his political career
would be over that day.
Americans would surround the White House with torches and pitchforks 'asking' for a face-to-face meeting with Osama's protector.
You do realize that it was not at all certain OBL was in the house?
And that there was significant risk to the nation, civilians near the house, and the seals themsleves in undertaking this...in addition to this being a blatant violation of international law and a blow to our relations with Pakistan.
The days of cowboying our foreign policy are thankfully over.
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jstan
climber
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Jeff:
Plame had been in the field. When outed opposition intelligence had only to go to their logs of who met with whom and when to get sensitive information.
No offense intended. But I just want it understood.
I was never that young.
Ever.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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As no one, not even the vainglorious al Qaeda propaganda machine, has so far claimed that the US didn't kill bin Laden, it seems safe to assume that it did. No doubt someone will eventually pop up asking "Where's the body?", or even impersonating bin Laden, but just self-serving stunts.
Photos, DNA, and on-site identification by the wife are in any case only part of the evidence. The US has apparently been hot on the trail since mid-2010, and likely has a variety of other circumstantial and even direct evidence confirming the identity, although much of it they may not want to release, as it might negatively effect other CIA efforts.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Plame was a desk jockey when "outed", never to see the "field" again. She and her husband had an agenda, one against their boss, George Bush.
This is so incredibly ignorant. It wasn't the loss of plame that was the problem. Her usefulness as an undercover agent likely was over. It was all the contacts she had over the years, who still might have been in place but are now potentially exposed that was the problem.
Edit: Jstan beat me to it..
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jstan
climber
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And thanks to you John for you input.
Valerie Plame and her husband both did have an agenda. Jeff is right.
That agenda was the mandate of the CIA.
1. a true assessment of what is faced by our country
2. our national interest.
The Bush administration's interest was not in the interest of the US.
Edit:
Best makes an excellent point above. In our revolutionary war no single leader could have brought together the 13 states if the motion had not already been there in each of the states. Bin laden's role involved using the oil money his father had pulled together to fund a larger organizational effort. Not a unique phenomenon.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Ahhh, now liberals are all OK with assassinating folks on foreign soil, and extracting information using waterboarding, and holding Islamofascists at Gitmo, and using secret prisons.
One word -- Classssssssssssssic!
SUAP,
Where do you come up with this doo-doo? This poop?
The answer is NO! we are not OK with thuggery and the ways of the GOP Neo-cons.
And if you think for a minute that OBL orchestrated 9-11-01 and pulled all this off with smoking, drinking, and night-club bar hoping "Islamic Jihadists" of Saudi decent using boxcutter knives, and then he orchestrated his entire family to be safely flown out of the USA immediately after "The Big Party" then you are really clue-less. Man, he could do all of that, and then from a cave?
Like I said before, if he could do all of that, then he is the most brilliant War Strategist the World has ever seen or known. We should be studying his strategy in every War College around the World. He did all of that and on a shoe-string budget? Simply and absolutely amazing.
How did OBL know and plan 9-11 to occur the very day the entire DoD and Armed Forces were going to do massive war games, playing the same very scenerio? How did OBL get the DoD and US Armed Forces to stand-down during a massive hi-jacking with 4 commercial jets involved? Read: Crossing the Rubicon, that first exposed the massive lies of 9-11-01. If you want to get into it we can. We have done so here on ST many times and those threads are easily pulled up. Tons of physical evidence and means, motive, and opportunity evidence to prove OBL couldn't have done it and that 9-11 was LIHOP at the least, and MIHOP at the most. Even Bible Code says so.
We do not know the full story, nor do we know exactly what happened on 9-11-01. What we do know is that the evidence now known invalidates the Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) as put forth by the 9-11 Commission Report. The report was a complete sham. 9-11 has never been properly investigated. 9-11 was a "Rumor of War," a lie of War. A lie to get us into War. And it worked big-time: Afghanistan, Iraq, and more to come. War profiteering out of control.
What we do know is that TPTB they are lying, and lying Big-time.
Release all the Pentagon film footage from all the security cameras from 9-11-01. Waiting. Still waiting. How long is this gonna take? . . .
What we have here with OBL was an assassination. TPTB took out their own former CIA asset to shut him up. They certainly couldn't risk having him face his accusers in a court of law. Too many dark secrets would be revealed. They took out their own "go to terrorist" and "whenever necessary and needed bogeyman."
That is what has happened. That is all. They knew where he was for a very long time. Wikileaks has already proven that.
Obama is the best Republican President we have had since Eisenhower. Now he gave himself nearly an automatic re-election to boot. He is one smart dude. But I'm still waiting for "Change I Can Believe In," that I voted for. I didn't want more Bush/Cheney, even if it is the lite beer variety.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabon movin on
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exactly
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I keep waiting to read what this thread is about. Bin Laden's Dead what? Laden's dead courier? Dead son?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Ron said Now cmon,,,a year ago you ALL were talking up Obama AND the GLOBAL POWER thing.
Commas aside, do YOU even understand what that means? I don't.
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jstan
climber
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Got a breaking news flag on the screen.
"Obama has decided not to release Bin Laden photos."
Like I said earlier.
No Point.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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That's right Jstan, breaking news:
Obama: I will not release photos:
In an interview with Steve Kroft for this Sunday's 60 Minutes, President Obama says he won't release post-mortem images of Osama bin Laden taken to prove his death.
Video of the comments will appear on the CBS "Evening News" on Wednesday.
Republican House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers said Wednesday that the Obama administration should not release the gruesome post-mortem images, saying it could complicate the job for American troops overseas. Rogers told CBS News he has seen a post-mortem photo.
"The risks of release outweigh the benefits," he said. "Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East."
"Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet," he continued. "Osama bin Laden is not a trophy - he is dead and let's now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated."
Skeptics have called on the United State
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shut up and pull
climber
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GOTTA LOVE THIS POST:
Obama is the best Republican President we have had since Eisenhower. Now he gave himself nearly an automatic re-election to boot. He is one smart dude. But I'm still waiting for "Change I Can Believe In," that I voted for. I didn't want more Bush/Cheney, even if it is the lite beer variety.
LAUGHING. SO. HARD. MUST. LIE. DOWN.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Our liberal community members must be shuttering at Obama having broken so many laws.
Actually, I definitely prefer a targeted killing to bombing down a whole country and killing thousands and spending billions.
but all this stuff gets complicated. It appears Obama is either very smart or very lucky.
We have had the Pakistani Presidents in our pocket for awhile now. That's a good thing cause they are a nuclear armed country with 170 million people. Thing is, the people in Pakistan matter too. Too often we've have presidents in our pocket, like Mubarak of Egypt or the Shah of Iran, and finally the people rise up and oust them and feel we have been their enemy. It seems the majority of the Pakistani people still aren't against the US, but significant minorities are. It's a dangerous game with a nuclear power. Glad we're getting away with it so far.
We never seem to learn this lesson as we even helped Egypt get rid of Mubarak, but now it's pretty questionable if the new Egypt won't become like Iran after their revolution (I dunno but that Muslim Brotherhood statement is telling)
And perhaps we're about to do the something like that in Libya. We've spend 100s of millions there already but who is it that will rule Libya when the dust settles?
This is how we got there with Osama. We got these guys who were pissed off that a imperial power was occupying Muslim land and gave them weapons, and money. Surprise, surprise that when the Soviets were gone, those same guys didn't like our Mid-east policy either, and came after us.
We are our own worst enemies in any case. When you support kings and dictators in other lands, it's going to piss off their people and you can expect some blowback once in awhile. That doesn't mean you have to further bankrupt your country and spend trillions going after a small group of terrorists by invading whole countries.
With that in mind, targeting killing seems like a lesser evil. I'm hoping we find ways to get ever lesser evil in the future
PEace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Killing Bin laden LEGAL: Fattrad wrong again, as usual.
The nation's top law enforcement official Wednesday tried to dismiss questions over whether Sunday's killing of Usama bin Laden was legal, saying in no uncertain terms he is "proud" of the assault and it "was justified as an act of national self defense."
"Let me make something very clear," Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "The operation in which Usama bin Laden was killed was lawful. He was the head of al Qaeda, the organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement ... [and] he said he would not be taken alive."
Holder said it's lawful to "target an enemy commander in the field," just as U.S. forces did during World War II when it shot down a plane carrying Japanese Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.
Bin Laden was "by my estimation, and the estimation of the Justice Department, a lawful military target, and the operation was conducted consistent with our law [and] with our values."
Bin Laden made no attempts to surrender and there was "no indication he wanted to do that," Holder said. Even if the Al Qaeda leader had surrendered, there would have been a "good basis" for "those very brave Navy SEALs" to shoot bin Laden "in order to protect themselves and the other people who were in that building," including "substantial numbers of women and children" who were not harmed in the raid.
Both Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee supported Holder's assessment, with Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., saying the Navy SEALS who killed bin Laden "had to believe the moment they encountered bin Laden -- whether he raised his hands or not -- that could be a fake surrender."
"They were well within their rights in shooting him as soon as possible," Graham said.
Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/04/holder-bin-laden-mission-was-legal-and-act-national-self-defense#ixzz1LPIiv0LL
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shut up and pull
climber
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THE BIG QUESTION FOR ALL THE LIBS:
If Bush caused 9-11, why did Obama kill OBL? And if OBL did not cause 9-11, why the need to assassinate him?
LAUGHING. SO. HARD. CAN'T. KEEP. TEARS. FROM. FLOWING.
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shut up and pull
climber
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CLASSSSSIC!
WHAT WILL THE MICHAEL MOORE FARENHEIT 9-11 COOLAID DRINKERS DO NOW?
Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "The operation in which Usama bin Laden was killed was lawful. He was the head of al Qaeda, the organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement ... [and] he said he would not be taken alive."
LAUGHING. SOOOOOOOOOOOO HARD RIGHT NOW.
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shut up and pull
climber
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OBAMA KILLS OSAMA BECAUSE PER OBAMA BIN LADEN CAUSED 911. THE AG HOLDER BACKS OBAMA UP.
OH MY GOD. IS HOLDER, OBAMA, BUSHCO, CHENEY, ETC ALL CONSPIRING TOGETHER TO HIDE THE FACT THAT IT WAS BUSH WHO CAUSED 9-11, AS ALL YOU NUTJOB AMERICA-HATING LIBS HAVE TOLD US FOR YEARS?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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what a dumb fuk
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Obama, still beholden to his backers, but:
Global depression sidestepped. Recovering from worst global recession since WWII is slow. Not sure if anything could be done different that would help.
Huge deficit Bush setup in 2009 (cut taxes, raise spending) increased a bit in 2010, Reducing it is slow. I'd like to see proposals from either side that actually BALANCE the budget at some point.
Iraq war, which we should have never started is tapering off.
The justified Afghan war ramped up after being ignored for years, but progress is slow. Not sure if anything could be done different that would help.
Bombing Libyan aholes, without risking American lives.
Bin Laden the leader of the group that attacked us, dead given the brave choice of the commander in chief and kick ass special ops.
This independent centrist's rating of Obama just went from B- to B+.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
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If Bush caused 9-11
Huh? Who said that Bush caused 9/11?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Regarding the legality of us going in a sovereign nation to get Bin Laden and that being legal.
For those that say yes, what would you say if Cuba or Panama sent a hit squad into the US and killed Luis Posada, the terrorist who downed a Cuban Airliner among other things, and whom the US had been harboring?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
Ok?
Now, it could well be that we cleared this raid with the Pakistanis and they just politically don't want to admit it. I already heard one Pak official say they were working with us on it and yet others deny it. We don't get the truth but what politics demand be said.
Peace
Karl
Does this mean we can get out of Afghanistan? It's been how many years there and we're losing just as many guys? Did it work out for the Soviets? Some places are backward and you just can't make it right there. They don't want foreigners on their soil (except for the business guys and politicians that need us)
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS = BUSH CAUSED 911. REMEMBER FARENHEIT 9-11?
OBAMA = OBL CAUSED 911 AND MUST BE KILLED.
ERIC HOLDER = "The operation in which Usama bin Laden was killed was lawful. He was the head of al Qaeda, the organization that had conducted the attacks of September 11th. He admitted his involvement ... [and] he said he would not be taken alive."
LIBERALS = EGG ALLLLL OVER THEIR FACE.
WHEN WILL LIBS APOLOGIZE FOR SLANDERING BUSH FOR SO MANY YEARS?
OH -- AND PELOSI THANKS BUSH TODAY FOR HIS EFFORTS.
LAUGHING. SO. HARD. MUST. SIT. DOWN.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
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I already heard one Pak official say they were working with us on it and yet others deny it. We don't get the truth but what politics demand be said.
It appears that the lines of communication are very fractured in the Pakistani government. What one official knows may be worlds away from the knowledge of another official.
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shut up and pull
climber
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SLOW JOE BLOWS IT AGAIN.
Since President Barack Obama announced that “a small team of Americans” had killed Osama bin Laden, US government officials have carefully stuck to the line that they will not talk about which units were involved.
Obama did not say it was the SEALs. In numerous television appearances, Obama’s counter-terrorism chief John Brennan didn’t and his deputy national security adviser Denis McDonough didn’t. Despite the numerous news reports that named the SEALs, none of the anonymous briefers from the CIA and Pentagon would confirm it.
Here’s a typical response to a question about the SEALs from a senior defence official in a Pentagon briefing on Monday:
QUESTION: Can I ask you, can you confirm that it was a (Navy) SEAL team? And was this a specially designated team that had been practising or reviewing intelligence for a while and they were the unit of choice?
SENIOR DEFENCE OFFICIAL: Not going to comment on units or numbers.
But here’s what the legendarily verbose and loose-lipped Vice President Joe Biden said at a dinner at Washington’s Ritz Carlton Hotel last night to mark the 50th anniversary of the Atlantic Council:
Let me briefly acknowledge tonight’s distinguished honorees. Admiral James Stavridis is a, is the real deal. He can tell you more about and understands the incredible, the phenomenal, the just almost unbelievable capacity of his Navy SEALs and what they did last Sunday.
And:
Folks, I’d be remiss also if I didn’t say an extra word about the incredible events, extraordinary events of this past Sunday. As Vice President of the United States, as an American, I was in absolute awe of the capacity and dedication of the entire team, both the intelligence community, the CIA, the SEALs. It just was extraordinary.
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS = WE MUST SHOW THE ENTIRE WORLD THE ABU GHRAIB PHOTOS THAT EMBARRASS AMERICA.
OBAMA = WE CANNOT SEE OBL'S PHOTO BECAUSE ........?
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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LIBERALS = BUSH CAUSED 911. REMEMBER FARENHEIT 9-11?
You're joking I hope. That sort of asinine conjuncture doesn't even warrant a response.
Turn off your caps, I don't like yelling.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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Maybe the world cop can issue President Obama a citation? Wait, we're supposed to be world cop... what do you do when the world cop doesn't follow its own rules?
Can The Hague issue jaywalking tickets?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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if Bush caused 9-11
Bush couldn't call 9-11. He couldn't find the 11 key on the phone.
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dirtbag
climber
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what a dumb fuk
The best response to that angry troll.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dingus...could you actually provide a link/law to backup you saying the killing of Osama was illegal?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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LAUGHING. SO. HARD. CAN'T. KEEP. TEARS. FROM. FLOWING.
suap,
that is good news. since your head is so far up your a*# it will be a cleansing enama for you!
edited
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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conjuncture != conjecture
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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F*#k yeah!
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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Nutjob,
conjuncture != conjecture
Yeah. My bad.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Once bin Laden was 'found', he couldn't be unfound. At which point he became an active headache for the Pakistani government. They're probably just fine with his death, or if he'd been arrested and taken elsewhere. Saves their having to deal with it, allows some face saving, mostly puts it in the SEP Field (Somebody Else's Problem - not to be confused with suap). They're going to have enough problems as it is, in terms of public opinion and of elements of their armed forces and intelligence services. Not to mention that at least two other senior al Qaeda leaders survive, and are somewhere else in Pakistan.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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They say they aren't going to release Bin Laden's death Photo.
LIkely they will allow it to be leaked so they can have the benefit of proving it without the burden of being accused of inappropriately displaying inflammatory images.
Peace
Karl
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Careful Karl. That's a brilliant analysis of the situation but never let them know how smart you are.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dingus...you link still isn't clear in my mind if the killing of Osama was illegal. I could be wrong.
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS = GITMO AND WATERBOARDING MUST BE OUTLAWED!
Today's headlines:
GOP: Harsh interrogation led to bin Laden...
OFFICIALS: Find aided by info from Gitmo detainees...
CIA chief: Waterboarding helped...
LIBERALS = EGG ALL OVER FACE.
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shut up and pull
climber
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INSTAPUNDIT:
SO, OBAMA WON’T RELEASE OSAMA PHOTOS? This seems like a mistake to me, and the double-shuffle of contradictory messages that has led up to this decision hasn’t looked ready for prime time. As Stephen Green notes below, the contrast between the well-run military side of this operation, and the shaky White House PR side, has been quite striking.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dingus..."Some pundits and journalists condemn U.S. policy as a flagrant violation of the Geneva Conventions. Writing in the Guardian, a left-wing British broadsheet, professor of human rights law Conor Gearty proclaimed U.S. policy to be "cruel, unnecessary and as dangerous now as it was when first introduced."[22] But Gearty's criticism is more emotional than substantive. Nothing in the conventions requires that all captives receive prisoner of war status. In fact, article four of the Third Geneva Convention stipulates a number of requirements that must be met before a captive irregular combatant can qualify as a prisoner of war.
The drafters of the 1949 Geneva Conventions sought to base the treaty on past precedent. While the 1907 Hague regulations stipulated that "the laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps," those same regulations also presented a four-part test to determine eligibility of those irregular forces for lawful combatant status.[23] In order to be recognized as legitimate combatants, the Hague regulations required irregular units to "be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; to have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance; to carry arms openly; and to conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."[24]
The drafters of the Third Geneva Convention adopted this four-part test as part of the criteria to determine eligibility for POW status. The delegates drafting the convention made quite clear in their debates that they did not want to confer automatic POW status on irregular forces. After much negotiation, a special committee of the conference resolved this question by crafting article 4(A) so as to differentiate between regular armed forces, constituent volunteer corps, and militias on one hand, from irregular resistance movements, on the other. The drafters agreed to apply the Hague four-part test to the latter.[25]
Terrorists groups ranging from separatists like the PKK in Turkey, Chechen rebels in Russia, or the Pakistani-backed Harakat ul-Mujahideen in India; to Palestinian groups like Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, to the numerous cells that comprise the Al-Qaeda network all fail the four-part test. Hijacking civilian airliners and flying them into office buildings is not "in accordance with the laws and customs of war," nor is using human bombs to blow up buses, nor is lining up and executing school teachers. On these grounds, as well, the Taliban also forfeited claim to POW status. While they did carry arms openly, they neither observed the international humanitarian law, nor wore any recognizable sign to distinguish themselves from civilians.
http://www.meforum.org/651/does-human-rights-law-apply-to-terrorists
You said the killing was illegal...I'm not so sure.
SUAP...you are an idiot!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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break over SUAP, back to work at Taco Bell now for you
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shut up and pull
climber
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The Hill: Pelosi Thanks Bush For His Role In Bin Laden’s Destruction. “House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) said she called former President George W. Bush on Tuesday to congratulate him on the capture and killing of Osama bin Laden. Following a classified briefing on the operation to take down bin Laden, Pelosi told reporters that she called the former president earlier in the day to ‘congratulate him and thank him for the leadership role he had played in this quest over the years.’”
LAUGHING SO HARD. MUST SIT DOWN.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I just don't understand why you 'yay OBL is Dead!' people just can't admit the president might have exceeded his authority in ordering his execution.
I admit he may have done something wrong.
Will you admit he might have tried to have them capture him, and that in the midst of capturing him they had to kill him? Which is something that can happen anytime you try to capture a person who is known to be dangerous. Would you have the police back out of a house and leave a gunman alone if they couldn't capture him alive? It doesn't really matter that he didn't have a weapon. We don't yet know what threatening move he might have made. Could you admit that a person could make a threatening move without a weapon in hand? Especially if that person was known to be dangerous.
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shut up and pull
climber
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WHEN THE MAJORITY PAYS NO TAXES, AND NEEDS THE MINORITY TO SUCK OFF OF -- IT IS OVER.
TAXPROF: 51% of Households Pay No Income Tax; Share of Taxes Paid by Rich Growing Faster Than Income.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Litmus test - so its OK for the British government to target IRA holdout terrorists in the US without permission, conducting their own operation?
No its not okay. We have working agreements with them.
Could you admit that we might have had the Pakistani governments permission, but that they can't admit it without causing problems in their own country?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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DMT wrote:
Its very simple - if a Pakistani government official with sufficient authority had a quiet discussion with a US government official of sufficient authority, to the effect that 'when the U.S. finds OBL the U.S. is going to get him" and permission was granted and not subsequently withdrawn, then the mission was legal. I don't know the structure of their government well but I'm guessing the Prime Minister or Chief of Defense or someone at that level.
If no such permission was granted the mission was not legal.
Simple as that. That Holder dissemination was embarrassing.
It is not that simple; that would depend on the domestic law of Pakistan and perhaps on principles of "international law" (a slippery concept).
Let's think about it if the tables were turned. Assume King Abdul (or whoever) in Saudi Arabia wants to assassinate a Saudi dissident who is living in beautiful Boulder, Colorado. Not wanting to create an international incident, King Abdul first asks the US President if this is OK, and implies that oil prices may go up quite a bit if the answer is "no." So Obama assures King Abdul that everything will be fine from an operational point of view. Obama calls his buddy Governor Hickenlooper to go over things--maybe he implies that there's a nice ambassadorship in Hick's future if there's no local trouble. Boulder police are conveniently preoccupied on a particular evening, and the hit goes off perfectly. (There were some early reports that the dissident tried to use the last remaining Boulder hippie as shield before he was shot, but thankfully those turned out to be erroneous embellishments of a pumped-up Saudi assassin).
King Abdul and the Saudi hit squad have all committed murder under the laws of the State of Colorado, notwithstanding Obama and Hickenlooper's "OK." In fact, Obama and Hick may also be guilty as accomplices in "aiding and abetting" the crime, but we don't need to get into that. There is nothing under US state or federal law, to my knowledge, that gives the president or governor the right to authorize assassinations. If there is such a law or a legal doctrine, I would question its constitutionality as it would seem to conflict with the "due process" rights of the victim (among other things).
Just because someone in the government of Pakistan may have given tacit approval of the hit does NOT somehow make it legal. If anyone disagrees with me, I'd love to get an explanation of their reasoning.
I agree with DMT that Holder's dissembling was a travesty. Many of you seem to acknowledge that the hit was illegal, but you are still OK with it. I can understand that position--legality and illegality are not synonymous with right and wrong. But those of you who think this hit was legal are clueless--as DMT recognized, the US AG embarrassed himself when he tried to justify it, and none of you are going to do any better.
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dirtbag
climber
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Litmus test - so its OK for the British government to target IRA holdout terrorists in the US without permission, conducting their own operation?
DMT
First, I agree with you. I have doubts the legality but I'm fine with the outcome.
This is not a legal answer to your hypothetical. But I think the circumstances are different than what occurred. Britain would actually trust us to capture and extradite violent IRA members. We would work together.
The Pakistanis--can they be trusted? Would they cooperate? Would info leak?
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS FOR 10 YEARS:
1. BUSH CAUSED 9-11!
2. CLOSE GITMO!
3. WATERBOARDING IS BAAAAD!
Today?
1. Obama and Holder say OBL caused 9-11.
2. Gitmo open, intel taken from detainees led to OBL death.
3. Waterboarding KSM led to intel that led to OBL death.
Liberals -- egg all over face.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dingus wrote: Litmus test - so its OK for the British government to target IRA holdout terrorists in the US without permission, conducting their own operation?
DMT
Hillary thanks the Pakistan leaders for their help in capturing Osama.
Are you sure the US didn't have the ok?
SUAP wrote: 1. Obama and Holder say OBL caused 9-11....RIGHT
2. Gitmo open, intel taken from detainees led to OBL death....WRONG
3. Waterboarding KSM led to intel that led to OBL death....WRONG
Idiot!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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debating the legality of entering pakistan for someone who waged war on us is like debating what caliber of bullets killed him.
Actually it is a legitimate debate, because we might not like other countries entering out country in what they determine to be a war. How would you feel if say Venezuala sent a team in to capture someone they thought was at war with them?
I understand where DMT is coming from. I just hope that he can see that there are more sides to the story that we don't really know, and may never know.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Its very simple - if a Pakistani government official with sufficient authority had a quiet discussion with a US government official of sufficient authority, to the effect that 'when the U.S. finds OBL the U.S. is going to get him" and permission was granted and not subsequently withdrawn, then the mission was legal. I don't know the structure of their government well but I'm guessing the Prime Minister or Chief of Defense or someone at that level.
If no such permission was granted the mission was not legal.
Simple as that.
DMT
Legal, not legal, who gives a f*#k?
They want to say it's no legal? Harboring Bin Laden is an act of war.
They should just be happy we didn't nuke the site from orbit.
They want to go to war against us over it? What are they going to do. They're already at war against us.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Hawkeye, you may have meant what you said in an entirely speculative way, but DMT has posted photos of his daughter climbing, so that makes it personal. And NOT COOL. If it were me I'd apologize.
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shut up and pull
climber
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HEADLINES TODAY:
OFFICIALS: Find aided by info from Gitmo detainees...
CIA chief: Waterboarding helped...
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBERALS -- WE MUST SHOW ALL THE ABU GHRAIB PHOTOS TO REALLY MAKE SURE AMERICA LOOKS BAD IN A TIME OF WAR.
LIBERALS TODAY? WE CAN'T SHOW OSAMA'S BRAINS BLOWN OUT BECAUSE THAT WILL MAKE AMERICA LOOK BAD AND ANGER THE ISLAMOFASCISTS WHO WANT TO KILL US.
LOGIC? I THINK NOT.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Here’s Nancy Pelosi from a press conference on September 7, 2006:
[E]ven if [Osama bin Laden] is caught tomorrow, it is five years too late. He has done more damage the longer he has been out there. But, in fact, the damage that he has done . . . is done. And even to capture him now I don’t think makes us any safer.
And here’s Nancy Pelosi yesterday:
The death of Osama bin Laden marks the most significant development in our fight against al-Qaida. . . . I salute President Obama, his national security team, Director Panetta, our men and women in the intelligence community and military, and other nations who supported this effort for their leadership in achieving this major accomplishment. . . . [T]he death of Osama bin Laden is historic. . . .
This devastating then-and-now comparison comes to us courtesy of John Hinderaker of Power Line. It underscores the degree to which partisanship can ravage people’s fair-mindedness and, in the process, make them look like fools and hacks. Such things aren’t uncommon in politics—but what is rare is to see such intellectual dishonesty proven so conclusively.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I'm worried that shut up is going to have an aneurysm when Obama is re-elected.
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dirtbag
climber
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It would be great if he followed his username and actually shut up. No one takes his frothing seriously. Like a lot of people, I'm sure, I just read over his posts.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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Who is this shutupandpull character? It's got absolutely nothing constructive to offer. With it, it's like conversing with a robot that's trained to yell back. It can yell back, but it can't offer anything of merit for us to read.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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He is pretty funny though.. Sort of like Weld it.. But Weld it has class. I hope he has insurance when that blood vessel blows. Or he will be one broke mo fo.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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This thread is really getting spammed.
I don't want to be too repetitive, but I do think it's important to point out that the assassination of Osama was likely illegal even if the government of Pakistan gave its tacit OK.
That would depend on the internal laws of Pakistan, which I don't think any of us know jack about. But I'm skeptical that Pakistan law allows its leaders to authorize foreign nations to enter it and assassinate people living there. (Perhaps the Pakistan government does have this power--but I haven't heard anyone, anywhere say that.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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well, blahblah
What then would make the assassination legal in your view?
How would you prefer that everything should have been handled in advance to insure that no one can claim it was illegal afterwards?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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dmt,
i apologize for using the language i did. i should have asked you if your kids and family were in the twin towers on 9/11 whether you would really give a sh#t if it were legal or not, whether you would even engage in said debate. but you already answered that question....
Actually it is a legitimate debate, because we might not like other countries entering out country in what they determine to be a war. How would you feel if say Venezuala sent a team in to capture someone they thought was at war with them?
John, if we were knowingly harboring someone who made it their goal to terrorize another soverign state, and we did not do anything about it, then by all means that country has the "right" to capture or kill said terrorist (despite how legal it might be, and despite the fact that they might lose their people in the process). i like to think that comparing us to pakistan is not a fair comparison. call me patriotic or whatever.
I don't want to be too repetitive, but I do think it's important to point out that the assassination of Osama was likely illegal even if the government of Pakistan gave its tacit OK.
the only thing that might border on illegal is entering another country to take him out. congress passed a law i think on 9/18/2001.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Time to edit the Script to Block Posters and add one more name!
Edit: ahhhh, much better. The rest of you, carry on (and ignore him!)
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I don't want to be too repetitive, but I do think it's important to point out that the assassination of Osama was likely illegal even if the government of Pakistan gave its tacit OK.
That would depend on the internal laws of Pakistan, which I don't think any of us know jack about. But I'm skeptical that Pakistan law allows its leaders to authorize foreign nations to enter it and assassinate people living there. (Perhaps the Pakistan government does have this power--but I haven't heard anyone, anywhere say that.)
Could you equivocate some more please? I don't think I got quite enough of equivocating out of this statement. haha
Lets see.. it might be illegal because you doubt that Pakistans laws allows it leaders to okay this mission, but you don't know. Okie dokie.
And when was it decided that this was definitely an assassination? Didn't Obama say that he ordered them to try and capture Bin laden? So who decided it was definitely an assassination? Not that I don't think that there was some of that going on, but since we are haggling legalities.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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well, blahblah
What then would make the assassination legal in your view?
How would you prefer that everything should have been handled in advance to insure that no one can claim it was illegal afterwards?
How about a declaration of war from Congress, and notification to Pakistan that we would attack foreign combatants harbored in Pakistan if they did not expel those combatants or turn them over to US?
Maybe that would create more problems than it would solve, I don't know. I'm sure many governments think that laws are pesky things, best not to take them too seriously sometimes :)
I know Nixon felt that way, seems like Dubya did too. And Obama.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001), one of two resolutions commonly known as "AUMF" (the other being "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002"), was a joint resolution passed by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001, authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on September 11, 2001. The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the September 11th attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups. The AUMF was signed by President George W. Bush on September 18, 2001.
i posted this earlier.
granite is right. we could have bombed the sh#t out of paki as it could be construed that they were harboring the bastard. no laws broken on our side. paki is lucky that we didnt invade them after 9/11, emotions were running pretty high is you recall. whish is partially why we all did not have more to say about the invasion of iraq. which is also why this OBL mission reflects so positively on the Obama's judgement in how we pulled this thing off.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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IMO torture (e.g. waterboarding repeatedly) should be illegal. But in extraordinary circumstances it may be needed and the president can pardon the person if it was justified.
I don't know if OBL was assassinated or killed trying to escape capture. Probably the only guy knows for sure is the guy who pulled the trigger. I'm not so sure if assassinations should be illegal or not. OBL, HItler, etc. Shouldn't we take the really evil dudes out?
If it was illegal to go in an kill OBL, if he was assassinated, if he shouldn't have been buried at sea, I really don't care. I'm just glad the guy is gone, no lengthy trail, no gravesite, no asking permission to enter Pakistan and tipping him off. Done and done!
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Kirkwood, CA
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"We have weapons of mass destruction. Trust me." - Bush
We just killed Bin Laden. Trust me." Obama
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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let me try this again,
The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001), one of two resolutions commonly known as "AUMF" (the other being "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002"), was a joint resolution passed by the United States Congress on September 14, 2001, authorizing the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the attacks on September 11, 2001. The authorization granted the President the authority to use all "necessary and appropriate force" against those whom he determined "planned, authorized, committed or aided" the September 11th attacks, or who harbored said persons or groups. The
not sure what part of this confuses people. this language can be used to cover everything. no american laws violated. i dont know about international, but then hey, they can see our lawyer.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Debating whether it was legal or not is a different debate than whether we should have broken the law or not. The US seems to be breaking all kinds of laws anyway (drone strikes in Waziristan is more or less the same sovereignty offense)
And some people want to distinguish between international law and US law. Only matters a little, presidents now break laws with impunity. (and nobody seems to think congress needs to declare a war unless we plan on nuking the world)
But whatever, The US DOES harbor people other nations consider terrorist. Let me repost from a few pages back for those who missed it
Regarding the legality of us going in a sovereign nation to get Bin Laden and that being legal.
For those that say yes, what would you say if Cuba or Panama sent a hit squad into the US and killed Luis Posada, the terrorist who downed a Cuban Airliner among other things, and whom the US had been harboring?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
Ok?
Now, it could well be that we cleared this raid with the Pakistanis and they just politically don't want to admit it. I already heard one Pak official say they were working with us on it and yet others deny it. We don't get the truth but what politics demand be said.
It has been pointed out that Pakistan (being a democracy) probably doesn't have anyone legally entitled to allow us to kill somebody on their soil. Good point.
We're breaking lots of laws anyway these days, the real question is which laws could we not get away with breaking. As long as Obama does get a BJ in the oval office, he's probably safe.
Peace
karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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John, if we were knowingly harboring someone who made it their goal to terrorize another soverign state, and we did not do anything about it, then by all means that country has the "right" to capture or kill said terrorist (despite how legal it might be, and despite the fact that they might lose their people in the process). i like to think that comparing us to pakistan is not a fair comparison. call me patriotic or whatever.
The reason I question these type actions is that I want to fully understand everything that we are opening ourselves up to. I think that is the same motivation that drives DMT. Who gets to decide what a terrorist act is? Wasn't Salman Rushdie considered to be a type of terrorist by some Muslims? If he was in America, should we have turned him over to whatever country demanded him?
When we do acts like these, there are all sorts of repercussions. One is that it opens us up to others saying they should be allowed to do the same thing. It ends up justifying their illegal action. At least in their minds. This is why Blahblah is focusing on the legality.
Maybe we are a country with higher morals, so we are better then Pakistan, but when we break international laws, then we open ourselves up to all kinds of attacks.
What if Pakistan went crazy? What if they launched a nuclear attack against us? Sure we would wipe them out, but what city would you be willing to give up just to assert our right to go after terrorist? SF, New York.. What if their missile went off course and took out Yosemite? Would you be willing to risk losing Yosemite just to get someone like Bin Laden?
These are just rhetorical questions, but the reality is that pakistan does have nukes, and all of our actions will have repercussions. When we place ourselves above the law, we open the door for other countries to make their own interpretations.
And I am not saying that we absolutely broke international law. I think a case could be made that we didn't based on what Obama said about trying to capture him.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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The legality of our incursion into Pakistan is probably murky as hell given international law and the fact that Pakistan has been letting us do all kinds of things in there for the last 10 years. Anyone in this thread who can pretend to know if it was actually illegal or not is a moron.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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good point John.
HD, dude, where are all the LEB tears? what happened to her? i can hear her now on this thread weaving in some cat story or something innane.
karl, good point. we ought to hand that person over to Cuba. we have treated cuba like crap and frankly, i dont get it. our moral high ground is a slippery slope at times and hopefully it wont crumble into the sea.
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Gene
climber
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Reuters has posted pictures of three men killed during the raid. OBL not included.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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They'll leak the photos, just wait. Best of both worlds. Maybe he got so stoked by owning Trump on the Birther thing that he want's the conspiracy doubters to get worked up over whether Bin Laden was actually killed or not, before he releases the long form photos of him.
(and he said the doubters wouldn't be convinced anyway)
Personally, I accept that I'm never going to know what's true in politics anymore.
Obama is on a roll. He's got LEB locked up in Gitmo.
Peace
karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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ron the beef is feedin the fish!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Obama is not releasing the pictures of dead Osama?
Send Trump to negotiate their release!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Hawkeye, does that translate to they can not be tried "and"
they did not commit murder?
sure, they can be tried. i suggest that whomever wants to do so file the papers in NYC on 9/11/2011. then perhaps we will have another court case of violence.
since dmt did not like playing maybe you will.
some dude kills your mom. he then threatens to kill your dad and will not stop unitl your entire family is killed. if you go after him and he resists and you kill him is it murder? not where i was raised it isnt.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Fatty said I've forgotten to put you on the list of those crying over this event. I'm so proud that President Obama violated international law to eliminate that Enemy Combatant.
Uh what? Who is crying man? Chalk up another to point for you completely misunderstanding reality. I guess you can add one more for not actually reading my post. You can keep them in the same drawer as your "we are invading Syria like any minute now" and your "Obama has no idea how to handle foreign policy and will get us all killed" predictions. Don't get them confused with your Nostradamus award for "I basically know everyone in the Mossad as well as half of the Knesset and they are telling me that Israel will bomb Iran in the next month" posts.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Obama owes thanks, and an apology, to CIA interrogators
By Marc A. Thiessen, Wednesday, May , 9:26 AM
Wash Post
In normal times, the officials who uncovered the intelligence that led us to Osama bin Laden would get a medal. In the Obama administration, they have been given subpoenas.
On his second day in office, Obama shut down the CIA’s high-value interrogation program. His Justice Department then reopened criminal investigations into the conduct of CIA interrogators — inquiries that had been closed years before by career prosecutors who concluded that there were no crimes to prosecute. In a speech at the National Archives, Obama eviscerated the men and women of the CIA, accusing them of “torture” and declaring that their work “did not advance our war and counterterrorism efforts — they undermined them.”
Now, it turns out that the very CIA interrogators whose lives Obama turned upside down played a critical role in what the president rightly calls “the most significant achievement to date in our nation’s effort to defeat al Qaeda.”
It is time for a public apology.
U.S officials have acknowledged that the key piece of intelligence that led the CIA to bin Laden — information on the al-Qaeda leader’s principal courier — came from detainees in CIA custody. According to a senior administration official, “detainees in the post-9/11 period flagged for us individuals who may have been providing direct support to bin Laden and his deputy, [Ayman al-] Zawahiri, after their escape from Afghanistan. One courier in particular had our constant attention. Detainees gave us . . . his nickname and identified him as . . . a protege of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.” The nickname was Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. KSM was taken into CIA custody in 2003 and refused to talk. Only after undergoing enhanced interrogation techniques did he confirm knowing al-Kuwaiti.
The following year, another senior al-Qaeda operative named Hassan Ghul was captured. U.S. officials say he told the CIA that al-Kuwaiti was close to KSM’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi — a revelation officials described as the “linchpin.” In May 2005, al-Libi was finally taken into CIA custody. After being subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques, he provided credible information on al-Qaeda’s courier networks, how they chose and employed couriers, and specific individuals. But he became evasive when asked about al-Kuwaiti. Some have suggested this shows his interrogation did not work. Quite the opposite, this was a red flag that led the agency to recognize al-Kuwaiti’s importance and focus its attention on identifying and hunting him down. It took years to actually find al-Kuwaiti and follow him to bin Laden’s compound. But without the information the CIA elicited from these high-value terrorists, the agency would not have known to look for him in the first place.
Already, critics are desperately trying to play down the CIA interrogation program’s role in the bin Laden operation. Many are pointing to an Associated Press report that KSM “did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.”
This statement demonstrates ignorance of how CIA interrogations worked. Interrogators would never have asked about the names of couriers during waterboarding. As I explain in my book, “Courting Disaster,” enhanced techniques were not used to gain intelligence; they were used to elicit cooperation. According to former CIA director Mike Hayden, as enhanced techniques were applied, CIA interrogators would ask detainees questions to which the interrogators already know the answers — allowing them to judge whether the detainees had reached a level of compliance. “They are designed to create a state of cooperation, not to get specific truthful answers to a specific question,” Hayden said.
Once interrogators determined a terrorist had become cooperative, the techniques stopped and traditional, non-coercive methods of questioning were used. Moreover, the use of enhanced techniques wasn’t needed for two-thirds of the detainees in CIA custody . Just the experience of being brought into CIA custody — the “capture shock,” arrival at a sterile location, the isolation, the fact that they did not know where they were and that no one else knew they were there — was enough to persuade most of them to cooperate.
Thanks to President Obama, this program, which helped lead us to bin Laden, is no longer part of America’s counterterrorism arsenal. Indeed, outside of the war zones of Afghanistan and Iraq, there have been no reported U.S. detentions of high-value terrorists since Obama took office. Earlier this year, Umar Patek, the highest-ranking terrorist captured alive at this point in the Obama administration, was taken into custody by Pakistani authorities. Patek had traveled from Southeast Asia to Abbottabad — the same place where bin Laden was hiding. Coincidence? What was Patek doing in Abbottabad? With whom did he meet and what did they discuss? He should be in CIA custody answering such questions.
The time has come for Obama to restore the CIA interrogation program that made bin Laden’s demise possible — and to instruct Eric Holder to end his witch hunt against the heroes who helped lead us to bin Laden’s lair. That is the least Obama can do for the men and women responsible for the crowning achievement of his presidency. They don’t deserve a special prosecutor, Mr. President. They deserve the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Who is this shutupandpull character?
dunno but we should all chip in and buy him a new keyboard 'cause his capslock key is clearly broken.
ftw.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Rumor is that the SEALs involved in Sunday's mission are back in the U.S. at Andrews Air Force Base outside Washington for final debriefing on the raid.
“The team will likely be invited to the White House to meet the president and attend a private, small ceremony acknowledging their grand
achievement.“
No one will know, pictures taken but we will not see them, they will go home see their family, could be they will go to the ceremony, who knows? Until operation becomes declassified we will really won’t know?
Salute: No Fuc#ing slack
Wonder if Uncle Bush will attend, Cheney? Look for the Press on this one. National Enquire might get first crack.
Oh! and Fattie [Walter Mitty of ST] funny you wait till Israel makes the correct statement to change your view. Noticed at least you are reading better analysis with FA. Still will take years to get into the loop.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Shutupandpull...Why do you hate America!?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apparently Fox News is blaming incompetent liberals for failing to find Obama faster. "He's been in the West Wing all this time", they report.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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illegal military action.
You haven't proved its illegal. And stop trying to set yourself up to be able to justify to lies the Bush admin told to get us into Iraq.
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Gene
climber
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If the raid was illegal, what’s the crime other than entry into Pakistan without a proper visa?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Do you guys seriously contend that landing a military force in a foriegn country and assasinating someone is legal under international law?
Folks are confusing what they think was "right" with what is lawful. It might be right to steal bread for your hungry family, but it's still stealing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Cross posted:
Healyje: So, if some other country determined that Rumsfeld was a war criminal and their justice system ruled it was 'legal' to apprehend him by staging a raid on his home in Maryland we'd be ok with that?
Seems a bit of a shame to confuse national pride, executive perogative, and strategic security concerns with what's 'legal'. It's a little sad to see them bothering with the charade of ruling this action 'legal' under expanded executive powers the Bush administration pushed through. The more 'imperial' of those powers were given cover by bankrupt thinkers like Yoo and an activist judicial majority inherited from the Nixon whitehouse who came up defending executive power and explicitly appointed to support it.
Succumbing to, and rolling with, the lure of these abusive expansions to executive power will go down as one of Obama's chief failings as a president and simply points out the inherent risks associated when the balance of power is inappropriately tipped to one branch over the others. The founders did not intend for us to have an imperial executive.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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US helicopters and agents flew into a soverign country without permission and killed our #1 Enemy Combatant. That is an illegal act under international law.
You haven't proven this to be true. You don't have access to back channel agreements.
Back channel agreements are just one of the reasons I rarely believe half of what any government says.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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If the raid was illegal, what’s the crime other than entry into Pakistan without a proper visa?
I don't know Pakistani law (and I've yet to see a post from anyone who claims to know anything about Pakistani law).
But just to think about it conceptually, if the shoe were on the other foot and Pakistan sent a hit squad into Colorado, the hit squad members and those aiding and abetting them would have committed the crime of murder in the first degree under Colorado law:
//Murder in the First Degree (18-3-102)
A person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if:
(a) After deliberation and with the intent to cause the death of a person other than himself, he causes the death of that person or of another person . . .//
As I've noted above, this wouldn't change if Obama and/or Gov. Hickenlooper gave a tacit OK to the Pakistani hit squad.
I admit it's tricky to apply normal criminal law concepts to acts undertaken by governments.
But don't a lot of posters on here want Dubya brought up on all sorts of crimes?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Is there really a governor Hickenlooper?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Fatty said US helicopters and agents flew into a soverign country without permission and killed our #1 Enemy Combatant. That is an illegal act under international law. Don't worry, my friends in Mossad do it all the time.
Don't you all know by now that nothing gets done in Washington without Fatty's say so? If Fatty said it was illegal then it was illegal.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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DMT.. naw.. I have known all along that our government pulls shady things. And I never thought Obama was some righteous man, contrary to what the right keeps trying to say that I must believe.
Shady is one thing. What the Bush Admin did with all of its lies is a completely different thing.
Prove that Obama didn't ask our troops to try and capture him, and you up the ante a bit. Prove even further that we had no back channel agreement with Pakistan and that takes it another step.
Bush is still a thousand steps ahead of obama in the ugliness of politics contest.
Obama has yet to start a war based on lies.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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MH: Absolutely!
Hick is something of a Colorado celebrity, made a fortune in brew pubs and re-gentrifying the former warehouse district of Denver into "Lodo," then became mayor of Denver, then gov. of Colorado.
He's a bit liberal for my tastes and apparently has been involved in some (arguably) shady business deals (at least according his detractors), but most people think Hick is a stand-up guy.
For the record, I do not believe he would authorize Pakistani hit squads to operate in Colorado, but if he did, he'd probably have a damn good reason.
You can read his entry on Wikipedia if you're curious (I pasted from it but deleted it as it went on and on).
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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U.S. troops were just 800 yards from Osama Bin Laden's Abbottabad compound during a training exercise in Pakistan three years ago, it has emerged.
The embarrassing proof that some of America's best military men were so close to the world's most wanted terrorist was found buried in diplomatic cables released by whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks.
Mention of Abbottabad is sparse in the cables - but when it is, the significance is chilling, particularly as other information indicates the U.S. may have been on the path that would lead them to Bin Laden as early as 2008.
The WikiLeaks documents reveal, a meeting was held in Washington three years ago between then-U.S. deputy secretary of state, John Negroponte, and Pakistan's foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1383074/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-US-trained-Pakistani-troops-hunt-Al-Qaeda-near-compound.html#ixzz1LQMbNp9b
Let the games begin.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Well prove it DMT. The bush admin has already been caught in lies. If you know something, then state it.
The thing that bothers me the most is the nature of some of the things people believe about liberals. Such as..
If you are against a war, then you must be against all use of force. That is nonsense. We use force to apprehend suspected criminals. Some times those suspects die. I have no problem with that. It is a power and we have courts to try and keep that power in check.
What I didn't like about this case with Bin Laden is that I have no idea if an arrest warrant was ever issued for him. If one was, then hopefully that shows that there was enough evidence gathered to convince a judge that he might be guilty. And yes.. I understand that some judges are easy to convince and others are stricter, but at least there is this check of power.
If we went to arrest Bin Laden, then I have no problem with him ending up dead if he resisted. If we strictly went to assassinate him, then I would have a problem. Though as karl points out, probably less of a problem then the current way we fight terrorism, with indiscriminate bombs and such.
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Gene
climber
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I can't say Obama lied in his speech, however applying philosophy
it appears to commit falacies. What is the evidence for his decision?
Is it Klimmers?
Priceless!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Shortly after OBL's trip to Davy Jone's locker, the commander of the Kearsarge declared a swim call.
Makes sense as the ship was stopped and they'd already thrown in perfectly good shark repellent.
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Gene
climber
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Back channel agreements? Ya think?
US choppers flew, what 130 miles?, into Paki territory and back, apparently at will. In daylight. Pakistan is a nuclear power that has essentially been at war with India since partition. The Paki nuke facilities are within a 45 minute drive – not flight – of where OBL was found. Convince me that someone in authority in Pakistan didn’t (1) know about the raid and (2) cause the radar screens to be ‘dimmed’ at the appropriate time.
Upon arrival at the target, located in a ‘garrison town’ according to the media, one of the choppers crashed. A helicopter going down tends to result in a few 911, or Pakistani equivalent, calls to the local cops. The assault team was on site for 40 minutes. Guns blazing. And nobody on the ground noticed?
The raid was not the first time the US violated Pakistani ‘sovereignty.’ The US has been tossing Predators w/ Hellfire missiles into their country for years. (http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/drones); Tepid protests are occasionally put out for local consumption.
Pakistan is complicit in allowing US forces into their country and in this raid. If indeed Pakistan was caught unaware of the raid, it doesn’t reflect well on the competence of its military or intelligence service. To which we have given billions. That would be the crime.
g
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Gene raises an interesting question. Where were the helicopters flown from? Abbottabad is a long way inland (~1,000 km), so probably not off the deck of a carrier. From Afghanistan? A base somewhere in Pakistan? Likewise, what did the various levels in the Pakistani government know about what was happening? Did they scramble jets as a face-saving gesture? If the jets were in the air at the same time as the helicopters, and anywhere close, why didn't they shoot?
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WBraun
climber
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130 miles into Pakistan were the so called Bin laden was hiding.
What a fricken joke.
Now we know for real the real Bin Laden was never there.
America got/is owned .......
Suckers!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Obama is an international criminal, just like Bush and Cheney. Or, are they not????
You know what jeff.. You are a tiresome human being. You are exactly how evil wins. You wear people down so they just give up.
I give up. Bring back Dick Cheney.. your hero who you say is a nice guy.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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just got
back from
starbukcs.
had the new
special
beverage.
osama bin
latte.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DMT, done deal.
edit:
PBS NIGHTLINE had a pretty good show on last night with regards to the Taliban. they interviewed them in Pakistan. one of them said that if pakistan wanted to, that all teh Talibs could be rounded up within 24 hours and that winters are good in pakistan and then they head over the mountains in the summer to wage war.
so yes, by our sheltered western standards with osama bin LATTE's available on the corner, these Talibs seem like a bad bunch. now put yourself in their shoes. many have nothing. no future, barely enough food, they have nothgin but their religion that they have latched onto. war is thier only way to achieve some meaningful thing in their life, that and their religious beliefs.
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dirtbag
climber
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Omar has probably been causing us more problems the last year or so.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I'm growing more skeptical of this whole thing too.
Release the pic. The others have been released. Of deaders on the scene.
This may have been a collusion between Pak and the US.
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Gene
climber
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Hey BES1'st,
Gene, around the same time I saw Micheal C's complaint I also
saw the supeonad transcripts of the conversations directing
flight traffic?
Can you help me out about what Micheal C's complaint is about? Got a link for me?
Also, you mean transcripts that were under subpoena, right?
g
EDIT: Prior post edited.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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MH
160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment [Airborne] provided the NH-60’s hilos or choppers, looks like the one that they blew up was modified or could have been a CIA one. Also looking or for cover could have been a RQ-170 Beast of Kandahar to help jam Pakistani air defenses. They were apparently scrambled during the operation.
*Note pilots should be awarded as well on this mission but were not. They will be since they were or took part.
It will all come out. Klimmer and Fatty since he has connections should have all the info.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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despite recent events, my cookies turned out nearly perfect. Ain't America Great?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Gene wrote
"US choppers flew, what 130 miles?, into Paki territory and back, apparently at will. In daylight. Pakistan is a nuclear power that has essentially been at war with India since partition. The Paki nuke facilities are within a 45 minute drive – not flight – of where OBL was found. Convince me that someone in authority in Pakistan didn’t (1) know about the raid and (2) cause the radar screens to be ‘dimmed’ at the appropriate time."
now the Pakistanis are going to have all these conspiracy theories that their government knew while claiming they didn't. Inside job!
The Pakistanis probably already believe it, and it looks just as bad if the government didn't know and it happened under their nose, like 9-11.
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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US choppers flew, what 130 miles?, into Paki territory and back, apparently at will. In daylight.
Gene,
explosions were heard in the compound around 1:00 am. they flew at night. a chinook is capable of 196 mph and they flew from Jalalabad a distance of 160 miles. One hour of flight, at night.
paki air defenses pointed towards india. not to mention but someone else did that we can probably jam the crap out of them and do all manner of mischief and even possibly sneak by their defenses.
you guys are crazy if you think the US told Pakistan anything. think of the current situation, what is good about this for Pakistan? nothing.
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Gene
climber
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Plausible deniability. It's to Pakistan's benefit.
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Gene
climber
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Hawkeye,
I stand corrected on the local time of the attack.
Thanks,
Gene
EDIT: Let me restate the premise of my prior post. If there exists the capability for the US to go that far into another country undetected and shoot up the place, the US has some amazing technological abilities for force projection.
EDIT of EDIT: If a radar system is jammed, doesn't that tell the radar operator something?
Also, having looked at the Reuters pictures of the crashed helicopter, which seems a tad small to be carrying an assault team, I admit I have no idea what I'm talking about.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Karl
[2]“cause the radar screens to be ‘dimmed’ at the appropriate time."
RQ-170 would have done this since it is used not only for strike missions but for electronic warfare. Pakistan probably will not say or bring it up since they are too embarrassed.
I wasn’t there so making an educated guess which means nothing.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Let’s see “The Wedding” over, Japan nuclear disaster out of the picture and no word of Wikileaks founder Julian Assange in the news anymore.
Wonder by June/July if this will all fade as well? I can see it now: election 2012 coming up, questions to Repubs/Demos: Abortion, Gay Rights, the killing of Bin Laden and how miscommunications failed after the kill with “How you if you are elected president would have done”. First three questions they will have to answer from commentator.
Trump will have his campaign slogan demanding “Where’s Bin Laden’s death certificate”. When do we want it? NOW! What do we want? Bin Ladens”s death certificate. When do we want it? NOW!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Why not at least post the pictures of the sea burial off the Carl Vinson???
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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If anyone dared question the invasion of Afghanistan .... for the sake of ONE MAN, AS I DID AT THAT TIME?
That's like questioning why we invaded Germany for ONE MAN-- Adolf Hiter.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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I totally agree with Sarah , hot buns , Palin...Quit pussy footing around and show that dead towel head....The indignity of not showing Bin Laden with half his face missing...! How can Obama be such a wuss....Jeeze....!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Because there are doubts, Dr.F. No body. No photos. Only the word of the "gov't".
Do you trust your gov't with sh#t like this? What is the harm of releasing the pic? Inflame an already maddened radical sect? Pretty weak.
Also, if it does enrage them so, it may draw out the real psychos for further ops.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Obama should only release the pics of Bin Laden if Palin post pics of herself naked.
Which would you rather see?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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EDIT: Let me restate the premise of my prior post. If there exists the capability for the US to go that far into another country undetected and shoot up the place, the US has some amazing technological abilities for force projection.
EDIT of EDIT: If a radar system is jammed, doesn't that tell the radar operator something?
to your first point, our defense budget better buy a whole lot of really cool sh#t or we are not getting our moneys worth. (sarcasm)
good point on the second, who knows how we send in drones all the time.
in terms of Paki collusion. listen to the news. they had no clue, they have no story and they look like idiots. they never would have signed up to this knowingly without coming out looking good, never. its all about their honor.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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How do we know that Palin is not some evil Al Qaeda robot?
There are doubts. No body. No photos. Only her "word."
Do you trust her "word" sh#t like this? What is the harm of releasing the pic? Inflame some psycho? Pretty weak.
Also, if it does enrage them so, it may draw out the real psychos for further ops.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Bluering..How do we know you were bouldering with a gay black man...let's see some pics...
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Gene
climber
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Hawkeye,
You had me to listen to the news.
Bottom line is that we will never know the down and dirty about any of this.
Best to you!
g
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Amen Dr F..make em all get a license which will balance the budget....
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Nothing about this is going to be easy. It's a multi front war, with no specific leader and you can't really define winning without a specific target to neutralize. It's not possible to "win" without a goal.
Terrorism wins by scaring their target countries to the point that they cannot function or operate and where they will go broke fighting shadows. Fear is a killer so in order for them not to win we cannot act afraid. Sadly we love drama and this fear thing is good for elections. We are letting them win by allowing 9/11 to cause two wars, etc.
Now for some of you that think Arabs are the same and thus are equal threat is like calling all Caucasians a.k.a. German and Jews during WWII the same. It's not and we must be very diplomatic about this... We don't want to make ourselves their common enemy. That will be extremely stupid.
Now about Pakistan... Oh what an unstable mess that we've funded over the years. It's nuclear, divided and without strong leadership. They would really love a common cause to unite them. Please God let that not be us. They are like a five year old with a machine gun. We need to get someone in power there that can help change that trend. India would love that, we would love that but heck... When you have a country that powerful and poor, it makes them willing to do crazy things. We need to get their economy going in order for "stability and peace" to work. Sadly we can't even get that going here so... I hear a ticking time bomb.
AFS
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WBraun
climber
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Who knows?
Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.
Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.
Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.
Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.
Marfan syndrome is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.
“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.
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jstan
climber
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Really incredible that anyone could think this was a simple operation requiring no thought. Astonishing. If this is typical of American thought - this is the end. We won't be able to hold our ground against more advanced peoples.
The helicopter force apparently went in via nap-of-the-earth flight, nearly at ground level. With present gear this can be done at night at very elevated speed (on fighter jets). You wouldn't believe. The helicopters would have been doing 200 mph right on the deck. In terrain with any relief, radar would have been of little use detecting them. Night vision capability in the PAF's F-16 jets is not clear. Circa 1984 and up to recent times their jets used the Lantirn system working in the LWIR. That MCT system provides data for both navigation and armaments targeting. The detectors were a bitch to make. Around 1997 Raytheon was designing the DB110( dual band- visible and MWIR[3-5 µm InSb]). These units were being retrofitted to PAF F-16's starting in June 2010. At least the oblique imaging is done by push broom instead of scanning. Movement of the aircraft itself drives the development of the image. This was the way images were generated in the 50's and early 60's interestingly enough.
So we don't know what equipment was on potential interceptors. But think for a moment. Does Pakistan really want to shoot down US aircraft? Firing would have been insane. If their jets were scrambled they would have been told it was for reconaisance only. The next question is whether Obama decided there would be fighter cover. It would be an insult to do this.
From what I have seen of him, he would have specified no fighter cover. We are allies.
Shouldn't have had to sleep on it! Holy christ!
A staggering level of ignorance.
Unless we fix our system of public education we won't become a bananna republic.
We are headed for the stone age!
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monolith
climber
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Bluering, some pics of the sea burial have been released.
And as Obama said, releasing pics of the body will do little to ease the doubts. Conspiracy droids will find 10 things wrong with it and suck in the gullible.
And whatdya know, a cdroid just showed up below.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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WB,
Thanks for posting that.
Here is the link . . .
Top US Government Insider: Bin Laden Died In 2001, 9/11 A False Flag
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html
Also . . .
Alex talks with Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, the U.S. government insider who said last week that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job. Pieczenik was used by Tom Clancy to base his character Jack Ryan from Patriot Games on. Alex also talks with author, researcher and radio host Webster Tarpley. Alex continues coverage of the Osama bin Laden assassination hoax and the release of photographs that will purport to show Bin Laden's bullet-riddled corpse. He also covers other news and takes your calls.
http://www.infowars.com/infowars.asx
This is very important I'm posting the entire article . . .
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html
Top US Government Insider: Bin Laden Died In 2001, 9/11 A False Flag
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations Steve R. Pieczenik says he is prepared to tell a federal grand jury the name of a top general who told him directly 9/11 was a false flag attack
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.
Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.
Recruited by Lawrence Eagleburger as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Management, Pieczenik went on to develop, “the basic tenets for psychological warfare, counter terrorism, strategy and tactics for transcultural negotiations for the US State Department, military and intelligence communities and other agencies of the US Government,” while also developing foundational strategies for hostage rescue that were later employed around the world.
Pieczenik also served as a senior policy planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker and worked on George W. Bush’s election campaign against Al Gore. His record underscores the fact that he is one of the most deeply connected men in intelligence circles over the past three decades plus.
The character of Jack Ryan, who appears in many Tom Clancy novels and was also played by Harrison Ford in the popular 1992 movie Patriot Games, is also based on Steve Pieczenik.
Back in April 2002, over nine years ago, Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.
Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.
Marfan syndrome is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.
“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.
“He was already very sick from marfan syndrome and he was already dying, so nobody had to kill him,” added Pieczenik, stating that Bin Laden died shortly after 9/11 in his Tora Bora cave complex.
“Did the intelligence community or the CIA doctor up this situation, the answer is yes, categorically yes,” said Pieczenik, referring to Sunday’s claim that Bin Laden was killed at his compound in Pakistan, adding, “This whole scenario where you see a bunch of people sitting there looking at a screen and they look as if they’re intense, that’s nonsense,” referring to the images released by the White House which claim to show Biden, Obama and Hillary Clinton watching the operation to kill Bin Laden live on a television screen.
“It’s a total make-up, make believe, we’re in an American theater of the absurd….why are we doing this again….nine years ago this man was already dead….why does the government repeatedly have to lie to the American people,” asked Pieczenik.
“Osama Bin Laden was totally dead, so there’s no way they could have attacked or confronted or killed Osama Bin laden,” said Pieczenik, joking that the only way it could have happened was if special forces had attacked a mortuary.
Pieczenik said that the decision to launch the hoax now was made because Obama had reached a low with plummeting approval ratings and the fact that the birther issue was blowing up in his face.
“He had to prove that he was more than American….he had to be aggressive,” said Pieczenik, adding that the farce was also a way of isolating Pakistan as a retaliation for intense opposition to the Predator drone program, which has killed hundreds of Pakistanis.
“This is orchestrated, I mean when you have people sitting around and watching a sitcom, basically the operations center of the White House, and you have a president coming out almost zombie-like telling you they just killed Osama Bin Laden who was already dead nine years ago,” said Pieczenik, calling the episode, “the greatest falsehood I’ve ever heard, I mean it was absurd.”
Dismissing the government’s account of the assassination of Bin Laden as a “sick joke” on the American people, Pieczenik said, “They are so desperate to make Obama viable, to negate the fact that he may not have been born here, any questions about his background, any irregularities about his background, to make him look assertive….to re-elect this president so the American public can be duped once again.”
Pieczenik’s assertion that Bin Laden died almost ten years ago is echoed by numerous intelligence professionals as well as heads of state across the world.
Bin Laden, “Was used in the same way that 9/11 was used to mobilize the emotions and feelings of the American people in order to go to a war that had to be justified through a narrative that Bush junior created and Cheney created about the world of terrorism,” stated Pieczenik.
During his interview with the Alex Jones Show yesterday, Pieczenik also asserted he was directly told by a prominent general that 9/11 was a stand down and a false flag operation, and that he is prepared to go to a grand jury to reveal the general’s name.
“They ran the attacks,” said Pieczenik, naming Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Stephen Hadley, Elliott Abrams, and Condoleezza Rice amongst others as having been directly involved.
“It was called a stand down, a false flag operation in order to mobilize the American public under false pretenses….it was told to me even by the general on the staff of Wolfowitz – I will go in front of a federal committee and swear on perjury who the name was of the individual so that we can break it open,” said Pieczenik, adding that he was “furious” and “knew it had happened”.
“I taught stand down and false flag operations at the national war college, I’ve taught it with all my operatives so I knew exactly what was done to the American public,” he added.
Pieczenik re-iterated that he was perfectly willing to reveal the name of the general who told him 9/11 was an inside job in a federal court, “so that we can unravel this thing legally, not with the stupid 9/11 Commission that was absurd.”
Pieczenik explained that he was not a liberal, a conservative or a tea party member, merely an American who is deeply concerned about the direction in which his country is heading.
Watch the full interview with Dr. Pieczenik below.
Wow. Stunned. Is all I can say.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Really incredible that anyone could think this was a simple operation requiring no thought. Astonishing. If this is typical of American thought - this is the end. We won't be able to hold our ground against more advanced peoples.
The helicopter force apparently went in via nap-of-the-earth flight, nearly at ground level. With present gear this can be done at night at very elevated speed (on fighter jets). You wouldn't believe. The helicopters would have been doing 200 mph right on the deck. In terrain with any relief, radar would have been of little use detecting them. Night vision capability in the PAF's F-16 jets is not clear. Circa 1984 and up to recent times their jets used the Lantirn system working in the LWIR. That MCT system provides data for both navigation and armaments targeting. The detectors were a bitch to make. Around 1997 Raytheon was designing the DB110( dual band- visible and MWIR[3-5 µm InSb]). These units were being retrofitted to PAF F-16's starting in June 2010. At least the oblique imaging is done by push broom instead of scanning. Movement of the aircraft itself drives the development of the image. This was the way images were generated in the 50's and early 60's interestingly enough.
So we don't know what equipment was on potential interceptors. But think for a moment. Does Pakistan really want to shoot down US aircraft? Firing would have been insane. If their jets were scrambled they would have been told it was for reconaisance only. The next question is whether Obama decided there would be fighter cover. It would be an insult to do this.
From what I have seen of him, he would have specified no fighter cover. We are allies.
Shouldn't have had to sleep on it! Holy christ!
A staggering level of ignorance.
Unless we fix our system of public education we won't become a bananna republic.
We are headed for the stone age!
This is way over most people's heads.
There needs to be a "Team America" animated version.
The Stone Age started in 2000 with the election of W.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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A lot of conspiracy thinking going on ....yet no one has proved that Obama did anything illegal.
I agree with Jstan...second world status for the US and then third if this way of thinking continues.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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The photo would only enrage certain radical Islamists. I have seen people with gunshot wounds to the head, the faces become unrecognizable and would only lead to doubt.
I've seen .50 caliber headshot pics too. Not pretty. But not releasing them is weird.
Imflaming radical islamists? Do they need imflaming? Really?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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What is obvious is that we don't know exactly what has happened.
There is sooooo much spin and disinfo. It's massively confusing.
I know 9-11 is a massive lie.
Because it is it seems they would have to lie massively with OBL also. He is their "Oswald."
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
But I'm willing to look at all of it.
I just don't know. I'm absorbing this latest info that WB has directed us to.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Here's something else that initially caught my query. 2 UH-60's carrying 24 guys? That is a real heavy load even for modified helos. Would they really do that? Why not 3?
And 24 SEALS? I assume that is a misrepresentation because that would be at least 4 SEAL teams all together at once with 'advisors'. CIA dudes and NSA intel guyz.
Who puts 4 SEAL teams into one op??? That seems like a lot of SEALS in one place at one time, which is overkill, even for this op. 2 SEAL teams tops could have done this, with "contractors" in tow.
It doesn't seem tight the more I look at it....
EDIT: BES1'st, the headwound would be conclusive with the spec ops preferred weapon sidearm... .45 ACP. A 9mm round wouldn't 'blow yer head' off probably.
That's why the special operators prefer the .45 round. One shot, yer dead.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai.
Is there any evidence, outside of this individual, to confirm that statement? Otherwise, we're just taking his word for it. Which is exactly your complaint in the first place, that we're just taking the government that their word.
If you're going to make that argument, it gets pretty complicated. For example, your hypothesis would stipulate that the CIA has been making Bin Laden tapes over the past decade.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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BES1'st, the 9mm round is higher velocity and smaller. It's a penetrating round, with high-capacity magazine capability.
The .45 round is a blunt, slower round. It doesn't really go through you, like a 9mm. It knocks you down and leaves a big wound. It's a close combat round for dropping people in one shot. That's what it was designed for...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Those photos of the dead are revulsive. I agree with the Presidents decision not to release photos of OBL
This from: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...ad-report-says
Islamabad - Pakistan media reported Wednesday that a 12-year-old daughter of Osama bin Laden has said that she was present when her father was killed by the US troops.
The Dawn newspaper said the unnamed girl told officials of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that she witnessed the killing of bin Laden.
'Osama bin Laden's teenage daughter witnessed her father's death in the compound in Abbottabad according to an ISI official,' the paper said.
But it did not provide details of the killing or the struggle with the US troops before he was shot dead.
Bin Laden's daughter is the only person who has confirmed the death of the al-Qaeda leader after the announcement by US President Barack Obama that US forces had killed the mastermind of the September 11 attacks on Monday morning in Abbottabad, 60 kilometres north-east of the capital Islamabad.
Another daily, The News, said quoting official sources that bin Laden's daughter witnessed her father's death.
'Osama bin Laden's daughter confirmed her father was captured alive and shot dead by the United States special forces during the first few minutes of the midnight operation,' the paper said.
The assertion contradicts the US claim that the Navy SEALs tried to capture bin Laden alive but killed him when he resisted.
The Dawn said that there were 17 to 18 people in the compound at the time of attack and the US soldiers took away one of the sons of bin Laden along with his body.
Pakistan's Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday that all those captured from the compound including children were being looked after and would be handed over to their countries of origin.
Another source, who claims to have seen the photos, claims the wound over OBL’s eye is an obvious exit wound suggesting he was shot from behind.
(I’m not vouching for the accuracy of this…it could be contrived trumpery from debunkers…or have some veracity. How all this will be politicized… is probably more predictable)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Just one look at fattrads picture and you can tell he was a bad ass badge man that used to beat hookers with his maglight outside Niel Youngs place.
fatty would only do that would backup.....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz wrote
Karl you have been reported to the FBI watch dog list.
WTF is that supposed to mean? A troll or for real, and why?
Did you feel I might be a terrorist threat? Like I'm a violent guy?
Get straight with your community here Coz. You were already out of line questioning my patriotism.
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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He's yankin your chain.
But ....
1078 posts and the supertopo sheeple haven't got a fukin clue.
The media hasn't got a fukin clue.
Unbelievable
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interesting that alledgedly Bin Laden's daughter confirms his death but then adds he was executed and supposed we have his son in custody?
I can understand the "need" to obscure the truth in reporting the incident to the people but why bother if eye witnesses are going to blow your credibility anyway?
Any way you look at it, it's worthy of deep thought and investigation why Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations Steve R. Pieczenik would say that Bin Laden was dead in 2001 and that 9-11 was a false flag operation. Because that has to mean one of three things
1. He might be telling the truth, cause he has a lot to lose by appearing to be a nutcase
or
2. He is putting out disinformation for some political reason
or
3. We have extremely high level and connected administration professionals with PhDs who have mostly lost their marbles.
Any of these is a considerable concern. Which is it? Guys like this have pretty secret clearance and could do a lot of damage if crazy (or sane if they are blowing the cover on something big)
Peace
karl
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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the supertopo sheeple haven't got a fukin clue.
The media hasn't got a fukin clue.
Unbelievable
Yet you know enough to know that the media has it wrong. And how exactly do you know this?
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WBraun
climber
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Port
Just for you so you can "get it".
I made post number 1078 and I said 1078 supertopo sheeple.
Now doesn't that include me as I've also have a few more in this dumb ass thread.
You must become much more observant ....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interesting Washington Post article where a CIA unit actually confesses to making at least one Fake Bin Laden Video
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/05/cia_group_had_wacky_ideas_to_d.html
FWIW
During planning for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the CIA's Iraq Operations Group kicked around a number of ideas for discrediting Saddam Hussein in the eyes of his people.
One was to create a video purporting to show the Iraqi dictator having sex with a teenage boy, according to two former CIA officials familiar with the project.
“It would look like it was taken by a hidden camera,” said one of the former officials. “Very grainy, like it was a secret videotaping of a sex session.”
The idea was to then “flood Iraq with the videos,” the former official said.
Another idea was to interrupt Iraqi television programming with a fake special news bulletin. An actor playing Hussein would announce that he was stepping down in favor of his (much-reviled) son Uday.
“I’m sure you will throw your support behind His Excellency Uday,” the fake Hussein would intone.
**The spy agency’s Office of Technical Services collaborated on the ideas, which also included inserting fake “crawls” -- messages at the bottom of the screen -- into Iraqi newscasts.
The agency actually did make a video purporting to show Osama bin Laden and his cronies sitting around a campfire swigging bottles of liquor and savoring their conquests with boys, one of the former CIA officers recalled, chuckling at the memory. The actors were drawn from “some of us darker-skinned employees,” he said.**
Eventually, “things ground to a halt,” the other former officer said, because no one could come to agreement on the projects.
They also faced strong opposition from James Pavitt, then head of the agency’s Operations Division, and his deputy, Hugh Turner, who “kept throwing darts at it.”
The ideas were patently ridiculous, said the other former agency officer.
“They came from people whose careers were spent in Latin America or East Asia” and didn’t understand the cultural nuances of the region.
“Saddam playing with boys would have no resonance in the Middle East -- nobody cares,” agreed a third former CIA official with extensive experience in the region. “Trying to mount such a campaign would show a total misunderstanding of the target. We always mistake our own taboos as universal when, in fact, they are just our taboos.”
A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, declined to confirm the accounts, or deny them.
"While I can't confirm these accounts, if these ideas were ever floated by anyone at any time, they clearly didn't go anywhere," the official said.
The reality, the former officials said, was that the agency really didn’t have enough money and expertise to carry out the projects.
“The military took them over,” said one. “They had assets in psy-war down at Ft. Bragg,” at the army’s special warfare center.
“The agency got rid of most of its non-paramilitary covert action in the 1980s, after Bill Casey died,” said the third former official. “He was a big fan of covert action, but neither Bob Gates, who succeeded him as acting [CIA] director, or any after him, wanted anything to do with it.”
“There was a flurry of activity during the first Gulf War,” the official added, “but [Gen. Norman] Schwarzkopf made it clear he had to approve everything, and he basically approved nothing, except, reluctantly at first, surrender leaflets. By the late '90s there were very few people left who knew anything about covert action or how to do it. “
The leaflets also had “unintended consequences,” the former official added.
“In the perverted logic of Iraq, the Iraqi soldiers decided they had to have a leaflet to surrender, so they fought us to get one."
According to histories of the 2003 invasion, the single most effective “information warfare” project, which originated in the Pentagon, was to send faxes and e-mails to Iraqi unit commanders as the fighting began, telling them their situation was hopeless, to round up their tanks, artillery and men, and go home.
Many did.
Even thought the link below is Alex Jones, it contains some info regarding fake Bin Laden tapes that's worth considering and refers to the Post thing above
http://www.prisonplanet.com/former-cia-officials-admit-to-faking-bin-laden-video.html
Which includes something I forgot and which nobody actually claims anymore
The latest revelations also shed light on another past Bin Laden release - a tape in which he ludicrously declared himself in league with Saddam Hussein in the weeks before the invasion of Iraq.
One of these pictures in the real Bin Laden and the other is Bin Laden as pictured on the confessing 9-11 video. Could those noses really be the same guy?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Karl that's the funniest stuff I've read today at least, thanks for posting.
Not sure what relevance if any it has to do with anything (I suppose just that US has at least considered faking crazy stuff), but it's comedy gold.
Our tax dollars at work . . .
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Another puzzle piece from the time of Saddam's capture (which some felt was faked cause pictures showed a date tree having fruit out of season among other reasons) when Former Secretary of State Madeline Albright suggested that Bush Captured Bin Laden already and was waiting for the politically correct time to announce it.
Me, I know nothing. Too much smoke and mirrors around
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/18/content_291414.htm
Would be pretty funny if Obama doesn't release photos simply to let the right bubble up with conspiracy theories regarding Bin Laden (Kinda like I'm speculating with) after seeing how the public doesn't buy them and it makes the conspiracists look nutty.
I mean, you might as well do whatever you want because if it's outrageous enough, nobody will believe it!
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I've listened to the interviews with Alex Jones now. Read the article. I find Dr. Steven Pieczenik very credible. Checked out his website. He is very well connected and an unbelieviebly brave man. Like he said, he has nothing to lose. We either fix this country now or we won't have one. Stop the lies and the deception. This massive psyops on the American people has to stop.
http://www.stevepieczenik.com/home.html
Dr. Steve Pieczenik is a critically acclaimed author of psycho-political thrillers and the co-creator of the New York Times best-selling "Tom Clancy's Op-Center" and "Tom Clancy's Net Force" book series. He is also one of the world's most experienced international crisis managers and hostage negotiators. His novels are based on his twenty years experience in resolving international crises for four U.S. administrations.
Dr. Pieczenik trained in Psychiatry at Harvard and has both an M.D. from Cornell University Medical College and a Ph.D. in International Relations from M.I.T. He was the first psychiatrist ever to receive a PhD. focusing on international relations. He served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker.
During his career as a senior State Department official, Dr. Pieczenik utilized his unique abilities and expertise to develop strategies and tactics that were instrumental in resolving major conflicts in Asia, the Middle East, Latin America, Europe and the United States.
Dr. Pieczenik was the principal International Crisis Manager and Hostage Negotiator under Secretaries Kissinger and Vance. During this time he developed conflict resolution techniques that were instrumental in saving over five hundred hostages in different terrorist episodes, including the Hanafi Moslem Seizure in Washington, DC, the TWA Croatian Hijacking, the Aldo Moro Kidnapping, the JRA Hijacking, the PLO Hijacking, and many other incidents involving terrorists such as Idi Amin, Muammar Quaddafi, Carlos, FARC, Abu Nidal and Saddam Hussein.
Dr. Pieczenik helped develop negotiation strategies for major U.S.- Soviet arms control summits under the Reagan administration. He was also involved in advising senior officials on important psycho-political dynamics and conflict mediation strategies for President Carter's successful Camp David Peace Conference. In 1991, Dr. Pieczenik was a chief architect of the Cambodian Peace Conference in Paris. He is currently an advisor to the Department of Defense.
Dr. Pieczenik has started several successful companies, employing his methodologies in various industries, including investment banking, publishing and television/film.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html
Alex talks with Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, the U.S. government insider who said last week that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job. Pieczenik was used by Tom Clancy to base his character Jack Ryan from Patriot Games on. Alex also talks with author, researcher and radio host Webster Tarpley. Alex continues coverage of the Osama bin Laden assassination hoax and the release of photographs that will purport to show Bin Laden's bullet-riddled corpse. He also covers other news and takes your calls.
http://www.infowars.com/infowars.asx
I would challenge everyone else on ST to read the articles, listen to the complete interviews and check into Dr. Steven Pieczenik and know who he is and what he has done and what he is all about.
He is a complete insider blowing the whistle. It has to stop. He told us OBL was dead in 2001 and put on ice to be brought out at the most opportune time. Well, here we are . . . the timing couldn't be better.
“if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”
2 Chronicles 7:14
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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No offense, but your ability to assess credibility is seriously in question.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Port,
You are soooooo far behind you think you're in front, but really everyone is lapping you.
Sad really.
Try catching up.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Like he said, he has nothing to lose.
exactly. He has much to gain though. He's an author trying to sell books.
and Alex Jones is a nut job.
Any other brilliant sources?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If it weren't for Klimmer, we might never have known that bin Laden is a body double for Obama, that his killing was arranged by the Illumaniti and Masons, that he was shot in 2001 by a lone gunman from a grassy knoll in Area 51, and that his body is being kept in an ark on the far side of the Moon. Only three days after it became public, too, and without a single fact to support his brilliant hypothesis.
With any luck, Glenn will cut himself on Occam's Razor sometime soon, too. Not fatally, but enough that he stops posting hypotheses that have no factual basis.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Not the first time Osama was in Pakistan
Check out the CBS news report that OBL was in the hospital in Pakistan one day before 9-11
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/eveningnews/main325887.shtml
"...Pakistan intelligence sources tell CBS News that bin Laden was spirited into a military hospital in Rawalpindi for kidney dialysis treatment.
"On that night," said a medical worker who wanted her identity protected, "they moved out all the regular staff in the urology department and sent in a secret team to replace them." She said it was treatment for a very special person and "the special team was obviously up to no good."
"They military had him surrounded," said a hospital employee who also wanted his identity masked, "and I saw the mysterious patient helped out of a car. Since that time," he said, "I have seen many pictures of the man. He is the man we know as Osama bin Laden. I also heard two army officers talking to each other. They were saying that Osama bin Laden had to be watched carefully and looked after."
....It was Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf who said in public what many suspected: that bin Laden suffers from kidney disease, saying he thinks bin Laden may be near death.
His evidence — watching the most recent video, showing a pale and haggard bin Laden, his left hand never moving. Bush administration officials admit they don't know if bin Laden is sick or even dead.
"With respect to the issue of Osama bin Laden's health, I just am...don't have any knowledge," said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
The U.S. has no way of knowing who in Pakistan's military or intelligence supported the Taliban or Osama bin Lade, maybe up to the night before Sept. 11 by arranging dialysis to keep him alive. So the U.S. may not know if those same people might help him again — perhaps to freedom. "
For those who like this stuff, this link has the transcript of a French Newspaper's article detailing how Bin Laden used the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001 (when he was wanted for other crimes) and the CIA visited him there.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111B.html
Fwiw
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/osamabinladen/a/Osama-Bin-Laden-Jokes.htm
"The news of bin Laden's death interrupted this week's episode of 'Celebrity Apprentice.' Which begs the question, how do we kill bin Laden again next Sunday?" –Conan O'Brien
"The Republicans are so happy about bin Laden they've granted President Obama full citizenship." –David Letterman
"There's already been some trouble for Osama bin Laden in the afterlife. There was a mix up and he was greeted by 72 vegans." –David Letterman
"After all the talk about caves, bin Laden was hiding in a million-dollar mansion in Pakistan. The CIA became suspicious when they learned there was a million-dollar mansion in Pakistan." –Jimmy Kimmel
"Osama bin Laden's death has been in the news all day. Leftish stations are going, 'President Obama saves the world.' Stations on the right are going, 'Obama kills fellow Muslim.'" –Craig Ferguson
"How about those Navy Seals. We're getting our money's worth there. They broke into Osama bin Laden's compound with 12-foot walls topped by barbed wire, and fired a warning shot into his head." –David Letterman
"The hot new drink around the country is the bin Laden. It's a Colt 45, and a shot that goes right to your head." –Jay Leno
"Apparently, members of Al Qaeda are online slamming the U.S. I don't understand why they're so upset. Everyone in Al Qaeda just got a promotion." –Craig Ferguson
"He's up to 2,000 friends on Shot In The Facebook." –Jimmy Kimmel
"President Obama gave the order for Navy SEALs to kill bin Laden. When President Bush heard about it, he was really upset, saying, 'I could have used seals?'" –Conan O'Brien
"And so, Osama Bin Laden got his first bath in almost ten years. This could the best shark week ever." –Jimmy Kimmel
"Finding bin Laden was like finding a needle in a country that swore it didn’t have needles." –Stephen Colbert
"President Obama announced that Osama bin Laden has been killed in Pakistan. That's right, bin Laden is dead — just like the Republicans' chances in 2012." –Jimmy Fallon
"It looks like President Obama has a new campaign slogan: 'Yes I Did.'" –Jay Leno
"Osama bin Laden was apparently shot twice in the face. It looks like Dick Cheney may have been involved." –Jay Leno
"Osama bin Laden is dead, which means the No. 1 threat to America is now the KFC Double Down." –Conan O'Brien
"Bin Laden lived in this compound in Pakistan with his wives for six years. So he did suffer." –David Letterman
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Port,
You'll have to listen to the interview. Context.
Our Country is at the brink of going over the edge to complete fascism and becoming a complete police state.
He has nothing to lose by coming forward and telling the truth and exposing the lies and all that he knows, because we are about to lose our Country. Without our Nation with a Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our Freedoms that we as a people of a once Great Nation have fought and died for, we have nothing.
The enemy is not without but within.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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After getting nailed, Osama made his way to the pearly gates. There, he is greeted by George Washington.
"How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive!" yells Mr. Washington, slapping Osama in the face. Patrick Henry comes up from behind: "You wanted to end the Americans' liberty, so they gave you death!" Henry punches Osama on the nose. James Madison comes up next, and says, "This is why I allowed the Federal government to provide for the common defense!" He drops a large weight on Osama's knee.
Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke, James Monroe and 65 other 18th-century American revolutionaries. As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.
As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams, "This is not what I was promised!"
An angel replies: "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you. What did you think I said?"
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Pentagon officials now believe they were unable to locate Osama Bin Laden because until recently he was in a place in which to hide where:
1) it is easy to get in if you have the money;
2) no one will recognize or remember you;
3) no one will realize that you have disappeared;
4) no one keeps any records of your comings and goings; and
5) you have no obligations or responsibilities.
The analysts are still puzzled, however, as to how Bin Laden found out about the Texas Air National Guard.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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If it weren't for Klimmer, we might never have known that bin Laden is a body double for Obama, that his killing was arranged by the Illumaniti and Masons, that he was shot in 2001 by a lone gunman from a grassy knoll in Area 51, and that his body is being kept in an ark on the far side of the Moon. Only three days after it became public, too, and without a single fact to support his brilliant hypothesis.
MH,
You only prove your are completely dishonest, but then that's old news. We knew that already.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oooh! Dissed by Klimmer - I'm cut to the quiche. Although I oughtn't be surprised that he has difficulty recognizing sarcasm, and has to resort to ad hominem remarks. Off to the Total Perspective Vortex with the fool!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Too funny Mighty Hikey...
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WBraun
climber
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It's really you MH that's that's constantly throwing out ad hominem remarks at klimmer.
You always do it in a subtle way.
That's your style and then say he's the one to be throwing them out.
You're one of the biggest sheep around.
Go back to your sheeple New York Times ......
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jstan
climber
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I do have to admit. Here on the California coast we do miss being in the City where everything of value is located.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dr. Steve Pieczenik is a critically acclaimed author of psycho-political thrillers and the co-creator of the New York Times best-selling "Tom Clancy's Op-Center" and "Tom Clancy's Net Force" book series. He is also one of the world's most experienced international crisis managers and hostage negotiators. His novels are based on his twenty years experience in resolving international crises for four U.S. administrations.
In other words, he is a writer of fiction.
Klimmer, I wasted my time looking at the links, and he is an OLD HAS-BEEN, who has not been on the "inside" for a long time.
Use a little logic: What "insider" comes out contradicting the administration, and continues to be an insider?
Where are HIS photos? Where is HIS birth certificate?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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dipwad
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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LoveGasoline wrote
Karl if you truly believe in Corporatocracy, propaganda, CIA foul play, and government misinformation then how do can you condemn the media's information dissemination as false constructs and at the same time also depend upon it 100% to construct and grow your theories?
Obviously you are (sitting in rural California) completely dependent on 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, 20th, or 100th generation information for your data. What special super powers do you have to untangle the labyrinth of riddles and discern the True from the false?
Sometimes it's key to realize you are being lied to, even as it becomes impossible to know the ultimate truth. When the Media reports what government's say, and on events, and there becomes holes and logical inconsistencies, it's possible to learn something. I can say for sure we're being lied to (and the story has already changed a couple times even on the recent hit) I can't say what the truth is.
Sorta like if a guy comes home with lip-stick on his collar and smells like perfume and he tells his wife he was shopping for her in the cosmetics department but then his credit card bill shows an expensive lunch restaurant and hotel bill charged in mid-day, a girl has to wonder
Folks should ask themselves why they are reluctant to question reality when contradictory information comes up. We like the security of being told how to think.
But it's clear if you dig below the surface here that we aren't asking the right questions about Bin Laden. We have no solid evidence and the public knows practically nothing about the role of Bin Laden in 9-11. Isn't that important since we've been in a war for 10 years in Afghanistan based on Bin Laden when Saudi Arabians did 9-11, planned in Germany we're told?
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nobody in the media wants to go anywhere near too close to the truth .......
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dirtbag
climber
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Backed by credible sources.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I still remember *very* clearly seeing on tv at DOJ (I believe it was CNN) on 9/11/01 the fiery disaster in DC as the commentator stated "the mall has been hit, the mall is on fire."
This immediately preceded - no it PROMPTED - my running for my life to get the hell out of DC before the next hit came.
Were they lying? No. They were mistaken. There are other options for inconsistencies. Lying is only one.
edit: I'm not saying to accept info either way, but to open up to other options.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thing is LoveGasoline, what are your really saying?
You aren't addressing any facts about Bin Laden and his 9-11 Involvement. You are criticizing applying critical thinking about the issue. What if nobody did so about the Gulf of Tonkin incident? Maybe in the end the Vietnam war still happened but it's damn obvious the government lies to us to justify war. Why is that not important?
Peace
karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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BUT HOPEY PROMISED US HE WOULD HEAL THE WORLD, MAKE MUSLIMS LIKE US!
Pakistanis burn U.S. flags; backlash over death grows...
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shut up and pull
climber
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FASCIST:
Obama floats plan to tax cars -- by the mile...
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shut up and pull
climber
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AMATEUR HOUR, FROM BRITAIN:
The White House press operation should be a well-oiled machine – and under Carney’s predecessor, Robert Gibbs, it sometimes gave the impression of being just that. But with Carney at the helm, it is more like that of a rinky-dink City Hall somewhere in the Deep South. One colleague described Carney’s rabbit-in-the-headlights performance as “sub-Whitehall” – worse, even, than that of a lone British civil servant with a cellphone and a laptop in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. For the public face of the White House to be someone so lacking in gravitas is a PR disaster.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Show credible sources that state that Obama said he would "heal the world"
and "make Muslims like us"
What a dumb little fuk SUAP is
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WBraun
climber
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If you guys really want the truth it's out there but it takes a lot of hard work.
Just Google around will not work.
That's what most people do Google a few places and they're convinced.
It's not that easy ....
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shut up and pull
climber
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FEEL THE HOPEY AND CHANGEY!
THE ECONOMIST: America’s Jobless Men. “Of all the big, rich Group of Seven economies, America has the lowest share of ‘prime age’ males in work: just over 80% of those aged between 25 and 54 have a job. In the late 1960s 95% worked.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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just a little something to think about
From
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15892
Bin Laden, on September 12, 16, 17, and 28 - stated that he had had nothing to do with the attacks. In the September statement, he had even declared:
I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. . . . [W]e are against the American system, not against its people, whereas in these attacks, the common American people have been killed.35
Is it likely that he would have made such statements if he himself had authorized the attacks and thereby the killing of innocents?
So later two tapes, show up, one with a guy who doesn't look plausibly like Bin Laden, shows up where he takes credit, but is writing with the wrong hand, wearing a gold ring (against Wahabbi beliefs) and more. That's enough to make me look deeper and what I find is almost nothing. We made Bin Laden the bogyman of 9-11 based on the politicians repeating it over and over. Show me some evidence.
Not saying he's a nice guy. It's plain he was behind violent attacks elsewhere. Just saying we're being manipulated. Who's the next bogyman? This sort of stuff happens just before we're being called to swallow some new military action.
Peace
karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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THE CRONIES IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS' UNIONS -- WHO FUND THE DEM PARTY -- WOULDNT LIKE THAT!
IF SUPERMARKETS WERE LIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS: What if groceries were paid for by taxes, and you were assigned a store based on where you live?
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shut up and pull
climber
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FROM INSTAPUNDIT:
PATHETIC: The European Media Reacts to Death of Osama Bin Laden. “European journalists have focused on whether the killing was permissible under international law; some are now calling for an international commission to investigate the American action. . . . In a reflection of the acute sense of moral superiority that is so common in contemporary Europe, secular analysts who are normally highly disdainful of Judeo-Christian moral codes have gone so far as to accuse the United States of violating the Fifth Commandment, without a hint of irony.”
Two things: First, if international law makes killing Osama bin Laden illegal, then the problem is with international law. Second — and you knew this was coming — “They told me if I voted Republican, Europeans would be calling our president a war criminal. And they were right!”
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It's one thing to say that the government-military-industrial complex can't always be trusted, that it may have motivations and information that we don't know about, and that the story we're given isn't always consistent or complete. Erecting a far fetched edifice alleging a vast and malevolent conspiracy based on isolated facts, small inconsistencies, and numerous unsupported assumptions is quite another. It's mental speculation, with little foundation in reality.
One of the people who repeatedly promotes such fantasies here claims to be a school teacher. He'd get a lot worse than the occasional derision he gets here for his fantasies, if he tried to do so at work. Even appreciating the peculiarities in the US national psyche, it's still nonsense.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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True DMT. The media has one purpose: deliver viewers to advertisers. Period. Sometimes this involves outright lies. (And I'm being generous by saying sometimes). Sometimes it involves omission of information that then creates misinformation. And sometimes they are mistaken. And sometimes they are given mistaken or purposely misleading information which they dutifully report.And lots of other things.
I certainly am not critical of anyone who is critically thinking about this or anything. I am a bit surprised to hear many (and I've got no one person in mind) immediately conclude that some statement are lies. Period. Many other things can and are likely in operation.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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100% in agreement with you there DMT. This incident has made some surprising bedfellows. :) I've actually enjoyed that aspect of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Check out Alex Beam (Newsweek and Boston Globe) as he explains how the controlled press in the U.S. has a long history of publishing stories that are nothing but lies.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Have you got a link, Werner?
And yes, the news media, which sometimes claims to be printing a first draft of history, is often wrong, especially in details. Any of us who've had dealings with it know that. Again, not proof of a conspiracy.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Show credible sources that state that Obama said he would "heal the world"
and "make Muslims like us"
What a dumb little fuk SUAP is
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monolith
climber
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Yep, there's the fatter bin laden and the skinnier bin laden tapes. One admitting, one denying. Same guy, just one tape converted improperly between formats with different aspect ratios.
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shut up and pull
climber
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WHEN YOU ELECT A DO-NOTHING, AMERICA-HATING, JEREMIAH-WRIGHT/AYERS WORSHIPPING, "COMMUNITY ORGANIZER" -- THIS IS WHAT YA GET:
10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden
By Toby Harnden May 5th, 2011, The Telegraph, Great Britain
President Obama's handling of the aftermath look amateurish. The past few days have seemed like an extended amateur hour in the White House as unforced error after unforced error has been made in the handling of the US Government’s message about the killing of bin Laden.
We should not forget the bottom line in this: bin Laden was justifiably and legally killed by brave and skilled US Navy SEALs. The operation was audacious and meticulous in its planning and execution. President Barack Obama made the call to carry out the raid and his decision was vindicated in spades.
Having said that, the messiness since then has taken much of the sheen off this success, temporarily at least. Here’s a summary of what went wrong once the most difficult bit had been achieved:
1. It took nearly three days to decide not to release the photographs. I think there was a case for not releasing the pictures, though on balance I think disclosure would have been best. But whichever way Obama went on this, the decision should have been made quickly, on Monday. By letting the world and his dog debate the issue for so long and then say no made the administration look indecisive and appear that it had something to hide. It will fuel the conspiracy theories. And the pictures will surely be leaked anyway.
2. To say that bin Laden was armed and hiding behind a wife being used as a human shield was an unforgiveable embellishment. The way it was expressed by John Brennan was to mock bin Laden as being unmanly and cowardly. It turned out to be incorrect and gave fuel, again, to conspiracy theories as well as accusations of cover-ups and illegality. Of all the mistakes of the week, this was by far the biggest.
3. It was a kill mission and no one should have been afraid to admit that. Bin Laden was a dead man as soon as the SEAL Team landed. There’s nothing wrong with that but the Obama administration should have been honest about it rather than spinning tales about bin Laden having a gun, reaching for a gun (the latest) and resisting (without saying how he resisted).
4. Too much information was released, too quickly and a lot of it was wrong. When it made the administration look good, the information flowed freely. When the tide turned, Jay Carney, Obama’s spokesman, clammed up completely. I’m a journalist; I like it when people talk about things. But from the administration’s perspective, it would have been much better to have given a very sparse, accurate description of what happened without going into too much detail, especially about the intelligence that led to the compound (an account which is necessarily suspect).
5. Obama tried to claim too much credit. Don’t get me wrong, he was entitled to a lot of credit. but sometimes less is more and it’s better to let facts speak for themselves. We didn’t need official after official to say how “gutsy” Obama was. Far better to have heaped praise on the CIA and SEALs (which, to be fair, was done most of the time) and talked less about Obama’s decision-making. And a nod to President George W. Bush would have been classy – and good politics for Obama.
6. Proof of death was needed. The whole point of the SEAL operation, rather than a B2 bombing that levelled the compound, was to achieve certainty. The administration has DNA evidence, facial recognition evidence and photographic evidence. Some combination of that evidence should have been collated and released swiftly. It’s not enough to say, effectively, “Trust me, I’m Obama” – especially given all the misinformation that was put out.
7. The mission should have been a ‘capture’ one. Notwithstanding 3. above and the legitimacy of killing bin Laden, I think a capture of bin Laden was probably possible and, in the long term, would have been better – not least because of the intelligence that could have been gleaned from interrogating him and the couriers. My hunch is that Obama didn’t want him alive because there would have been uncomfortable issues to address like whether he should be tried, where he should be held (it would have been Guantanamo – obviously) and the techniques for questioning him.
8. Obama’s rhetoric lurched from jingoistic to moralistic. During the initial announcement, Obama said that by killing bin Laden “we are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to”. If Bush had said that, he would have been mocked and laughed at, with some justification. But by today Obama was all preachy and holier than thou saying: “It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool. That’s not who we are. We don’t trot out this stuff as trophies.”
9. Triggering a torture debate was an avoidable own goal. Following on from 3. by discussing the intelligence, the administration walked into the issue of whether enhanced interrogation techniques yielded important information. That was certainly something they could have done without. Politically, it gave something for Republicans to use against Obama.
10. The muddle over Pakistan. Everyone I talk to with knowledge of these things tells me that Pakistan had to have given the green light for the raid in some form. But the Pakistanis, for good reasons, would not want this made public. Rather than say it would not comment on whether Pakistan had harboured bin Laden or was playing a double game, the White House poured petrol on the flames by encouraging criticism of Pakistan. That might have been deserved, but in terms of managing the region it was impolitic. The Pakistanis are clearly riled and the contradictions between the US and Pakistani accounts, again, fuel the conspiracy theories.
All this has meant that this week’s media story has become one about Obama and the White House more than one about the SEALs, the CIA and what killing bin Laden means. That’s exactly the wrong way round.
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jstan
climber
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"To interpret certain data as a lie may be a result of one's subjective bias."
When you reach an incorrect conclusion because of subjective bias
you are "lying" to yourself.
And
SUAP is now making a huge deal about a decision he implied to us
was something Obama should not have needed to "sleep on."
He also thinks starting a war using lies, allowing US corporations to sell fraudulent securities threatening nations around the globe, and bankrupting "The Only Superpower in the World" were major successes.
]
An unrelated matter is raised in last week’s NYT. I I post it here so I don’t have to start an off topic thread.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/pesticide-exposure-in-womb-affects-i-q/
April 21, 2011, 1:40 PM
Pesticide Exposure in Womb Affects I.Q.
By TARA PARKER-POPE
Pesticides on fruits, vegetables and other household products may lower a child’s I.Q.
Babies exposed to high levels of common pesticides in the womb have lower I.Q. scores than their peers by the time they reach school age, according to three new studies.
The research, based on data collected in New York and California from about 1,000 pregnant women and their babies, is certain to set off a new debate about the benefits of organic produce and the risks of chemicals found in the food supply and consumer products. The pesticides, called organophosphates, are commonly sprayed on food crops and are often used to control cockroaches and other pests in city apartments.
The latest findings are based on three separate but similar studies financed by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and the federal Environmental Protection Agency. Two were conducted by researchers at Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Columbia University and studied urban families in New York; the third was done by researchers at the School of Public Health at the University of California, Berkeley, and focused on children in Salinas, Calif., an agricultural area. All three were published online on Thursday in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
Each study began about a decade ago, when researchers recruited pregnant women who gave blood and urine samples that were used to measure pesticide exposure. In some instances, umbilical cord blood was tested. After the babies were born, the researchers continued to monitor the health of the children and also obtained regular urine samples to determine exposure to pesticides.
Over all, the studies found that women who had higher exposures to pesticides during pregnancy gave birth to children who eventually had lower I.Q. scores once they reached school age. In the Berkeley study, for instance, children with the highest levels of prenatal pesticide exposure scored 7 points lower on intelligence tests compared with children with the lowest levels of exposure. In that study, every 10-fold increase in organophosphate exposure detected during pregnancy corresponded to a 5.5 point drop in overall I.Q. scores.
“I think these are shocking findings,” said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a professor of pediatrics and director of the Children’s Environmental Health Center at Mount Sinai. “Babies exposed to the highest levels had the most severe effects. It means these children are going to have problems as they go through life.”
Dr. Landrigan compared the findings with research in the 1980s that linked childhood lead exposure to lower intelligence, dyslexia, higher risk for dropping out of school and a range of behavioral and developmental problems. As a result of that research, lead was removed from gasoline to prevent exposure from car exhaust, and it was also removed from paints and other consumer products.
The drop in I.Q. scores shown in the pesticide studies is similar to the drops shown in the earlier lead research, Dr. Landrigan said.
“When we took lead out of gasoline, we reduced lead poisoning by 90 percent, and we raised the I.Q. of a whole generation of children by four or five points,’’ said Dr. Landrigan. “I think these findings about pesticides should generate similar controversy, but I’m cautiously optimistic that they will have the effect of having the E.P.A. sharply reduce the use of organophosphate pesticides.”
Individuals can also do more to limit their own exposure. In homes with pest problems, sealing up cracks and crevices in baseboards and cleaning up food residue has been shown to be more effective at controlling cockroaches than using pesticides.
Steps can also be taken to minimize exposure to pesticides in foods, particularly among pregnant women. Buying organic foods can help because certified organic fruits and vegetables aren’t grown with organophosphate pesticides. Better washing and peeling of conventionally grown produce can also reduce exposure.
The Environmental Working Group offers a shopper’s guide showing which foods have the highest and lowest rates of pesticide exposure. Strawberries, peaches, celery, apples and spinach typically have the highest levels of pesticide residue among commercially grown fruits and vegetables. Onions, avocado, frozen corn and pineapple had the lowest levels of pesticide residue.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Show credible sources that state that Obama said he would "heal the world"
and "make Muslims like us"
What a dumb little fuk SUAP is
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shut up and pull
climber
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FASCIST:
Obama floats plan to tax cars -- by the mile...
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shut up and pull
climber
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Norton -- you have anger issues dude.
Remember -- there is no debt problem. Move along.
This is from a speech Obama made in 2006:
The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Little Cut and Run
Pussy
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Not anger, just intolerance for massive ignorance.
Now run away, time to get to back to work at Taco Bell little boy.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Karl, I enjoy reading your posts and it's a breath of fresh air to see people thinking for themselves and actually doing their own research.
Werner, seems we actually agree on some things.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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"I think you'd like Dick Cheney, I'm trying to get him to come to this years FL. He was close to coming two years ago, but he had back problems."-- fattrad
Fatty, better make sure that you bring lots of extra batteries (or the Energizer Bunny) to keep his pulse-less corpse moving and "alive" while picking up cig butts :-)
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richross
Trad climber
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Osama's bunker the last 8 or 9 years.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Norton -- what is your comment re Obama's 2006 speech re the debt?
Run!!!!
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shut up and pull
climber
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This is from a speech Obama made in 2006:
The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
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shut up and pull
climber
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When you read that speech in 2006, and see how vehement Obama was about how bad our debt situation was THEN -- it must make libs' heads explode to somehow try and defend how Hopey acts now about the debt (it is many times bigger), and the debt limit (i.e., there is no probem, keep spending).
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Radical notes: The media has one purpose: deliver viewers to advertisers. Period"
You're saying there is zero journalistic integrity? None, zero, zip?
Are ALL doctors now just in it for the money?
Are all lawyers ambulance chasers?
Is ever single politician a duplicates, selfish man interested in nothing but power?
Is every cop also crooked?
I said nothing about integrity, lawyers, doctors or politicians. I stated what the primary role of the media is and it is to deliver viewers to advertisers. You may feel differently and that's fine. Delivering viewers to advertisers does not necessarily entail lacking integrity or selfishness or power or being crooked. Those are your words.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Fat -- the GOP will cave. Its what they always do. Look at the "35 billion dollar cut" Boehner negotiated a couple weeks ago. When looked at straight on -- it is a mere 14 bil of actual cuts. A massive sham.
This country is being driven right into the toilet, with the Dems holding the wheel, and the GOP pushing from behind.
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shut up and pull
climber
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A LITTLE HISTORY LESSON, FROM ANDREW MCCARTHY, THE FEDERAL PROSECUTOR IN THE 1993 WTC BOMBINGS.
May 2, 2011 12:30 P.M.
A Different Kind of Justice
The policies that enabled yesterday’s success
By Andrew McCarthy
‘Justice has been done.” That was President Obama’s succinct assessment of the killing of Osama bin Laden by U.S. special-ops forces, carried out at his direction on Sunday. “We will be true to the values that make us who we are,” he said. Those values are what led him to pronounce justice done — no trial and no court authorization, and, for once, “habeas corpus” really meant that our government had the body, a corpse to identify, not a defendant to process.
It is worth remembering that bin Laden had been under indictment by the Justice Department for 13 years when he finally met his demise yesterday. A federal grand jury in Manhattan had charged him with terrorism conspiracy in June 1998, after he had, yet again, declared war on the United States. He’d already been doing that for years. It was only a few weeks later, on Aug. 7, 1998, that his al-Qaeda cells in eastern Africa bombed the American embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam — the first 224 of what became the thousands of innocents the master terrorist would murder in the ensuing decade-plus.
I argued in The Weekly Standard at the time (“The Sudan Connection: The Missing Link in U.S. Terrorism Policy”) that “justice” for bin Laden and the global jihad backed by several rogue nations — Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Sudan, for starters — was to regard them as a national-security challenge crying out for a military response. They were manifestly not a crime problem to be managed by FBI agents and prosecutors like me.
Yet, prosecution of crime rather than war had been the Clinton-administration counterterrorism strategy, beginning with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. It was maintained through a plot to bomb New York City landmarks later that year and a conspiracy to blow U.S. airliners out of the sky over the Pacific thereafter. The law-enforcement approach was even reaffirmed after jihadists killed 19 U.S. airmen in the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia — an attack the Clinton administration soon learned Iran had orchestrated, the mullahs and their forward militia, Hezbollah, having had cooperative relations with al-Qaeda since the early nineties.
Still nothing changed — in fact, President Clinton stood idle as the Saudis obstructed the FBI’s fruitless effort to investigate Khobar Towers. The ’98 embassy bombings did briefly stir Bill Clinton to lob a few cruise missiles bin Laden’s way — including at a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory that Clintonistas to this day maintain was a joint WMD venture involving bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. But that moment of clarity quickly passed — the threat was growing by leaps and bounds as threats are certain to do when met with fecklessness, but the Lewinsky scandal was finally burning out and with it Clinton’s impetus to treat a war like a war.
By the end of 1999, the 9/11 Commission gingerly recounts, Clinton had so befuddled the CIA regarding whether covert agents had authority to kill bin Laden that several golden opportunities were lost. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda continued to plan stunning operations, including the bombing of a naval destroyer, the U.S.S. Cole, in October 2000 — murdering 17 U.S. sailors as Clinton made his exit from the stage.
Prompted by the 9/11 atrocities, a new administration dramatically changed course. At least for a time, the government’s sense of “justice” was brought in line with the public’s: Pres. George W. Bush pledged that we would hunt terror cells down wherever they operated, and we would put the rogue regimes that abetted al-Qaeda to the test of changing their ways or feeling the wrath of the world’s lone superpower.
The Taliban, al-Qaeda’s hosts in Afghanistan, were driven from power, and bin Laden’s sometime-ally, Saddam Hussein, soon followed. Yet, bin Laden himself eluded our armed forces and intelligence services. Simultaneously, Iraq devolved from a spectacularly swift vindication of the Bush doctrine to a bloody, years-long misadventure in Islamic nation-building. The appetite for taking on the regimes that enable al-Qaeda to project outsize power was lost once the public saw that the price-tag would include precious lives and untold billions to be sunk into the dubious construction of sharia-lite democracies.
In the fallout, the hard Left recovered its voice. In early 2004, Howard Dean — who was then leading the Democratic presidential field and would go on to become chairman of the Democratic National Committee — explained that he could not judge what should befall bin Laden because the terror master had not yet had a fair trial and been convicted by a jury. Those in “positions of executive power,” he declaimed, should not “prejudge jury trials.”
Similarly, the ever-malleable Eric Holder, Clinton’s deputy attorney general, was back to portraying Bush counterterrorism as a borderline criminal exercise in Constitution-shredding. Immediately after 9/11, when Democrats had been anxious to prove they could be just as tough on terrorists as Bush, Holder had admonished a CNN host that “we are in the middle of a war,” and thus that captured terrorists should be detained without trial as “combatants” — in addition to being denied Geneva Convention rights so that “we . . . have an opportunity to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located.” But by 2008, while serving as a senior adviser to the Obama campaign, Holder was bemoaning Bush’s failure to treat captured terrorists “in accordance with the Geneva Conventions,” and condemning Bush counterterrorism as a green light for “torture” and a betrayal of the “rule of law.” One wonders what the attorney general will make of the fact that the intelligence derived from interrogating detainees proved essential in confirming bin Laden’s location for yesterday’s successful operation.
Obama himself campaigned on promises to end Bush counterterrorism, shutter Gitmo, and return to Clinton’s law-enforcement approach. There was a caveat, though, an indication that he had learned something from Clinton’s missteps. The candidate promised that he would attack al-Qaeda havens, focusing particularly on Pakistan — which he limned as especially unreliable. The then-senator warned that if Pakistan’s government did not clean up its own mess, he would not hesitate to attack its terrorist redoubts.
For his stance, the McCain campaign poked fun at his purportedly reckless provocation of ally. As some of us said at the time, however, Obama was entirely right.
There is much fault to find in Obama’s overall approach to the Islamist threat. His management of the vaunted “Arab Spring” has been incoherent, and there is dizzying discord between his rhetoric and actions when it comes to what “justice” for terrorists should entail — gold-plated due process for 9/11 architect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed versus lethal special forces for 9/11 maestro bin Laden. Nevertheless, Obama has clearly figured out that arrest warrants and subpoenas are not going to get it done in places like Islamabad, and that if a U.S. president is not clear in his directions to kill the jihad’s lead actors, it is they who will do the killing.
The slaying of this monster, the peerless capability of our armed forces it reaffirms, and the demonstration of national unity it has sparked, make this a great day for our country. They suggest, moreover, something else worth celebrating: the outlines of an effective, practical, and economic counterterrorism.
The criminal-justice system is not a deterrent to foreign terror networks that are bivouacked outside our country and thus outside the jurisdiction of its investigative agencies and courts. Nor are nation-building enterprises the answer: They are prohibitively costly in blood and treasure; they inspire sharia-based attacks against us; and they won’t make us safer — terrorists are expert at exploiting the freedoms available in democratic societies, and there is no reason to believe that country A’s becoming a democracy would make country B safer from jihadist terror. The future will not belong to the law-enforcement approach or the democracy project.
It will belong to small-scale special-forces operations that target top jihadists and their cells. It will entail diplomatic pressure and, when necessary, limited military engagements against terror-sponsoring regimes. It will feature less indulgence of faux allies like Pakistan, which do more to aid than confront the jihad. It will fashion a new legal system for the indefinite detention of al-Qaeda operatives who, for intelligence reasons, cannot or should not be tried in civilian courts. And it will require aggressive prosecution of al-Qaeda imitators inside our country, as well as those who materially support terrorists.
That’s the justice that reflects enduring American values. Here’s hoping we’ll someday remember May 1, 2011, as the day the nation came together around it — amid a warm glow of patriotism and a monumental defeat for our enemies.
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shut up and pull
climber
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OBAMA WANTS HIGHER GAS PRICES. THIS IS ALL PLANNED.
READ THE QUOTES FROM HIS ENERGY SECRETARY.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Mark Steyn on America
Wednesday, 04 May 2011
"It’s Back!”
So goes Walmart’s new slogan. What they mean is the old Walmart is back — “Everyday low prices!” — and their disastrous attempt to evolve into Goremart — “Every quarter higher losses!” — is over. Five years ago, Walmart hired an Al Gore adviser as PR chief, stripped the stores of déclassé products such as fishing tackle, and filled it up with a lot of stuff that was “green-friendly.” The Sierra Club and The New Yorker said nice things about them, and Mr. and Mrs. America stayed away. As former exec Jimmy Wright told the Wall Street Journal, “The basic Walmart customer didn’t leave Walmart. What happened is that Walmart left the customer.”
Walmart went green into the red, and then realized that they couldn’t afford the Al Gore retail model. There’s a lot of that around. Before the big Gulf spill, BP had spent a decade kissing up to Democrats and eco-progressives. Once upon a time, their initials stood for “British Petroleum,” but some Madison Avenue type thought it would look better to adopt the slogan “Beyond Petroleum” and replace their old logo with a flower. A pansy? Not yet. Just a sunflower. My colleague Jonah Goldberg suggested that, after the Demo-mediacracy effortlessly turned Tony Hayward into an oleaginous Snidely Whiplash, BP ought to own their rep and call themselves “Badass Petroleum.” Exactly: “We love to drill — and it shows!”
Corporations pretending to be social workers is bad enough. But, even in the decadent phase of capitalism, the market still functions well enough to bring Walmart to its senses in a mere half decade. Alas, for Big Government, there are no such corrective mechanisms. The government of the United States is currently borrowing over $4 billion a day. The Republicans recently secured an alleged landmark victory over Democrats that cut 38-point-something billion dollars from the budget. How many weeks of clenched-teeth high-stakes brinkmanship did it take to negotiate about nine days’ worth of cuts?
Did I say nine days’ worth? Oh, wait. That was on Friday night. By the following Tuesday afternoon, over half of the $38.5 billion had been exposed as various meaningless sleights of hand of which government, unlike Walmart, can avail itself very easily — for example, counting money in the Justice Department’s crime victims’ reserve fund that was never scheduled to be spent this year as a “savings” of $4.9 billion. Real savings — that’s to say, the kind that would pass muster according to Generally Accepted Accounting Principles — were around $14 billion — or, in other words, less than the U.S. government borrowed in the four days between the announcing of the “historic cuts” and their exposure as utterly fraudulent. A couple of days later, the "real" savings were down to about three hundred million - or about what the government borrows in less time than it takes a Congressional stenographer to type up the bill.
But assume for the sake of argument that that $14 billion were correct. If it takes four days to agree on two and a half days’ worth of “cuts,” how much time and energy and political capital would the Republicans have to expend to negotiate a budget reduction of, say, $300 billion? Whoa, steady on, man. That’s big bucks, a third of a trillion: We’d be tagged as “extremists.” Whereas borrowing $300 billion isn’t in the least bit “extreme”: It takes two and a half months, and it’s business as usual.
But somehow cutting it is beyond the bounds of political reality. And so as the ship fills up with water we congratulate ourselves on agreeing to pass out the thimbles.
The sheer variety of ingenious accounting wheezes used to dream up that $38.5 billion illustrates what we’re up against. I quote from National Journal:
White House officials said throughout the process that the composition of the cuts was more important than the top-line number, and that including mandatory cuts allowed that top line to grow while limiting the immediate impact of the cuts.
(My emphasis. Also my rolled eyeballs. And my mirthless guffaw.)
Do you know what that means? Hey, don’t bother: The “top line” is growing, while the baseline is also up. As they say in the small ads in the alternative weekly, are you a top or a base? Neither of the above? Don’t worry, I’m sure somewhere in between there’s a mid-line (the waterline?) where various “extremist” “cuts” are being enacted.
The first developed nation to get clobbered by the downturn was Iceland. It has 300,000 people. America has 300 million. If you have big government in a nation of 300,000 or even 10 million (Portugal), it’s relatively easy to figure out how much money you’re spending and on what. But, as that mythical $38.5 billion “cut” illustrates, in an ever more centralized, de-federalized nation of 300 million, meaningful oversight is all but impossible.
Meanwhile, USA Today reports that even a third of Republican voters say “the government should not try to control the costs of Medicare.”
Oh. Okay.
Where do this third of Republican voters live? Iowa? New Hampshire? And if you were a second-tier candidate trying to break out from the rest of the also-rans, mightn’t you be tempted to position yourself as their champion?
What happens if the government follows the advice of that third of Republicans and declines to “control the costs of Medicare”? The dollar dies as global currency, followed by inflation, the wiping out of your savings, widespread social unrest, huge increases in crime and violence, Mad Max on I-95 . . .
The question is whether enough Americans are willing to grow up — and fast: That’s to say, will they mature before the debt does? Forget the top line and the baseline: The bottom line is that it’s the end of the line.
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shut up and pull
climber
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In a sign of one major internal difference, Mr. Chu has called for gradually ramping up gasoline taxes over 15 years to coax consumers into buying more-efficient cars and living in neighborhoods closer to work.
“Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe,” Mr. Chu, who directs the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California, said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal in September.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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Can they not be dualistic?
Duality defines us these days.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's quite obvious that mistakes are made in reporting and conveying information. Anyone who has been around an incident and then read about it in the paper knows amazing disconnections happen with journalists.
On the other hand, "We were mistaken" is the first excuse of someone caught in a lie. At first, when Gulf of Tonkin was exposed as not happening and when WMDs were not found in Iraq, the government claimed mistakeness. Later, when more evidence surfaced showing that the government knew and used the incidents to go to war anyway, it was decades later and nobdy wanted to go back and sound an alarm or punish anyone.
So we have to be careful, particularly when the Military has plainly used disinformation and psy-ops to influence people.
So when the Government announced that Bin Laden was armed and used a woman as a shield, they later said they were mistaken. REALLY? This is a HUGE story and they had time to thoroughly debrief the Seals, test OBL's DNA, and the incidence was recorded. How could they get it wrong? Perhaps because the raid and killing is more legal if he was armed and has more impact if we can paint him as a coward?
Or maybe an honest mistake.
Of course there are greater questions about how the guy escaped capture for many years and was found in the lap of our allies military town.
Total Speculation: Ex CIA asset Bin Laden agrees to shut up and take the heat for 9-11 in exchange for the removal of US forces from Saudi Arabia (his main demand, which we actually did remove them) and not successfully hunting him down so he cozied up with the our allies in the Pakistan Military. Then he either died of natural causes and was put on ice or was chilling in Pakistan until we came to whack him. (possibly the reason this compound was hardly defended) I don't believe the above scenario but I don't believe the status quo version of the whole Bin Laden story either cause it's full of holes and lack of evidence. It's been 10 years, why not release some data?
Peace
karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Media as in plural, as in an institution. I see that as very different than the smallest single component of it (a person).
It is my belief that institutions have a primary purpose. Of course, they may have secondary ones as well. And they may have the publicly declared ones too. Is Fox News in it to present Fair and Balanced information or are they in it to deliver viewers to advertisers? (I only mention them as I can't remember other groups stated purposes...no tv signal in this house).
Given my experience (and research and corresponding literature about it for whatever that is worth), the media (as in plural and as in institution) has the #1 purpose of delivering viewers to advertisers.
Big audiences = big money. If not one watches, there is no money and the entity craters. If few were on facebook, Zuckerberg wouldn't be a gadzillionaire. If few watched Glen Beck, he'd be taken off the air (uh oh!). If people stopped watching CNN in big numbers, it'd go away.
I'm certainly open to hearing others thoughts on this. Maybe I'm wrong.
edit: I'm trying to be nice DMT!!! :)
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Karl Baba is the new Izzy Stone!!! Who knew???
In 1964, using evidence drawn from a close reading and analysis of published accounts, Stone was the only American journalist to challenge President Johnson's account of the Gulf of Tonkin incident. During the 1960s, Stone continued to criticize the Vietnam War. At its peak in the 1960s, the Weekly had a circulation of about 70,000,[12] yet it was regarded as very influential.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I._F._Stone
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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You're saying there is zero journalistic integrity? None, zero, zip?
Are ALL doctors now just in it for the money?
Are all lawyers ambulance chasers?
Is ever single politician a duplicates, selfish man interested in nothing but power?
Is every cop also crooked?
That's one heck of a leap.
But from what I've seen recently, it doesn't seem as many true journalists are working for the corporate controlled mass media anyway. Many are tweeting from places like Libya, Yemen and the like. Or they have web outlets that aren't owned by a corporate monolith. They are producing their own stories, finding the facts on the own and reporting to a much smaller audience.
These corporations have a legal mandate to maximize profit. All other considerations (such as fact checking, and balance) are subordinate, and the profit imperative will trump when necessary.
As for the other professions, each is a unique case, and there are good and bad apples everywhere.
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shut up and pull
climber
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The reason the liberals hate Fox news is because for decades the news has been fed to us by the liberals at CBS, NBC, ABC, NPR, the NY Times, the LA Times, the Wash Post, and Hollywood -- now the tide has balanced a bit.
When polls are conducted at all of these news outlets, the employees and reporters are overwhelmingly Dems, hence the news always had a pro-left bent.
Now -- with Fox News, the internet, and Rush -- the left cannot dominate the news like they used to. And boy are they pissed. Its why you see so many efforts by libs to shut down views by conservatives, whether on our college campuses via speech codes, or the "Fairness Doctrine" pushed by the Dems, or the unions shouting down conservative speakers time and time again.
Libs -- you don't own the channels of speech anymore. And your tantrums to shut conservatives up only highlight the threat you folks pose to our liberties. Please -- keep screaming and trying to drown us out -- you only prove our point that liberalism, as practiced today, is the enemy of freedom.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Karl said:
So when the Government announced that Bin Laden was armed and used a woman as a shield, they later said they were mistaken. REALLY? This is a HUGE story and they had time to thoroughly debrief the Seals, test OBL's DNA, and the incidence was recorded. How could they get it wrong? Perhaps because the raid and killing is more legal if he was armed and has more impact if we can paint him as a coward?
A problem with Karl's theory is that if the US gov't was lying in the first instance about Bin Laden being armed and using a woman as a shield, why did it stop lying? There's no way that lie would have ever been exposed (I suppose Osama's daughter could have contradicted the story, but I wouldn't be too worried about that if I were the CIA operative in charge of Karl's proposed scheme).
Seems to me that the US government quickly correcting erroneous early accounts of the raid are more consistent with trying to tell the truth than lying, as the lies would not be expected to dramatically change for no good reason.
Still, I admit that I don't have a good theory as to how such an "honest mistake" could have occurred and I also find the whole thing to be troubling. The episode isn't really consistent with either a lie or an honest mistake--it's just very, very weird.
One theory, that I don't think is super-plausible and is just off the top of my head, is that the gov't does periodically inject false stories (lies), then quickly contradicts them, just so people trying to pay attention quickly realize it's a hopeless task and just give up. I'm about at that stage myself!
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shut up and pull
climber
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Soooo funny watching libs in here trying to give cover to Obama for all the different versions that came out about the OBL raid.
"They arent lying. They are just mistaken."
Geeez. Such trust.
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jstan
climber
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"Lovegasoline
Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
May 5, 2011 - 10:37am PT
jstan:
You still haven't answered my post question upthread.
"To interpret certain data as a lie may be a result of one's subjective bias."
When you reach an incorrect conclusion because of subjective bias you are "lying" to yourself.
So, jstan are you lying to yourself or are you telling yourself the truth?
Lay the truth on us about Bin Laden.
*I thought a lie involves intention. If one is unaware of their subjective bias is it a lie?"
LG:
I was not able to find a question. All pretty much assertions. The last line merits a response.
According to the dictionary you are correct, lies are intentional.
Now let me ask you a question.
What is the intention when one is driven by subjective bias?
I submit it is to be found "correct".
So that is the intention when one speaks from subjective bias. There is the intention.
Now to the question in your last line.
"If one is unaware of their subjective bias is it a lie?"
I think one of the first signs of maturity is the realization that everyone is subject to bias, Some more than others. So it is I harp constantly on the need to present the data underlying our opinions.
We can do something about our biases if it is our intention to do so. When arguing a point with yourself, in fact especially when arguing a point with yourself, use the data.
We become permanently trapped in our biases immediately as we forget escaping them is our primary task. Every day.
When we fail in this we become a broken record, responding in Pavlovian fashion to the voice in our head, becoming ever more certain. For some, this is a path leading to clinical illness.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think another theory is this
First you tell people what you want them to believe. It's on Page One and they have their emotional reaction.
Then you say you were mistaken and tell more of the truth. It's on page 4 and the reaction has already happened. They've done studies on this. Sometimes people cling to story one after it's already been debunked.
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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"They arent lying. They are just mistaken."
That's what sheeple say.
That's what cattle say.
As they happily eat their grass in front of the slaughterhouse ......
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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The photos should have been released promptly. Not as a “spike the ball” move but to bring closure to this event. Our President needs to recognize that we are a Democratic Republic, not an autocracy where he can simply issue a statement which makes things so. So now the administration is struggling to spin each subsequent conflicting statement they make and are losing control of the dialog.
And then our “We don’t spike the ball” President is in New York doing exactly that, a victory lap at Ground Zero. Aren’t these the same New Yorkers down whose throats he tried to cram the civil trial of KSM? He lost that one and I expect he’ll lose on the photos in the end too. Sooner or later they’ll come out.
I’m okay with the killing of Bin Laden, but let’s recognize that it was done using policies developed by previous administrations including the Seal Team which works directly for The President (you know, that Bush/Cheney assassination squad.) And I respect Obama for making the call, but realistically by the time he was told that we knew where Bin Laden was there were a lot of CIA analysts and military folks who knew, and who would have been extremely pissed if nothing was done, so he really had no choice. The news that we had located Bin Laden and the administration chose not to act would have been leaked before the 2012 election.
I’m really not okay with classifying the photos and disposing of the body/evidence as soon as possible. These actions raise questions and make closure and moving on next to impossible. And so the smart choice to go in with a ground assault team, so the results could be verified, may well end up with us losing face and credibility and further destabilizing the Afghan – Pakistani region.
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jstan
climber
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LG:
I don't believe I have made any statements about 72 virgins. I think I would remember that.
To what are you referring?
Ksolem:
"So now the administration is struggling to spin each subsequent conflicting statement they make and are losing control of the dialog."
1. Can you give me any instance where the administration, or anyone else for that matter, has been able to "control the dialog"? If you cannot then you are in the position of faulting someone for failing to do something that can, in practical terms, be described as impossible.
2. If the administration had made no information available or even postponing the release, it would have, rightfully, been accused of performing secret acts.
3. When a person loses his rappel and is killed right in front of another person how can there be an extended angry debate? But we just did that.
4. How would have handled a military incursion involving many military personnel on a mission that was going to involve many indeterminacies, in such a way that there would be certainty.
From all that I read it seems Bin Laden has for some time been out of the loop as regards day to day al qaeda operations. With the search for him going on, this would be expected. If that is the case and people in the US were interested only in our influencing those day to day military operations, Bin Laden would have been irrelevant. He might have just been left alone.
If we go with that picture for a moment, how would Obama have been received had he come out and said we would leave him alone for these reasons. Taking him out will assuredly have negative military and diplomatic consequences.
How would you have reacted?
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Gene
climber
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Nice post, Ksolem
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Gene
climber
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Does a foreign citizen have the right to not have their corpse put on display or used for advertising or political purposes?
Ask this guy.
Or this US citizen.
41 years ago yesterday
Or the WTC jumpers.
etc., etc., etc.
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jstan
climber
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LG:
Here are the first two sentences:
"I was not able to find a question. All pretty much assertions. The last line merits a response.
According to the dictionary you are correct, lies are intentional."
Nothing in there about 72 virgins or faith for that matter.
Thanks for the exchange. It has been an eye opener.
Edit:
Oh. Now I see there was a later post. I'll take a look at it.
Edit 2:
I went on at length how one can use data to reveal bias. When the data does not support your conclusion you know you have to look for the source for your opinion.
You then asked how to escape bias.
We have a comprehension problem.
I can't help you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kris wrote: And then our “We don’t spike the ball” President is in New York doing exactly that, a victory lap at Ground Zero. Aren’t these the same New Yorkers down whose throats he tried to cram the civil trial of KSM? He lost that one and I expect he’ll lose on the photos in the end too. Sooner or later they’ll come out.
You sound like Glenn Beck. In fact that is what Glenn Beck said on his show last night.
If you watched the families and first responders today they were honor to have the president there. No victory lap, no speech.
It is the old 'man in the arena" syndrome.
Carry on...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I only have one thing to add to what Kris said.
There should have been absolutely no news at all until all the intelligence gathered (hard drives etc.) had been gone through and exploited as far as practical.
We got really good at this in Iraq. Popping one AQ leader and within 48 hrs getting several more from documents and hard drives captured with him.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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wow, i guess i shouldn't be surprised by these threads and probably shouldn't ever post in them.
a couple of obvious points:
first, the initial decision not to release photos was endorsed by the republicans most involved in security issues (i.e., including john mccain).
second, neither i nor anyone else in this thread has the info or competence to judge whether in fact releasing the photos would have heightened security risks (esp. for us operatives still embedded in pakistan), but if the wh had released the photos, they would've been criticized for doing so by the same leading voices on the rep rump now demanding release.
third, any released photos would be getting denounced as fakes on this thread, the radio, and eventually, on tv by the rep rump
fourth, in terms of domestic politics, it's probably wise to not release the photos, let palin and other gamblers keep pushing the envelope until they are publicly making the sorts of claims we're seeing on this thread (conspiracy, fake, etc.), then bring in the navy seals for a photo-op to underline the point: the conspiracy folks are calling the navy seal war heroes liars.
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jstan
climber
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/us-markets-oil-idUSTRE7446BH20110505?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
(Reuters) - Oil plunged more than 8 percent on Thursday, heading for the third biggest daily drop in dollar terms on record, as concerns about economic growth and monetary tightening spurred a sell-off in commodities.
U.S. crude tumbled below $100 a barrel in heavy trading volume after weak economic data from Europe and the United States fed concerns that have battered commodities all week. German industrial orders fell unexpectedly in March while U.S. weekly jobless claims hit eight-month highs.
World stocks fell and the 19-commodity Reuters-Jefferies CRB index swooned more than 4.5 percent, heading for its biggest weekly decline since December 2008.
"The longer-term bull cycle is still in place, but this correction may have a life span of several months, as weaker economic data is fueling this correction to a large part," said Sterling Smith, senior analyst for Country Hedging Inc in Minnesota……………….
………Selling pressure on oil and other commodities came on several fronts this week, with investors weighing factors from the death of Osama bin Laden to the impact of higher fuel and commodity costs on the economies of consumer nations to monetary policy in major economies.
"Crude oil is selling off sharply for two primary reasons: QE2 is coming to an end in June and without a QE3 behind it, it will take liquidity out of the market, hurting risky asset classes such as commodities," said Chris Jarvis, senior analyst, Caprock Risk Management in New Hampshire.
"With Osama bin Laden dead, the market is adjusting the geopolitical risk premium down accordingly. Given this, speculative money is being taking off the table."
India's central bank raised rates more than expected on Tuesday, and expectations No. 2 oil consumer China could take similar actions helped push down prices on Wednesday.
End Quote
I bolded something I don’t follow. Commodity shifts are sensitive to interest rates as they have implications as to GDP going forward. Don’t need so many commodities if production is off.
To explain how Bin Ladden forces money off the table you have to say his death has increased uncertainty not decreased it. Speculators run from uncertainties they did not expect. Commodities have been driven to speculative levels, IMO, based upon the supposed recovery.
The world and the people in it are doing just what they have been doing for some time now. Where is the surprise?
Edit:
Actually Kerwin you should post more. An occasional exposure to reasoned thought is a great change. Gets boring O/W.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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a victory lap
Yeah, that's the right wing talking point, they've all been using it today.
If this mission had crashed and burned, would anybody be mentioning W?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Bob D: You sound like Glenn Beck. In fact that is what Glenn Beck said on his show last night.
I wouldn't know about that. I don't listen to that nutjob if I can possibly avoid it.
If the Ground Zero appearance is becoming a right wing talking point that is because of the obvious contradiction of it all.
Jstan, obviously no administration can totally control the dialogue on anything. The goal would be to maintain enough control to remain credible. My point is just that the Obama administration by concealing the photos, disposing of the body, and having to admit to one "we were mistaken" after another is at risk of losing credibility.
What would I have done you ask? My style would be to announce the success of the raid, praise the military and other personnel involved, make a concise statement defending the legality of it and release a photo of the body. I would then have offerred to deliver the remains to the Bin Laden family who survive him. I would direct my administration to make no statements regarding a Presidential role in the mission. That should be left unsaid. And no public appearances.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kris wrote: If the Ground Zero appearance is becoming a right wing talking point that is because of the obvious contradiction of it all.
Who's contradiction???
Lay a wreath, no speech and visited with families and first responders of 9/11.
So were did you come up with the "victory lap"..not Glenn but Rush???
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Does anyone else remember how, at the start of the invasion, the Bush Administration very publicly threatened war crimes charges if the Iraquis released pictures of dead American soldiers?
Does anyone else remember how Bush refused to allow even pictures of flag-draped coffins containing American soldiers to be published?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Hawkeye, in the Bible just proceeding the 10 commandments it noted
that some not all acts of adultery are punishable by death upon either
1 or both and the person who takes their life is not guilty of murder.
huh? thanks but i am unsure of why i care. the bible has less to do with all of this than the Koran....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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He stood there and TOOK RESPONSIBILITY, not credit. He gave credit where it was due.
good point DMT.
i am fine with no photograph and the burial at seza thing is brilliant. why? because if preventing some zealots from getting inspiration either from pictures or visiting an OBL shrine saves one life its worth it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Your last admin completely lacked the stones...
"My" last administration? Far from it. Don't paint me as a Bushbot just because I criticize our current President sometimes.
My complaint regarding administration remarks about the Presidents role had nothing to do with remaks made by the President himself. His spokespeople were flapping their tongues.
Sorry Bob, I don't listen to Rush much either. I'm more of a Brian Suits / Bill Carroll type.
Gotta go now. Cheers everyone.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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First you tell people what you want them to believe. It's on Page One and they have their emotional reaction.
Then you say you were mistaken and tell more of the truth. It's on page 4 and the reaction has already happened. They've done studies on this. Sometimes people cling to story one after it's already been debunked.
karl, funny thing is that you could also be accused of obfuscation by not believeing anything about anything.
people will learn much more about the facts not by what "fact" is reported in the news, but by the process and message evolution and positions taken. that will point to the real life behind the scenes happenings. human nature is varied, personal agendas different, and nobody is a machine designed to spew facts out in front of them but in this day and age this seems to be what most people expect.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nope
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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mono - some people are freaking perfectionists. unless you have your modern day conspiracy approved by the supreme court it doesnt fly. i take that back, those guys/gals in robes can also be bought off....
edit, mono deleted his post pretty fast.
edit2 - Our only option was kill him and let the Amerikans rejoice.
that works for me.
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monolith
climber
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Yea Hawkeye, I decided not to get involved. Not worth the distraction. Let the truthers have fun in their little playpen.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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i am fine with no photograph and the burial at seza thing is brilliant. why? because if preventing some zealots from getting inspiration either from pictures or visiting an OBL shrine saves one life its worth it.
It was also brilliant because the destruction prevents anyone from figuring out the details of what happened. For example, was he shot in the back, therefore disproving the administration's claims that OBL would have been taken alive if possible?
This thought was explored by Alan Dershowitz in WSJ today--basically recounted that in his extensive experience in murder trial defense, forensics on the body is often the key to understanding what happened. AD also noted that we don't bury a Muslim homicide victim within 24 hours. The whole thing allows Obama to kind of have his cake and eat it to--there's a nudge/wink to those who think the assassination was just fine while also at least plausibly complying with some notions of international law.
This is pretty much beaten to death, but if the position is going to be that Obama was killed while resisting a lawful attempt to arrest him rather than in an assassination, wouldn't it be incumbent on the administration to do an investigation into the circumstances of the killing?
Obama is generally a smooth operator--everyone should give him that.
Oh changing gears:
Was Osama the mastermind of 9/11?
My memory as being an adult who generally follows current events and has since before 9/11--I don't think anyone (who knows what they're talking about) ever really contended that Osama was the mastermind of 9/11. It was an AQ operation and Osama was in charge of AQ, but it was planned lower on the hierarchy (by KSM), and merely approved by Osama.
At least that's the way I remember. I'm talking about generally accepted reports, not conspiracy stuff.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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you propose actually trusting the Obama administration to investigate itself on the
circumstances of the killing itself?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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you propose actually trusting the Obama administration to investigate itself on the
circumstances of the killing itself?
Well, that's basically how any investigation of possible government wrongdoing is done, yes. Obviously there is a potential conflict of interest, but an investigation is more credible than an all-too-convenient destruction of evidence.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So much for having destroyed the downed chopper - nice present for the Chinese.
The remote operator obviously nicked a compound wall either setting it down, which seems inept at best, or wasn't adequately situationally aware in attempting to do [very] close surveillance (which seems ill-advised with a drone that size). If he was setting it down, then it begs the question of why bother landing the drone at all.
In either case, it points certainly out some of the current limitations of remote piloting in close-in surveillance ops. It would seem some all-sides proximity sensors tied to command overrides would be in order.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...therefore disproving the administration's claims that OBL would have been taken alive if possible...
You can bet your ass NO ONE wanted him alive - it would have caused way, way too many problems downstream. Not the least of which, given the multitude of nationalities who died in the WTC attack, would have been a clamoring demand he be tried in the Hague and not in a US civilian or military court.
Very messy all in all. This was definitely a case of the deader the better from the get go no matter who makes claims to the contrary.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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was he shot in the back
actually, that could also be used to indicate he was a coward running away while he had no issue with sending others to their deaths for his cause. frankly, i dont give a sh#t where they shot him.
Gene, why?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sen. Dianne Feinstein, chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, told CNN that weapons were near bin Laden, who died on an upper floor of the compound toward the end of the nearly 40-minute raid. "He was right there and going to get those arms. You really can't take a chance."
this is a great case where in my opinion the facts are not all in (but does not make me disbelieve everything i hear). imagine you are osama and you damn sure heard the choppers come in. you probably heard footsteps (assume that the SEALs used silenced firearms ). so why the hell would it take him 40 minutes to try and get to the firearms, and why the hell would the SEALs give him 40 minutes. i call BS on that. knowing the penchant for bombs if you were planning this raid would you not go in so fast and furious as to have any fighting over in a matter of 5 minutes tops? i mean 25 guys only dispatched what 4 killed?
taking 40 minutes to off 4 guys makes no sense for me and the above statement if true would suggest that OBL must have been so drugged or out of it as to not hear anyone until they were at this frickin door.
this does not make me disbelieve everything i hear, nor does it make me think that there was a great big conspiracy and OBL was dead in 2001 and ripened for the right time....just sayin.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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monolith
climber
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Hawkey, I bet we'll find he wasn't killed after 40 minutes. The whole operation took that long, including the collection of intelligence.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Proof the killings were illegal, this is the worst fake planting of a gun to justify a shooting I've ever seen.
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Gene
climber
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the Fet,
Don't you know that that is a White House authorized Photoshop image that had to be manipulated in order to not inflame al-Qaeda sensibilities? Al-Qaeda guys don't pack real heat.
Sheesh.
g
PS: Never bring a squirt gun to a SEALs event.
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shut up and pull
climber
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A LOOK AT OBAMA’S post-Osama-shooting polls. Some weird results: He got a bounce, but “according to Quinnipiac, his re-elect among independents actually went down.”
Why? Cuz everyone knows Barry Hussein wants to make nice-nice with the terrorists, not kill them.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Obama oil subsidy plans a boon for big oil. “The Obama plan would give Big Oil a huge win by making their smaller competitors less competitive.”
Its called corporatism folks. And Obama is the master of the corporations.
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shut up and pull
climber
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OBAMA AND OSAMA: The Vindication Of President Bush? “In one event, on May Day, the entire case against President Bush was demolished by one of his greatest critics: President Obama. . . . President Obama, one of the Bush administration’s most strident and vocal opponents, used the very tools, techniques, and tactics that he attacked previously and very publicly to accomplish it all, vindicating former President Bush and six years of the War on Terror before Obama took office.”
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shut up and pull
climber
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uh oh.
San Francisco vs. USA: Rift Emerges in Responses to Bin Laden's Death
Source: The Bay Citizen
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shut up and pull
climber
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UH OH.
May 3, 2011
Top Green Admits: “We Are Lost!”
Walter Russell Mead
George Monbiot of the left-leaning British newspaper The Guardian has a must-read column in which he admits that because of a whole series of intellectual mistakes, the global green movement’s policy prescriptions are hopelessly flawed.
Read the whole piece for a thoughtful and brutally clear expose of the intellectual bankruptcy of the green movement from one of the smartest people in it. This is what I’ve been getting at for more than a year here: regardless of what is happening to Planet Earth, the green movement does not have coherent and workable solutions.
Greens like to have it both ways. They warn darkly about “peak oil” and global resource shortages that will destroy our industrial economy in its tracks — but also warn that runaway economic growth will destroy the planet through the uncontrolled effects of mass industrial productions. Both doomsday scenarios cannot be true; one cannot simultaneously die of both starvation and gluttony.
Monbiot gets it, and furthermore concedes one of the main arguments of the anti-green case. The ‘problem’ is not a shortage of carbon rich non-renewable futures. The problem is the abundance of these fuels. We are not running out of hydrocarbons; shale natural gas, tar sands and coal offer enormous reserves that can cover our needs for the foreseeable future. We have an abundance of fossil fuel. Moreover, it seems likely that for a very long time to come, fossil fuels will be substantially cheaper and more abundant that expensive renewables. (One should also note that these new fuel sources are found in places like Canada and the United States rather than Saudi Arabia and Iran.)
More, Monbiot also acknowledges the contradictory and inconsistent nature of the green solutions. He acknowledges that there is no prospect for democratic politics to impose the draconian limits on consumption and economic activity that green dogma requires. Every ‘solution’ the greens have come up with has a fatal flaw of some kind; none of it works, none of it makes any sense. As Monbiot concludes,
“All of us in the environment movement, in other words – whether we propose accommodation, radical downsizing or collapse – are lost. None of us yet has a convincing account of how humanity can get out of this mess. None of our chosen solutions break the atomising, planet-wrecking project. I hope that by laying out the problem I can encourage us to address it more logically, to abandon magical thinking and to recognise the contradictions we confront. But even that could be a tall order.”
This is an awesome admission of categorical intellectual, political and moral failure. For two decades greens have arrogated to themselves the authority of science and wrapped themselves in the arrogant certainty of self-righteous contempt for those who oppose them. They have equated skepticism about their incoherent and contradictory policy proposals with hatred of science and attacked their critics as the soulless hired shills of the oil companies, happy to ruin humanity for the sake of some corporate largesse.
Monbiot has worked his way through to a cogent description of the dead end the global green movement has reached, but he has not yet diagnosed the cause. In particular, he remains a staunch Malthusian. In his view, humanity is good at creating new ways to destroy itself, but not at finding solutions to the problems we create. Our ingenuity is magically good at finding new fossil fuels, but we have no skill whatsoever at managing the consequences of our discoveries. The unknown technologies of the future will create horrible new disasters, but they will offer no new ways to contain or manage the disruption they cause.
Economic growth is a cancer, in this view. Its bad effects are permanent and cumulative, its blessings are evanescent and ultimately trivial.
Malthusianism is a religious conviction that desperately needs to think of itself as a science. From Thomas Malthus and his mathematical certainties to Paul Ehrlich with his famine timetables and the Club of Rome with its ‘scientific’ predictions of resource exhaustion, Malthusians have made confident predictions about the future and claimed scientific authority for statements that turned out to be contemptibly silly. That is the brutal fate that often awaits people who can’t keep the boundaries between science and religion straight.
It is happening on a massive and humiliating scale to the world’s greens today. Monbiot’s sober assessment of the consequences is dead on; when the greens digest his analysis and go a bit further to ask how they got into this mess, they will be ready to join something that the world truly and urgently needs: a serious and grownup conversation about how to conserve the beauty and viability of our glorious home as the human race continues to develop the extraordinary intelligence Mother Nature has seen fit to give us.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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suap - go pull on your pud. that is what your name is about right? oh, can't find it? right....
and on the conspiracy theory topic, here is a good read...
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-evidence-al-qaeda-considered-911/story?id=13536789
"As of February 2010, al-Qa'ida was allegedly contemplating conducting an operation against trains at an unspecified location in the United States on the 10th anniversary of September 11, 2001," the document reads, using an alternate spelling for bin Laden's terror group. "As one option, al-Qa'ida was looking into trying to tip a train by tampering with the rails so that the train would fall off the track at either a valley or a bridge."
maybe suap can get a tsa job walkin the line....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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suap,
9/11 families to Obama: 'Thank you for doing what you promised'
bush promised too, but we know how few of those promises were kept. were you shrub's illegitmate child and you need some lovin?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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which seems ill-advised with a drone that size
LOL
It's what's left of a tail rotor of a silenced MH60L. (upside down) You can see the drive shaft draped over the wall.
Silenced helicopters have been around since the 70's
I've been overflown by a silenced UH-1. Looked like it had barn doors for rotor blades!
You can't hear the blades at all and only hear it when it's close enough that you can hear the turbine. Right on top of you.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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which also explains earlier questions on how they could fly undetected as that modified copter had special ant-radar coatings as well. while not as stealthy as a plane, it apparently can still get the job done.
but alas, there are still other reported details that provide food for whatever the conspiracy theorists wnat to question.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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which seems ill-advised with a drone that size
LOL
It's what's left of a tail rotor of a silenced MH60L. (upside down) You can see the drive shaft draped over the wall.
Silenced helicopters have been around since the 70's
I've been overflown by a silenced UH-1. Looked like it had barn doors for rotor blades!
You can't hear the blades at all and only hear it when it's close enough that you can hear the turbine. Right on top of you.
TGT, good catch! I'm not familiar with the stealth mod and the cowling makes it look like a drone, albeit one with a mysterious lift component. To some extent then it's even worse that either the pilot didn't know there was a compound wall there, or there was a maintenance issue - both bad.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Regarding the silence of the copters
http://mashable.com/2011/05/02/live-tweet-bin-laden-raid/
A Pakistani IT consultant LIve tweeted the raid (without knowing what was going on) and made it clear that the helicopters were plenty loud.
Helicopter hovering above Abbottabad at 1AM (is a rare event). ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 12:58
Go away helicopter - before I take out my giant swatter :-/ ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 13:05
A huge window shaking bang here in Abbottabad Cantt. I hope its not the start of something nasty :-S ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 13:09
@m0hcin the few people online at this time of the night are saying one of the copters was not Pakistani... ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 13:48
t
OMG :S Bomb Blasts in Abbottabad.. I hope everyone is fine :( han3yy
May 1, 2011 at 13:45
t
@m0hcin all silent after the blast, but a friend heard it 6 km away too... the helicopter is gone too. ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 13:44
@raihak Funny, moving to Abbottabad was part of the 'being safe' strategy ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 13:57
Since taliban (probably) don't have helicpoters, and since they're saying it was not "ours", so must be a complicated situation #abbottabad ReallyVirtual
May 1, 2011 at 14:02
The abbottabad helicopter/UFO was shot down near the Bilal Town area, and there's report of a flash. People saying it could be a drone.
Kinda remarkable that Bin Laden and his compound weren't well defended. He must have felt protected (or not, what do I know)
but know this, it's obvious from the tweets that it wasn't cat-like silence where Bin Laden suddenly awoke from slumber to a gun in his face.
There are report circulating (could be more people mistaken) that four helicopters were used in the operation and one went down due to ground fire, but I can't find a credible link for that. Can you get 26 guys into one of those machines and fly away? Wiki says they can carry 11 troops and a four man crew but I suppose people could cram in for an emergency.
Bin Laden's daughter said the seals took her Brother so it's possible we have a prisoner that we don't know about yet.
Peace
karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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FASCIST:
Obama floats plan to tax cars -- by the mile...
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shut up and pull
climber
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LIBS NEVER EVER SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DIGEST THIS ONE, AND COME UP WITH A COGENT RESPONSE.
This is from a speech Obama made in 2006:
The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
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shut up and pull
climber
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SO LETS SEE:
OBAMA IN 2006 SAYS WE SHOULD NOT RAISE THE DEBT LIMIT BECAUSE WE WERE ALREADY IN TOO MUCH DEBT BACK THEN.
NOOOOOW, OBAMA SAYS WE MUST RAISE THE DEBT LIMIT, EVEN THOUGH WE ARE IN FAR FAR WORSE OFF SHAPE ECONOMICALLY, AND WITH MUCH HIGHER DEBT.
CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN TO ME THE MIND OF BARRY HUSSEIN OBAMA?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Below another observation and not mine but makes sense. So this is speculation.
* 24 in the primary assault group
* 80 "commandos" total. Not clear if this includes aircrew on the MH-47, CSAR assets, etc. Likely includes the 24 in the primary assault force.
* Force included tactical SIGINT (ISA), collection team, and "navigators"
* Assault launched from either Jalalabad, Afghanistan, or Ghazi, Pakistan. "Official" reporting is Afghanistan, but it is still possible that it was launched from Ghazi.
* 2 MH-47s as "backup"
* 2 "Modified blackhawks" for the primary assault force. The "modified blackhawks" may be conventional news outlets sourcing a AvWeek story which sources SPF.
* After the loss of 1 assault helicopter, the aircraft was demolished and the orphaned assaulters used one of the MH-47s for exfil.
So given the above, the two "stealth helicopters" flew in with some very unstealthy MH-47s. If the assault launched out of JBad, the SHHHHHH-60s would likely have refueled at some point. A stealthy inflight refueling boom would be an interesting challenge, but a FARP is another possibility.
Given the number of persons in the assault force, and the requirements to conduct an assault like this, the transport capacity seems thin. Since the lessons of EAGLE CLAW US special operations forces have not made it a practice to under resource an assault. It's likely there were more backup assets, that the helicopters were not near max capacity, and that there was replication within the assault force. The loss of an assault helicopter (and its operators) was almost certainly planned for, so it's possible there were additional SHHHHHH-60s. On the ground observers only saw/heard 4 helicopters, though obviously this is not very reliable information. They were stealth helicopters
There are a few possible organizations that could operate a SHHHHHH-60:
* AFSOC
* TF160
* JSOC Aviation SMU(s)
End………………………………………………………………..
Ok! Language for above and a couple of comments:
CSAR: Combat Search and Rescue
MH-47s: Chinooks * note also called sh#thooks.
SIGINT (ISA): SIGINT (SIGnals INTelligence)monitoring and tracking radio communications e.g. finding a hostage by homing in on the kidnapper's cell phones or tracking a terrorist organisation through its communications network.
US Army Intelligence Support Activity (USAISA), also known as ISA, 'The Activity', and, in recent times, 'Gray Fox', is a top secret Army intelligence unit. The Activity grew out of the need for specialized intel support for US Special Operations that was highlighted by the failed US attempt to rescue American hostages from Iran in 1980.
Modified blackhawks: UH-60 [SHHHHHHHH-60] nickname for SHHHHH or quiet or almost silent. These would have been CIA Helos.
FARP: Forward Area Refueling Point [US DoD] or [US Marine]
AFSOC: Air Force Special Operations Command
The first Stealth UH-60 that crashed would have been destroyed using termite grenades [speculation or guessing]. Also looks like they cut off cell use and phone by using electromagnetic pulse. [speculation] but would be a first but if I recall guy Twitted while this was going on, so did they or did they not use it? Would have to look at time line to see if this would be accurate. Wonder if there will be any serial # on tailings or parts that Pakistan recovered? Made in the USA?
That’s just getting into the place, no word of attack which will probably never know at least for a while.
So waiting for the dust to settle.
By the way Chinese are already on it. Body and tail most likely fabric with no coating?
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shut up and pull
climber
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OH NOOOOO. MICHAEL MOORE -- THE LEFT'S FAVORITE FILMMAKER -- HAS NOW TURNED ON HOPEY!
SAAAVE HOPEY!
FAHRENHEIT 2011? Michael Moore Accuses Obama of “Executing” Bin Laden. “Moore’s a good gauge of how poorly the administration has been managing its victory lap narrative. In fact, one could say without exaggerating that the story has come to feel more like a cover-up scandal and less like good news from the front. Weird.” The raid was handled by the military. The post-raid has been handled by the usual gang of incompetents.
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monolith
climber
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Karl, it's likely the stealth helicopters went in first. The noisy ones would be kept farther out till the cats out of the bag.
Otherwise, whats the point of using silenced helicopters?
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shut up and pull
climber
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Too funny. For decades liberals have assailed all forms of war -- if engaged in by Republicans.
Now, with Hopey as president, war is ok -- Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and the assassination of OBL -- all these wars are just another thing we do. No problem. No protests, no shouting "End War" or "Drop Bread Not Bombs".
Gitmo is up and running, secret prisons still operating, rendition used all the time. And the libs are silent, or -- even defending these practices.
Again -- funny as hell. And telling.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl, it's likely the silenced helicopters went in first. The noisy ones would be kept out of earshot till the cats out of the bag.
You can look at the tweet times above and see the guy heard helicopters 40 minutes before the big Bang (of them demolishing the failed one)
I imagine you'd hear even silenced helicopters when they land in your back yard, particularly if one had problems. I don't know how they breeched the walls but if it wasn't by climbing, it made noise too.
So still kinda remarkable that Bin Laden didn't have time or energy to arm himself and that they only had to shoot a few people out of 20 in the compound
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Geez Shut up and Pull, there's a politics thread where you can post all that stuff.
Are you really losing your mind that Obama is getting some credit for something? I know it's going to suck when he's reelected and you have to wait 4 more years hoping for tea party.
But hey, there's plenty of on-topic criticism for Obama here so why not chill a bit and keep the stuff on the topic.
Note: everybody else is going a fine job not feeding into SUAP here so pardon me and lets go back to all things Binny.
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
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Karl, you are relying on assuming all the info is accurate. Speculate all you want, but no one is going to bring 2 noisy copters in with 2 stealth ones. Come on Karl!
Could be the noisy ones were standing off, near where the tweeter was.
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Gene
climber
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Thanks, Bro.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Come on Gene
Isn't it reasonable to suspect the time stamps on tweets are accurate when they happen to agree with the time of the assault? The speculation is about what other helicopters were there, if any. Maybe even stealth copters make noise when they hover fully loaded over your house!
The guy tweeted this, and it made a lot of news, without knowing what was up and with no personal agenda. He heard helicopters so it's not so far fetched to say they were audible!
Peace
karl
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Gene
climber
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Huh? What was the mortgage on that place? I'm getting confused.
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monolith
climber
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Karl, the tweeter could have heard the noisy helos because he was closer to them. It's not what he heard, it's what the compound heard that's important.
Besides, the tweet times don't look that far off.
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jstan
climber
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Karl makes a point about the apparent lack of preparedness. A large force of armed personnel
could, of course, not be billeted there and still keep the compound sort of covert. But still....
Let's face it. Neither Bin Laden nor the US could know beforehand what they would run into. It is
also possible Bin Laden had reached the conclusion after all those years the US was entirely incompetent. Who knows?
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monolith
climber
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A large protection force at the compound would have given them away sooner. They were relying on stealth in plain sight. It worked for a long time, 5 years. And we knew it wasn't heavily protected from sat surveillance, and I bet, on the ground observers.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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If the Pakistani military wasn't just ignoring or even protecting Bin Laden, I'm really not surprised that he would go unnoticed.
Really, does our military know whose who in a mile radius of one of their bases?
If you never go out, that's that. Pakistan, like America, knows not to bother people with lots of money,
Peace
karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jstan wrote: Bin Laden had reached the conclusion after all those years the US was entirely incompetent. Who knows?
Bush invading Iraq would give that impression.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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A reminder of what is best in life for the movie Conan the Barbarian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc
Probably as good as any summation of what the terrorists feel and from
seeing all the Americans celebrating recently at the death of Bin Laden
its what many of us also now feel. Cultural exchange? Why not.
Crush your enemies. See them driven before you,
and listen to the lamentation of their women.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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radical- He can't say nice things about Obama so he tried to pretend that there is some sort of liberal hypocrisy at play. It all sounds pretty desperate.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think it's fair to say Obama hasn't won SUAP over yet, despite being the best republican-like president in years.
Monolith wrote
A large protection force at the compound would have given them away sooner. They were relying on stealth in plain sight.
I was just thinking of putting up a fight along the lines of three or four Piton Rons!
Kinda funny that those Gitmo guys were made out to be so dangerous they had to be sequestered over in Cuba cause they might break out of high security stateside and go on a rampage or something.
Peace
karl
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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chances are SUAP won't be won over.
but the beauty of its posts is as they get more desperate and incoherent you can use that as a gauge of how good of a job Obama is doing at getting four more years.
say it along with me SUAP - FOUR MORE YEARS!
YIPPEEE!!!
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WBraun
climber
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I doesn't matter anymore who's the President.
It can be anyone now, even your mother.
America has been OWNED ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So who gets the US$25 million reward?
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jstan
climber
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Goldman Sachs.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Are the warriors who did the job eligible, or are they disqualified because in effect it was their job? Assuming that's the case, it would be a nice touch if the $25 million was still disbursed, but to worthy causes chosen by those involved in the operation. Perhaps even including some in Pakistan or Afghanistan - the symbolism would be excellent.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Khalid Sheik Mohammed gets the 25 million if he's lucky.
I don't think he's very lucky
This in from the NYTimes
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06memo.html?_r=1&hp
On Monday, the Obama administration said that Osama bin Laden had been killed after a firefight with Navy Seal commandos, and that he had used his wife as a human shield. On Tuesday, the administration said that Bin Laden was not armed at all, and that his wife had not been a shield, but had rushed her husband’s assaulter and was shot in the leg.
Egan: Let's Clear the Fog of War (May 5, 2011)
On Wednesday, the administration backtracked again. This time it downgraded its initial accounts of a firefight that raged throughout the raid to gunshots fired only at the beginning of the nearly 40-minute operation by Bin Laden’s courier, who was quickly dispatched by the commandos.
What happened?...
They go on the explain how they got the details wrong...FWIW
Peace
Karl
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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"As it is, these SEAL's only pull down about $55K each year.
Ya butt they get to cruise around in cool choppers, shoot people with bitch'in waepons, jump out of airplanes, and ride is subs...and, and... blow sh#t up.
Seems pretty cool to me.
Cheers,
DD
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's reported that the CIA observed the compound from a rented house within view for months before the raid. (Pretty convenient given the sparse neighborhood he was in)
Has to be extra embarrassing for Pakistan that not only did they have OBL living under their nose but also a bunch of American spies too!
Peace
Karl
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The Pakis' embarrassment is a case of alligator tears largely brought on by
laughing themselves silly all the way to the bank with all our billions in 'friendly money'.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I'm giving this topic a rest for a bit. I have no idea what the reality of this situation is.
None, except that I doubt the people who think they know really know.
Here's one article listing 7 major changes in the story. They seem to exaggerate their prose a bit but judge facts for yourself. It's really hard to imagine being mistaken on so many points about an operation that had their undivided attention.
http://www.alternet.org/news/150857/7_deceptions_about_bin_laden%27s_killing_pushed_by_the_obama_administration/?page=1
7 Deceptions About Bin Laden's Killing Pushed by the Obama Ad
I called Bush out on stuff and I like Obama but can't have a double standard.
Maybe it's good that they finally got him, but Pakistan used to be a pretty moderate Islamic state until we invaded Afghanistan and finally started bombing Waziristan with drones. If we even partly radicalize a nuclear armed zone of 170 million, then it's just another case of winning a battle but losing the war by hunting Bin Laden over Afghistan and Pakistan. Giving Bin Laden exactly what he said he wanted via exactly the stategy he outlined.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Pakistan is reportedly saying this should not happen again without their consent. Which is perfect since the CIA has all of Bin Laden's flash drives. We just tell Pakistan we need to do this again but don't tell them who the target is.
Then it is just a matter of arresting everyone who goes to get treatment for stomach ulcers.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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DMT - it's more than double standards, no?
I think there is the rational approach in knowing something was wrong or illegal, and the emotional part of still liking it and cheering it. It's interesting I think. I know my thoughts from a rational perspective and my emotional thoughts and I find it interesting how they are not necessarily in alignment.
And as I mentioned earlier, the incident has made for some bedfellows I would not have thought I'd ever see. Wild.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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OBL was an enemy combatant, the Seals can shoot first and ask question later.
How is a guy in Pakistan unarmed in his pajamas an enemy combatant? Terrorist and enemy combatant are necessarily the same thing.
It's not that I have a problem with them killing the guy in cold blood, and do think he didn't hardly get a moment of suffering, but am concerned about how this enemy combatant terminology gets applied
"On March 13, 2009 United States Attorney General Eric Holder issued a statement that the United States had abandoned the Bush administration term "enemy combatant".[14][15] The statement said, ""As we work toward developing a new policy to govern detainees, it is essential that we operate in a manner that strengthens our national security, is consistent with our values, and is governed by law." From the wiki on it.
Peace
Karl
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I won't mention any names, and I don't mean 'real' bed Coz, but seeing some people in the same camp on this issue...people I would have never dreamed would be in the same camp...has been fun. In include myself in this. I find myself agreeing with some people I never dreamed that to be a possibility. :)
* ellipsis for Rectorsquid. :)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I'm giving this topic a rest for a bit. I have no idea what the reality of this situation is.
None, except that I doubt the people who think they know really know
None of the details are going to come out until all those involved are old men and much of the equipment and methods used used are quaint relics.
There is never any need for intentional obfuscation to obscure the details of sources and methods. Political types talking out their azzes,reporters making things up for a good story and the tin hat brigade will provide plenty of smoke to cover up the important details.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's worth considering WTF we're still doing in Afghanistan. Our own intel estimates there are only 100 Al Queda in the whole country.
So are we REALLY spending billions to take sides in a civil war in a Muslim country that has practically no bearing on us and which has made little progress in 10 years?
We could probably save medicare and Social Security for that kind of money. We must really love those dear sweet Afghanis!
If you are happy that OBL is dead (and I am too) we should make sure his stated strategy doesn't suceed, which is to BK the US in lost expensive causes in Muslim countries like the Soviet Union did.
Peace
Karl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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DMT wrote: I called Bush out on stuff and I like Obama but can't have a double standard.
Yes double standards have been on FULL DISPLAY in this thread.
DMT
Maybe I'm missing something here but can anyone say with 100 percent fact based truth that what Obama did was wrong?
Radical wrote: Obama is very, very smart and makes very good honest judgements.....
Is he perfect?
Of course not...
Nobody is....
But he is pretty damn remarkable.
I thought so from the beginning and all his decisions so far support that...
I agree...decisions make by Obama come from a completely different mindset than Bush.
We lost a helicopter in this mission and we killed the number one terrorist in the world. Clean, sharp and efficient...Obama made the call.
The call under Bush was to invade a sovereign country, 50,000 Americans injured or death, a trillion dollars spend and the number one terrorist living the high life in Pakistan.
I'm sticking with Obama.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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This really eats at the heart of the right wing wack jobs...they just can't digest that a black, left leaning, socialist, commie, Muslim president not born in this country could actually put off something that a real cowboy American president couldn't.
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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Hehe.... Bob.... isn't it great.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nature...yes it is!!
F-ing wankers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What did Obama have to do with it other than saying yes?
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monolith
climber
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He made decisions like remote strike or raid. There was a lot at stake for him and the US if failure. Just saying yes to an operation that did not know for sure if BL was there is gutsy.
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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a lot.
but in a certain sense it doesn't matter. The rush limbaugh following, Palin loving, Glen beck brainwashed of this country have their panties all in a bunch. That he may or may not have done something/nothing matters little on a certain level. There's a lot of Depends that need changing and some of us find it overly entertaining to watch. SUAP?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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That was a non-decision. A Predator strike was out of the question.
A bird in hand is worth ...
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monolith
climber
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A manned or unmanned aircraft could have taken out that house pretty easily.
A raid could have gone wrong, just like the Iranian hostage rescue attempt did.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl,
I can only say to you and the treehugger, disgruntled vet DMT, two words.
Resource domination. That's the reason everyone since the Mongels have been involved in Afganistan. That's just basic knowledge, I'd hope...
Doesn't seem to have done the Soviets or US any good though? You really think we could get any mileage there in a realistic future. Those guys are never going to welcome our asses
Peace
karl
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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What did Obama have to do with it other than saying yes?
If the mission had crashed and burned would people be asking the same question? No, he'd be getting the Jimmy Carter treatment.
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shut up and pull
climber
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OHHHH NOOOO. THE LEFT'S FAVORITE FILM MAKER -- MICHAEL MOORE -- IS FLYING OFF THE RESERVATION!
Michael Moore has gotten himself into something of a semantic firestorm regarding the death of Osama bin Laden, calling it an “assassination” and lamenting he didn’t get a day in court. Moore defended his position (and made the requisite Nazi analogy) to Piers Morgan on CNN tonight, arguing that America is “better” than tracking bin Laden down.
Initially, Moore did not seem particularly annoyed with the fact that bin Laden had been killed, only with the fact that “the story has changed four times now in four days” and that this was an “execution or an assassination,” technically. “I don’t think anyone would go ‘why did you go there and kill him?’” he told Morgan, though he seemed to change his tune a little later in the discussion.
“We’ve lost something of our soul here in this country,” Moore argued, by not trying bin Laden publicly. “Maybe I’m just an old-school American who believes in our judicial system,” Moore said (to much laughter from those who find him distasteful on the right, one must imagine), but “we’re better than them, we don’t just operate in an uncivilized way the way they did on 9/11.” He then went further to note that those who did not want trials for terrorists “hate what we stand for… you hate what the Constitution stands for.” Morgan challenged this premise– as well as his analogy to the Nuremburg trials– by noting that it would not be out of the ordinary for the Navy SEALs to assume that bin Laden was armed, shoot first, and ask questions later, which Moore also seemed fine with, if only they would be forthright about it. “I’m not sensing,” Morgan countered, “that they didn’t admit they killed him.”
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jstan
climber
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SUAP does not even realize how much we learn about him when he expresses absolute amazement at someone not following a "party line."
Something long sought may have been realized. A meat robot.
I wish I had archived the link but a day or two ago I read/watched Thad Allen the Cost Guard situation commander for the Horizon Oil spill. He was there in the White House when W. called "Brownie" in after his superdome mess. Allen said it was a very painful moment.
At that time W praised the effort saying "Great job Brownie."
Allen had very interesting ideas as to how resources have to be mobilized in the face of natural calamities. Ideas I though might be of use for dealing with all sorts of national calamities.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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New answers come out after the 2nd round of questioning Osama's neighbors.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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If the mission had crashed and burned would people be asking the same question? No, he'd be getting the Jimmy Carter treatment.
exactly. DEFSEC recommended a precision bomb strike. obama made the decision and accepted responsibility. the well trained military executed near flawlessly.
all this crap about about an unarmed guy is just that. i dont recall any of those poor souls killed on 9-11 threatening Al Queda with guns.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: Bush made his share of mistakes, but had a higher success rate than Obama.
Yes you are so right, the crash of the world economy, the lowest job gain of any modern president, two wars, the biggest separation of wealth of any modern president, a trillion dollars pissed away on the invasion of a sovereign country and a trillion dollars of revenue given to the upper two-percent.
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WBraun
climber
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Al-Qaida on Friday confirmed the killing of Osama bin Laden
So ...?
Who said? There's no name? Just Al-Qaida said .....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You expected otherwise from Fatty?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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"OH, HE WAS UNARMED".
Oh, that's right, he was.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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the entire government reports and how the press reports thing has been an interesting thing to watch and explains many of the inconsistancies.
sunday night obama gives his address. at that time those were the only official released statements on the incident, other than perhaps some white house staff whispering behind scenes to reporters.
the press then in an effort to boost their market share fills in behind those words what is ogoing on. as part of that effort they call in their "experts" who are also trying to get their name on there and they spout their knowledge.
the next day, despite little more news coming out between sunday night and monday morning, the news all act like they know exactly WTF happened. thats their job. they are not going to repeat exactly what was said so they fill in the blanks. their experts fill in the blanks.
the GUV guys realize they have an opportunity so some of them talk out their ass about a 40 minute fire fight which was in all liklihood over in a few minutes, becasue they want to capitalize on the opportunity.
someone with some intelligence knows that they need to debrief the SEAL team and pick out those facts that will not jeopordize operational security in the futre. that takes time. but in the interim all manner of reports are hitting the streets so by the time we read stories on tuesday, maybe 10% of any report was actually based upon something factual and the rest was supporistion, news filler and drama added to captivate the viewers because no doubt this has been captivating.
this was like the most exciting action movie in real life, with the intrigue, drama and death. not to mention the good guys winning. so by wednesday there is talk of hollywood movies, books etc.
karl, this is how there has been so many differnet stories.
if the GUV had shut up after obama's speach and said that we are not telling you anything right now because it cannot be verified, then there would have been an uproar with even bigger conspiracy theories. why wont the government tell us anything???? they must be hiding something?! i can hear it now and you karl would have been singing that tune.
that is why there have been so many different accounts up to now.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Is this saying the Obama supporters are sheeple, or the people who think he's socialist are sheeple?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Bush: C-
No additional big terrorists attacks after 9/11, screwed up pretty much everything else
Obama: B+
Not cleaning up Bush's budget deficit, lagging economy, and wars quick enough
Both do what they think is right. Both get tons of money and support from special interest at the expense of the American public.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Did you hear about the new drink called the Bin Laden?
Two shots followed with a splash of water. Mmmm!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Bin Laden should have read the fine print about the 72 virgins...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Q: “What color were Osama’s eyes?” A: “Blue. One blew this way, one blew that way.”
“BREAKING: Osama bin Laden to run against Hitler for mayor of hell.”
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/south/UN-investigators-Call-for-More-Facts-on-Bin-Laden-Death--121390609.html
Independent investigators at the United Nations called Friday for the United States to provide more details on the death of Osama bin Laden.
The two U.N. investigators who published a joint statement on Friday said that in exceptional cases force can be used in "operations against terrorists."
But Christof Heyns, the special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions, and Martin Scheinin, the rapporteur on protecting human rights while countering terrorism, said terrorists should normally be dealt with by arrest and trial.
Whether or not U.S. forces met international human rights standards when they killed Osama bin Laden, they said, is dependent on the specific facts. And those facts, they said, need to be brought out into the open.
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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I place my faith in one virgin who is 72.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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i agree piss on the UN, i just found it kind if interesting. when terrorists took down the twin towers all bets were off.
yeah fatty, his trial should be in NYC.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I'm thinking the Bogeyman died a loooooooooooooooong time ago.
We kept him "alive" because he is our CIA asset bogeyman to be used for nefarious needs whenever we wanted to use him. Hey, even on ice he won't last forever. Someone had to kill him and get the credit eventually, and to end the myth, bring an end to the lie. And now he is buried at sea. Gee, how convenient.
Just think about how the story of Tillman changed, it was a massive lie. We now know he was killed in "friendly fire" from a long range, and then he also had bullet holes in his head from very close range. Tillman was silenced. Think about how the story of Jessica Lynche changed, it was a massive lie to bring about a "feel good" story. She didn't fight back, the other men did. Those other men told the truth were also killed off one by one after coming back to silence them. She then came out with the truth to keep from being the next to be silenced.
The story of the killing of OBL has changed sooooo much in just a few days no one knows the "official" story, nor can they keep it straight. That is how it goes with lies. You get in so deep you can't keep it all straight and you have to make up more lies to cover the lies you just told.
Moral of the story: don't lie. Tell the truth. Do the right thing and moral thing always. Don't lie us into War. Don't pull psyops on the American people and the World.
November 2001: 'Bin Laden in poor health, to live for only two more years'
May 2, 2011 by legitgov
http://www.legitgov.org/November-2001-Bin-Laden-poor-health-live-only-two-more-years
CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July
French report claims terrorist leader stayed in Dubai hospital
Anthony Sampson
The Guardian, Thursday 1 November 2001 03.17 GMT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism
Report: Bin Laden Already Dead
Wednesday, December 26, 2001
Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
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dirtbag
climber
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It's all a vast conspiracy, with shady characters, Bible codes, and aliens.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Pizz on the UN and the world court. Our ancestors formed this country to get rid of those concepts.
No, they didn't form this country or come here to get rid of those concepts.
And most of the original colonists were fundamentalist religious fanatics and pariahs who were escaping persecution, not justice. Hell, they had more in common with OBL holed-up in a cave than with you or me.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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And most of the original colonists were fundamentalist religious fanatics and pariahs who were escaping persecution, not justice. Hell, they had more in common with OBL holed-up in a cave than with you or me.
That's really weird and wrong.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And most of the original colonists were fundamentalist religious fanatics and pariahs who were escaping persecution, not justice. Hell, they had more in common with OBL holed-up in a cave than with you or me. That's really weird and wrong. |
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dirtbag
climber
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I'm just trolling you libs
No one's biting. Try different bait.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Thank GOD for brave men like Michael Ruppert who tell us the truth. It was Michael's incredibly well researched book, Crossing The Rubicon, on all the means, motive, and opportunity evidence, that first removed the blinders from my eyes regarding 9-11.
I had not seen this before . . .
A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg
A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by
Michael C. Ruppert
[Copyright 2002, Michael C. Ruppert and From The Wilderness Publications, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/, all rights reserved. May be reposted, reprinted or distributed for non-profit purposes only when this statement appears with the text.]
TORONTO, [Filed January 25, 2002, and Revised January 28, 2002] - EDITORIAL NOTE: In our original story we indicated that the note written by Delmart "Mike" Vreeland had been sealed in court records. We based this on a misreading of Canadian press stories. In fact, the warning of the World Trade Center attacks, written by Vreeland on either August 11th or 12th has been introduced into open evidence in Vreeland’s case in Toronto. Using court records in our possession, FTW has scanned the document and it is available for viewing in this story. We apologize for the error. Following is a revised story which we feel is the best way to present this important information in context.]
--
Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland, an American citizen whose claims to being a US Naval Lieutenant assigned to the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) are being increasingly corroborated in open court, has been in a Canadian jail since December 6, 2000. On August 11 or 12 of 2001, the date is uncertain, after trying to verbally alert his Canadian jailers to the coming World Trade Center attacks, he wrote down key information and sealed it in an envelope which he then had placed in jailers’ custody. This event is not disputed by Canadian authorities. The letter specifically listed a number of targets including The Sears Towers, The World Trade Center, The White House, The Pentagon, The World Bank, The Canadian parliament building in Ottawa and the Royal Bank in Toronto.
A chilling sentence follows the list of targets, "Let one happen. Stop the rest!!!"
When the envelope was opened on September 14th it set off alarms in the US and Canada.
The US wants Vreeland back in the States on a Michigan warrant for credit card fraud - using his own credit card. Vreeland, convinced that a return to the US means certain death, wants to stay in Canada in a witness protection program. His lawyers Rocco Galati and Paul Slansky, two former Canadian prosecutors, agree with Vreeland’s assessment. They should. Both have been the victims of harassment and threats including dead cats hung on porches and car windows smashed out in car burglaries.
The position of the United States government, as represented by Crown Solicitors in Toronto, is that all of this is nonsense. Vreeland, says the Navy, was discharged as a Seaman after a few months of service for unsatisfactory performance in 1986. He has never had anything to do with intelligence according to 1200 pages of Navy records filed in Toronto Superior Court.
"How is it," says Galati, "that the Navy says that he was only in the service a few months and then send us a 1200 page personnel file? Some of the entries are obvious forgeries or alterations and the sanitizing of his records was done so hurriedly that some dates of medical exams in the 1990s were left intact."
In a January 10, 2002 tactic worthy of Perry Mason, with the greatest possible risk to his client if it failed, attorney Slansky got the judge to agree to let him call the Pentagon from open court. Using a speaker phone, in front of at least six witnesses, Slansky first dialed directory information and got a number for the Pentagon switchboard. Then, calling that number he asked the Department of Defense operator to locate the office of Lt. Delmart Vreeland. Within moments the operator had confirmed Vreeland’s posting, his rank as a Lieutenant O-3, his room number and given Slansky his direct-dial number.
All of this is a part of the court record.
On January 17, as this writer sat in the courtroom, another mind-numbing event occurred.
As Vreeland sat shackled in a corner, closely flanked by two guards, the Crown Solicitor sought to debunk Vreeland’s assertions that he had been assigned to travel to Moscow to review and retrieve highly technical and classified documents pertaining to Russian and Chinese efforts to counter the proposed US "Star Wars" missile defense system. [Ed note: FTW believes this to be a cover story.] "Why," said the Crown Solicitor, "would the US choose, in a case involving some of the most highly technical intelligence, a random seaman with training in the tool and die field." The point that someone discharged in 1986 with no special training and rank would be sent to review technical documents sounded reasonable - assuming that Vreeland’s background was as the Solicitor argued.
The reasonableness vanished a few moments later as the Crown Solicitor argued that Vreeland, who has been in jail and without access to a computer for thirteen months, had somehow cracked the Pentagon’s personnel records and inserted his name, an office number, and telephone extension into the Pentagon database.
No one except for Vreeland and attorney Galati seemed to notice the contradiction.
The Crown Solicitor ventured further through the looking glass by then arguing that Vreeland, having certain papers in his possession at the time of his arrest, had memorized Russian and Albanian documents and then had translated them from memory. Vreeland doesn’t speak Russian or Albanian. The judge, noticing this stretch of credibility, asked the Solicitor to restate the point. The argument then became that Vreeland had an unnamed colleague go to an unspecified web site, print Russian and Albanian documents for him, and then used foreign language dictionaries to translate them.
Vreeland’s extradition process could take years and his time in jail has not been easy. There have been threats, illnesses and his every move is watched. Galati and Slansky wonder how long his psyche will hold up. The history of jailhouse deaths of key witnesses leans heavily in favor of Vreeland’s belief that he could be killed at any moment. His apparent strategy is to not reveal any accurate Top Secret material to either his lawyers or the press, hoping that his silence will provide him with some support from US clandestine services. This a standard approach taken in dozens of similar cases researched by FTW in the past They include the cases - well known in research circles - of William Tyree and Michael Riconosciuto. Tyree has been jailed on a questionable murder conviction since 1979 and Riconosciuto on a variety or drug-related charges since the early 1990s. Both men have been directly connected to CIA and other intelligence operations by official documents.
"We don’t need to know and we don’t want to know the secret details, "says Galati. "They’re not necessary for us to do the job of keeping our client alive and in Canada. He faces a special danger in the US because he has also been an informant against an organized crime family in Michigan where the criminal charges originate. The most he is facing there is two years but we believe he might not live for two days in that system."
Additional press reports indicate that Vreeland’s intelligence work was connected to drug smuggling - a much more likely reason for his trip to Moscow. And the history of the relations between Naval Intelligence and the mafia is documented as far back as the Second World War when ONI officers made deals with convicted mafia don Lucky Luciano and his lieutenant Vito Genovese to protect New York docks and assist with the subsequent Allied invasion and occupation of Italy.
Mike Vreeland is one man who, in a rational world, could totally expose the complicity of the US government in the attacks of September 11th. No one has disputed what he wrote and stuffed into that envelope. In a rational world that would be the most pressing and public inquiry of all. The two questions remaining are whether Vreeland will live and whether or not he will ever tell what he knows. That may be a mutually exclusive proposition.
FTW has retained the services of freelance journalist Greta Knutsen in Toronto to report on developments in this critical case for our subscribers. Important updates will be posted and sent out via subscriber bulletin to our readers as they become available.
[The Warning Written by Mike Vreeland Before 9-11]
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg
I don't know if Lt. Mike Vreeland is still in Canadian jail or prison or where he is now. I would like to know. What is his fate? Is he still alive? I hope so. He needs to testify completely what he knows.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Radical said,
Your an idiot Klimmer.
There is so much your mind has to miss to believe anything like that...
The delusional and paranoid ramblings of a crook in jail?
Who when you even read the letter wasn't even correct about anything.
The Royal Bank building?
Total garbage.
And I read it all...thanks for wasting my time
Sorry Radical but you would be the one losing it. I can tell your world vision and reality are being challenged so you result to attack. Predictable, funny, and sad, all at the same time.
Found a copy of Michael Ruppert's follow up article here . . .
From the Secrecy Archives
FTW interview: Delmart “Mike” Vreeland
What the CIA doesn’t want you to know
By Michael C. Ruppert
http://watchman-news.warn-usa.com/free-press/2010/12/24/ftw-interview-delmart-mike-vreeland/
April 4, 2002, 1:00 PM PST (FTW)—If all of its dark alleys were explored, the case of Delmart Edward Joseph “Mike” Vreeland is one which is worthy of a book that would rival “War and Peace.” It is a case that has sparked zealous attacks on FTW and me personally, and one which has seriously disturbed many officials in Washington. These attacks are an indication of the threat Vreeland poses to the credibility of the U.S. government. Only one question of any relevance exists. How was this man able to write details that described the events of Sept. 11 while locked in a jail cell, more than a month before the attacks occurred?
It matters little to a housewife in Kansas if Mike Vreeland has a very confusing criminal arrest record—some of it very contradictory and apparently fabricated—for a variety of petty criminal offenses including fraud. But it may be a matter of the gravest importance for the same housewife if this man knew accurate information about the attacks, tried to warn both the U.S. and Canadian governments about them, and was ignored. If a crazy man runs up to you on the street and says that a house is on fire with children trapped inside, and you smell smoke, who is the crazy one if you decide not to investigate?
The U.S. Navy says that Vreeland, arrested in Canada on Dec. 4, 2000 and currently fighting a U.S. extradition warrant, was discharged for unsatisfactory performance after only four months of service in 1986. But a growing pile of evidence, much of it filed in court records and undisputed by Canadian or U.S. authorities, establishes clearly that Vreeland was exactly what he says he was—a spy.
In three previous stories, FTW has described how his military records, acknowledged to be in excess of 1,200 pages, have been tampered with. We have described how, in open court on a speakerphone, his lawyers obtained direct confirmation from the Pentagon that he was a Navy officer. We have also reported that, as of March 14, all Canadian charges against Vreeland were dismissed. He was released on bail and also granted temporary refugee status by the Canadian government until his battle to beat the U.S. extradition request is settled.
Something that Canadian authorities have never disputed is that Vreeland wrote his ominous and hastily scribbled warning a full month before the attacks, and that the warning was sealed away by his keepers, beyond his reach, until Sept. 14, three days after the attacks.
If he loses his extradition fight, both Vreeland and his attorneys believe that his assassination will occur within days of his return to U.S. soil.
Mike Vreeland is not a saint. Covert operatives are not made from such material, and governments do not recruit or screen candidates for saintly qualities. By his own admission in Canadian court documents and in several conversations with FTW, Vreeland says he has done bad things. He has been on probation for petty offenses, and he has behaved the way covert operatives behave in the real world—not in Hollywood.
I have been studying, interacting with, and talking to covert operatives for more than 25 years. It is for that reason that I avoid some of the questions being raised by dilettantes and neophyte journalists who take all of the threads of Vreeland’s stories and run with them into a wilderness from which no professional journalist could credibly emerge. Yes, I have listened to him talk about so-called “red mercury,” baseball-sized atom bombs, and Star Wars weapons systems. Yes, I have heard him talk about a great many things, and I believe that what he told me was truthful according to his knowledge of events and the documents he brought back from Moscow in December 2000.
Even by his own statements, Vreeland, now 35, was a relatively low ranking officer and an intelligence field operative. Never in the history of covert operations has any government entrusted field operatives with total strategic knowledge because the knowledge held by those who make the plans is compartmentalized and locked away. Perhaps 80 percent of all intelligence work is disinformation, and governments know that their field operatives risk capture, interrogation and torture. Quite often field operatives are themselves fed disinformation so that if they talk, they will still spread lies that serve a larger strategic purpose. Quite often they carry documents that are deliberately inaccurate and their capture is engineered to give those documents credibility.
To the U.S. government, Vreeland is totally expendable. And those who run with every piece of information he has disclosed will themselves be proven fools in a fool’s game.
But one question remains. And it is a question that now stands vindicated by time and events. He knew something chillingly accurate about the 9-11 attacks before they happened. And if he knew something, based upon documents given to him by Russian officials indicating U.S. knowledge, and if the U.S. government went to great lengths to discredit him, rather than bring him in from the cold—then there is real meat on the plate for journalists, the American government, and all of mankind.
I have asked him 35 questions, and now you can read Mike Vreeland’s answers as he speaks for himself. The first 32 questions were jointly submitted to both Vreeland and his attorney, Paul Slansky, for review. The remaining three questions were asked after the most recent hacking of FTW’s website, which we believe was perpetrated by the CIA. This made the publication of this story an emergency and also made a statement about the survival of a free press in America:
1. What part of the U.S. government did you work for? Was it the CIA?
I worked for U.S. Naval intelligence. What the CIA directs us to do is their business, so we have no way of knowing whether we’re working for them or not.
2. Was your assignment primarily connected to terrorism/oil?
Yes, on both issues, in part.
3. Why were you in Moscow and Russia in the latter part of 2000?
I was sent there by the U.S. government and the ONI [Office of Naval Intelligence]. I got my orders between Sept. 4 and Sept. 7, 2000.
Marc Bastien departed for Russia on Sept. 7, 2000. I had orders to meet him. Bastien was going to work at the Canadian embassy regarding diagrams and blueprints of a weapons defense system. The U.S. government had a direct influence on his mission. The name of the defense system is SSST [Stealth Satellite System Terminator]. There are five different individual and unique defensive and strike capabilities of the system. The only portion that I have publicly spoken on is one frame regarding actual current orbiting satellites, which are not at this time owned by the US government. On advice of counsel I cannot discuss the other components.
This one component is a satellite system. Within the confines of the system there are multiple, deployable space/orbital EMP [Electromagnetic Pulse] missiles that are not aimed at the ground. They are targeted at everyone else’s satellites. These would kill worldwide communications. The satellites of some countries that are shielded with titanium are protected from these weapons. The protected countries are Russia and China, but U.S. satellites are vulnerable and Putin has told Bush that the U.S. missile defense system doesn’t work, and that Bush knows it.
The reason why I went to Russia was because I needed to meet with Bastien and another individual from the Russian Ministry of Defense named Oleg. The purpose was to get the Canadian diplomat who had made contact with Oleg to get the book of designs out of the ministry’s R&D. That was done. We copied the entire book. Then we took certain documents, and we changed serious portions of the defense design so the program wouldn’t work. They know this now.
Additionally I was to pick up docs from other agents and bring them back.
4. You told Canadian authorities that Bastien was murdered when?
I never told them he was murdered. I wrote a letter to Bastien around June of 2000 from jail. I sent it to CSIS [Canadian Security and Intelligence Service] in Ottawa, to the director for his eyes only. I had restructured the diagram to put it back in its original state. But I never told anyone exactly how to turn it on and how to build it. CSIS already knew that Bastien was dead. He died six says after I was arrested on Dec. 6. I was discharged on Dec. 9. He was killed on Dec 12.
CSIS sent RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] (Sgt. Mabe, Corporal Kispol) to visit me in jail on Aug. 8, 2001, . . . and they advised me that he was dead. They didn’t say he was murdered. They told me he was dead. I told them that if Bastien was dead, it was murder, and that they should get a toxicology report. And I would tell you how it was done, and who did it.
5. When did they finally admit that Bastien was murdered?
They admitted that I was correct in mid-January.
6. When did you first learn details of the attacks that were to happen on Sept. 11?
In the first week of December 2000.
7. How did you learn of the details?
One document was written in English by a U.S. agent, who had picked up a copy of a document that had been sent to V. Putin by K. Hussein, Saddam Hussein’s son. This is what the translation of the doc indicates. The Iraqis knew in June 2000 that I was coming. I didn’t get my orders until August. The letter said that Bastien and Vreeland would be dealt with “in a manner suitable to us.” The letter specifically stated on page two, “Our American official guarantees this.”
8. Who put the information on the attacks into the pouch, and what would have been their motive for doing so?
I am not allowed to answer that. It would jeopardize the lives of active agents, and it would violate the National Security Act of 1947.
9. After having learned of the details of the impending attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, how long did you wait before trying to notify Canadian and U.S. authorities of the information?
On Dec. 6, 2000, I told Canadian authorities to their face that I needed to contact the Canadian military immediately. I wrote it down. She [the Canadian official] was playing games, so I wrote down that I was a Russian spy and a weapons systems expert, and that I wanted to talk to them TODAY. I said I was a Russian because I figured it would get their attention. The name they had on me was Mikhail Cristianov (Michael Christian), because I had ID that used this name.
10. What was their reaction?
The Canadians turned blue, walked away, and I never saw them again.
11. How did it make you feel?
I was pissed off. It’s on video [referring to a standard jail surveillance/security video].
12. Did the U.S. and Canadian response lead you to reach any conclusions? If so, what were they?
I thought I was dealing with idiots who had no clue about what was about to happen. It’s been put to me that there were certain officials who wanted the attacks to happen. No one ever had any intention of building the system I was after because it would have made the defense budget obsolete. One thing that happened after 9-11 was that the Pentagon budgets soared.
13. Your written warning contains the statement, “Let one happen, stop the rest.” Who was going to let one happen? Who was going to stop the rest?
I can’t comment on the advice of counsel.
14. Does that statement imply that the U.S. or some other intelligence agency had achieved complete penetration of the terrorist cells?
That goes without question. Sometimes certain governments design, create networks like Al’Qaeda, which was really the government in Afghanistan. Those entities create specific problems at the creating government’s direction.
15. Do you know who had achieved this penetration?
I cannot comment on that.
16. Is it possible that the terrorist cells were being “run” without knowing by whom?
Absolutely.
17. The most common excuse people use to discredit you is that you have prior arrests on fraud charges, and there are several press stories linking you to alleged criminal activity. How do you explain this?
The American Express charges are b.s., and Amex has stated on tape that the specific charges in question were approved. They admit that there was no fraud on this card. That card had been issued to Lt. Delmart Michael Vreeland. The Amex people admitted that the card was a U.S. Navy card.
People have accused me of identity theft. If anybody checked with the police departments in the U.S., they would find that there is not one police report form any individual in the U.S. who has alleged that I have stolen any identities. There is not a single identified victim anywhere. Three judges in Canada have denied my requests to have discovery and disclosure on these alleged charges.
The press stories that have circulated about my past are lies. Portions of the stories alleging fraud and ID theft are lies. I have threatened to sue these papers, and the stories have been pulled.
I’m working with ONI. Certain government officials—politicians, brass, and high ranking military—have 11th Amendment privileges and can’t be sued. Another government agency has to go investigate activities connected to weapons smuggling, organized crime and drug trafficking. They use their power to break laws, and we’re not allowed to investigate them. Thus certain parts of the U.S. government designed an entity called UID (Unofficial Intelligence Investigation Division). It was designed by Adm. Jeremy Michael Boorda, who allegedly committed suicide. Boorda put this together prior to becoming CNO [Chief of Naval Operations]. He was not a bad guy.
Intelligence officers are sometimes put into positions where they are given assignments to infiltrate specific organizations that are powerful enough to check out a newcomer’s background. Page 335 of the Charter Application in Canadian Court shows a copy of orders from Southern Command. These orders are dated April 18, 2000, concerning an anti-drug operation we were mounting. At approximately the same time the media released widespread stories that I was a wanted criminal. This was a means pf providing cover and credibility for me with the people I was infiltrating.
18. How many times have you been arrested on criminal charges?
Maybe three. Some of this I did, like a DUI charge in New York. I had been at the UN, and I had definitely been drinking.
19. How many times have you been convicted?
I have never been legally convicted of any criminal, felony activity anywhere. The drunk driving charge is still pending, and I have admitted in open court that I did it.
20. The Michigan warrant for credit card fraud is based upon the use of your own credit card. How do you explain this?
It is a setup.
21. Were your credit cards authorized or facilitated by the U.S. Navy or any part of the U.S. government?
Yes.
22. Could the U.S. government or any of its intelligence agencies have “inserted” the charges through state and local agencies?
Yes.
23. You were in custody in New York on the date the alleged Michigan offense took place. What was the charge, and what was the disposition of that case?
That was the DUI charge.
24. Was working with organized crime families a part of your duties with the Navy?
Yes.
25. Were any of the organized crime families in Michigan?
Yes.
26. For what reason were you working with organized crime?
I was under orders to do so 90 percent of the time. Organized crime supplies the weapons and drugs that go to the people we investigate.
27. Are you afraid that you will be killed if you are extradited to the U.S.? Why?
Yes. Because I have spoken out.
28. Can you explain why the Canadian courts will not allow your attorneys to introduce evidence that verifies your position with the U.S. Navy?
Yes. The Canadians are totally subservient to U.S. intelligence interests. They’re afraid of Uncle Sam. It would also prove that CSIS covered up Marc Bastien’s death, and that there was a cover-up involving a member of a major drug organization that had planned assassinations against prominent Canadians. In fact, one individual was found dead in a vat of acid. He was a hit man.
29. What do you want?
I want my uniform back, my back pay at $4,210.90 a month and my honor. I want President Bush to give me a full and complete pardon and the amnesty of the U.S. government. I am owed that. I want Bush personally to know everything that I know, and what kind of threats there are against the U.S.
It’s never going to happen, so I am now seeking permanent refugee status in Canada and the protection of the United Nations.
30. What do you think will happen next in your case?
I don’t know. My attorney is in court seeking a postponement of the extradition case because the Canadian government will not allow me to subpoena very important U.S. witnesses from the Pentagon and other places.
31. Is the war on terrorism about something other than what the people of the world are being told?
What war on terrorism?
32. What do you think will happen next in the war on terror?
Eventually, someone’s going to have to tell the truth. Once those people are dealt with according to law, there will be no more false terror spread across the globe.
33. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named Rick Wiles. What is your opinion of Wiles and what was your experience?
My opinion of Wiles is that he is a psychopath, who will print anything that will make him money. My experience with him was that I had private conversations with him that he recorded, not telling me he was going to post them on the Internet and sell them to the world. Then once I contacted him and told him that he was not to do that, he said he would take them down right now. Instead of taking them down he placed a bigger ad. He made a bigger ad!
In my opinion he is neither honorable nor professional. He has placed my story right next to a story about someone who talked to aliens 25 years ago. Yeah, that’s right where I want my story to be, right next to some bozo who talks to aliens. The idiot!
So now he’s selling this phony exclusive interview with me for $20 and he’s making all the money. He never had my permission to do that.
34. You have recently had dealings with an American journalist named J.R. Nyquist. What is you opinion of Nyquist and what was your experience?
Don’t even get me started. My opinion: I think he might be working for the government. I did not know that he was writing a story about me. He asked me some questions. I answered some questions. I recorded it, and then he went off on a wild tangent about psychological crap, and I didn’t even read the whole story I was so mad.
He went off about the Russians, and it’s all b.s. He sent me this fax about you saying that Ruppert was not my friend. He was saying that the Russians had me boxed in. The truth is, the American government is boxing me in. He’s full of sh#t.
35. Are all of these statements on-the-record?
Yes!
That doesn't sound like "The delusional and paranoid ramblings of a crook in jail" to me nor to anyone else who is honest.
That is a US Navy Intelligence Officer (our Spy) that knows too much and where the bodies are buried, and TPTB don't like that he's telling the World what he knows. He's exposing their lies.
9-11 (and more) are inside jobs.
And sadly that is how this corrupt sad World run by psychopaths is, and how they run things. Doesn't surprise me at all. These children do as their evil Father tells them to do. Their Father is "The Father of Lies." There is no truth in them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The political right are and will be advocates of torture because their psychosis is ruled by
fear. Fear of gays, fear of "immigrants", fear of people who graduate from the nation's
top colleges (elitists), fear of other people thinking they are "soft" if they don't strongly
defend torture, fear of science especially as it contradicts their biases.
Fear of, in short, anybody who is not exactly like them.
It's about FEAR.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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healyje I don't know where you are getting your history but the original Mayflower pilgrims wanted religious freedom. And they had it in Amsterdam, but were losing their cultural identity and came to America. Plus half the people on the mayflower were there for economic reasons only.
Of course like modern righties freedom to them meant freedom to believe what THEY believed and soon Roger Williams left to found Rhode Island and have real freedom and separation of church and state.
It's a stretch and insulting to compare any of these people to OBL who wanted to overthrow the world and kill innocents to do it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Well, they burned "witches" so it's not too much of a stretch.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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Vreeland is in the slam serving 336 to life for what are obviously trumped up child sex crimes.
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dirtbag
climber
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yummy, Sierra Nevada beer...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The Politics of Fear
Description
What explains the electoral success of Republicans, particularly of the ascendant neoconservatives who now dominate the Party? Based on a thorough and up-to-date examination of the New Right over twenty-five years, The Politics of Fear proposes some provocative answers, including globalization, new technologies, and a far-reaching network of right-wing think tanks and foundations. As the authors show, all have opened the doors to a new politics of fear successfully waged by the neoconservatives.
By manipulating insecurity, the New Right has created an extraordinarily successful populist conservative movement. Utilizing extensive documentation, the authors argue convincingly that the fear of immigrants and racial minorities has served as the most effective tactic in the GOP arsenal, while their approach also implicates gays, feminists, and terrorists. The book explains why Americans have willingly supported a party that promises them security, just as it delivers greater economic and political insecurity. The authors argue that, despite their striking political successes, neoconservatives have delivered to voters a set of policies harmful to working Americans in the way of regressive tax measures, military exploits, tort reform, deregulation, and environmental destruction.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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This is like the weirdest thread ever.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Gary - its not so weird when you realize that Liberals are blood sucking
maggots bent on destroying America. Actually its all fairly clear then.
Cheers on this glorious Friday evening.
CC
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Of course like modern righties freedom to them meant freedom to believe what THEY believed and soon Roger Williams left to found Rhode Island and have real freedom and separation of church and state.
Roger Williams was hounded and persecute here in America and convicted of sedition and heresy for those views - the colonies were largely intolerant and rife with persecution of anyone who did not share their religious views. Again, the founders were largely fundamentalist fanatics and many actively worked to overthrow the British crown and government.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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A toast to started it all, no slack Colonial, you can sleep in peace now. Can’t say you failed on this one. Honour to have known you. 2nd/327 Charlie Company: No Fu#king slack
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Healyje, so how did we become who we are, and they remain who they are?
What happend for us, or didn't happen for them?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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In short? Garbage in, democracy and tolerance out. The US is one of the youngest, most diverse, and heterogeneous countries and cultures on the planet. Old homogeneous countries the world over don't share our experience or views whether in Mideast or Asia. Mentoring in constitutional law from Native Americans didn't hurt either.
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shut up and pull
climber
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PROGRESSIVISM WRIT LARGE:
The world is officially nuts. I’m not sure how else you classify what follows. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany recently remarked on the death of mass murderer Osama bin Laden saying was “glad” he’d been killed. That prompted the following from a German judge:
But Hamburg judge Heinz Uthmann went even further. He alleges that the chancellor’s statement was nothing short of illegal, and filed a criminal complaint against Merkel midweek, the daily Hamburger Morgenpost reported Friday.
“I am a law-abiding citizen and as a judge, sworn to justice and law,” the 54-year-old told the paper, adding that Merkel’s words were “tacky and undignified.”
In his two-page document, Uthmann, a judge for 21 years, cites section 140 of the German Criminal Code, which forbids the “rewarding and approving” of crimes. In this case, Merkel endorsed a “homicide,” Uthmann claimed. The violation is punishable by up to three years’ imprisonment or a fine.
“For the daughter of a Christian pastor, the comment is astonishing and at odds with the values of human dignity, charity and the rule of law,” Uthmann told the newspaper.
Of course the judge is assuming it’s a “homicide” (certainly no proof exists that’s the case) and thus a criminal act. In fact, the Geneva Conventions will clearly show otherwise. Obviously he files his complaint with nothing more than his opinion as a basis.
So you say, it’s one extremist view, why get excited about it?
While the judge’s reaction may seem extreme, his sentiments are apparently shared by 64 percent of the German population. That was the proportion of Germans who said bin Laden’s death was “no reason to rejoice” in a poll published by broadcaster ARD on Friday.
Germany – never a bastion of human rights or individual freedoms – continues to live up to its past with a new extremist but pacifist twist. This is an example of absurdity masquerading as reason, extremism as normalcy and stupidity as compassion.
Everyone who loves freedom and hates mass murderers should be “glad” Osama bin Laden has been killed. He was a monster, just like one which once ruled the land this puffed up pratt Uthman lives in. As much as Germans claim to have been “disgusted” with the “jubilation” over OBL’s death, nonsense like this does them no favor. The disgust on this side of the Atlantic for a country that assaults free speech and protects the memory of a mass murderer by going after those who express satisfaction at his demise isn’t one that I or most anyone here would ever care to live in.
From Bruce McQuain
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Essentially you're saying we had the opportunity to start from scratch, right? Not bound by the 'old world'???
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Gary - its not so weird when you realize that the GOP are blood sucking maggots bent on destroying America. Actually its all fairly clear then.
CC, fixed that misspelling for you. Have a good weekend, it really is a glorious Friday here.
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shut up and pull
climber
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THIS SHOULD DRIVE THE LIBS NUTS.
MAKES YA WONDER -- WHY WOULD LIBERALS BE AGAINST THIS KIND OF LAW?
Texas Passes Bill to Require Sonograms Before Abortions
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Utilizing extensive documentation, the authors argue convincingly that the fear of immigrants and racial minorities has served as the most effective tactic in the GOP arsenal
What they fail to realize, Norton, is that is going to backfire on them soon.
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shut up and pull
climber
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I WONDER WHAT LIBERALS DON'T WANT EXPECTANT MOTHERS TO SEE BEFORE THE BUTCHER CUTS UP THE BABY IN UTERO?
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shut up and pull
climber
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AND OBAMA CONSTANTLY WANTS US TO BE MORE LIKE EUROPE.
“LEAVE IT TO PRIMITIVE AMERICANS to ruin a perfectly good kinetic military operation by taking too much enjoyment, too visibly, in its success. If you believe German political scientist Herfried Münkler, Europeans find the spectacle of ordinary Americans spontaneously celebrating the death of Osama bin Laden a ’somewhat embarrassing’ display of ‘unthinking naïveté.’”
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Essentially you're saying we had the opportunity to start from scratch, right? Not bound by the 'old world'???
Yes, not beholden to or bound by any 'old world' wherever in the world the immigrants - then or now - came from. A hodge-podge of peoples who had to sort out a way to live together with people who were nothing like themselves.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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What you liberal fools probably realize is that the conservatives (nor Repubs), don't hate immigrants. They just don't 'love' them the way progressives do.
Conservatives feel that everybody coming here should have the same opportunities. Most will struggle at first, as happened in the past.
Progressives feel that immigrants should be treated special and given special opportunities, usually at the expense of established citizens.
Conservatives tend to encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle', making people assimilate and join American culture.
Progressives tend to encourage reliance on gov't and non-assimilation.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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the founders were largely fundamentalist fanatics and many actively worked to overthrow the British crown and government.
Got a link that supports that? Maybe you are thinking of the puritans, which were a subset of the pilgrims.
The people who started the Plymouth colony, what I would think of as THE founders, were NOT trying to overthrow the British, they wanted freedom, which they had in Amsterdam, but didn't want to lose their identity.
And the reason where America is is becuase the ideas were often greater than the men. Once you let freedom and equality out of the bag it's just a matter of time until people realize that you can't apply artificial limits to either.
Bluering,
I don't know one progressive who believes the things you just said they believe. You are so duped by the right wing media it's funny.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Conservatives feel that everybody coming here should have the same opportunities
Indeed, bluering, that's an historical fact. Conservatives have great regard for those different from themselves.
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WBraun
climber
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For the materialists there is no complete Freedom.
Only limited freedom.
You're still always somebody's bitch ......
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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categorically total bullsh#t
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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healyje, like I said it depends on your defenition of "founder". One of my ancestors Roger Conant came over in 1623, thought the Plymouth colony was too strict and founder Salem and Beverly Mass. It's pretty hard not to see him a a founder of this nation, and in comparing him to OBL all I can say is that's f*#ked.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i believe healeyj is giving us a quick-and-dirty account of the pilgrims.
"the founders" usually refers to the much later revolutionary generation of the late 18th century that drafted the declaration. very few of them practiced a type of christianity that republicans could today could endorse. many (like jefferson and franklin) weren't even christians.
the confusion arises partly because of a radical revisionist account of us history that's become influential in recent years that argues that the us is not a constitutional republic but rather a christian nation. rather than a democracy built on a social contract between the citizens and the state, the us is a protestant feudal restoration founded on a covenant between americans and god.
this is, to say the least, historically inaccurate. but it's gotten amazing traction, and one of the by products has been the attempt to claim the frankly theocratic constitutions of the most puritan colonies as the true sources of american politics. so increasingly, you'll hear folks like cotton mather described as a "founder."
so hj is giving us a secular, left-of-center revision of language that's become popular on the far right. although i can't swear that was his intent.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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I think it's easy to look at the eruption of celebration that came upon hearing of OBL's death as inappropriate or naive, but I think that misses the core reasons of why people celebrated. OBL was the boogeyman. He was the specter of evil that could reach out from a secluded camp on the other side of the world and hurt Americans in a manner unlike anything we had imagined and then get away with it. It was not joy at another's death that caused people to celebrate, but the relief from that specter of fear. You can argue about the tangible difference in safety that his death may or may not make, but as a symbol he was all that we were afraid of and all that we were frustrated with about the so called "war on terror." And now he's dead and we found him and killed him. And that feels pretty damn good after 10 years of not really feeling all that great about how things were going and seeing little tangible evidence that what we were doing was having an impact.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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bluering said Conservatives tend to encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle', making people assimilate and join American culture.
Progressives tend to encourage reliance on gov't and non-assimilation.
From your posting I gather that bluerings rely on generalizations based on propaganda to reinforce worldviews that they wish to perpetuate.
*edit*
encourage the strength of 'immigrant struggle'
Translation: We treat them like sh#t and milk them for everything they're worth until they finally outbreed us and then we scream "class warfare" and about the threat to the American Way of Life.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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THIS is why some of us are saying that bin Laden has been dead for years.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x312573
Fox News: "Bin Laden Already Dead"
Wednesday, December 26, 2001
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html
The Death of bin Ladenism
By AMIR TAHERI
Published: July 11, 2002
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9405EFDE1230F932A25754C0A9649C8B63
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/11/opinion/the-death-of-bin-ladenism.html?src=pm
Benazir Bhutto named Osama bin Laden’s killer before her death
15.01.2008
http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/15-01-2008/103426-benazir_bhutto_osama-0/
GORDON DUFF: YEARS OF DECEIT: US OPENLY ACCEPTS BIN LADEN LONG DEAD
December 5, 2009 posted by Gordon Duff
BIN LADEN NEVER MENTIONED IN McCHRYSTAL REPORT OR OBAMA SPEECH - “HUNT FOR BIN LADEN” A NATIONAL SHAME
By Gordon Duff/STAFF WRITER/Senior Editor
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/12/05/years-of-deceit-us-openly-accepts-bin-laden-long-dead
Conservative commentator, former Marine Colonel Bob Pappas has been saying for years that bin Laden died at Tora Bora and that Senator Kerry’s claim that bin Laden escaped with Bush help was a lie. Now we know that Pappas was correct. The embarrassment of having Secretary of State Clinton talk about bin Laden in Pakistan was horrific. He has been dead since December 13, 2001 and now, finally, everyone, Obama, McChrystal, Cheney, everyone who isn’t nuts is finally saying what they have known for years.
However, since we lost a couple of hundred of our top special operations forces hunting for bin Laden after we knew he was dead, is someone going to answer for this with some jail time? Since we spent 200 million dollars on “special ops” looking for someone we knew was dead, who is going to jail for that? Since Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney continually talked about a man they knew was dead, now known to be for reasons of POLITICAL nature, who is going to jail for that? Why were tapes brought out, now known to be forged, as legitimate intelligence to sway the disputed 2004 election in the US? This is a criminal act if there ever was one.
In 66 pages, General Stanley McChrystal never mentions Osama bin Laden. Everything is “Mullah Omar”now. In his talk at West Point, President Obama never mentioned Osama bin Laden. Col. Pappas makes it clear, Vice President Cheney let it “out of the bag” long ago. Bin Laden was killed by American troops many many years ago.
America knew Osama bin Laden died December 13, 2001. After that, his use was hardly one to unite America but rather one to divide, scam and play games. With bin Laden gone, we could have started legitimate nation building in Afghanistan instead of the eternal insurgency that we invented ourselves.
Without our ill informed policies, we could have had a brought diplomatic solution in 2002 in Afghanistan, the one we are ignoring now, and spent money rebuilding the country, 5 cents on the dollar compared to what we are spending fighting a war against an enemy we ourselves recruited thru ignorance.
The bin Laden scam is one of the most shameful acts ever perpetrated against the American people. We don’t even know if he really was an enemy, certainly he was never the person that Bush and Cheney said. In fact, the Bush and bin Laden families were always close friends and had been for many years.
What kind of man was Osama bin Laden? This one time American ally against Russia, son of a wealthy Saudi family, went to Afghanistan to help them fight for their freedom. America saw him as a great hero then. Transcripts of the real bin Laden show him to be much more moderate than we claim, angry at Israel and the US government but showing no anger toward Americans and never making the kind of theats claimed. All of this is public record for any with the will to learn.
How much of America’s tragedy is tied with these two children of the rich, children of families long joined thru money and friendship, the Bush and bin Laden clans.
One son died in remote mountains, another lives in a Dallas suburb hoping nobody is sent after him. One is a combat veteran, one never took a strong stand unless done from safety and comfort. Islam once saw bin Laden as a great leader. Now he is mostly forgotten.
What has America decided about Bush?
We know this: Bin Laden always denied any ties to 9/11 and, in fact, has never been charged in relation to 9/11. He not only denied involvement, but had done so, while alive, 4 times and had vigorously condemned those who were involved in the attack.
This is on the public record, public in every free country except ours. We, instead, showed films made by paid actors, made up to look somewhat similar to bin Laden, actors who contradicted bin Ladens very public statements, actors pretending to be bin Laden long after bin Laden’s death.
These were done to help justify spending, repressive laws, torture and simple thievery.
For years, we attacked the government of Pakistan for not hunting down someone everyone knew was dead. Bin Laden’s death hit the newspapers in Pakistan on December 15, 2001. How do you think our ally felt when they were continually berated for failing to hunt down and turn over someone who didn’t exist?
What do you think this did for American credibility in Pakistan and thru the Islamic world? Were we seen as criminals, liars or simply fools? Which one is best?
This is also treason.
How does the death of bin Laden and the defeat and dismemberment of Al Qaeda impact the intelligence assessments, partially based on, not only bin Laden but Al Qaeda activity in Iraq that,not only never happened but was now known to have been unable to happen?
How many “Pentagon Pundits,” the retired officers who sold their honor to send us to war for what is now known to be domestic political dirty tricks and not national security are culpable in these crimes?
I don’t always agree with Col. Pappas on things. I believe his politics overrule his judgement at times. However, we totally agree on bin Laden, simply disagree with what it means. To me lying and sending men to their deaths based on lies is treason.
Falsifying military intelligence and spending billions on unnecessary military operations for political reasons is an abomination. Consider this, giving billions in contracts to GOP friends who fill campaign coffers, and doing so based on falsified intelligence is insane. This was done for years.
We spent 8 years chasing a dead man, spending billions, sending FBI agents, the CIA, Navy Seals, Marine Force Recon, Special Forces, many to their deaths, as part of a political campaign to justify running American into debt, enriching a pack of political cronies and war profiteers and to puff up a pack of Pentagon peacocks and their White house draft dodging bosses.
How many laws were pushed thru because of a dead man?
How many hundreds were tortured to find a dead man?
How many hundreds died looking for a dead man?
How many billions were spent looking for a dead man?
Every time Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld stood before troops and talked about hunting down the dead bin Laden, it was a dishonor. Lying to men and women who put their lives on the line is not a joke.
Who is going to answer to the families of those who died for the politics and profit tied to the Hunt for Bin Laden?
The Magnificent Afghanistan by Johnny Punish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-dGHwe6COM&feature=player_embedded
There she is Benazir Bhutto, before she was assassinated claiming OBL was murdered and is dead already . . .
Benazir Bhutto: Bin Laden was Murdered
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg&feature=related
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Strange how it is that al Qaeda should have only just now released a statement acknowledging bin Laden's recent death. Oh well, no doubt the usual conspirators will hasten to inform us that al Qaeda is just doing whatever the CIA tells it to do, to make it appear that bin Laden was alive until recently.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/06/osama-bin-laden-al-qaida
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WBraun
climber
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You're such a sheep. ^^^
al-Qaida statement.
signed by "the general leadership of al-Qaida"
There was no independent confirmation that the message was authentic
There's no fuking name attached to it ...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There was no independent confirmation that the message was authentic but it was posted on websites through which al-Qaida habitually issues statements.
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WBraun
climber
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You're still a sheep.
It doesn't prove sh'it except you that you believe everything you read.
Hypocrite!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I keep telling you that it is spelled AL-CIA-DUH . . .
http://www.rense.com/general61/myths.htm
The Myths of Al Qaeda
By Kirwan
kirwanstudios@earthlink.net
1-3-5
In George Orwell's classic "1984," his world was held together by continuous and unending war: In the book his concept was defined by video clips of HATE, broadcast several times a day during which the population (in the novel) was required to watch and rave against the ENEMY. Those who rule this nation now, seek to use Al Qaeda as the 2005 version of the terror created in '1984' by proclaiming the now infamous phrase "Links to Al Qaeda!"
Since the war began in Afghanistan, the administration has been using this completely damning and completely empty phrase at every opportunity. "Damning " because the phrase carries all the unspoken horror, and all the unspecified terror that our Bandits want the world to feel - every time there is any activity that the USA disapproves of. "Empty" because nothing, despite Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, has ever been publicly found, no trials have been held that we know of, and no one has been convicted of being part of Al Qaeda - except the dead. So - What exactly is Al Qaeda?
Al Qaeda was created by the CIA, in their offices in Washington D.C., According to Richard Clark in his most recent book. It was created for Saudi Arabia to bankroll Osama bin Laden, through the House of Saud, "in the Afghan war against the Soviet Union during the 1980's and Riyadh and Washington together contributed an estimated $3.5 billion to the mujahideen."
"In late 2003, U.S. News & World Report conducted an exhaustive study titled. 'The Saudi Connection.' Its findings included the following."
"The evidence was indisputable: Saudi Arabia, America's longtime ally and the world's largest oil producer, had somehow become, as a senior Treasury Department official put it, 'the epicenter' of terrorist financing'
Starting in the late 1980's - after the dual shocks of the Iranian revolution and the Soviet war in Afghanistan - Saudi Arabia's quasi-official charities became the primary source of the funds for the fast-growing jihad movement. In some twenty countries the money was used to run para-military training camps, purchase weapons, and recruit new members'
Saudi largess encouraged U.S. officials to look the other way, some veteran intelligence officers say. Billions of dollars in contracts, grants, and salaries have gone to a broad range of former U.S. officials who had dealt with the Saudis: ambassadors, CIA station chiefs, even cabinet secretaries'
Electronic intercepts implicated members of the royal family in backing not only al Qaeda but also other terrorist groups."
"In October 2003, Vanity Fair magazine disclosed information that had not previously been made public, in an in-depth report entitled 'Saving the Saudis.' The story that emerged about the relationship between the Bush family, the House of Saud, and the bin Laden family" (outlined) relationships that went back at least to the time of the Saudi Arabian Money-laundering Affair which began in 1974, and to George H.W. Bush's terms as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations (1971-1973) and then as head of the CIA (1976-1977).
"Vanity Fair concluded: The Bush family and the House of Saud, the two most powerful dynasties in the world, have had closed personal business, and political ties for more than 20 years'.
In the private sector, the Saudi's supported Harken Energy, a struggling oil company in which George W. Bush was an investor. Most recently former president George H.W. Bush and his longtime ally, former Secretary of State James A. Baker III, have appeared before Saudis at fundraisers for the Carlyle Group, arguably the biggest private equity firm in the world. Today former president Bush continues to serve as senior advisor to the firm, whose investors allegedly include a Saudi accused of ties to terrorist support groups'
Just days after 9/11, wealthy Saudi Arabians, including members of the bin Laden family, were whisked out of the U.S. on private jets. No one will admit to clearing the flights, and the passengers weren't questioned. Did the Bush family's long relationship with the Saudis help make it happen?"
With the above as background, consider that Bush junior has sworn to go after all those who shelter terrorists, as well as all those who have been responsible for funding terrorist activities. Why hasn't 'Poppy' been arrested? Moreover - why has the public not picked up on the fact that right up until September 11, 2001, Al Qaeda was ours; we created it, we trained the terrorists and we used them! Why can we not find them now, and why has bin Laden not been captured or killed? In this light "Links to Al Qaeda!" takes on an entirely new meaning. This is not just idle conjecture - there is a real problem here. Bush and his henchmen are in this up to their eyes, and have been, since long before this current episode became public.
American forces are, at this moment, fighting people and organizations that we created, the groups we armed, and whom we continue to protect, from implications in the actions that occurred on 911. So who at the top is "friend" and who is "foe"? When that 'secrecy-protected phrase' "Links to Al Qaeda!" is uttered: Why is there never any proof of anything, and why has it continued now for three years without any challenge to the legitimacy of these empty claims? It appears that the American public has been had - and will continue to be taken down the primrose path (lined with the bodies of the hundreds of thousands that we've killed) - all because we'd really prefer not to look too closely at what our tax dollars are paying for.
This administration needs to answer these questions on the record, the world wants to hear their response, because the facts simply don't add up - they never have.
It's one thing to keep the coffins of the dead a secret from the media, but it is another matter all together, to hide this Bush complicity, with the very people who he says - started this war. Bush begged the people of Iraq to rise up and fight us, when he said: "Bring it on!" That has been done, and the stats to date continue to soar with every day that passes, despite the unofficial news blackouts on the war in Iraq. Bush vowed to bring "all those responsible to justice" - what happened to that empty promise when it came down to his own family and that closed but very special circle of his friends, who all came together to create Al Qaeda and to feed all that hate that keeps the resistance going strong?
The global economic world is about to be consumed by fire, and this charade will melt in the flames of the coming disaster: but these "Myths" are what underlie it all!
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_
business&Number=293235913#Post293235913
Given the crash above, these dirty-little-secrets will all be coming out anyway - there just might not be time to prosecute the dynasties and all their friends unless the public gets involved.
Whatever happens, the government needs to open the books on Al Qaeda now, and prosecute all those who had a hand in this charade - especially the entire Bush family. The public also needs to begin to demand answers about that obscene little phrase: "Links to Al Qaeda!" We deserve to have those "links" spelled out in specific detail, or have the mention of them dropped from any and all future reports emanating from this mythical bogeyman that has proved to be such a boon to thieves who inhabit Washington D.C. today.
kirwan
Quotations from pgs 96 thru 98 of "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man."
The Power of Nightmares Volume 1 Part 1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Clash of civilizations?
It's a sucker's game I tell ya! A total joke to scare little crybabies! Hide under the bed, little crybaby!
Ever so gingerly, even as they praised President Obama's success against Osama bin Laden, some former senior Bush administration officials have sought to take a little credit for the mission themselves. Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, interviewed by MSNBC this week, even called the operation "a good story for continuity across two presidencies."
That assessment couldn't be further from the truth. Behind Obama's takedown of the Qaida leader this week lies a profound discontinuity between administrations--a major strategic shift in how to deal with terrorists. From his first great public moment when, as a state senator, he called Iraq a "dumb war," Obama indicated that he thought that George W. Bush had badly misconceived the challenge of 9/11. And very quickly upon taking office as president, Obama reoriented the war back to where, in the view of many experts, it always belonged. He discarded the idea of a "global war on terror" that conflated all terror threats from al-Qaida to Hamas to Hezbollah. Obama replaced it with a covert, laserlike focus on al-Qaida and its spawn.
Read the whole exciting, riveting yet oh so post hoc analysis here!
Then cry, little crybabies!
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/05/obama-and-bush-two-very-different-wars/238521/
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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You're still a sheep.
Sheep are cool. But are you sure he's really a sheep? Or is that just mental speculation? I suppose he could be a sheep, but he looks like a human. Very confusing
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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FWIW, rumour has it that I'm a billy goat gruff, and live under El Cap bridge. I get my jollies butting tourons into the river, and Ansel Evans feeds me goodies. Some of my neighbours are trolls.
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dirtbag
climber
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Good ol Alex Jones and info wars.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Klimmer you are consistently....um....amazing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Torture
"I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden," said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier -- information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, "they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us," Alexander told The Huffington Post.
"We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information," he said.
In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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You're still a sheep.
werner is sounding like a lonely sheepherder...careful out there MH.
klimmer, if you believe half the sh#t you write on here then why don't you f*#king grow some balls and move somewhere else? how can you stand to live in a place that kills its own citizens (9-11), lies constantly (not just government personnel but entire programs) and hides aliens?
you are one f*#king wacked out dude. AMERICA - LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!
sincerely yours,
hawkeye
you ST government psyops coordinator....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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When are you guys going to wake-up?
How many lies is it going to take?
We funded and created AL-CIA-DUH. OBL was CIA. Fact.
They said they didn't know about the 9-11 and that the threat was imminent -- massive lie. They were told repeatedly before the fact.
Turns out now a Naval Intelligence Officer blows the cover prior to 9-11-01 being an inside job while being held by Canadian police. In Canadian Court records. Fact.
They said we could never imagine planes slamming into buildings. 100% USDA Bull Dung. We have many images of DoD/Pentagon staff using models and War Gaming that very scenario and crashing planes/jets into the Pentagon prior to 9-11-01. Fact.
9-11-01 happened but not as they said it happened. The 9-11 Commission Report is a total sham. Even Commission members have now said so. The DoD and the US Armed Forces were playing massive War Games on 9-11. Then the DoD and the US Armed Forces stood down. Facts. How does OBL our CIA asset do that?
Physical proof abounds that the attack on the WTC towers and WTC Tower 7 was brought down with explosives. Fact.
Physical proof abounds that the Pentagon was not hit with a commercial jet, but something else and explosives. Fact.
The DoD/Pentagon video that was released does not show a massive commercial jet airliner slam into the Pentagon. It was something much smaller. Fact.
We went to war on lies on WMD held by SH in Iraq. Massive lie. No WMD found. The war in Iraq bring about massive lies and cover-up of Torture, murder, and worse by the USA. Plenty of images and film exist of massive War crimes. This goes to the top of the Bush Administration. They are responsible. Fact.
The story of Jessica Lynch was a total fabrication. Total lies for War PR. Many who did rescue her and said so upon retuning to the US were killed when they spoke out. Jessica Lynch had to bring the entire fabrication to an end and confess the truth to more than likely save her life. She was more than likely next. Fact.
The made-up myth of what happened to Pat Tillman. Massive lies. We now know he was shot by our own from far range and then killed at close range. He was murdered. The family had to push to figure this out. Our government lied. More than likely to shut him up, because letters he wrote indicate that the War in Afghanistan was a sham. It's all a sham. Lies. Lies. Lies.
Wikileaks has exposed a mother load of lies about the wars.
The evidence points to OBL having already died back in 2001. He was very sick. Fact. So we are now supposed to buy the massive lie that he lives? He has confessed officially 4 times to having nothing to do with 9-11-01. Then fake videos are released showing him confessing to doing 9-11 when it has been pointed out that wasn't him, and couldn't have been him. Too many massive errors were made in the confession videos. We have fat OBL vs. skinny OBL. They couldn't even get what hand he used right.
Even the FBI does not indicate OBL was wanted for 9-11-01. Lack of evidence.
Now we are supposed to believe OBL was hiding in plain sight mere 100s of meters from the a well known Pakistan military academy? No official images or film released. Elite Seal team 6 did it. But we aren't going to know anything about them or who they are. The raid story has changed countless times. No one has a complete straight story of exactly how it went down. There are many versions now in existence. In fact they are still working on the official fabrication. Then they buried him at Sea. Reeaaaaaalllllllyyyyyy. Does that sound "fishy" to anyone? It sounds "fishy" to everyone in the World. Who makes up this doo-doo anyway?
TPTB have lied to us all along, and now you want me to believe them regrading this raid and assassination of OBL their main go to bogeyman? What are you smoking? You guys are the ones who are bat-poop crazy. (Sorry. Had to go there.)
Now we have unofficial real images and film footage that is being given out by AJ news. Sold by a Pakistani to the news agency.
HHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm. Really?
If true he (fake OBL) was living in very poor conditions, squalor. And who are the ones all shot up? Who knows? Innocent Pakistanis who had nothing to do with OBL? Did they just invade a home and shot-up 4 people in cold-blooded murder? Wouldn't be the first time. We have lots of footage of events like this from Iraq and Afghanistan already. So this is supposed to be real images and footage after the "real" mission? How are we ever going to know? They wouldn't lie to us would they?
Not like that has ever happened to us before.
New footage emerges of bin Laden compound
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4842947
New footage emerges of bin Laden compound
Al Jazeera obtains new pictures showing interiors of house in Pakistan where al-Qaeda leader was killed.
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/asia/2011/05/2011577301766561.html
Pakistan leaks Bin Laden death scene photos
Gruesome photos purported to show victims of bin Laden raid leaked to press.
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/asia/2011/05/201155161514334290.html
Edit:
Classic. Trot out the "Love it or Leave it" arguement. LOL.
No, some of us love our Country, love our Constitution, love our Bill of Rights, and have served to defend it. I'm defending it now. I took an oath to do so.
Some people hate our country and want to sell it down the river. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stand-up and defend it from enemies both foreign and domestic.
How about you?
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dirtbag
climber
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Good morning Ron.
Conspiracy boobies
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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General Jack D. Ripper: No, I mean when they tortured you. Did you talk?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Ah, oh, no... well, I don't think they wanted me to talk really. I don't think they wanted me to say anything. It was just their way of having a bit of fun, the swines. Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras.
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WBraun
climber
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"In the scientific and real world without independent verification it's nothing but a make believe.
In American all you need is TV to tell you so, a country of brain dead lemmings."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: Can't get his head around the fact that both parties are the same beast fighting for competing corporate interest.
What a joke. if you don't see the difference in the parties you are somewhat blind.
Democrats...healthcare, clean air, clean water, workers rights, education, national parks, less military, backing unions, progressive thinking and so on.
Feel free to tell me what the republican party is doing for the average American.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2011 - 02:24pm PT
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I bet that in his last minutes, Bin Laden regretted having the GPS feature on his iphone enabled.
'Osama just checked in at...'
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jstan
climber
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After some of the posts above, I feel at liberty to do a little thread drift here.
From the AARP Magazine
How Money Messes With Our Minds
Science confirms that money makes our brains short circuit. Here's how to fight back
by: David Kestenbaum | from: AARP The Magazine | May/June 2011 issue
Take out your wallet and pull out a wad of cash. Now count the bills, slowly. Rub your fingers over Washington's face. Feel better?
More than likely, the answer is yes. The reason, research shows, is that money can act like a drug on our brains. Just the ritual of counting your money, says University of Minnesota marketing professor Kathleen Vohs, can raise your pain threshold. In one experiment she and her colleagues took two groups of students and had one count bills; the other, blank pieces of paper. Then both groups stuck their fingers in hot water. The students who counted real money reported feeling significantly less discomfort.
Vohs's study, published in the journal Psychological Science in 2009, is part of a field called behavioral economics, which explores how money plays tricks with our heads. Turns out, it happens a lot. The mind's financial guidance systems can go haywire when we order at a restaurant, when we sell our homes, or when we try to save for retirement. "I'm sure every time I go to the supermarket, in small ways I'm fooled," says William Poundstone, who writes about behavioral economics in his new book, Priceless: The Myth of Fair Value (and How to Take Advantage of It).
When we don't have a feel for what something should cost, our brains flail about for a reference point. The old expression goes that you can't compare apples and oranges, but we're actually fine at this. "You never see anyone baffled by the fruit plate," says Duke University behavioral economics professor Dan Ariely, who wrote Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions. "What is difficult is to compare an apple and 50 cents, or $1.20."
Companies exploit these brain-scrambling effects to get us to buy things we don't need. The good news: If you see them coming, you can use the same tricks to save money — and make money. Be aware of the following five traps:
Next: Trick 1 - The anchor effect
The Trick: A high price makes a lower price seem reasonable, even if it isn't.
You sit down to eat at a restaurant. The most expensive steak on the menu costs $50. But there's another one for $25. "Ah," you think. "Just right." Deciding on the $25 steak feels rational. You weighed the options; you made your choice. But your selection was swayed by the mere existence of the $50 steak.
Economists call this effect anchoring. That $50 steak anchors our expectations of what a steak could cost. By comparison, a $25 steak looks cheap. Anchoring is rampant on wine lists, says Richard Thaler, an economist at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and co author ofNudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness. "Suppose the most expensive bottle on the list is $100 and nobody wants to buy it," he says. To boost sales, the restaurant adds a $200 bottle. "They could keep just one of them around. Nobody will order it."
Eric Johnson, codirector of the Center for Decision Sciences at Columbia University, has done experiments with actual bottles of wine. Students are told a random number, then asked to put a price on the bottle. The students who were told higher numbers — even though they know this number has nothing to do with the wine — picked higher prices. "It is really quite shocking," Johnson says. "The more you do this, the more you realize we are really imperfect decision makers."
The Fix: Shaking an anchor is difficult. Put a number in our heads and it tends to stick. Even telling people to ignore it rarely helps. "It's like saying, ' Don't think about an elephant,' " says Poundstone. "You can't do it."
One solution: Establish personal anchors in your mind, says Duke's Ariely. Pick something and set its value. Maybe $25 is the price of a theater ticket. Before ordering a $25 wine, ask yourself if it's worth a show.
If you're eating out, stick to the menu's more affordable neighborhoods. Self-described "menu engineer" Gregg Rapp, who has advised major restaurant chains, recommends finding deals at the bottom or the back of the menu, where cheaper items tend to hide. And if you're wondering whether a menu has been "engineered," see if it uses dollar signs — they make us think about money. "I've been taking dollar signs off menus for 29 years," Rapp says.
Next: Trick 2 - Sore losers
The Trick: Our fear of losing makes us pass up winning moves
Eric Johnson often conducts an experiment in his Columbia Business School class. He divides the class into two groups and asks one group how much they would pay for a mug. The typical response is $4. He gives the other group a mug for free, then asks, "How much would I have to pay you to part with it?" It's basically the same question — how much is the mug worth to you? Except this group gives an average response of $8.
Researchers call this the endowment effect. Johnson still finds it amazing — two randomly selected groups disagree dramatically over the value of a mug they hadn't seen moments before. "It's one of the most telling demonstrations in behavioral economics," he says. "Simply owning something increases its value."
Why? Because we really don't like losing something once we have it: The pain of losing outweighs the joy of winning. It's called loss aversion, and one consequence, says Richard Thaler, is that we tend to prefer "flat-rate" plans, in which, for instance, we pay a fixed amount for a cell phone plan, rather than being billed by the minute. "Nobody likes to hear the meter running," he says.
That principle can make us buy more than we need. Take cars: Many two-car households don't need the second car — they'd save money by owning one and renting a car or taking a taxi when needed. But if we own the second car, we feel as if each trip is free, even though it isn't. We forget about the vehicle's purchase price and its ongoing expenses.
Buying a house is also a kind of flat-rate plan, given that paying rent feels like tossing money out the window every month. Sometimes it is. But it might make sense to rent your home, especially if you don't plan on living there for a long time. (To see if you'd save money by renting, use AARP's online calculator at aarp.org/money/budgeting-saving/rent_buy_home_calculator/.)
The Fix: Once you understand loss aversion, you'll see it everywhere. In the stock market it affects how we feel about a stock we own. We tend to hold losers too long and sell winners too early. When a stock tanks, we don't want to sell for a loss, so we hang on, hoping it will recover. And when a stock is rising, we try to lock in the wins, often too early. Thaler's advice? Pick a sensible strategy — and stick with it. (Consider an automatic investment plan that results in dollar-cost averaging: You invest a fixed amount in certain funds at set intervals, so you'll buy more when prices are low — and you won't be tempted to yank your money in and out as prices go up and down.)
Ariely has a tip for fighting loss aversion: If you go out regularly for meals with someone, alternate paying the bill. The person who pays will feel a little more pain, but not twice as much. When you split the check, you both suffer. In taking turns, the person who doesn't pay is freed from the pain of loss. Assuming the bills are about the same, you'll spend the same amount of money, but you'll cut the number of spending transactions in half. "These are the tricks we can play with ourselves to make ourselves feel better," he says.
Next: Trick 3 - Know your odds
The Trick: We can't tell how long that long shot really is
From a financial perspective, playing the lottery is a bad bet. But millions of us do it anyway, even though we usually lose money. This is the flip side of the loss-aversion principle: The lure of a huge payoff overcomes our resistance to drop a few bucks on a ( probably) worthless ticket. As economists put it, we "overweight low probabilities." That's also why we buy insurance for things like flight accidents, even though the average American's annual risk of dying in a commercial-airline crash is about one in 11 million.
The Fix: Our brains aren't really wired to intuitively grasp the insignificance of very small odds. But there are ways to turn the urge to gamble on long shots to our advantage.
Harvard Business School economist Peter Tufano recently studied a savings plan called Prize-Linked Savings (PLS), which uses a lottery to encourage people to save money. Here's how it works: Credit-union members open savings accounts that pay less interest than normal accounts, but each time members make a deposit, they are enrolled in a lottery where they stand a small chance of winning a much larger sum. And, unlike in a conventional lottery, they never lose money. A group of Michigan credit unions started a PLS program called Save to Win in 2009, but other states currently don't allow PLS-type plans, which are seen as competitors to existing state-run lotteries.
Next: Trick 4 - Instant gratification
The Trick: We want it now, not tomorrow
Quick! Would you rather have $50 today or $52 in a week? Studies show that most people take the money now. But getting $52 a week later is the equivalent of earning 200 percent interest annually. If your bank offered that rate, you'd surely take it.
Researchers have conducted this now-or-later experiment with real money and with pieces of chocolate (the latter study was published last year in the journal Economics Letters) with the same results: Our guts tend to be impatient. Economists call that hyperbolic discounting, and it explains everything from drug addiction to the slow response to global warming. "One of the classic examples of this is people not saving enough for retirement," says Eric Johnson. Shortsightedness might have made sense to our ancestors, who lived in a world of immediate threats. But it complicates our long-term planning today.
The Fix: Just reverse the question: "Imagine you could have $52 in a week. Would you rather have $50 now?" Johnson asks. Phrasing it that way harnesses loss aversion: Now it feels like we're losing $2.
In 2004 Richard Thaler helped devise Save More Tomorrow, a plan that lets workers direct part of their future raises into retirement savings instead of taking cash out of their current paychecks. The raise hasn't happened yet, so participants don't feel loss aversion or hyperbolic discounting. In an early implementation, the savings rate of participants more than tripled.
Next: Trick 5 - Multiple choice
The Trick: Too many choices lead to bad decisions — or no decisions.
In 2000, social psychologist Sheena Iyengar, who now teaches at Columbia and wrote the 2010 book The Art of Choosing, published a groundbreaking study on choice. In one experiment she offered free samples of jam to shoppers. Almost one-third of those who chose from six kinds of jam bought a jar, compared with only 3 percent of those faced with 24 varieties. In another experiment she showed that those who chose from more options were less happy with their purchase.
That effect, dubbed the paradox of choice, changed a lot of assumptions about what consumers want. It also explains why we make — and fail to make — many spending decisions. Faced with too many choices, we develop habits. We pick one jam, one restaurant, one credit card company. And because we rarely examine those habits, we don't get the best deals.
The Fix: Dan Ariely recommends taking time once a year to see if our habits make financial sense. Do we really need the $100-a-month cable-TV plan? Think of it as resetting your financial compass to shake off the mind-altering effects of buying stuff.
And finally, relax. Some money decisions do have right and wrong answers. But what something is worth to you is ultimately subjective. "It's a general problem with life," says Richard Thaler. Is a $40,000 car better than a $30,000 one? Probably. "But how much better?"
There's only one answer, and your brain won't find it very satisfying — $10,000 better.
David Kestenbaum is an economics correspondent with National Public Radio. You can also hear him on the Planet Money podcast, atnpr.org/money.
END QUOTE
An example of trick 3.
When I was eight or nine a first class stamp was only 5 cents I was all set to enter the Reader’s Digest contest. Then I checked my odds. Something like one in 100 million.
I cut the stamp off the envelope.
OOPS!
From the Telegraph.UK
Telegraph.co.uk
07 May 2011
Good sign: organic food shops like this increase the desirability of a whole area and help give it a 'village' feel
It used to be the arrival of coffee shop chains that sent residents' pulses racing for the good times - and increasing property prices - ahead. But the zeitgeist is now firmly related to eating local and eating organic, and there's no clearer indicator of an area becoming what used to be called "gentrified" than the arrival of an organic deli.
"Organic food shops and restaurants are now important when it comes to choosing an in-place to live," says Martin Bikhit, MD of agents Kay & Co.
"As well as pandering to the health-conscious London residents of today, it also sets an area aside from the cloned high streets with the same too-instantly recognisable chains of food outlets, and gives the perception of a more upmarket place to live."
Alex Michelin, Director at Finchatton, the property design company, says: "Organic delis are all the rage now. As has been well documented, it's often the wife that influences the final purchasing decision and they certainly want to live near a farmers' market or an organic deli. It's a major influencing factor."
This summer's opening of the vast Whole Foods store on Kensington High Street proves the significance people now place on being able to access fresh organic produce, and delis and organic cafes have been popping up in less salubrious areas.
One was spotted recently in a back street of unglamorous West Hampstead, and there is a Fresh & Wild on Stoke Newington Church Street, Hackney.
Shops such as Fresh & Wild and farmers' markets certainly add to the ambience of an area and "contribute to the overall marketability of properties", according to Anne Currell, MD of Currell Residential which covers Hackney.
At the other end of the scale, Marylebone High Street is a good example of how the number of organic food retailers has boosted the area's "individualism", which in turn has helped house prices increase well ahead of other areas in the immediate vicinity.
As Martin Bikhit of Kay and Co says, "Organic is not only good for your health, it's great for your property's value too."
Deon Steyn, head of search and acquisitions at property search company Brahm, has witnessed a rapid change in the capital.
"When I worked in Hong Kong, every property brochure sent from London featured the Harrods food hall. Now, purchasers are more interested in local produce, delis and organic food stores."
Currently, SW1, for years more an interior design enclave, has recently evolved into something of a must-visit foodie destination with a farmers' market and the new London outpost of Gloucestershire's Daylesford Organic food emporium.
Finchatton is launching a new property on Holbein Place, a hop, skip and jump from the Daylesford Organic store. "It's opposite the farmers' market and has made the area even more desirable to buyers who are willing to pay a premium to live near it," says Alex Michelin.
In Battersea, it is the growth along the river of smart, trendy riverside apartments such as Oyster Wharf and Falcon Wharf, with Battersea High Street the nearest place to unwind without having to jump in a cab, that has resulted in delis opening to meet the market and giving a fillip to the area, believes Spencer Cushing of John D Wood & Co's Battersea office.
"It has already had an effect on prices in Simpson Street, which runs off Battersea High Street," he says. "Historically, and due to its proximity to a council estate, Battersea High Street has felt a little run-down with shops with faded paint selling cheap and cheerful produce. But there is now something about Battersea High Street that suggests the area is moving up.
"Where once there was a kebab and pizza delivery outlet there now stands a rather smart delicatessen that wouldn't look out of place in Chelsea, while the spit-and-sawdust pub is now a gastropub. We are seeing a very positive movement in values over and above that of the usual house price trend".
Over in Chelsea, foodie addicts can live above a branch of Baker and Spice, the food shop and bakery renowned for its "iconic" croissants, in a three-bedroom maisonette on the corner of Denyer/Millner Streets.
With a master bedroom with dressing room and ensuite, second bedroom also with ensuite, third double bedroom, state-of-the-art technology, and terrace, the price is £2.75 million through Henry and James, 020 7235 8861, www.henryandjames.co.uk.
Fortunately there are plenty of places you can enjoy the good life at lower prices. In SW19, a David Wilson Homes development is down the road from Wimbledon village, which has a Bayley and Sage organic deli complete with two thousand lines of speciality food. The 570 new homes will include studios and one and two-bedroom apartments, with prices from £180,000.
But is all this foodie fervour just another flavour of the month?
"Absolutely not," says Andrew Murray, Director of developers Morpheus. "Delicatessens such as Baker and Spice and so on take expense to kit out, they plan for the longer term. These sort of shops give a place a real village feel which never goes out of fashion."
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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lg- forgot the Deli effect
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
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BES1'st, merely an interjection, not pertaining to your conversation.
Carry on.
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monolith
climber
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Also he left videos of himself watching himself on TV. Yet when Obama comes on the TV he is ssid to have clicked to another channel. Can't take Obama. Obama evil from OBL point of view
Truthers get their panties in a wad over the dumbest, silliest, crap.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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seriously klimmer,
if this country is as f*#ked as you say it is, why do u hang around? why dont you get your ass out of here to some other place?
i know why. first you have no balls to do so, and second your such a whack job that many countries would put you behind bars.
isnt america great?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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seriously klimmer,
if this country is as f*#ked as you say it is, why do u hang around? why dont you get your ass out of here to some other place?
i know why. first you have no balls to do so, and second your such a whack job that many countries would put you behind bars.
isnt america great?
HE,
Did you serve? Did you sign-up and take an oath and put on a uniform? Do you love your Country? Last time I looked the Constitution/Bill of Rights say that I can grieve my Country and my government.
Stop tromping out the tired old lame ad hominem attack "Love it or Leave it."
I suppose you would have said the same thing if you were a German citizen living in Germany when other German citizens did speak up and then were shut up and imprisoned.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Well said
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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But, rehashing the Discovery channel as some sort of expert is nutty.
Learn to isolate arguments. Here we are talking OBL, 9-11 and things related. I did not bring History Channel into this argument.
Bible Code, yes I did. Turns out once again it is right, regarding OBL, dying in 2011: "HOAX"
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Seriously, does anyone care what Wolfowitz has to say about anything? Could the man have been any more wrong on Iraq?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Can someone find a photo of a sheep peeing on a fruitcake, please? Preferably a fruitcake full of nuts?
This was the sort of thing that dear Ouch! was good at creating.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bin Laden’s Neighbour: “None Of This Is True”
Owns the houses on either side. Flat out says not true.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d1f_1304480997
So then, who did we kill? If it wasn't OBL then who are the people we shot up?
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monolith
climber
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Bible Code, yes I did. Turns out once again it is right, regarding OBL, dying in 2011: "HOAX"
Still unable to provide a Bible Code prediction before the event, eh klimmer?
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Gene
climber
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So then, who did we kill? If it wasn't OBL then who are the people we shot up?
Timothy Leary?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Actually, had Klimmer claimed last week or last year that the edoC elbiB "predicted" that bin Laden would eventually be killed by US forces, it would have been a pretty safe bet for him. Too bad he waited to make the claim until after it happened, eh?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The Bible Codes Exposed
Ever since the best selling book The Bible Code, by Michael Drosnin in 1997, a lot has been written about the Bible codes which seems to indicate that the bible codes are real, but they are not.
The main reason is because they do not take vowels into account. The Hebrew alphabet contains only consonants, the vowels are indicated by markings, usually dots below or next to a letter. How many dots and where they are located indicate the vowel and the pronunciation.
When bible-code searches are done, they ignore the vowel markings, which means that the same series of consonants could represent several different words. They merely add whatever vowels they want to make the words they are looking for. Let's look at examples in the English language; the words "quite" and "quit." They have very different meanings but the only difference is the "e" at the end. Another example is "altar" and "alter." Again, words with very different meaning but the only difference is one little vowel. Or "beer" and "bear." Again, one little vowel changes the word completely.
Which means by inserting whatever vowels you want, you can create any message you want; which is why the bible codes are being used by many people to prove anything they want, such as to prove that Dallas James is the prophet Elijah (bibleprophet.com).
The only way bible codes could be legitimate is if all the vowels were found right along with the consonants, which is not the case.
The books that have been written about the Bible codes will tell you, if you read them carefully, that they do not look for vowels, though they only mention it in passing because they do not what you to realize this point.
The argument the decoders use is that the Torah was not originally written with vowels, probably to save space since it was long and written on leather scrolls. The original scribes could read the Torah without vowels because they knew it so well. It was centuries before vowel markings were added. But none of this changes the fact that the coders insert whatever vowels they want. The vowels are removed or ignored in order to conduct a code search.
There is in fact a growing body of evidence from knowledgable people that shows the codes are false. Guy Cramer reports on his web site that he was originally a believer in the Bible codes until Dr. James Price, Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at Temple Baptist Seminary in Chattanooga, TN, showed him negative phrases about Jesus in the codes. For example: "I desire/lust after treachery/fraud, Jesus is my violent name" (http://www.corp.direct.ca/trinity/codebreaker.html);. Dr. Price even found negative statements about God, such as "God (is) an abomination and a diviner."
Cramer said Dr. Price,
"has now shown the ELS Phrase phenomenon to be a random occurrence that happens in all literature. There is nothing special about the mathematical significant occurrences in the bible good or bad. . . . The conclusions of Dr Price's research should end any further research . . . God did not hide ELS codes in the Bible. The ELS codes do not prove divine authorship of the Hebrew Bible. This phenomenon will occur in all texts and all literature.
Several scientific publications have published articles that refute the codes, such as Chance, a magazine of the American Statistical Association (May 1998), and Statistical Science (May 1999), the same journal that originally published the article that supposedly proved the Bible codes. But you don't hear much about the refutation articles, such as Solving the Bible Code Puzzle, by Brendan McKay, Dror Bar-Natan, Maya Bar-Hillel, and Gil Kalai (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html). McKay found the assassinations of Gandhi and Nicaraguan president Somoza in Moby Dick.
The coders claim that the word "computer" is encoded in Daniel 12 where it says the book will be sealed up until the time of the end. But all thinking, descerning Christians should not believe such nonsense. The prophecies of Daniel are revealed by the Spirit of God, not by a computer.
The Bible was given to us as a revelation, an unveiling, which was in stark contrast to the pagan mystery religions. When Paul said, "I tell you a mystery" he was revealing that which had not been clearly known prior to his teaching-- which is the purpose of the Bible; the Bible is God's revealed Word, not his hidden word. That which is not clear in the Bible, is revealed by the Holy Spirit, therefore we have no use for Bible codes.
The coders say that you cannot use the codes to predict the future. If the codes were genuine, you could use them to predict the future. After all, if there is an event in the Bible codes, then why would it not come to pass? The reason you cannot predict the future with the codes is because, it is not just events that have happened which can be found in the codes, but events that have never happened. For example you could find "Franklin Roosevelt assassinated," or "Noble Peace prize Hitler." Why could you find events that never happened in the codes, because there are no actual events in the codes. Remember, the words only contain consonants and no vowels, so by adding the proper vowels, you can create any statement you want.
Prior to 2000 there was a web site that contained numerous search results showing great calamity coming upon the world because of Y2K (http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/code2r.htm). The code search found: millennium, bug, destruction, electricity, powergrid (failure), telecommunication, panic, terror, dread, famine, hunger, starvation, plague, death, and more. We know that none of these events happened, which is strong evidence against the codes. The page has since been removed.
The UnMuseum reports that one of the men that actually promotes the codes admits that "the assassination of Winston Churchill, who wasn't killed at all but died of natural causes" can be found in the codes.
Therefore, the Bible codes, or what they supposedly are, can tell us nothing for sure, nothing absolute, which is the opposite of the Bible because the Bible contains absolute truth (when properly interpreted). The codes can tell us nothing about God, and nothing about the future, so they are of no use to thinking Christians.
If all the above is not enough for you, most of the findings in the codes are done with large ELS skips. Which is, the code programs will search skips up to 1,500 skips! This means there are up to 1,500 consonants between each letter that is used to spell a word! WOW! Think about that a minute. Is there any word or phrase that could not be found in the codes using that method?
http://www.bibleprophecyrevealed.us/main/codes2.html
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slidingmike
climber
CA
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THIS JUST IN: Photo released from Bin Laden's funeral service...
That should put all doubts to rest
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Gene
climber
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The Klimmer News Network (KNN) today revealed a major breakthrough in the search for the leadership of the vast conspiracy involving Masons, Illuminati, Dead Heads, Mother Teresa, and the site managers of MoonArc.com.
For the first time we have learned that the leadership of all intergalactic conspiracies can only be selected from those born on February 29.
The special bulletin from KNN states that this allows the secretive leadership to live to the age of 280 years in accordance with the Biblical ‘four score and ten,' thus ensuring conspiratorial continuity. Nostradamus was unavailable for comment.
KNN also apologized that their consultant, Werner Braun, was unable to comment on this story. Due to differences in time zones, Mr. Braun was asheep.
Other news organizations have yet to crack the Bible code that gave KNN this breaking story.
Stay tuned.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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OBL does not disavow being involved in other attacks prior to 9-11-01 against the US, no doubt he was a bad man. He was our bad man though. He was at onetime our CIA asset, if not to his very end. However, he does disavow 9-11-01, and he did so officially like 4 times or so.
Say what you will, he did hate the USA, but he was still Islamic in faith according to his beliefs. He did things according to his faith. I don't agree with it at all, but he prided himself on taking credit for what he did do. In that regard he was an honest man. He did take credit for other attacks. Why would he not take credit for the biggest of them all if he did indeed do it? Because he didn't do it. He knew that he was their go to bogeyman and would get blamed for things he wasn't even involved in. He admitted that publically.
“In a statement issued to the Arabic satellite channel Al Jazeera, based in Qatar, bin Laden said, "The U.S. government has consistently blamed me for being behind every occasion its enemies attack it.
"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks, which seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons," bin Laden's statement said.”
Even then OBL, knew that 9-11 was an inside job, “. . . seems to have been planned by people for personal reasons.”
No they did not want him alive to talk. He was our once CIA asset, and they did not want him to ever get in front of a court of law and say all that he knew. Nope. Was never going to happen. But having died in 2001, he was still a very useful bogeyman asset even dead. No one else had to know. (But we did anyway.)
"Dead (CIA) Men Tell No Tales"
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Hey skip, had the raid failed and nobody returned, would the right wing still be saying Obama had nothing to do with it?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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klimmer i served. when i was done i threw all of my military fatigues in the nearest dumpster because of the war i was in.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Regarding Bible Code.
It is real no matter what you say.
Many honest statisticians and others who even work Secret Code for government agencies have said so. It is simply beyond chance.
Everyone can see it for themselves.
It can predict, but then you have to know exactly what to search for. Many instances where that has been done.
But pulling it up after the fact, isn't so we can use it as a tool of prediction, but to show people GOD's word is just that -- GOD'S word. He knows all, even before it happens. It is verification his word is true.
But it does indeed shine a very bright light on things also, so that we know the truth of the matter . . .
9-11, and "SPIES KNEW," and "MISSILES" means inside job. Turns out many spies knew about 9-11 before it happened and one even said so before it happened, and told Canadian authorities before 9-11 occurred , and this is in Court Records (Lt. Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland).
Oh yea, we weren't supposed to know about the missiles. Evidence seems to show that a missile did hit the Pentagon. Also video image does indeed show that both towers had "light-ups" just before either "commercial" jet-airliner ever even touched the buildings immediately before impact just in front of the nosecones of both jet aircraft. How do commercial jets possibly fire off missiles and do that? A very big to do has been made about this. One of the first discoveries when people started to figure out 9-11 truth. It is all in the video that has been shot by eye-witnesses.
And now BIN LADEN DEAD, 2011, and HOAX show up together in Bible Code. Is it a wonder? Not really if you believe in the Sovereign nature and Omnipotence, and Omniscience of GOD. He wants us to know the truth about things. He does want to help us.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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so is your interpretation that the bible is evil? or have you just forgotten your meds the last week?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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NOPE, Klimmer.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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How is the Bible evil? How would Bible Code be evil? How would knowing the truth about events through history be evil?
Bible Code is like a Cosmic Newspaper with breaking Headlines, to be used across all Space and Time.
Some believe that all of history is Coded in The Torah.
It isn't meant to be used as a crystal ball but a way to show all creation GOD's Omnipotence. He knows all, even before it happens. Apparently he can go through Space and Time and see the future.
Einstein (special relativity and general relativity), Hawkings, Kaku and others can help us understand how that might be possible. Deep stuff.
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Gene
climber
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To Klimmer, with respect.
You are a nut case. Keep it up.
The parts of this song that made me think of you is here:
Oh when you were young
Did you question all the answers
Did you envy all the dancers
Who had all the nerve
Look round you NOW
You must go for what you wanted
Look at all my friends who did and got what they deserved
And there's so much time to make up
Everywhere you turn
Time we have wasted on the way
So much water moving
Underneath the bridge
Let the water come and carry us away
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EI2of1PTW4
g
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Deep stuff
no, not really deep stuff. but there is a "deep en"d which you have drowned in.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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coz, no need to report.
the aliens on the dark side of the moon have klimmer in their sites for further psyops and plan on turning him into the biological carrier of one of their own.
the unfortunate part is that klimmer may end up as one of those hidden bodies in area 51, frozen and crated up for future study.
of course the only thing that we will here is that he went on a hike ad turned up missing. the only thing that Werner will find on his trail is sheeps wool....
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WBraun
climber
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You guys take klimmer to fuking serious.
Almost to a paranoid level .....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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no sir mr werner sir.
i mean i dont see any sheep out in front of me...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Hopefully no one here is pulling the wool over anyone else's eyes...
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WBraun
climber
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Sure ya are ... you're paranoid.
I can see it from here.
I tunneled thru the internet and came out your computer and saw.
It's piss easy to do.
You too can learn how from this whack job site,
http://you'vebeenowned.com
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1485109&msg=1490821#msg1490821
The Naval Intelligence Officer (NIO), Lt. Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland, said what would happen before it happened. Said he knew. Wrote it down. Sealed it in an envelope and gave it to his Canadian captors. After 9-11-01 they opened it. He had the attack on the WTC Towers correct. He had the attack on the Pentagon correct. There is evidence that the one Commercial Jet shot down, yes I said shot down, was very possibly headed for the White House. He told them who he was. This all came out in Canadian Court, and it is in the written court record. They know who he is. They also know that he did indeed work at the Pentagon. They called the Switch Board operator live in court and sure enough, that person found his record, office, and telephone number. OOOOooooopppsssiiieeeee. Guess the Pentagon and TPTB didn't clean all the records of his employement. OOOOooooppppsss.
A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg
Also note how he said in the hand written document they would make him out to seem as though he was crazy, and they would attack his reputation and credibility . . .
Wow, they (TPTB) had 1200 pages on someone who was only in the service for a few months. Lol.
Man, sometimes TPTB are real ding-bats.
I'm just gonna let Jesus put you in your place . . .
Matthew 17:17 (KJV)
"Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?"
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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werner,
i tried your website, COOL!
i saw that you been surfin for sheep. dont tell your wife....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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lol.
so bush got her done and wanted obama to take the cred?
lol
none of the guv reports polished to a stone, pakis totally surprised.
yeah, looks like a lot of planning went into the message.
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jstan
climber
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As has been suggested by others, the government should have had no release of information beyond Obama's address. The reason being that saying more might provide the enemy intelligence they would otherwise not get. I think Obama did miss the boat there. There should have been explicit instructions that any requests for further information be referred to the President. As to how much information the administration can provide Congress, that is a subject deserving of much thought and consultation.
During the second war personnel were instructed to keep entirely secret where they were being sent. So the enemy could not piece together a projection of troop movements.
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WBraun
climber
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This is what one guy said to Mike Rupert, .... interesting?
I am a molecular biologist and I've built a lucrative career in human genetics. I have run one of the world's largest and most productive DNA genotyping facilities and now I am helping to build the global market for clinical whole human genome sequencing for the world's largest human genome sequencing facility. I have worked with the absolute best genome scientists from the military, academia, medicine, and industry from around the world. I know DNA. And, one thing I know about DNA is that you cannot, repeat CANNOT: take a tissue sample from a shot-in-the-noggin-dead-guy in a north central Pakistan special forces op, extract the DNA, prepare the DNA for assay, test the DNA, curate the raw DNA sequence data, assemble the reads or QC the genotype, compare the tested DNA to a reference, and make a positive identity determination…. all in 12 hours- let alone transport the tissue samples all the places they'd need to have gone in order to get this done.
Some might try to argue that ruggedized, field ready kits could test a DNA sample- which is true if one is attempting to determine the CLASS of a bacteria. It is not true if one is trying to determine the specific identity of an individual. Any way you slice it, the real work would require days, and I find it unlikely (although not impossible) that an aircraft carrier would have a laboratory outfitted for this kind of work… it is not the Starship Enterprise out there.
So, maybe they did get Osama. But there is no f*#king way they had any genetic proof of it by the time they dumped the body over the side. What is it that we are not supposed to see with all this distraction? I think the French call it "legerdemain".
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WBraun
climber
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It says Quote:
"DNA matching isn't an exact science, and sibling matching is slightly more inexact."
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monolith
climber
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Yep, the more extensive testing can happen later. One will have to be satisfied with 99 percent till then.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I will agree. We do not know everything. We are being lied to in many, many ways. The truth of it all is very obscurred. But one thing that is more often true than not is follow the money . . .
Here is another angle:
OBL was the go to CIA terrorist bogeyman. Pakistan and Afghanistan are much more involved secretly in this "War on Terrorism" and not in a good way. But they play along for money and profits. Could Pakistan really know more about this raid and staged assassination than they let on? I think so.
Once you have the bogeyman terrorist and we can make it up as we go, then we can use it as a card to get into any country ("you are either with us or against us" -- Bush 2) we want to for their rich natural resources.
And now what are we really doing in Libya? Is it really all humanitarian? I don't think so.
The Real Reason for NATO Attacking Gaddafi's Libya EXPOSED!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x581763
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn__tMbhQHU
Some believe it is about protecting civilians, others say it is about oil, but some are convinced intervention in Libya is all about Gaddafi's plan to introduce the gold dinar, a single African currency made from gold, a true sharing of the wealth.
"It's one of these things that you have to plan almost in secret, because as soon as you say you're going to change over from the dollar to something else, you're going to be targeted," says Ministry of Peace founder Dr James Thring. "There were two conferences on this, in 1986 and 2000, organized by Gaddafi. Everybody was interested, most countries in Africa were keen."
The endless "War on Terror" and "Terrorism" is about MIC record profits, and a great excuse at anytime to invade a sovereign country under the guise of fighting terrorism to go after that countries rich natural resources.
That is the name of the game.
Turns out:
Endless War, the MIC makes record profits.
Afghanistan is loaded with rich natural mineral wealth and we need the gas pipeline route.
Iraq is rich in oil, more than the Saudi Arabian peninsula perhaps.
Libya has some oil and a treasure of gold, and we don't want them to use a or set-up a gold standard for the purchasing of oil.
It's not really about terrorism at all. Terrorism is just the "grease" to get it all started.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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This thread hit the crapper...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I have a great deal of respect for Naom and I'm willing to listen . . .
Noam Chomsky: Reaction to bin Laden’s Death
Saturday, 07 May 2011 16:40
http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/10557-noam-chomsky.html
It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.”
In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”
Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.
There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.
There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.
Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”
There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.
Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor emeritus in the MIT Department of Linguistics and Philosophy. He is the author of numerous best-selling political works. His latest books are a new edition of Power and Terror, The Essential Chomsky (edited by Anthony Arnove), a collection of his writings on politics and on language from the 1950s to the present, Gaza in Crisis, with Ilan Pappé, and Hopes and Prospects, also available as an audiobook.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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(although not impossible) that an aircraft carrier would have a laboratory outfitted for this kind of work… it is not the Starship Enterprise out there no it has more than enterprise......
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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a friend who lurks here wanted me to post amidst all this blissful ignorance.
hey, i have my issues with alex jones, but i think this is a fairly "credible" (as far as it goes) to-do:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag.html
bin laden is an open secret, just as most of the facts of 9/11 are. nothing to be done about--those in power are too powerful to challenge. sit back, go climbing, and understand that, while god may well be in his heaven, all's not right with the world.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The words "Congressional Approval" implies all or most members of both houses of
Congress were fully and truthfully briefed by the Bush Administration prior to the vote.
This was not the case, as only a very few select top ranking members were sold the paranoid fear story, complete with truth stretching, and they then "briefed" the rest of congress.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Coz, you are a reasonable and intelligent person. I think your assessment of Chomsky would be different if you were to read his books. Regarding Osama's many crimes, there is no doubt that, as Chomsky says, they pale in comparison to Bush's. Don't forget that Osama became who he was with US funding in the battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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If 9-11 was investigated openly and within the International community in a World Court and not by US agencies that are possibly involved in 9-11, Noam would beleive 9-11 truth just as the rest of the World would. But we just can't look at it and ask questions, certainly not in a court of law, if the US government has anything to do with it.
The evidence that has been discovered by brave souls indicates an inside job. The evidence is overwhelming.
Just 3 small points. Answer me this:
How did Naval Intelligence Officer (NIO), Lt. Delmart Edward "Mike" Vreeland (who is our spy) know about the 9-11 false-flag and named many of the targets prior to 9-11 and gave that information to Canadian authorites? And now, in Canadian Court records.
A White Knight Talking Backwards
SPY CASE IN CANADIAN COURTS SUGGESTS US NAVAL OFFICER HAD FOREKNOWLEDGE OF 9-11
by Michael C. Ruppert, Author of Crossing The Rubicon
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_25_02_revised_012802_vreeland.html
http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/01_28_02_vreeland.jpg
How did OBL know to pull-off the "Big Day," "The Big Party," (assuming he was involved, which he wasn't) on the same day when just by shear chance our DoD and Armed Forces were involved in many War Games on a grand scale and some of which were doing that very scenerio, slamming jets into buildings. How did he do that? Man, what are the odds? Boy, he has some incredible intel to do so.
Then how did OBL mastermind and get our DoD and Armed Forces to stand-down on 9-11? We even have Dick Cheney on record telling a US Air Force personnel that the orders haven't changed have you heard anything different? (don't shoot down the aircraft approaching the Pentagon at high speed). Geeee, Dick was even getting a little testy. Can you say stand-down? Sure you can.
OBL is brilliant. He must have done it all with a TV remote in his hand.
His war and terrorist strategies should be studied in War Colleges the World over. He was absloutely brilliant and then on a shoe-string budget even.
Yea, OBL was able to do all of that. (Sarcasm)
And you guys call me the nut-job?
Why do you all continue to believe in fairy tales that our US gov insists the world to continue to believe in?
One of the best false-flag articles I have seen in a while:
False Flags: An American Tradition
Saturday, 07 May 2011 08:03
http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/10546-false-flags.html
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: Just to be clear, congressional approval means the entire congress participated in a war crime. I do not believe Bush is a war criminal, throwing Bush under the bus, seems a bit political and cowardly.
Don't worry...Cheney and Rumsfeld belong under the bus with him.
WMD's=Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld=lies.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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coz, chomsky's reputation (and appointment at mit) in linguistics continues despite rather than because of his wingnut commentaries on a wide array of other topics unrelated to his academic work. you'll notice that once he retired from linguistics, he didn't get an appointment in political science at harvard.
"intelligence" just isn't a general category. folks can be really smart at one thing and insanely stupid in another. see it all the time. pretty common here at old ivy-covered st.
"intelligence" is more like athletics or some other skill. folks who excel at powerlifting seldom do well at ultra-running. someone who is good at horseshoes is likely to suck at fencing.
can't believe this thread is still going.
of course, i just bumped it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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"I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden," said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier -- information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, "they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us," Alexander told The Huffington Post.
"We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information," he said.
In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment.
"Had we handled some of these sources from the beginning, I would like to think that there’s a good chance that we would have gotten this information or other information," said Steven Kleinman, a longtime military intelligence officer who has extensively researched, practiced and taught interrogation techniques.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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In a 2006 study by the National Defense Intelligence College, trained interrogators found that traditional, rapport-based interviewing approaches are extremely effective with even the most hardened detainees, whereas coercion consistently builds resistance and resentment.
"Had we handled some of these sources from the beginning, I would like to think that there’s a good chance that we would have gotten this information or other information," said Steven Kleinman, a longtime military intelligence officer who has extensively researched, practiced and taught interrogation techniques.
Hindsight is 20/20.
And don't you think we probably tried the "rapport-based" crap first, and only resorted to 'enhanced' techniques after that failed???
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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You know I went looking for Bush's new book in the bookstore, found it . . .
No doubt about it that the Neo-cons are War criminals. All of them.
Obama better think straight or he is heading in the same direction. Executive privilege is a joke. It is an attempt to get around the law. If you do the crime you need to pay the time.
Presidents are not above the law.
And no one gets away with it. If justice isn't served in this life, it will be on Judgement Day. All lies will be exposed for all to see.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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all this talk of war crimes... maybe someone ought to take a look at what constitutes a war crime...
even Wikipedia has a pretty good discussion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime
War Crimes are those serious violations of the rules of customary and treaty law concerning international humanitarian law that have become accepted as criminal offences for which there is individual responsibility. Colloquial definitions of war crime include violations of established protections of the laws of war, but also include failures to adhere to norms of procedure and rules of battle, such as attacking those displaying a peaceful flag of truce, or using that same flag as a ruse of war to mount an attack...War crimes include such acts as mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilians. War crimes are sometimes part of instances of mass murder and genocide though these crimes are more broadly covered under international humanitarian law described as crimes against humanity.
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Under the Nuremberg Principles, war crimes are different from crimes against peace which is planning, preparing, initiating, or waging a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances. Because the definition of a state of "war" may be debated, the term "war crime" itself has seen different usage under different systems of international and military law. It has some degree of application outside of what some may consider to be a state of "war," but in areas where conflicts persist enough to constitute social instability.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Waterboarding is torture and torture is a War Crime no matter what way you try to warp it, denie it, excuse it, or discuss it. WAR CRIME. WE signed on and said we would never do that. OOOOoooooopppppsssssssiiiiiieeeeee. We lied.
People are waking up more and more. It is hard to do. It hurts to know the truth. But you will be better for it when you push through the horror of it and the grief.
Too many people want to just hide from it and call everyone who thinks or knows about 9-11 Truth "Conspiracy Nuts" or worse. It is a knee-jerk reaction that takes no thought was so ever.
Sorry, you can't say that anymore. Too many Military, Intelligence Officers, Government Officials, and many more people in a position to know do indeed know that 9-11-01 was a massive false-flag inside job and are saying so. Why? The evidence says so. The means, motive, opportunity, and the physical empirical evidence says so, if you honestly take a look at all of it without ignoring any of it. You have to take a good honest long hard look. If you are not willing to do that, then you will not know.
So there fore, OBL couldn't have done this, nor could he have done this by himself. Just like Lee Harvey Oswald, OBL was the go to "fall guy" and "insta terrorist." He was their canned patsy. In false-flags you always have to have a patsy to take the blame and distract from the real culprits and the real criminals.
You can't call these people nuts, whack-jobs, conspiracy theorists or any other stupid ad hominem names . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility. I welcome it.
— John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address Jan. 20, 1961
Here is a new addition to the growing list . . .
http://patriotsquestion911.com/#MScheuer
Michael Scheuer, PhD – Former Chief of the CIA's bin Laden unit (aka Alec Station), the Osama bin Laden tracking unit at the Counterterrorism Center 1996 - 1999. Special Adviser to the Chief of the bin Laden unit, September 2001 to November 2004. 22-year CIA career. Currently author, political analyst and media commentator. Adjunct Professor of Security Studies, Georgetown University. Former Senior Fellow at the Jamestown Foundation, writing regularly for its online publication Global Terrorism Analysis. Author of Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America (2002, originally published anonymously), Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror (2004, originally published anonymously), Marching Toward Hell: America and Islam After Iraq (2008)
Interviewed by Judge Andrew Napolitano on Fox News 10/9/10:
Michael Scheuer: What the Colonel (Anthony Shaffer, former Chief of the Army’s Controlled HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Program) is absolutely correct on is that the 9/11 Commission and the Commissioners themselves were just there to whitewash it. They were blessed with the most brilliant staff you could imagine. But as Commissioners they were clearly there to not let the American people know what happened before 9/11.
Judge Napolitano: Was the 9/11 Commission report a whitewash as Colonel Shaffer says and as one of the 9/11 Commissioners to whom he spoke, and you heard him talk about this person, pretty much agrees?
Michael Scheuer: It was a whitewash and a lie from top to bottom, Judge
Judge Napolitano: What do you mean "a lie from top to bottom", Michael?
Michael Scheuer: Well in my own case, sir, the Agency officers who were involved before 9/11 in chasing bin Laden decided that we could not simply testify under oath without providing supporting documentation. And so all of us, both testified under oath. I did, I think three times and provided documents. I provided myself, let me speak just for myself here, Judge, I provided a three inch binder with over 400 pages of documentation -- not my notes, but official government documents about the failures before 9/11. I never heard one word back from Zelikow. And I approached Zelikow. He asked me for the notebook. I told him it was available. He asked me for it and he never got in touch to talk about one page of material.
Judge Napolitano: You obviously know what was in the loose leaf and I know you read the 9/11 Commission report. Did anything from the loose leaf make its way into the final report?
Michael Scheuer: ... Not the important stuff. The important stuff did not. ...
At 11:25 of the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9DQ4EpgYzY
Bio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scheuer
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Bleuy....
You just don't get it.
I get it. You don't! You just postulate crap and throw out stupid comments without giving a meaningful personal opinion of your own.
You sit on the fence and spew crap like a coward. Piss off!
EDIT:
No doubt about it that the Neo-cons are War criminals. All of them.
Obama better think straight or he is heading in the same direction. Executive privilege is a joke. It is an attempt to get around the law. If you do the crime you need to pay the time.
Neocons?
Your 'Progressive' boy may be just as culpable by your standards, if not more!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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You believe that initially, captive's were asked to cooperate nicely, and only when they refused was torture employed.
This to you, is the way it all went down, and that torture was justified.
Yeah, probably. But I have no facts. Same as you. I'm trying to use logic.
Be nice, ask questions, keep doing that, then get increasingly more 'enhanced' in the techniques.
They are pros. You and I are not.
Neocons are Republicans that put money over country. Profits. They are willing to push aside traditional conservative ideals for 'their' agenda. Which is usually money and/or power.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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We would never torture or do worse would we? (sarcasm)
Don't ever forget Camp "NO" . . .
These kinds of images make me cry. What have we become?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Torture is a crime.
I guess the question is how torture if defined. Do I want my country to water-board people if they deem it necessary for national security?
You betcha. Do you realize what they were able to stop by WBing KSM???
Also, what is the preferred method of dealing with these rat-f*#kers;
1.Waterboarding after capture to extract beta.
2.Violating a countrie's airspace with elite commandos to assasinate one of their citizens.
I say, all of the above. Just get it done.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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"Torture is a crime."
I guess the question is how torture if defined. Do I want my country to water-board people if they deem it necessary for national security?
You betcha. Do you realize what they were able to stop by WBing KSM???
Also, what is the preferred method of dealing with these rat-f*#kers;
1.Waterboarding after capture to extract beta.
2.Violating a countrie's airspace with elite commandos to assasinate one of their citizens.
I say, all of the above. Just get it done.
Bluering,
You've lost it. You have no moral conscience or compass.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Klimmer, it is you who has no moral compass. Have you seen this?
DO NOT WATCH THIS IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH!!! GRAPHIC!!!
http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/american-nick-bergs-beheading-warning-graphic-images/
Is that torture??
KSM is alive ad well. He had water poured over his f*#king face. Nick Berg had his head cut off!!!! Slowly!
We are better than them. But sometimes we have to play mean. Even then, we use care.
The people that would kill your family have no such care. In fact, then intend to kill you and inflict as much pain as possible.
THEY are evil. We fight for the good.
EDIT: Crowley, they had at least one plot prevented. L.A. Skyscrapers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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See my edit above...and yeah, I realize all the Media Matters groups try to dispute it.
Do you realize this was the planner behind 9/11??? He's gonna talk, one way or another...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I say, let's put KSM on trial in a public venue.
Let the chips fall where they may.. :)
Well, why didn't Peace Prize Boy do that with OBL as well? I mean, after all, isn't EVERYBODY entitled to a fair trial? Instead of 2 .45 slugs to the face?
Weak.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Let's begin these trials, and televise the entire affair... :)
Because he's gonna spout the typical Klimmer-crap about American injustice (as he sits though American justice) and oppression (Sharia??) and otherwise show-boat Islamic jihad.
Throw him away, he's garbage. Lock him up for life if he's deemed unworthy of a firing squad. And that firing squad should be Moms and Dads of those who died.
Televise that!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Matt, let me explain to you that this man devised a plan (that was approved at the top) to take planes bearing innocent civilians and slam them into heavily populated buildings TO KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.
We, as a kind nation, usually show restraint and reason. But this attack upon innocent people was too much. HE TARGETED INNOCENT PEOPLE.
And I'm supposed to watch him on trial? One bullet. That is the judge, jury, and verdict...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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this man devised a plan (that was approved at the top)
It's all heresay from news, but it appears valid,
Asking about 'proof' about classified stuff seems to be your new fence-sitting position.
It all makes sense though. Especially with him squealing out beta about hte ops. Seems to confirm it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bluering,
You are failing from the get go.
9-11 wasn't accomplished by terrorists alone. At the most they were used as patsies. They were made-up bogeymen, fall guys. The real criminals responsible for masterminding 9-11, getting the military to stand-down, play all the War Games on 9-11, and then make-up a sham 9-11 Commission that white-washed 9-11, and that continue to prevent any follow-up official investigation are still at large. 9-11 has to be investigated officially. It never was. So how can you say that the ones they trotted out within a short amount of time after 9-11 are the ones who really did and were able to pull off 9-11? You can't.
You will be met with the same justice and/or lack of mercy as you do to others on Judgement Day.
Torture, killing, assassinations, and murder is wrong. On both sides, it doesn't matter who is doing it. Of course they are wrong to do those immoral and brutal acts just as we are to ever do them, or to do them back.
We are not living under "An Eye for an Eye," OT law. Besides, most people don't understand the truth of that. You have to know Hebrew and look into the Jewish commentaries regarding what it meant. It meant monetary payment equal to the crime for a just restitution. The monetary value of an eye for a eye lost. KJV of the bible didn't translate that perfectly.
We are a Country with a Constitution. We are a Country of Laws. Everyone deserves their day in court. Even those set against us and our enemies. Justice should be met out fairly and equitably. No sham, corrupt military tribunals. Justice must be met out equitably and in full sunshine.
I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Trials? We don't need no steeeenking TRIALS!
Hey, idiot, do you want to try everybody in a war? You're a f*#king idiot. Some people need to be shot on sight! It's a f*#king war, man!!!!
You sit there in you little deluded liberal world, ya know why??? Because ass-kickers are killing people before they get to you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klimmer wrote: I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
Vengeance is a human trait...not a godly one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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constant aggressive belligerence
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bob wrote:
Klimmer wrote: I do not believe in Capital Punishment, and The Good Book does not either. GOD is the final judge. We aren't. Vengeance is GOD's not ours.
Vengeance is a human trait...not a godly one.
Actually just the other way around. It shouldn't be a human trait because we don't have omnipotent knowledge, but GOD does. We do not deserve this kind of power. It isn't ours. We are human and often make mistakes in our judgement.
That is why GOD reserves vengeance for himself only. He is omnipotent and his judgement is true.
Romans 12:19 (KJV, NT)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Deuteronomy 32:35 (KJV, OT)
To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
And many more relevant verses . . .
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/32-35.htm
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You like Deuteronomy, Klimmer?
Seeing as how you quote him.
Ever "really" read what Deuteronomy had to say in the Bible?
About how raping, burning, torturing, and murdering human beings is "God's word"?
THOSE PARTS
Or do you do what all the other bible thumpers do, CHERRY PICK and deny the "bad"
shit in the bible?
Knock off your god crap, Klimmer. It does NOT belong on this thread.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Norton,
Seeing as though we are talking about assassination, killing, is it lawful or not? etc. etc. It is very relevant to the discussion since much of the foundation of Western Law stems from The Good Book and The Law of GOD, the 10 Commandments.
I would say it is very relevant.
And your understanding of The Torah law is very naive and shallow. You would have to get into all the Jewish Hebrew commentaries that have been written over the millenniums to know the truth of the matter.
One thing is for sure, the OT Law was to show that all mankind is guilty of death and punishment because of their sin. No one is good. And we can not abide by the law without GOD ruling in our hearts. It's impossible. No one can make it on their own and abide by the law without GOD. That was the purpose.
It was a foreshadow and a pointing to the fulfillment of the law in Jesus Christ. We believe in Jesus Christ and GOD's salvation plan, and have Christ in our hearts, then we now can do it, we have a perfect role model for how to live, and we are forgiven. GOD is now with us and abides in us.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klimmer wrote: That is why GOD reserves vengeance for himself only. He is omnipotent and his judgement is true.
You are full of sh#t.
God is perfect, vengeance isn't.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Klimmer, you have NO right to tell ME about Torah law.
You don't know me personally, or what my religious reading background is.
So shut up about stuff you know nothing about, ME.
Again, keep your own religious views to yourself, or post them on the god threads.
Your god talk does NOT belong on a killing bin laden thread.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bob,
Vengeance = retribution
Perhaps you are bent by the word "vengeance." It is old english KJV.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Coz,
So let me get this straight. Everyone who disagrees with you or doesn't see eye to eye with you is a troll or nutjob?
Is that it?
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monolith
climber
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^^So asketh the religious nutjob^^
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klimmer wrote: Bob,
Vengeance = retribution
Perhaps you are bent by the word "vengeance." It is old english KJV.
And you are bent on believing that if a God did exist he is capable of retribution. God is perfect and above the short comings of humans.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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or he is a hell of a good troll....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oh ye of little faith . . .
Now moving on . . .
CIA--Bush--Bin Laden connection Timeline
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x314592
http://www.debug-digital.de/lebensaspekte/groundzero/cia_binladen.html
CIA- Bin Laden Connection
1976
=
Due to a trust agreement, drawn shortly after George H. Bush was appointed director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Saudi Sheik Salem M. bin Laden appointed Bath as his business representative in Houston.
"if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator" George H. Bush (actually GWB)
1981
=
George W. Bush oil company partly funded by the principal US representative of Salem Bin Laden, Osama Bin Laden's brother. John Cooley reports in Unholy Wars: "By 1981, when CIA chief Casey and his Saudi associates, Kamal Adhan and Prince Turki, were casting around for new sources of secret financing for the Afghan campaign, the bin Laden enterprises were all on a short list of possibly helpful families"
1986
=
Afghanistan: Bin Laden brought in engineers from his father's company and heavy construction equipment to build roads and warehouses for the Mujaheddin. Then he helped building a CIA-financed tunnel complex, named Tora Bora, to serve as a major arms storage depot, training facility and medical center for the Mujaheddin, deep under the mountains close to the Pakistan border."
('Pittsburgh Post-Gazette,' 23 September 2001 Sunday, Two Star Edition, pg. A-12)
1992
=
Bin Laden begins to set up legitimate businesses in the Sudan, and the Sudanese government supposedly liked this wealthy man who was investing in their country. US intelligence agencies then allege that this was the first terrorist attack involving bin Laden. The CIA get the order to kill Bin Laden and is still trying this.
1994
=
According to US intelligence analysts, by January 1994, Osama bin Laden was financing at least three terrorist training camps in North Sudan.
1994-1995
=
At the instance of the US and on the orders of Mrs.Benazir Bhutto, then Prime Minister, and Maj.Gen.(retd) Nasirullah Babar, her Interior Minister, he and Lt.Gen.Mohammad Aziz, then Deputy Director-General of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), created the Taliban. The US was interested in the Taliban as a possible operational asset against Iran and as the facilitator of oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan to Pakistan through Afghanistan planned by UNOCAL, an American company, with high political contacts in Washington DC. Dr.Henry Kissinger was reportedly the political consultant of the UNOCAL.
February 1995
=
US authorities named bin Laden and his Saudi brother-in-law, Mohammed Jamal Khalifa, among 172 unindicted co-conspirators with the 11 Muslims charged for the World Trade Center bombing and the associated plot to blow up other New York landmarks." ('Jane's Intelligence Review,' 1 October 1995)
June 1995
=
Unsuccessful assassination attempt on the life of the President of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak. U.S. intelligence sources have cause to believe bin Laden was linked to this action.
November 1995
=
Five Americans are killed in the truck bombing of a U.S.-operated Saudi National Guard training center in Riyadh. Bin Laden denies involvement but praises the attack.
May 1996
=
The Sudan expels bin Laden because of international pressure by the United States and Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden then moves back to Afghanistan.
June 25th, 1996
=
Attack on American barracks at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden is accused by the U.S. of masterminding that bombing, which killed 19 U.S. airmen and wounded about 500 others
Mid 1996
=
The FBI closed their files (marked Secret and coded 199) to investigate two of Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington and a Muslim organisation, the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY), with which they were linked.
June 1996
=
A large truck bomb devastates the US military residence in Dhahran, killing 19 servicemen. The US military initially linked bin Laden and a Saudi Shiite group to the attack.
1998
=
Former President George H.W. Bush travels to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 The Best Enemies Money Can Buy http://www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html
Early 1998
=
The CIA starts monitoring Bin Laden with the help of 15 Afghan agents. The team, whose code name is still classified, reported daily, pinpointing bin Laden in a specific location. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011223/pl/afghan_cia_1.html
August 7th, 1998
=
Two explosions take place at US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bomb is Nairobi, Kenya kills 213 people, and injure more than 4,500 . The bomb in Dar es Salaam kills 11 and injures 85. The attack is connected to Bin Laden.
October 12th, 1999
=
A planned attack on Bin Laden, ordered by President Clinton, was aborted on that day, when Sharif was overthrown in a military coup by General Pervez Musharraf, who halted the proposed covert operation. The Clinton administration had to settle for a UN Security Council resolution that demanded the Taliban turn over bin Laden to "appropriate authorities," but did not require he be handed over to the United States.
March 2000
==
CIA director George J. Tenet told the Senate that Osama bin Laden's group (Al Q'aeda) was "embracing the opportunities offered by recent leaps in information technology
August 2000
=
The FBI "lost" two suspects on their watch list: Khalid Al-Midhar and Nawaq Alhazm. The CIA was later also investigating on these two persons, officially due to connections of the USS Cole Bombing in 2000. They never revealed until today, why they stopped this investigation. On September 11th, these two names appeared again on the list of the 19 hijackers.
October 2000
=
The warship USS Cole is crippled by a suicide bombing in Yemen that killed 17 sailors. Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network later had been linked to the attack, who praised it. The CIA locates Chalid Al-Midhar and Nawaq Alhamzi again and watch them because of the USS Cole attack, but finished the investigation again without any officical explanation.
During 2000
=
Former President George H.W. Bush travels again to Saudi Arabia on behalf of the privately owned Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the U.S. While there he meets privately with the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden family. [Source: Wall Street Journal, Sept. 27, 2001. See also FTW, Vol. IV, No 7 The Best Enemies Money Can Buy http://www.copvcia.com/members/carlyle.html
Feb 13, 2001
=
UPI Terrorism Correspondent Richard Sale - while covering a trial of bin Laden's Al Qaeda followers - reports that the National Security Agency has broken bin Laden's encrypted communications. Even if this indicates that bin Laden changed systems in February it does not mesh with the fact that the government insists that the attacks had been planned for years
Juli 4th, 2001
=
As long as the possibility of a Afghanistan pipeline deal remained, the White House stalled any further investigation into the activities of Osama bin Laden, authors Brisard and Dasquie write. They report that John O'Neill, deputy director of the FBI, resigned later in protest over this obstruction. O'Neill told them in an interview, "the main obstacles to investigate Islamic terrorism were US oil corporate interests and the role played by Saudi Arabia in it."
July 4-14, 2001:
=
Osama bin Laden receives treatments for kidney disease at the American hospital in Dubai and meets with CIA official Larry Stevens who returns to CIA headquarters on July 15th. It is reported, that also Al-Zawahiri and members of Bin Ladens family have visited him.
Late July 2001
=
John O'Neill, the Irish-American FBI agent who for years led US investigations into Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network resigned in frustration because the US ambassador to Yemen, Ms Barbara Bodine, forbade O'Neill and his team of so- called Rambos (as the Yemeni authorities called them) from entering Yemen. John O'Neill starts a security job in the World Trade Center and died on September 11th.
September 11th, 2001
==
The CIA blames the attack on america on Bin Laden
In your best Star Wars Darth Vader imitating voice . . .
"The dark side of the Force is strong between the CIA, Osama bin Laden, and the Bush Family"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Actually just the other way around. It shouldn't be a human trait because we don't have omnipotent knowledge, but GOD does. We do not deserve this kind of power. It isn't ours. We are human and often make mistakes in our judgement.
That is why GOD reserves vengeance for himself only. He is omnipotent and his judgement is true.
Yer a real fool. And God says do too!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oh the secrets the Bush Family could tell . . .
In deed, the Dark Side of the Force is Strong within the Bush Family . . .
and their relationship with the Saud and Bin Laden Families runs deep . . .
How long will it take for America to wake up and stop this madness?
And President Obama only wants to look forward and not backward. And the self-selected Presidential Executive powers continue unabated.
Does it sound more than a little bit like ancient Rome around here to anyone else but me?
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WBraun
climber
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LOL too funny .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Good article written by Michael Ruppert back in 2001. Michael ruppert was so far ahead of everyone on getting the word out about the truth of 9-11-01. Reading his book, Crossing the Rubicon, was a mind bender.
Wish it didn't take me so long to come around, but I finally did (2003ish). I finally saw too much of the light. Then I knew. It hurt. It hurt bad. It was painful. Depressing even.
But love of family, friends, and GOD got me through. Life, love of life, adventure, family, the truth, and love of GOD goes on. But now I know the truth. I know. My heart is happy even though "the wicked one" controls the wicked World around us. I can step out spiritually, and be happy, and be separate as Jesus told us to be.
Bin Laden Met With CIA In
July...And Walked Away -
Connect The Dots
By Michael C. Ruppert
© Copyright 2001 All Rights Reserved
http://www.copvcia.com
11-2-1
http://www.rense.com/general16/bin.htm
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WBraun
climber
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Unfortunately, you could post definitive proof that 9/11 was a false flag op and nobody would bother to read it.
I'd read it and so would several million others.
You definitively would too .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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A very spiritually poignant article and thought regarding the rejoicing at the fall of our enemies follows.
It bothered me that people were shouting in the streets for joy at the death of another human being, even if he was evil, and a terrorist when he was alive in the last part of his years. Now I know why. This article nails it on the head.
But all the indications show we, the USA, made him into what he became. He didn't like our presence in Saudi Arabia, the country of Mecca, Islam's most Holy site (not agreeing with the tenants of Islam, but I do give them mutual respect as a faith.) I won't ever agree with the philosophy of terrorism. It is evil and wrong no matter how you look at it. The taking of life is wrong. However, he was after all our CIA asset. . .
'Rejoice Not…'
Saturday, 07 May 2011 08:20
http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/10547-rejoice-not.html
WB,
Thanks. I'll look into his journal at DU.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz wrote
Karl,
I can only say to you and the treehugger, disgruntled vet DMT, two words.
Resource domination. That's the reason everyone since the Mongels have been involved in Afganistan. That's just basic knowledge, I'd hope...
I have to hope you're kidding on this. I mean, if you're willing to advocate invading a country and violently dominating it to control resources, you're advocating killing thousands of innocent people in the process. How is that so different from Bin Laden advocating killing thousands of innocent people to push them out of dominating Muslim Countries? It this just plain cold selfishness without any morality? We only hate evil when it's directed against us?
healyje wrote
And most of the original colonists were fundamentalist religious fanatics and pariahs who were escaping persecution, not justice. Hell, they had more in common with OBL holed-up in a cave than with you or me.
Like the issue of slavery, it's hard to judge the past by today's standards, and it's also possible that todays extremist Muslims are simply behind the times and that Radical elements of Islam will be marginalized in time or cease violence. (It's questionable whether fundamentalist Christians egging on the end of the world have done that, or just egged on the government to do their dirty work)
But that said, it's hard to dispute. In the late 1600's Heresy carried the death penalty in Massachusetts. They hung Quakers, merely for being Quakers. It will similarly illegal to be a Catholic, or Anglican, and then there's the Salem Witch Trials.
Then our founding fathers became terrorists in the eyes of England, their former home country.
History is written by the winners. Very few people are really evil, they are just possessed passionately by their misguided ideas. That goes for Bin Laden as well as the many people on this forum who advocated Nuking whole Mid-east countries after 9-11. The evil destructive effects in innocent people aren't so different except by scale.
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Excellent Karl. Excellent IMO,
Whatever it is people believe in, they all have the potential to do terrible things.
It seems the first step comes when a person realizes, in all probability and to some degree, they themselves are doing terrible things. Each day then becomes a journey to root out what that evil may be. Expect no "success."
This is the core of most belief systems. All too often
sight of this has been lost.
Righteousness is the primary evil - I think.
Righteousness is everywhere.
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shut up and pull
climber
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FROM POWERLINE:
All of this praise is due to the fact that Obama approved, rather than nixing, the killing of bin Laden. A good decision, to be sure. But is there a single person, anywhere, who doubts that George W. Bush would have made the same call? Or John McCain, if he had won in 2008? Of course not. The Democrats' jubilation results from the fact that their guy didn't wilt under pressure, but rather lived up to the standard that George W. Bush and John McCain easily met. For this, he is called "courageous" and "gutsy."
One wonders: if killing bin Laden was a courageous, gutsy decision by Barack Obama, where were the liberals when President Bush approved the killing of Zarqawi? Do you remember any of them praising that decision as courageous and "game changing?" No, neither do I. Or how about the apprehension of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? How many congratulations did that skillfully-executed operation draw from the Left? And how about Bush's decision to topple, and then capture, Saddam Hussein, one of America's bitterest enemies, whose forces tried to shoot down American airplanes and who attempted to assassinate a former American President? Was that a courageous and gutsy decision? We all know the answer to that question.
What we are currently witnessing is the strange spectacle of liberals trying to grab, for their guy, a mantle neither he nor they ever sought: cold-blooded assassin of anti-American terrorists. This has nothing to do with their true values and priorities, and everything to do with the fact that Obama's economic policies have put him in a deep hole as he seeks re-election next year.
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shut up and pull
climber
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FROM POWERLINE
The interrogations of KSM (which included waterboarding) and the interrogation of Hassan Ghul (held in "black site" prisons) were key to identifying the courier; the president then authorized military action in a foreign country without going to the United Nations or informing the host government; the military action was unilateral, and we did not consult with our allies; Congress was not informed of the military action; and it increasingly appears that no serious effort was made to treat Osama bin Laden as a criminal (reading him his rights, etc.). The monitoring of Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti's phone call was a result of an extensive global wiretapping system. Furthermore, as Charles Krauthammer notes, the helicopters used in the raid came from Bagram and Jalalabad; if we had withdrawn from Afghanistan on the antiwar Left's timetable, we would have had no bases from which to launch this operation.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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SUAP, That's BS. This operation was months in the making and could have gone south a number of different ways (even with Obama making the right decisions)
Bush already proved he wouldn't make the right call by ignoring Bin Laden and sending the Pakistanis to get him in Tora Bora. We can assume he would have done the same this time and perhaps Bin Laden could have "accidentally" slipped away
It's also BS that KSM's waterboarding brought out the courier information. Actually they waterboarded him, asked him about the courier, and he lied and said the courier wasn't active anymore and wasn't important. Another detainee said the same thing and so they assumed those guys were lying and checked him out. You don't need to torture people to get them to tell lies.
Peace
Karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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Karl:
One question -- why hasnt Obama shut down Gitmo -- one of his biggest campaign promises?
Also -- the Dems refused to vote on a bill that outlawed specifically waterboarding -- why?
Peace to you.
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shut up and pull
climber
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The Dems -- when they controlled the House, the Senate, and the Prez -- refused to outlaw specifically that most-hated form of interrogation -- waterboarding -- why?
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shut up and pull
climber
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from instapundit.
Remember -- you may think its your money -- but it is not. It is theirs.
"DEMOCRATS SEE HIGH GAS PRICES as a good occasion for raising taxes on oil companies. The NYT passes along the Democrats’ puzzling PR on the subject. Senator Menendez says: “Big Oil certainly doesn’t need the collective money of taxpayers in this country. This is as good a time as any in terms of pain at the pump and in revenues needed for deficit reduction.” The collective money? Interesting use of the word “collective.” It’s a tell, isn’t it? If anyone has money, they have the people’s collective money. Somehow taking that is supposed to to help people who are feeling “pain at the pump.” It’s hard to see how. But maybe the key phrase is “This is as good a time as any.” It’s always a good time for taxing!"
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shut up and pull
climber
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GEE -- WHO WOULDA THUNK IT?
AMTRAK TURNS 40…CALLED A ‘MASSIVE FAILURE’ BY ITS FOUNDER:
When the Founding Father of Amtrak calls it a ‘massive failure’ and states that the politicians involved are getting more benefits from it than the passengers and taxpayers, you would hope that someone in the Federal government would respond.
Washington did respond. Their answer to Amtrak’s problems? Spend more money.
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shut up and pull
climber
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At Reason, Nick Gillespie quips, “Sen. Charles Schumer Proposes to Expand Amtrak’s Already Amazingly Effective ‘No-Ride List’ to Even More People.”
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shut up and pull
climber
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CHANGE: Jerry Brown Wants To Cut Prison Population by a Fifth.
That should help California's already crappy economy get even better!
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shut up and pull
climber
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AGAIN.
QUESTION.
WHEN THE DEMS CONTROLLED THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, AND THE PREZ -- DID THEY EVER PASS A BILL TO BAN WATERBOARDING SPECIFICALLY?
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shut up and pull
climber
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AC -- typical lib -- always ready to silence dissent.
But I thought, according to libs, dissent was the highest form of patriotism!?
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shut up and pull
climber
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To put more simply:
Has Obama ever been presented with a bill to sign that specifically outlaws waterboarding?
Uhhhh, I don't think so!
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shut up and pull
climber
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AC -- answer the simple question -- when the Dems controlled the House, Sentate and the Prez (under Obama) -- did they ever present Barry with a bill that specifically bans waterboarding?
Yes.
Or.
No.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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WHEN THE DEMS CONTROLLED THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, AND THE PREZ -- DID THEY EVER PASS A BILL TO BAN WATERBOARDING SPECIFICALLY?
If you argued that waterboarding was torture then why would you vote to outlaw it specifically when torture is already illegal? That would send a conflicting message.
It's sort of like writing a law that says that running over a person and killing them with your car is illegal. Doing so would make it look like you were too dumb to know that murder is already illegal with or without a car.
To answer the question; no, there was no need for a bill to outlaw that which is already illegal.
I don't know if that is the reason for them not writing that specific bill but it is the reason that I would never write such a bill.
Dave
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shut up and pull
climber
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PROGRESSIVE POLICIES, WRIT LARGE:
“DEAR GOV. BROWN: WHAT PART OF ECONOMICS 101 DID YOU FAIL?” – “For the seventh year running, California has been ranked the WORST state in which to do business according to a survey by Chief Executive Magazine.”
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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STFAP: This is the Bin Laden thread. There is a politics thread if you want/need to rail on Obama on unrelated issues.
It's obvious you hate him, but pace yourself, you're looking at 5 more years of the dude.
You wrote
One question -- why hasnt Obama shut down Gitmo -- one of his biggest campaign promises?
Turns out everyone (and their congressman) was so afraid of having these ultra-dangerous detainees stateside. Guess the Bin Laden raid proved what crack killers these Top Al Queda guys are
Peace
Karl
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shut up and pull
climber
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Rector -- oh please.
There was a HUGE disagreement over whether waterboarding constituted torture.
If you wanted to ban out -- ban it.
The Dems had 2 years to ban it -- and they refused to do it.
The big question -- WHY?
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shut up and pull
climber
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AC.
I shudder at the depth of your responses.
Profanity-laced non sequiters.
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shut up and pull
climber
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The Dems had 2 years controlling the House, the Senate, and Prez, and they didnt do the following:
1. Repeal Bush tax cuts.
2. Close Gitmo.
3. Ban waterboarding.
4. Repeal the Patriot Act.
5. Close secret prisons overseas.
6. Give a nice comfy civilian trial in NYC to 911 mastermind KSM.
Big question -- why not?
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shut up and pull
climber
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AC -- wow -- another fine profanity-filled response. Go dude go!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Big question -- why not?
The Dems are wimps and pussies like the GOP are killers and abusers....Fair enough?
(and I mean wimps politically at home, they are obvious capable of killing lots of people in Afghanistan and getting us into new conflicts (Libya) and getting Bin Laden in bold raids. The difference, the influence of Elite power and money makes DEMs rule like GOP even when the GOP is out of power)
Maybe they like to keep the power they inherited from Bush, and there was a negative public reaction (fanned by fox news etc) to trying KSM in New York (or maybe they didn't want a pubic trial exposing any dirt)
Now take the OT issues on another thread.
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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You really are stuck on Stupid, SUAP....
Too bad, that.
STFAP also doesn't listen.
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monolith
climber
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Turns out everyone (and their congressman) was so afraid of having these ultra-dangerous detainees stateside. Guess the Bin Laden raid proved what crack killers these Top Al Queda guys are
Horses for courses, Karl. You would not have seen Bin Laden hijacking a plane any more than you would have seen Obama in the compound raiding party.
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apogee
climber
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Hey, fattrad- you've been called out on the 'Death/Republicans' thread to explain this statement of yours:
"Republicans have been forced into more extreme positions due the extrme liberalism begun under FDR.'
You wouldn't be hiding from it over here, would you?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Why even debate him guys...
He may as well be a tape recorder for the macabre.
There is no brain, reason, or sense of reality there....
thats why Alice has had such a good time with him this morning...
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apogee
climber
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"A lot of you now defend Obamas actions which are the SAME as Bush....Where are those cries for "bringing evil" to justice now??? "
How about an example, Ron?
And, the difference b/w Shrub & Obama in how they handled OBL...Obama got him.
That's what will go down in the history books.
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apogee
climber
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fattrad, it's only been a week.
True enough, some of the Shrub/neocon policies probably laid the groundwork for this, but which of them played a direct or significant role is still unclear. There is no clear evidence that 'enhanced interrogation' techniques produced direct intelligence that lead to Abbottabad.
In any case, this will play out historically just like the economic boon that occurred during the 90's: Clinton = economic growth, Obama = Dead OBL
Edit: Can't forget the opportunity to provide a dig at the GOP with the corollary statement:
Shrub = Economic disaster, gave up on OBL
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apogee
climber
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I am too, fattrad...it's only been a week.
Remember how the GOP backed off on their hyperbole for a few days after Tucson? It was a nice lull, but it didn't last long. The anti-Gitmo voice will be back, soon enough.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Why, Jeff?
Because one one really gives the slightest about Gitmo.
I don't give a damn where they hold those prisoners. Could not care less.
No one I know talks about it or cares about it.
Really only some dipwad on a climbing website who has nothing better to do "pretends"
to care where some people are incarcerated.
If the Republicans would not be so FEARFUL of having them moved, then ok maybe
someday Gitmo is closed.
By guess is maybe 5% of US citizens even know it is the Caribbean.
And they don't know or care who is or is not "held" there.
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apogee
climber
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"Could it be the Bush/Cheney was right??? "
About what?
There isn't any clear evidence (yet) that Gitmo or WB'ing produced the direct intelligence that resulted in OBL's double tap.
If you try real hard to scrape away your ideologic fog for a moment, you'll remember that Shrubco came on hard for a few years after 9/11, then got distracted by Iraq, and the message in the last several years of his reign was 'OBL doesn't matter- forget that guy'. (Which everyone knew was a copout rationalization for his failure.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I don't care, and granted it may be a waste in that those prisoners could be held in
an existing facility elsewhere, Gitmo's cost in a three trillion dollar budget is less than peanuts.
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dirtbag
climber
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Situation Room, or "Girls Gone Wild" photo shoot?
Hillary Clinton's expression, right hand clasped over her mouth in astonishment, is largely responsible for making the above photo iconic--and, to at least one newspaper, sexually suggestive.
Indeed, "The Hasidic newspaper will not intentionally include any images of women in the paper because it could be considered sexually suggestive," Rabbi Jason Miller explains in The Jewish Week.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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There isn't any clear evidence (yet) that Gitmo or WB'ing produced the direct intelligence that resulted in OBL's double tap.
Present CIA director Panetta sure said there was.
Can't get much clearer than that.
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apogee
climber
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"Present CIA director Panetta sure said there was."
Source it, TGT.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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WB,
Thanks for giving out that resource for 9-11 truth. Robert Schopmeyer does awesome research. I've been reading through his DU Journal. He has his book available. I'm gonna buy it on Kindle . . . thanks again for posting the link.
He nails the CIA to the door. Wow, I'm blown-away. We are figuring this massive 9-11 false-flag pys-ops out. Incredible.
Robert Schopmeyer’s DU Journal:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/rschop
http://www.eventson9/11.com
Compiled exclusively from official US government documents or sources :
Prior Knowledge of 9/11
Posted by rschop in September 11
Mon Dec 20th 2010, 03:29 AM
Review on Amazon.com
5.0 out of 5 stars serious 9/11 research -- not for the faint of heart, September 25, 2010
By
Mark H. Gaffney (Chiloquin, OR USA) - See all my reviews: http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2EADYDGG9UT1I
This review is for: Prior Knowledge of 9/11 (Kindle Edition): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0041VYL9K/ref=cm_pdp_rev_itm_img_1
The author Robert Schopmeyer initially accepted the official 9/11 narrative. However, as he writes in his introduction, after attending open sessions of the 9/11 Commission Hearings in 2004 he became "increasingly perplexed regarding the intelligence agencies' excuses for not anticipating and preventing the events of 9/11." Thereafter, the author launched his own review of the pertinent documents. These include the 2002 Joint Inquiry Report prepared by the Joint House/Senate Intelligence Committee, the subsequent 9/11 Commission Report released in 2004, the Report by the FBI's Inspector General, various media sources, and the 2007 Report by the CIA's Inspector General.
The result is an excellent analysis based on a compilation of all of these sources.
The author is to be commended for digging deeper than most other researchers, including, for example, Lawrence Wright (The Looming Tower), whom he leaves in the dust. Schopmeyer shows how, time and again, the CIA withheld key evidence from the FBI, evidence which would have enabled the FBI to roll up the terrorists and prevent the 9/11 attacks. Where Wright insults our intelligence by leaving such loose threads hanging, Schopmeyer offers a rational explanation for the CIA disconnects.
The author concludes that these were not just mis-steps, but a deliberate and criminal pattern of obstruction of those honest investigators who were trying to do their job and protect the nation.
Schopmeyer's conclusion that the CIA (and FBI headquarters) were complicit in the 9/11 attacks is deeply disturbing. True enough. But he presents a tightly argued and persuasive case. Which he further bolsters with additional documentary evidence in the latest edition. The author encouraged me to start with chapter 19, then read Appendix B. This gives the big picture.
PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF 9/11 adds yet another nail in the coffin of the official conspiracy theory. I give Schopmeyer's book my highest recommendation.
Those who would prefer the hardbound edition, instead of kindle, can acquire the book at www.eventson9/11.com
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apogee
climber
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fattrad, you are diverting the discussion due to a weakness in your argument.
The role of Gitmo & enhanced interrogation has been in question since they started, and recent events haven't justified them any more than they were on May 1. You can bet yer Republican arses that if offing OBL was due in large part to Gitmo or WB'ing (or similar), the rightwing media would obliterate all of the media oxygen with 'we told you so' narratives.
I'm not arguing necessarily that those things aren't useful or sometimes justified, just that recent events do almost nothing to support the policies.
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Gene
climber
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Fattrad,
The SCOTUS ruled in 2006 that GTMO detainees were entitled to the protections outlined in the Geneva Conventions...
Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (June 2006) pretty much spells it out.
http://www.hamdanvrumsfeld.com/05-184.pdf
g
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dirtbag
climber
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9/11: THE TRUTH is out there Sheeple!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Seriously, get caught fighting on a battlefield without being part of a nations military, no uniform, no patches, you have zero rights, none, nada. Hold them until they die.
This is design to prevent people from going into and out of battles on a whim, hiding with their families by night and battling by day. A sound legal concept and common sense is the "Enemy Combatant".
Obama and Holder dropped teh whole Enemy combatant thing which I quoted earlier in the thread.
I think it makes a difference BTW if you are in your home country. If the United States were invaded and your neighbor tells the invaders you are a fighter and they come drag you out of your home, are you really an enemy combatant? Or even if you pick up your gun and fight em in the back yard?
Guess those right wing types like in Wacko and Ruby Ridge are also enemy combatants who get no trial (if they lived) right?
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Obama: NO Apology to Pakistan for killing Bin Laden There:
White House spokesman Jay Carney said President Obama stands by his decision to order a covert assault-team raid to cross into a Pakistani city and kill Osama bin Laden without telling Pakistani officials.
"We obviously take statements and concerns of the Pakistani government very seriously," Carney told reporters at a briefing. "We also do not apologize for the actions that we took. [The President] said back in the [2008] campaign...if this is the only way we can do it, to do it unilaterally, he would take that chance and we did it. It is beyond a doubt in his mind, that he had the right and the imperative to do it."
Carney was responding to the most recent comments by Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani and opposition politicians in the country about the May 2 raid and killing of bin Laden. Pakistani officials have welcomed the death of bin Laden but also have complained that the raid was a violation of its sovereignty.
The fact that bin Laden was found in a town full of Pakistani military retirees and near a military school just 30 miles north of Islamabad has lead to U.S. suspicions that at least some elements of the Pakistani government were complicit in helping him obtain refuge from the United States. tpm
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apogee
climber
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"Pakistani officials have welcomed the death of bin Laden but also have complained that the raid was a violation of its sovereignty."
Time to call the 'Waaaah-mbulance'.
Quit talking out of both sides of your mouth and get your political/security act together so yer shite stops splattering on everybody else, and we'll talk about 'sovereignty'.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Time for regime change in Pakistan.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Seriously, get caught fighting on a battlefield without being part of a nations military, no uniform, no patches, you have zero rights, none, nada. Hold them until they die.
This is design to prevent people from going into and out of battles on a whim, hiding with their families by night and battling by day. A sound legal concept and common sense is the "Enemy Combatant".
So much for the Minutemen.
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Gene
climber
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Fattrad,
Turn all Enemy Combatants over to the CIA and then they have no rights again.
What about Executive Order 13491—Ensuring Lawful Interrogations?
All executive directives, orders, and regulations inconsistent with this order, including but not limited to those issued to or by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) from September 11, 2001, to January 20, 2009, concerning detention or the interrogation of detained individuals, are revoked to the extent of their inconsistency with this order.
Sec. 3. Standards and Practices for Interrogation of Individuals in the Custody or Control of the United States in Armed Conflicts.
(a) Common Article 3 Standards as a Minimum Baseline. Consistent with the requirements of the Federal torture statute, 18 U.S.C. 2340–2340A, section 1003 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, 42 U.S.C. 2000dd, the Convention Against Torture, Common Article 3, and other laws regulating the treatment and interrogation of individuals detained in any armed conflict, such persons shall in all circumstances be treated humanely and shall not be subjected to violence to life and person (including murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture), nor to outrages upon personal dignity (including humiliating and degrading treatment), whenever such individuals are in the custody or under the effective control of an officer, employee, or other agent of the United States Government or detained within a facility owned, operated, or controlled by a department or agency of the United States. http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-1885.pdf
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shut up and pull
climber
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Geert Wilders' problem with Islam
National Post
Jonathan Kay May 8, 2011 – 7:48 PM ET | Last Updated: May 9, 2011 10:54 AM ET
As an editor at the National Post, I often rely on three letters to protect my columnists from human-rights tribunals: I-S-M — these being the difference between spelling Islam and Islamism.
The former is a religion — like Christianity or Judaism. The latter is an ideology, which seeks to impose an intolerant fundamentalist version of Islam on all Muslims, and spread the faith throughout the world. Declaring Islamism a menace isn’t controversial. Declaring Islam a menace is considered hate speech.
Geert Wilders’ refusal to deploy those three letters is the reason that the 47-year-old Dutch politician travels with bodyguards, and cannot sleep in the same house two nights in a row. For Mr. Wilders, the problem plaguing Western societies is Islam, full stop. Terrorism, tyranny, the subjugation of women — these are not perversions of Islam, as he sees it, but rather its very essence.
“The word ‘Islamism’ suggests that there is a moderate Islam and a non-moderate Islam,” he told me during an interview in Toronto on Sunday. “And I believe that this is a distinction that doesn’t exist. It’s like the Prime Minister of Turkey [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, said ‘There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam, and that’s it.’ This is the Islam of the Koran.”
“Now, you can certainly make a distinction among the people,” he adds. “There are moderate Muslims — who are the majority in our Western societies — and non-moderate Muslims.”
“But Islam itself has only one form. The totalitarian ideology contained in the Koran has no room for moderation. If you really look at what the Koran says, in fact, you could argue that ‘moderate’ Muslims are not Muslims at all. It tells us that if you do not act on even one verse, then you are an apostate.”
Unlike most critics of Islam, who tend to shy away from the explosive subject of Mohammed himself, Mr. Wilders forthrightly describes the Muslim Prophet as a dictator, a pedophile and a warmonger. “If you study the life of Mohammed,” Mr.Wilders told me, “you can see that he was a worse terrorist than Osama bin Laden ever was.”
It is an understatement to call Mr. Wilders a divisive figure in the Netherlands. On the one hand, he is the leader of the PVV, the country’s third most popular political party — which currently is propping up the ruling minority government. And Mr. Wilders has been declared “politician of the year” by a popular Dutch radio station, and come in second in a variety of other mainstream polls.
On the other hand, the Muslim Council of Britain has called him “an open and relentless preacher of hate.” For a time, Mr. Wilders, even was banned from entering the U.K. A popular Dutch rapper wrote a song about killing Mr. Wilders (“This is no joke. Last night I dreamed I chopped your head off.”)
Before meeting Mr. Wilders on Sunday, I knew him mostly from his most inflammatory slogans — such as his comparison of the Koran to Mein Kampf — which his detractors fling around as proof of his narrow-minded bigotry.
Yet the real Geert Wilders speaks softly and thoughtfully. It turns out that he’s travelled to dozens of Muslim nations. He knows more about the Islamic faith and what it means to ordinary people than do most of Islam’s most ardent Western defenders.
Nor do I believe that Mr. Wilders is a bigot — a least, not in the sense that the word usually is understood.
“I don’t hate Muslims. I hate their book and their ideology,” is what he told Britain’s Guardian newspaper in 2008. Mr. Wilders sees Islam as akin to communism or fascism, a cage that traps its suffering adherents in a hateful, phobic frame of mind.
Mr. Wilders describes Muslim as victims of bad ideas, in other words. In this way, his attitude is entirely different from classic anti-Semites and racists, who treat Jews and blacks as debased on the level of biology.
Of course, in the modern, politically correct Western tradition, hatred expressed toward a religion typically is held on the same level of human-rights opprobrium as hatred expressed toward a race or an ethnicity. But Islam is not really a religion at all, as Mr. Wilders sees it, but rather a retrograde political ideology with religious trappings.
He notes that while other religions draw a distinction between God and Caesar, between the secular and the spiritual, Islam demands submission in every aspect of human existence, both through the wording of the Koran itself and the Shariah law that has developed in its shadow. The faith also supplies a justification for aggressive war; vilifies non-believers; and pronounces death upon its enemies. In short, Mr. Wilders argues, it has all the ingredients of what students of 20th century history would recognize as a fully formed totalitarian ideology.
“I see Islam as 95% ideology, 5% religion — the 5% being the temples and the imams,” he tells me. “If you would strip the Koran of all the negative, hateful, anti-Semitic material, you would wind up with a tiny [booklet].”
It’s easy to see why many Europeans casually jump to the conclusion that Mr. Wilders is a hatemonger. He wants to halt non-Western immigration to the Netherlands until existing immigrants can be integrated, and he wants to deport any foreigner who commits a crime — the same sort of policies as those advocated by genuine xenophobes.
But even so, his insistence on the proper distinction between faith and ideology is an idea that deserves to be taken seriously. For it invites the question: If we permit the excoriation of totalitarian cults created by modern dictators, why do we stigmatize (and even criminalize) the excoriation of arguably similar notions when they happen to be attributed to a 7th-century prophet?
It’s a good question. And as far as I know, Geert Wilders is the only Western politician taking it seriously.
National Post
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shut up and pull
climber
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Howard Dean, 2004:
Asked what should befall the ringleader of the vast terror network our country has been in active combat against for over two years, Dr. Dean astoundingly replied that he would have to refrain from making such a pronouncement until a jury rendered its verdict at the end of a criminal trial. Capping this imbecility with his now-familiar knee-jerk smugness, Dean declaimed that those in "positions of executive power" should not "prejudge jury trials."
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shut up and pull
climber
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RUN LIBS, RUUUUNNNNNN!
This is from a speech Obama made in 2006:
The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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good one apogee,
maybe Alice was right about SUAP
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feel the hopey changey?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/02/eveningnews/main20059024.shtml
Pakistan greater U.S. enemy than Qaeda, spy says
CIA source on Osama bin Laden thinks country treated as ally should be referred to as "a hostile country, a hostile state"
One man who was not at all surprised is Afghanistan's former spy chief and for years the CIA's lead source on bin Laden, Amrullah Saleh. In a rare "60 Minutes" interview, he said recently that America's greatest enemy in that region is not al Qaeda. It's Pakistan.
Saleh: You have to give Pakistan a title. Is it a friend? What is Pakistan?
Logan: It currently has the title of ally.
Saleh: Right. Deceptive.
Logan: So you think its title should be?
Saleh: It should be a hostile country, a hostile state.
Logan: So Pakistan is the enemy of the U.S.?
Saleh: The amount of pain Pakistan has inflicted upon the United States in the past 12 years is unprecedented. No other country has inflicted that amount of pain upon your nation.
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shut up and pull
climber
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YA GOTTA LOVE THE LIBS NOW.
Obama in the toilet gets an opportunity to order the killing of OBL inside Pakistan -- and this dolt waits 18 hours before giving the go-ahead.
Now the libs are in full chest-beating mode, after 10 years of telling us:
1. Terrorism is not caused by Muslims, but by all kinds of people -- Christians, KKK, a few Muslims, etc.
2. We should not invade Muslims countries and bomb them, especially if they have oil, because that makes em mad and want to kill us even more (but, bombing Libya for no apparent reason is just A-ok).
3. We must shut down Gitmo.
4. We must repeal the Patriot Act.
5. We must ban waterboarding (tho Obama and the Dems had 2 years to pass a law banning it -- which they somehow forgot to do).
Hey libs -- are you now big supporters of assassination on foreign soil?
Who knew?!!!!!!!!!
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shut up and pull
climber
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Remember -- according to Prez Hopey Changey, terrorism is a baaaad word now -- you might offend the Muslims who like to do it.
Instead -- we must call these acts "man-caused disasters"
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shut up and pull
climber
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I WANNA KNOW ONE THING --
OBAMA IS CONDUCTING WARS IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ, AND NOW LIBYA.
YET THE LIBERAL ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS ARE SILENT.
WHAT GIVES?
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apogee
climber
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suap, your father created a man-made disaster.
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shut up and pull
climber
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REPORT: Housing crash getting worse...
...values fall fastest rate since '08
Well, when you force banks to issue loans to people who are terrible credit risks (as Clinton's DOJ did in the mid-1990s, and Obama-the-lawyer sued to enforce), this is what you get.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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I WANNA KNOW ONE THING --
OBAMA IS CONDUCTING WARS IN AFGHANISTAN, IRAQ, AND NOW LIBYA.
YET THE LIBERAL ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS ARE SILENT.
WHAT GIVES?
suap,
we are too busy fighting the war of ignorance here in the us. see your posts for more details.
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shut up and pull
climber
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10 years. Thousands of protests by libs against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Now? Silence.
Lesson to be learned? If a lib bombs and kills Muslims in oil-rich countries -- it is A-OK.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Next, President Hopey Changey is coming for your guns, SUAP. hope you have enough ammo..,
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The Economist:
A messy business
When a state kills its enemies remotely, the law gets tangled
May 5th 2011 | from the print edition
KILLING quickly in combat, when large numbers of soldiers are fighting according to the laws of war, is sad but legal. Change any of those parameters, and things get tricky. Some lawyers have denounced the killing of Mr bin Laden, unarmed and in his home, as an extra-judicial murder. Others see it as a wholly legitimate military operation.
Every country allows soldiers to use lethal force against a declared enemy in wartime, just as police may, in some circumstances, kill criminals. But America is at war with an organisation, not a country, and though al-Qaeda is not a state it is (by its own account) at war with the United States. Purists argue that the criminal law is the right weapon for defence against terrorists; pragmatists would differ.
In any case, America’s armed forces have legal backing for their actions against al-Qaeda. Though a presidential order of 1976 bars assassinations by America’s spooks, an act of Congress in 2001 authorised the president to use “all necessary and appropriate force” against the perpetrators of the terrorist attack in September of that year.
Next comes the category of person killed. Deliberately targeting civilians in any conflict is illegal. But al-Qaeda has a quasi-military structure, and plenty of precedents exist for killing enemy commanders in wartime: in April 1943 America ambushed Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the Japanese naval commander, on the express orders of President Franklin Roosevelt. Critics of America’s actions are arguing that Mr bin Laden was no longer the effective commander of al-Qaeda. But that would be hard to prove.
Location can be controversial too. Russia sees the émigré Chechen leadership, for example, as legitimate targets and has killed them in places such as Qatar, to the fury of the local authorities. The assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, a Hamas commander, in Dubai in January 2010, presumably by Israel, aroused similar ire. But Pakistan has itself used lethal force against al-Qaeda and allowed American drone attacks, for all its loud complaining now.
Timing complicates the question further. Bombing soldiers in a hospital, or shooting them after they have surrendered, is a war crime. Soldiers are under no legal duty to give their opponents a chance to surrender, though if the white flag is shown it must usually be honoured. Nobody has suggested that Mr bin Laden tried to surrender. But his shooting while unarmed raises questions about the nature of his resistance. Any video footage of the attack will be closely scrutinised to see whether he was a combatant, rather than a prisoner.
Behind the controversy is a change not in the laws of war but in the means of waging it. Drone strikes were measured in dozens under George Bush. They number many hundreds under Barack Obama. They allow an official sitting in America to kill someone thousands of miles away. Such killings usually escape scrutiny—and controversy—because they preclude any chance of surrender. Killing someone in the same room is always going to be more complicated.
from the print edition |
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apogee
climber
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fattrad, it is very difficult for the neocons and their lap-poodle, the GOP, to admit that they failed.
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shut up and pull
climber
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The single greatest truth to understand from the last 10 years is that we at war with an ideology -- Islam. It is not "radical Islam" or "Islamism" -- it is Islam.
Read the Quran.
Go to MEMRI web site and listen to the sermons coming out of the major mosques.
The idea that "radical Islam" is some small percentage of the problem is extremely wishful thinking.
Good to see Obama has the stones to assassinate one of Islam's favorite sons -- OBL -- as he sat on his ass in a Muslim country -- Pakistan.
Lets hope Barry Hussein has the testicular fortitude to carry on the fight -- God knows his party has a terrible track record of demonizing those that do.
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shut up and pull
climber
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JUST ANOTHER IDIOT:
Rosie O'Donnell upset because Obama didnt give Osama due process.
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shut up and pull
climber
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A QUANDRY:
According to libs the past 10 years, it was a singular moral imperative that the most notorious terrorists we have captured (al Libi, KSM, etc.) be given civilian trials, read their Miranda rights, not waterboarded (oh, excuse me, "tortured"), etc. I.e., not treated like terrorists but like ordinary criminals with all the attendant rights.
Yet -- Obama saw absolutely no problem ordering the execution of OBL, as he sat on foreign soil, without a trial, due process, etc.
So -- when the GOP is in power that means the terrorists get all the rights.
But when Barry Hussein is in power -- the libs say "Nahhh, we really didnt mean all the rights crap. Shoot away!"
Again. Too. Funny.
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shut up and pull
climber
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NOAM CHOMSKY -- OFTEN THE INTELLECTUAL LEADER OF A GENERATION OF LIBERALS:
Chomsky very dissapointed in the killing of OBL.
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shut up and pull
climber
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[1] Obama shocking Quote: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'
[SOURCE: From "From Dreams of My Father" by Barack Hussein Obama, page-15]
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shut up and pull
climber
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[2] Obama shocking Quote:That hate hadn’t gone away,' he wrote, 'blaming' white people — some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.'
[SOURCE: From "From Dreams of My Father" by Barack Hussein Obama]
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shut up and pull
climber
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[3] Obama shocking Quote:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white . . .
[SOURCE: From "From Dreams of My Father" by Barack Hussein Obama]
[4] Obama shocking Quote:'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.' While in college, Obama wrote (he) disapproved of what he called other "half-breeds” who gravitated toward whites instead of blacks.
[SOURCE: From "From Dreams of My Father" by Barack Hussein Obama, pages-99-100]
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shut up and pull
climber
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BUT WAIT -- THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD -- OSAMA'S INSPIRATION -- IS A "MODERATE SECULAR" MUSLIM GROUP!
BARRY RUBIN SAYS the situation in Egypt is deteriorating badly and rapidly. And I’m sorry to say that I’m not surprised. It was fashionable to cheer the downfall of Hosni Mubarak, and I, too, took pleasure in seeing him go, but Egypt is, I think, the least likely of all the Arab countries to emerge from a revolution in decent shape. I know some terrific Egyptians who would build a wonderful country if given the opportunity, but they are outnumbered.
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apogee
climber
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suap and fattrad, you two should get a room.
(Don't post a TR, please.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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SUAP,
Please stop embarrassing our liberal friends, their heads might explode.
Is it too late to change my vote in that thread where I voted for you Fatty?
On a different note: It's worth noting that Pakistan might very well have had Bin Laden under their nose without knowing it. Both Pakistan and India have a surprising level of incompetence on certain things. Proof? They also had the CIA spying on Bin Laden from a nearby rented house for months and weren't onto them either. (at least according to our Gov)
Peace
Karl
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monolith
climber
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Cut them a little slack regarding the CIA, Karl. The highly trained CIA was in the house for just a few months. Bin Laden, wives, kids, associates were there for 5+ years. No comparison.
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shut up and pull
climber
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I JUST CANT GET OVER THE HILARITY OF THE MOMENT:
1. Obama orders the assassination of a worshipped Muslim terror leader as he sits in his residence in the middle of Pakistan.
2. Obama promised to shut down Gitmo within his first year in office -- but just caaaant seem to get around to actually doing it, even with the Dems controlling the House and the Senate.
3. Obama and the hard left railed on Bush for his tax cuts -- sooo -- what does Barry Hussein do? Keeps them in place because, as he admitted, raising taxes would hurt the economy. Hmmm ... if as Obama says -- tax hikes hurt the economy -- why would you ever want to raise taxes?
4. Oh the eeeeeeeeeeevil Patriot Act -- Obama kept that too.
5. Secret prisons where we can use "enhanced interrogation techniques" at whim -- Obama kept those too.
6. Bring 9-11 mastermind to NYC for a nice little show trial, even after this scumbag said he would admit guilty in a military tribunal and face the death penalty? Barry Hussein and his wonder-boy AG Holder decided -- naahhh, we will skip that too, after promising for months to do so.
I tell ya, if I imagine myself as a liberal (oooooooooo, frightening thought), my head is a spinning right now trying to keep all this straight.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat and SUAP...Trump, Newt, Palin...losers. You have six more years of Obama.
Fat...2014...your head explode, 2012 for SUAP.
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shut up and pull
climber
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I JUST CANT GET OVER THE HILARITY OF THE MOMENT:
1. Obama orders the assassination of a worshipped Muslim terror leader as he sits in his residence in the middle of Pakistan.
2. Obama promised to shut down Gitmo within his first year in office -- but just caaaant seem to get around to actually doing it, even with the Dems controlling the House and the Senate.
3. Obama and the hard left railed on Bush for his tax cuts -- sooo -- what does Barry Hussein do? Keeps them in place because, as he admitted, raising taxes would hurt the economy. Hmmm ... if as Obama says -- tax hikes hurt the economy -- why would you ever want to raise taxes?
4. Oh the eeeeeeeeeeevil Patriot Act -- Obama kept that too.
5. Secret prisons where we can use "enhanced interrogation techniques" at whim -- Obama kept those too.
6. Bring 9-11 mastermind to NYC for a nice little show trial, even after this scumbag said he would admit guilty in a military tribunal and face the death penalty? Barry Hussein and his wonder-boy AG Holder decided -- naahhh, we will skip that too, after promising for months to do so.
I tell ya, if I imagine myself as a liberal (oooooooooo, frightening thought), my head is a spinning right now trying to keep all this straight.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Bobby - why on earth would I vote for Trump, Palin, or Newt?
Geez man.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Must you be such an as#@&%e all the time, Hawkeye?
you are funny at times crowley, i got to admit.i figured you got tired of responding to suap....helpin you out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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So Obama is governing just like you approve SUAP, What's your beef?
Obama's the best GOP president in years. Better hope he doesn't turn on you and save medicare!
Personally, I'm kinda disappointed but I'm a liberal (ie baby killing, fag loving, pinko, take your money and give it to criminal deadbeat, low life of society dirtbag scum, like most climbers)
Peace
karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Obama promised to shut down Gitmo within his first year in office -- but just caaaant seem to get around to actually doing it, even with the Dems controlling the House and the Senate.
The U.S. is not a dictatorship and Obama is not a dictator. He cannot order congressmen and Senators to vote a certain way, even if they are Dems. Yes, Dems controlled the House and Senate, but they did not support him in this objective and therefore he could not accomplish it.
Oh the eeeeeeeeeeevil Patriot Act -- Obama kept that too.
Obama never said he'd repeal it. Why would he? He voted for it.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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The Liberal Progressives screamed in happiness, "There's maiming and killing afoot. Screaming and cursing, clatter of swords, bang of guns. Faces distorted with pain and hate. It's terrifying, but it is to be expected when led by such a mighty Lord as Obama!
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Psychopathic Manchild AC chimes in.
His deceivingly harmless state of mind is uncomprehending of the necessities to vanquish the enemy in the real world.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Karl -- come on man. We conservatives got to hear ya libs screamin for 10 years about how Bush and the neocons wanted to torture, kill Muslims, raid Muslim oil fields, keep innocents in Gitmo, cut taxes for the rich, etc.
And now Barry Hussein -- your man -- is just saying "ditto" -- and you libs are silent?
The question is -- why? Why are you silent if these issues were so crucial just a few years ago?
Makes ya wonder -- maybe all that hot air about "torture" and "warmonger Republicans" was just a big bunch of crap, a big ol bluff.
Am I wrong?
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shut up and pull
climber
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See, here is my view.
You libs are just as aware of the threat of Muslim terrorism as we conservatives are, yet you have claimed basically in the last 10 years that we conservatives were overreacting, we were warmongers, etc.
And now -- you are all for the anti-terror policies of Bush, being carried out by Obama.
You owe conservatives a major apology, or at least an admission that all that bluster about Bush being a war criminal, etc., was just that -- crap.
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shut up and pull
climber
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What I love about posting in rooms full o libs is that their usual reactions to conservative points of view are 1) You suck!, or 2) You are a racist!, or 3) Neocon nazi!, or something similar.
Rarely do you see libs engage in the ideas put forth. But what can a conservative expect? These are talking points of the left -- demonize and destroy.
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monolith
climber
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Suap, how about giving the libs an apology for conservatives calling them weak on terrorists?
You had a couple of years of Bin Laden in Abbottabad and couldn't get the job done.
Obama made it a priority to go after Bin Laden. Bush, eh, why try, Iraq is more fun.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Lets see -- did the Dems want to waterboard the main guys for 911? Hell no.
Did the Dems rename terrorism to the hilariously called "man caused disaster?" Yup, they sure did.
Did the libs call General Petraeus -- General Betrayus? They sure did.
Did the libs call for the shutting down of Gitmo? They sure did.
Is Obama investigating now the same CIA interrogators who found the info on OBL? Yes he is.
Did AG Holder refuse to use the term "Islamic Terrorism" when questioned by COngress? He sure did.
How many times did Clinton refuse to kill OBL? Many.
Did Clinton's DOJ hack Jaime Gorelick create "the wall" in the 1990s that prevented the CIA and FBI from sharing information on terrorism? She sure did.
Did major Dem leaders, like Harry Reid and JOhn Kerry, rush to see Michael Moore's Farenheit 911, which blamed Bush for causing 911? They sure did.
And there are example after example of Dems going soft on our enemy.
So -- no -- we conservatives will never apologize to you libs for your defense and support of our enemy in a time of war.
You libs scolded us for wanting to hammer terrorists.
You libs scolded us for trying to interrogate these animals for info before the next attack.
Sorry -- no apology to the left. They hate America anyways.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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And now Barry Hussein -- your man -- is just saying "ditto" -- and you libs are silent?
I've been repeatedly criticizing Obama.
So has the whole progressive moment. Read www.commondreams.org. They are all over Obama for that stuff.
So chill dude. The same people are in charge now that were in charge during Bush's term. They just have better things to do than govern so they hire Republicans and Democrats to do it.
They are just like the two kinds of music, Country AND Western
You swallowed the koolaid and now you've gone mad and even the people who mostly agree with you are embarrassed to have you on their side on this board. Pretend to have some equilibrium eh?
Peace
karl
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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You swallowed the koolaid and now you've gone mad and even the people who mostly agree with you are embarrassed to have you on their side on this board. Pretend to have some equilibrium eh?
Who knows if any anonymous poster who acts over the top is "legitimate" (by that I mean voicing an honest opinion) or is just trolling, and may in fact be promoting views that are the opposite of what he/she truly believes.
I think it's possible that SUAP is pinko commie who is just ranting to embarrass "true" conservatives.
But I sometimes think the same about Palin, so it's hard to say.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 12:09am PT
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SUAP,
You seem to think that all Dems, Progressives, Liberals, and Independents are enthralled with Obama. Got news for you, we aren't. He has turned out to be someone else other than the person who campaigned and made all those wonderful promises.
Like I said, he is the best Republican President since Eisenhower. I'm still waiting for the Change and Hope I Can Believe In. I thought I was voting for a Democrat who had progressive values like he talked about before becoming President.
I'm trying to determine who Obama really is. I do know that Zbigniew Brzezinski has been a huge influence on his policies (wow, grrrreeeeaaattt), and he has deep ties to Wall Street and the Bankers (hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm). (Read with dripping sarcasm). Webster Griffin Tarpley has a great deal to say about him. Wish I knew all this before the election. But what choice did we have? Maybe that was the point. We had no choice and "they" knew it.
See the difference between us and the Rethugs, GOPers, Neo-cons, Tea-Partiers etc., is that we can admit when the person we voted for is screwing up and less than what we hoped for.
You guys on the other hand worship at the feet of your heart-less elected or selected politicians no matter what.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Read who's book?
Obama's? Tarpley's? Someone else? Who?
Even if we didn't read any books regarding Obama, he is not who he said he was. He is not keeping his promises, and he is going nearly full-tilt in the other direction.
You know a man by what he does, not what he says.
Like I said, Obama is the best Republican President since Eisenhower.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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The book to read is "Radical in Chief"
An in-depth look at Obama's roots as a socialist.
He was a socialist, and is a socialist.
Steal money from the productive, redistribute to those that do not produce. That is his main focus. Oh - and apologize for America around the world, and redistribute our wealth to basketcase countries.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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Karl -- I like your perspective even tho we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.
My core belief is basically traditional liberalism -- protection of individual liberties from the tyranny of the elite.
I believe the more government, the less freedom.
The GOP and their Dem friends have for years grown our governments to a point where freedom is seriously at risk.
The TEA party was the biggest breath of fresh air we have seen in a long time, and they led the shellacking of the Dems that was the biggest in 75 years. Oh -- and it really helped to have the Dems ram socialized medicine down our throats -- thanks.
I dont trust either party -- but I know one thing -- the Dems have gone plum crazy and I am really scared of them. At least the GOP mouths the right messages -- whether the TEA party can hold them to their promises remain to be seen.
The Dems are socialist/corporatist, period. They view big business as an ally to co-opt for their own use. Freedom is a distraction from the Dems' goal of "progress" -- meaning a Euro-welfare state where the individual is a stone to step on, not respect.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 01:23am PT
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What I wish liberals would do is admit they are marxist. Just admit it. Admit that they view earned income as something the state should take and give to those that did not earn it.
And then? You will see what true "liberalism" is all about -- destroying capitalist freedom in exchange for collectivism, a race to mediocrity. The Soviets tried that little experiment -- so did Pol Pot, Mao, and Castro. All failed. Why? Because man's first nature is to take care of himself, not others. So when government or dictators try and force men to first care for others through collectivist experiments, men refuse, and then the elite must "educate" them to be "politically correct." The story is the same, and has been repeated time and again last century. Whether you call it Fascism, Naziism, Communism, etc. -- the same theme pervades -- the state is your God, and you will obey.
Within every liberal today is a dictator waiting to get out. Its why you see so many liberals -- even Obama -- wishing they didnt have to deal with these messy things like free speech, or elections (unless, of course, it helps them). Its why Obama wished he could be like China's leaders.
Today's "liberalism" is not liberal at all -- it is the antithesis of liberalism. It strives for a continual growth of government taking control of our lives, through taxation, regulation, and speech control. To a liberal, no social problem is out of reach of the regulators.
Liberals used to stand for freedom. Now they stand for collectivist tyranny that is the rank opposite of the values America was founded upon.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 01:29am PT
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Klimmer -- the TEA party cannot stand the old GOP, and is remaking it from the inside by focusing on one main thing -- cutting spending.
THe Dems have never seen a government program that they didnt like -- except maybe national defense.
The TEA party is rooting out RINOs and kicking them to the curb. The RINOs, the repubs who speak conservatively but vote liberally, are toast.
As Obama said, you guys were shellacked last election -- the biggest sweep in 75 years. Why? TEA party.
The only reason either party is discussing the dire financial situation we are in is the TEA party. God bless em.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 10, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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SUAP, Can you name two or three countries among the 195 countries in the world that do things more to your liking than the United States?
Seems to me that all the ones doing really well have a more socialist system than we do.
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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SUAP,
The Tea Party and their worship of the sociopath Ayn Rand are nuts . . .
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1472431/The-GOP-and-Tea-Partys-Love-Afair-with-Ayn-Rand-OT
Sorry, not what I want for America.
Most of America doesn't want that either, nor do they agree with the Tea Party philosophy when they really understand it, and the fact they are backed up with the rantings of Ayn Rand.
When they realize what you Tea-Partiers are all about they will run from you screaming. Tea Partiers lied to America and hid who they truly are, and were financed by the corrupt Billionaire Koch Brothers. The TPers are morally and ethically bankrupt. America doesn't want that. They only came to office by lying to and fooling the common people regarding who they really are. The TPers are wolves in sheep clothing.
The backers of the Tea Party: The Koch Brothers
Now we know. Recalls are moving forward and are going to happen soon. Many signatures are collected right now across the nation to do so.
The Truth About GOP Hero Ayn Rand – ThinkProgressVideo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7zwO88nRH8
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 02:34am PT
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Why I doubt the latest assassination of OBL . . .
I'll just let Paul Watson list the reasons . . .
http://www.infowars.com/10-facts-that-prove-the-bin-laden-fable-is-a-contrived-hoax/
(actual article has many links to sources)
10 Facts That Prove The Bin Laden Fable Is a Contrived Hoax
Paul Joseph Watson
Infowars.com
May 9, 2011
Merely a week after President Obama announced the death of Osama Bin Laden, there is literally a deluge of evidence that clearly indicates the whole episode has been manufactured for political gain and to return Americans to a state of post-9/11 intellectual castration so that they can be easily manipulated in the run up to the 2012 election. Here are ten facts that prove the Bin Laden fable is a contrived hoax….
1) Before last Sunday’s raid, every intelligence analyst, geopolitical commentator or head of state worth their salt was on record as stating that Osama Bin Laden was already dead, and that he probably died many years ago, from veteran CIA officer Robert Baer, to former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to former FBI head of counterterrorism Dale Watson. In addition, back in 2002 Alex Jones was told directly by two separate high level sources that Bin Laden was already dead and that his death would be announced at the most politically opportune moment. Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under five different Presidents, serving as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under the Nixon, Ford and Carter, told the Alex Jones Show last week that Bin Laden died of marfan syndrome shortly after he was visited by CIA physicians at the American Hospital in Dubai in July 2001.
2) The official narrative of how the raid unfolded completely collapsed within days of its announcement. First there had been a 40 minute shootout, then there was no shootout and just one man was armed, first Bin Laden was armed then he was not, first Bin Laden used his wife as a human shield and then he did not. First the compound was described as a “$1 million dollar mansion” then it turned out to be a rubbish-strewn dilapidated compound that was worth less than a quarter of that. Almost every single aspect of the official narrative has changed since Obama first described the raid last Sunday as the White House struggles to keep its story straight.
3) The alleged body of Bin Laden was hastily dumped in the sea to prevent any proper procedure of identification. The White House claimed this was in accordance with normal Islamic burial rituals, however numerous Muslim scholars all over the globe disputed this claim, pointing out that Muslims can only be buried at sea if they die at sea. While the White House claimed that Bin Laden’s death on May 1st was proven by DNA and facial recognition evidence, such proof was never released for public scrutiny and the Obama administration refused to release photos of Bin Laden’s dead body, suggesting a cover-up.
4) Despite the fact that the White House released “situation room” photos which purported to show Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden and the rest of Obama’s security staff watching the raid which killed Bin Laden live, it was later admitted by CIA director Leon Panetta that Obama could not have seen the raid because the live feed was cut off before the Navy SEALS entered the compound. The photos were described by many as having “historical significance,” forming a “captivating” record of Obama’s greatest success and being the “defining moment” of his Presidency. One image showed Hillary Clinton with her hand over her mouth as if witnessing an anxious or crucial moment in the raid. Media reports at the time claimed that the photos represented the moment when “The leader of the free world saw the terror chief shot in the left eye.” However, the photos were staged as a PR stunt for public consumption, nobody in the photos ever saw Bin Laden killed live, nor did they see the Navy SEALS even enter the compound.
5) As even mainstream journalists began to cast suspicion on the official narrative behind the raid, the media reported that Al-Qaeda itself had confirmed every detail of Obama’s address the the nation. However, the conduit for such a claim was in fact an organization called SITE, which is a notorious Pentagon propaganda front run by the daughter of an Israeli spy that has been caught on numerous occasions releasing fake cartoonish “Al-Qaeda” videos at the most politically expedient times for both the Bush and Obama administrations. The SITE organization is nothing more than a contractor for the U.S. government, receiving some $500,000 a year annually from Uncle Sam, and yet the corporate media instantly swallowed and regurgitated the claim that “Al-Qaeda” had confirmed the official story after SITE directed them to an anonymous posting on an Islamic website.
6) Almost every single neighbor that lived near the alleged Bin Laden compound in Abbottabad that was interviewed by news reporters said with absolute certainty that they had never seen Bin Laden and that they knew of no evidence whatsoever to suggest he lived there. Since the town is a staging ground for the Pakistani military, which has a training facility situated virtually a stone’s throw away from the alleged Bin Laden compound, residents were required to show ID when they moved into the area. Pakistani troops and anti-terror police in the town refused to confirm that Bin Laden had lived in the house. Barack Obama himself admitted to 60 Minutes that the White House was only 55/45 sure that Osama lived there before the raid and this uncertainty prompted concerns that the US Navy SEALS sent in could have targeted a “prince from Dubai” or some other individual that was not Bin Laden.
7) The videos released by the White House this past weekend which purport to show Osama Bin Laden making Al-Qaeda tapes in October-November 2010 are almost identical to footage first released by Pentagon front group SITE nearly four years ago. Remember, a May 2010 Washington Post story reported how the CIA had admitted to making fake Bin Laden videos. Despite the White House’s insistence that the footage of Bin Laden is recent, he looks younger and healthier than tapes released almost a decade ago, having apparently dyed his beard black. A separate video that purports to show Bin Laden in his compound flicking through satellite TV channels depicts a much older looking man with a gray beard. Analysts have pointed out that the man has different shaped ears to real Osama pictures from back in 2001. A doctor has also pointed out the fact that the man in the tapes released Saturday has no problem moving his left arm, whereas video from 2001 clearly illustrates how Bin Laden was unable to move his left upper extremity because of a permanent injury probably related to damage to the peripheral nerves. Why the cameraman would film the back of Bin Laden’s head as he watches television is also dubious. Residents in the town of Abbottabad claim the man in the “television” video is not Osama, with one individual claiming that the man labeled by the White House as being Bin Laden is actually his neighbor, a man named Akhbar Han.
8) Despite the fact that numerous neo-cons came out on the days after the alleged raid to erroneously assert that torturing terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay led to the discovery of Bin Laden, Osama himself, the supposed world’s most wanted terrorist and a treasure trove of terror information, despite the fact that he was unarmed, was not taken in for questioning, he was instantly shot in the head according to the official narrative.
9) The US government has been caught on several occasions within the past decade staging military operations for the purposes of generating contrived, pro-war sentiment amongst the American public. Both the “rescue” of Jessica Lynch and the death of Pat Tillman were complete fables, scripted and staged at complete odds with the truth and unleashed on Americans as part of a psychological warfare offensive to elicit support for the war on terror, almost identical to what we’re seeing now with the Bin Laden sideshow. Given the fact that the US government has been caught red-handed scripting tales of pure fiction in order to justify the war on terror, notably in the cases of Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman, why on earth should we believe them now?
10) Despite the fact that Obama announced last Sunday on live television that the world was now “safer” because Bin Laden was dead, his administration, with the aid of the fearmongering mass media, instantly seized upon the situation to terrify Americans into being afraid of imminent “reprisal” terror attacks inside the United States, later claiming that Bin Laden had formulated an “aspirational rather than operational” plan to derail US trains that travel over 500mph, although no trains in the US can actually travel at such speeds. This led “terror experts” to salivate over how TSA agents were now needed in shopping malls to stick their hands down Americans’ pants, while New York Senator Chuckie Schumer called for the no fly list to be expanded to trains and subways. Obama hurried to ground zero for a photo op as he desperately tried to use the Bin Laden hoax to whip up phony patriotism as a means of boosting his flagging poll numbers. Others, like Democrat Bill Richardson, exploited the situation to try and push through policies that had no connection to Bin Laden or terrorism at all, like cap and trade. The haste with which the whole Bin Laden fable was exploited for political points scoring and as a psychological ploy to return Americans to a post-9/11 state of intellectual castration was painfully transparent, clearly suggesting that the entire farce was planned well in advance to achieve precisely those goals in the run up to 2012.
—
Paul Joseph Watson is the editor and writer for Prison Planet.com. He is the author of Order Out Of Chaos. Watson is also a regular fill-in host for The Alex Jones Show.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 02:39am PT
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I love the names of Klimmer's sources....
INFOWARS!
PRISON PLANET!
DEMORATICUNDERGROUND!
9/11 TRUTH!
And that he thinks funny photoshop pictures help to support his argument.
I also love that SUAP and Klimmer will now continue to intellectually jerk each other off for the next 50 posts.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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May 10, 2011 - 02:45am PT
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The Liberal Progressives screamed in happiness,
"There's maiming and killing afoot. Screaming and cursing, clatter of swords, bang of guns. Faces distorted with pain and hate. It's terrifying, but it is to be expected when led by such a mighty Lord as Obama!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 02:47am PT
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Truth is where you find it.
Port,
I suppose you worship and get all your news at FAUX News, am I right?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 03:14am PT
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Port,
I suppose you worship and get all your news at FAUX News, am I right?
Lol, not at all. You'd be surprised how much we agree on things Klimmer.
Just not on God, government, conspiracy, and science.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 10, 2011 - 08:42am PT
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 10, 2011 - 10:09am PT
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Steal money from the productive, redistribute to those that do not produce.
Karl Marx wrote volumes of books about capitalism, and SUAP here just boiled all that down to a dozen words. Brilliant! That's the most concise definition of capitalism ever. Mind if I use that, SUAP?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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May 10, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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Klimmer said You seem to think that all Dems, Progressives, Liberals, and Independents are enthralled with Obama. Got news for you, we aren't. He has turned out to be someone else other than the person who campaigned and made all those wonderful promises.
Which promises? I have several friends who have this attitude and most of their complaints are about things that he promised TO do (like commit more troops to Afghanistan and make the Afghanistan/Pakistan border our focus in the "war on terror") or about things that he has little power to actually control (like trying Guantanamo detainees in the States). If you actually respond to this post, please leave anything sourced at Infowars or about Arks on the moon. Thanks.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 10, 2011 - 11:30am PT
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I think people were discombobulated by the idea of a president who could actually speak in complete sentences.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 10, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
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I have no idea what the real truth is via Bin Laden. I've been reading all sides, but have posted links and references, many of then from major networks for the different perspectives I've put out there.
There may be some exaggerations in the article of Watson that Klimmer posted at
http://www.infowars.com/10-facts-that-prove-the-bin-laden-fable-is-a-contrived-hoax/
but it's worth considering those points (which also have links and references) if you are inclined to buy the party line hook, line and sinker. Those who want to cry Tin Foil Hat without considering any evidence are intellectual cowards, particularly after the government itself has been plainly and demonstrably (By mainstream standards mind you) caught in boldfaced lies for the sake of propaganda in the Lynch, Tilman and other operations.
Now it's possible that Bin Laden as alive and some Generals and Highly placed people decided that spreading the rumour that he was dead served some purpose and was picked up by sources cited in that piece. That would also raise questions about why Government and military people would want us to think Bin Laden was dead (even as we continued to search for him sort of)
Peace
Karl
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 10, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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this is still going?
i hear the 3d generation anti-psychotics have a lot fewer side effects than the thorazine.
maybe cmac can solicit volunteers to do comparison review for ST.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 10, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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Coz wrote
I no longer read Karl, or Klimmer, both live in a world of their minds own creation and both need to study something besides what they choose to believe.
There's no reasoning with those two, they just spew, the same crapola, over and over
I don't think I've seen you cite any fact or try to use any reason this whole thread. Maybe you're too important and busy or just lazy, but don't use my closemindedness as a excuse because people know me here and will plainly see you are talking smack.
Earlier I wrote, and you didn't respond (and perhaps you're post above is your excuse for not explaining yourself, so I'll repost below)
Coz wrote
Karl,
I can only say to you and the treehugger, disgruntled vet DMT, two words.
Resource domination. That's the reason everyone since the Mongels have been involved in Afganistan. That's just basic knowledge, I'd hope...
I have to hope you're kidding on this. I mean, if you're willing to advocate invading a country and violently dominating it to control resources, you're advocating killing thousands of innocent people in the process. How is that so different from Bin Laden advocating killing thousands of innocent people to push them out of dominating Muslim Countries? It this just plain cold selfishness without any morality? We only hate evil when it's directed against us?
Well? What's the difference between your philosophy of advocating innocent killing and Bin Laden's (at least he condemned it for women and kids when denying 9-11 involvement in a non-fake video that everybody admits was him. God knows if he changed his mind in a few days and suddenly admitted to what he just said was immoral and wrong or if the government made a fake Bin Laden Video, which the CIA has admitted to doing)
peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
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He is EXACTLY the person who campaigned. I recall all the stary eyed bullshit on this forum during the election - dumbasses painting President Obama to be the 2nd Coming of the Mahatma or something.
Those people were not actually listening to what the candidate was saying...
DMT
DMT nailed it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 10, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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They wanted to build a pipeline through Afghanistan before the war started and the Taliban wasn't very cooperative, even after we gave them 56 million or so for opium eradication (now there's FAR more opium being grown in Afghanistan under our noses than under the Taliban, probably killing more people over time than died in 9-11)
But the Afghans have other resources
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
"WASHINGTON — The United States has discovered nearly $1 trillion in untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, far beyond any previously known reserves and enough to fundamentally alter the Afghan economy and perhaps the Afghan war itself, according to senior American government officials.
The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world, the United States officials believe....
Still, a trillion isn't so much when we look at how much these wars have been costing
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Railay, Thailand
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May 10, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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it would pay the interest on our debt to china....
for a little while.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 10, 2011 - 01:30pm PT
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US have stepped up their sorties [drones, aircraft……..] blowing Taliban into submission as we write. Waiting for a white flag soon. Still be lone wolfs that will want to heroes to their cause. GO US, Kick ass.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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The whole purpose of "the War on Terror," and having "Bogeymen" we can be made to fear at any moment is to:
Slowly eradicate our Constitution and Bill of Rights, to slowly reduce and take away our rights and freedoms.
Turn America into a nation of the Rich and the Poor, "the Haves" and the "Have-nots."
Have an endless excuse for War and to maintain War. ("There will be Wars and Rumors of War," as The Good Lord while on Earth said would happen, and they would continually cause.)
Have endless War Profiteering by the Military-Industrial-Spy Complex.
Have an endless excuse to go into any country on the guise of fighting "Terror" and take their Natural Resources (ie fossil fuels, strategic minerals and metals, gold, diamonds etc.)
And they will make "the enemy" (the bogeymen terrorists) feel or do whatever they need them to feel or do, to continue the vicious cycle to continue this cycle indefinitely.
I really don't see any other purposes for the made-up "War on Terror."
Edit:
Consider, we don't ever seem to invade countries that have "broccoli" as their exporting resource, or that have no natural resources at all, nor do we seem to go to their aid or defense. We only seem to invade countries, or go to a countries defense, that have rich energy and mineral wealth natural resources, or have stacks of Gold such as Libya.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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Klimmer said
"You seem to think that all Dems, Progressives, Liberals, and Independents are enthralled with Obama. Got news for you, we aren't. He has turned out to be someone else other than the person who campaigned and made all those wonderful promises."
Which promises? I have several friends who have this attitude and most of their complaints are about things that he promised TO do (like commit more troops to Afghanistan and make the Afghanistan/Pakistan border our focus in the "war on terror") or about things that he has little power to actually control (like trying Guantanamo detainees in the States). If you actually respond to this post, please leave anything sourced at Infowars or about Arks on the moon. Thanks.
HDDJ,
I'm pretty much in agreement with Rabbi Lerner has to say in his article below. . .
Tikkun Magazine, November/December 2010
Will Obama Stop Betraying His Progressive Base?
By Rabbi Michael Lerner
http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/will-obama-stop-betraying-his-progressive-base
Also this page has much to say . . .
http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2011/04/23/can-progressives-find-a-candidate-to-challenge-obama/
A group of web-organized Democrats calling itself the New Progressive Alliance has rallied together in the hopes of challenging Barack Obama in the 2012 Democratic presidential primaries. They are looking for a candidate who will support the following values:
1) Full Employment
2) Medicare for All
3) Civil Rights/Human Rights/Civil Liberties
4) Fair Trade
5) End the Wars Now
I think most Americans can agree on much of this. We were hoping we would get that with Obama. The Democratic Progressive base put Obama into office without a doubt ...
1) Full Employment
2) Medicare for All
3) Civil Rights/Human Rights/Civil Liberties
4) Fair Trade
5) End the Wars Now
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 10, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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Steal money from the productive, redistribute to those that do not produce.
Yep, pretty much sums up the relationship between blue and red states - republicans LIVE at the federal trough.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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May 10, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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Fatty said Vote Fattrad/Walling 2012
Endorsed by John Long (you guys trust him, right??)
You are mistaking an endorsement for an "endorsement."
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dirtbag
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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Anyone who still falls for the media fed stories, has not paid attention in a long time.
Yeah, that ONE SINGULAR entity the media has been feeding us shyte. LOL.
Funny thing...whichever mainstream media outlet prints a credible story about the "truth" behind 9/11 is guaranteed a pulitzer prize, big bucks, and countless attaboys. I wonder why they haven't run with it? And if Dick Cheney is all powerful and evil, why hasn't he smote Alex Jones and his buddies?
Ah, but the truth is out there!
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dirtbag
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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You know what else is funny?
People turning to Alex Jone$ and other tin foilers while bitching that the MSM feeds us crap for profit. Alex Jone$ is laughing hi$ way to the bank. Where would he be without the kooks?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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May 10, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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Rokjox and Klimmer posted A group of web-organized Democrats calling itself the New Progressive Alliance has rallied together in the hopes of challenging Barack Obama in the 2012 Democratic presidential primaries. They are looking for a candidate who will support the following values:
1) Full Employment
2) Medicare for All
3) Civil Rights/Human Rights/Civil Liberties
4) Fair Trade
5) End the Wars Now
Most of those are utopian goals and not "values." They are also incredibly vague and ignore the reality of what the President does and is capable of. They also aren't things that Obama ran on the first time, nor are they things that Obama can run on and win a second time.
dirtbag posted You know what else is funny?
People turning to Alex Jone$ and other tin foilers while bitching that the MSM feeds us crap for profit. Alex Jone$ is laughing hi$ way to the bank. Where would he be without the kooks?
Excellent point.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 10, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
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Quick question:
Does anyone know why "we" killed Osama, instead of keeping him under perpetual surveillance?
All we needed to do is bug his compound, follow his couriers and bug their residences/phones/computers, etc., and AQ could have been so thoroughly compromised that the "war on terror" may actually have been won.
My theory: Obama would rather have the political gain from having killed Osama than the benefit of spying on him, as the spying can't be publicized.
Weak sauce, but I can't think of any other rational explanation.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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Quick question:
Does anyone know why "we" killed Osama, instead of keeping him under perpetual surveillance?
All we needed to do is bug his compound, follow his couriers and bug their residences/phones/computers, etc., and AQ could have been so thoroughly compromised that the "war on terror" may actually have been won.
My theory: Obama would rather have the political gain from having killed Osama than the benefit of spying on him, as the spying can't be publicized.
Weak sauce, but I can't think of any other rational explanation.
CIA agents were stationed at a house nearby to keep him under surveillance.
How do you know the U.S. didn't do those things you mentioned?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 10, 2011 - 07:30pm PT
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Rumour is Bin Laden was shot using German engineering: HK 416 [Heckler & Koch]. Will have to wait to see if there is a run/buy on these.
Most likely this variation or modification.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 10, 2011 - 07:33pm PT
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sexy gun.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 10, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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He also campaigned for Palin, was the Bay Area chair for Palin's campaign.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 10, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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LIS, where did you hear that rumour? I would tend to think it was a .45 ACP handgun. Close quarters combat weapon of choice for most operators.
But they do carry the HK hardware, but in building, room-to room stuff I hear they go to their .45 handguns.
Doesn't really matter. The f*#ker is dead. 2-3 bullets. Who cares what delivered them....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 12:22am PT
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Something to strongly think about and consider . . .
The Targeted Assassination of Osama Bin Laden
http://mwcnews.net/focus/editorial/10602-assassination-of-bin-laden.html
http://mwcnews.net/component/comprofiler/userprofile/MarjorieCohn.html
"Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law and immediate past president of the National Lawyers Guild. She is the author of Cowboy Republic: Six Ways the Bush Gang Has Defied the Law."
See http://www.marjoriecohn.com
The Targeted Assassination of Osama Bin Laden
Monday, 09 May 2011 19:24
By Marjorie Cohn
When he announced that Osama bin Laden had been killed by a Navy Seal team in Pakistan, President Barack Obama said, “Justice has been done.” Mr. Obama misused the word "justice" when he made that statement. He should have said, "Retaliation has been accomplished." A former professor of constitutional law should know the difference between those two concepts. The word "justice" implies an act of applying or upholding the law.
Targeted assassinations violate well-established principles of international law. Also called political assassinations, they are extrajudicial executions. These are unlawful and deliberate killings carried out by order of, or with the acquiescence of, a government, outside any judicial framework.
Extrajudicial executions are unlawful, even in armed conflict. In a 1998 report, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions noted that “extrajudicial executions can never be justified under any circumstances, not even in time of war.” The U.N. General Assembly and Human Rights Commission, as well as Amnesty International, have all condemned extrajudicial executions.
In spite of its illegality, the Obama administration frequently uses targeted assassinations to accomplish its goals. Five days after executing Osama bin Laden, Mr. Obama tried to bring “justice” to U.S. citizen Anwar al-Awlaki, who has not been charged with any crime in the United States. The unmanned drone attack in Yemen missed al-Awlaki and killed two people “believed to be al Qaeda militants,” according to a CBS/AP bulletin.
Two days before the Yemen attack, U.S. drones killed 15 people in Pakistan and wounded four. Since the March 17 drone attack that killed 44 people, also in Pakistan, there have been four drone strikes. In 2010, American drones carried out 111 strikes. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says that 957 civilians were killed in 2010.
The United States disavowed the use of extrajudicial killings under President Gerald Ford. After the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence disclosed in 1975 that the CIA had been involved in several murders or attempted murders of foreign leaders, President Ford issued an executive order banning assassinations. Every succeeding president until George W. Bush renewed that order. However, the Clinton administration targeted Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, but narrowly missed him.
In July 2001, the U.S. Ambassador to Israel denounced Israel’s policy of targeted killings, or “preemptive operations.” He said “the United States government is very clearly on the record as against targeted assassinations. They are extrajudicial killings, and we do not support that.”
Yet after September 11, 2001, former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer invited the killing of Saddam Hussein: “The cost of one bullet, if the Iraqi people take it on themselves, is substantially less” than the cost of war. Shortly thereafter, Bush issued a secret directive, which authorized the CIA to target suspected terrorists for assassination when it would be impractical to capture them and when large-scale civilian casualties could be avoided.
In November 2002, Bush reportedly authorized the CIA to assassinate a suspected Al Qaeda leader in Yemen. He and five traveling companions were killed in the hit, which Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz described as a “very successful tactical operation.”
After the Holocaust, Winston Churchill wanted to execute the Nazi leaders without trials. But the U.S. government opposed the extrajudicial executions of Nazi officials who had committed genocide against millions of people. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, who served as chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, told President Harry Truman: “We could execute or otherwise punish [the Nazi leaders] without a hearing. But undiscriminating executions or punishments without definite findings of guilt, fairly arrived at, would … not set easily on the American conscience or be remembered by children with pride.”
Osama bin Laden and the “suspected militants” targeted in drone attacks should have been arrested and tried in U.S. courts or an international tribunal. Obama cannot serve as judge, jury and executioner. These assassinations are not only illegal; they create a dangerous precedent, which could be used to justify the targeted killings of U.S. leaders.
Note:
One reply to the above written article is by . . .
Satish Chandra, a India citizen living in Canada?
http://mwcnews.net/focus/editorial/10602-assassination-of-bin-laden.html
See the very first response.
I would hope that the US Intel agencies are all over this guy. He is really really whacked. He threatens the USA in countless ways in his reply. Unbelievable really. I don't know how someone like this is not in custody and being questioned. He has threatened the USA in countless ways in his pro-India and anti-USA rant . . .
Dangerous, dangerous stuff. Get on it USA intel.
Anyone know how to contact the proper USA authorities to report someone who is threatening the USA with hidden nuclear bombs in several well known US cities in his writings in his blogs, and in this response to an article? More than likely fake but then shouldn't we take all threats seriously and check them out?
FATTRAD, you have connections. What does someone do with this info? Who do you go to?
Seriously.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 11, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 12:52am PT
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Bump.
I'm being serious. Not kidding.
Note:
One reply to the above written article is by . . .
Satish Chandra, a India citizen living in Canada?
http://mwcnews.net/focus/editorial/10602-assassination-of-bin-laden.html
See the very first response.
I would hope that the US Intel agencies are all over this guy. He is really really whacked. He threatens the USA in countless ways in his reply. Unbelievable really. I don't know how someone like this is not in custody and being questioned. He has threatened the USA in countless ways in his pro-India and anti-USA rant . . .
Dangerous, dangerous stuff. Get on it USA intel.
Anyone know how to contact the proper USA authorities to report someone who is threatening the USA with hidden nuclear bombs in several well known US cities in his writings in his blogs, and in this response to an article? More than likely fake but then shouldn't we take all threats seriously and check them out?
FATTRAD, you have connections. What does someone do with this info? Who do you go to?
Seriously.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 01:03am PT
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Obama's? Tarpley's? Someone else? Who?
Even if we didn't read any books regarding Obama, he is not who he said he was. He is not keeping his promises, and he is going nearly full-tilt in the other direction.
You know a man by what he does, not what he says.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/
what far-left idiots don't seem to recognize,is that Obama inherited a disaster of incredible magnitude, that could have turned into the Second Great Depression. Easily.
He devoted his energy to turning that around, and doing other things that would affect the long term mess with healthcare. He did a lot of other things too, in the TWO YEARS he's been in office. The idiots expected him to do everything, all at once, like he'd been elected King.
Had he taken such an approach, we'd be looking at a Repub takeover of the Senate and White House in 18 months. Instead, he has all but guaranteed re-election and possible recapture of the House.
Why do progressives insist upon suicide?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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Scenario:
Bin Laden captured.
Americans, all over the world, kidnapped. Demand: Free Bin Laden, or we will behead one American every hour, on tape. Here is the first ten.
One hundred have been taken, in 30 countries. Not consolidated.
What is your response?
Oops, ten more beheaded.
What is your response?
Is this the scenario you like? Why on earth would you set it up? Why on earth would one want to discuss a possible deception, and he is alive, if that were the case? Convince enough people, and you've set up the above scenario.
There are some things I don't want to know, and I am happy to be uninformed about.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 01:25am PT
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I think most Americans can agree on much of this. We were hoping we would get that with Obama. The Democratic Progressive base put Obama into office without a doubt ...
1) Full Employment
2) Medicare for All
3) Civil Rights/Human Rights/Civil Liberties
4) Fair Trade
5) End the Wars Now
Actually, that 2012 candidate would be: Barack Obama.
Problem is, he would not be running for King, but President. All five are opposed by the Repub majority in the House, so no bill could be passed as such.
The only way to move towards those, is by negotiation and compromise, and get a percentage of what one wants.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 01:39am PT
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Ken,
What you don't think just out right assassinating him (if we did indeed do so?????) couldn't have the same guaranteed blow-back response now?
Now it could be fair game for any US enemy linked to any kind of terrorist group to capture and assassinate Americans just for pure retribution, and then say "fair is fair."
You don't think this US response will make the world safer do you?
It was not justice, it was retribution.
And then we aren't really sure if OBL had anything to do with 9-11. He publically denied it many times in no uncertain terms. Yet he admitted and took credit for other terrorist acts. So he was responsible for other terrorist plots, yes. But 9-11? The evidence isn't there. That's why the FBI didn't list OBL as wanted as a suspect for 9-11.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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Ken,
What you don't think just out right assassinating him (if we did indeed do so?????) couldn't have the same guaranteed blow-back response now?
Now it could be fair game for any US enemy linked to any kind of terrorist group to capture and assassinate Americans just for pure retribution, and then say "fair is fair."
You don't think this US response will make the world safer do you?
It was not justice, it was retribution.
And then we aren't really sure if OBL had anything to do with 9-11. He publically denied it many times in no uncertain terms. Yet he admitted and took credit for other terrorist acts. So he was responsible for other terrorist plots, yes. But 9-11? The evidence isn't there. That's why the FBI didn't list OBL as wanted as a suspect for 9-11.
Klimmer, let me rephrase the situation.
Al-Queda has kidnapped the person that you respect the most in the world, threatening to cut off a finger or toe every hour, just for the fun of it.
What are you willing to do to get them back? Would that be the exact same thing that you would be willing to do if they simply killed that person?
THAT is what they are willing to do.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 11, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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Bluering
Also heard .375, .45 that delivered the blow. You are correct about close quarters, it would depend on if he was in the room or backup at entrance at door, blew the back of brain, spilling contents. So distance would make a difference. Seals retool bullets or shape tips to there specs so could be.
Modified SIG Sauer P226 with either green or red laser and possible addition light [white] mounted on firearm. Seals would have used night vision, white light would interfere. Could have used both. Green better.
You said “Doesn't really matter. The f*#ker is dead. 2-3 bullets. Who cares what delivered them....” correct on that one as well.
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monolith
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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Bin Laden took responsibility for 9/11 in 2004(video) and 2006(audio). Of course, the truthers will cry "fake". Whatever.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
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Nope...you campaigned for her (palin).
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monolith
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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Well Duh, Jolly. Truthers also say al-Qaeda had nothing to do with 9/11.
Why don't you cut'n'paste something about "fire can't melt steel" too?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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Ken M,
Would would be an appropriate response????? Turn Mecca and Medina to glass, watch them give up, it's a "Clash of Civilizations".
You will have surrendered to OBL. It is what he WANTS.
His goal is to create a war between all of Islam and the West. By destroying the religious sacred sites of innocent members of Islam, we will have turned the entire muslim world against us, and will have fulfilled OSL's prediction of who we are, and what we are about.
We set off those nukes, the third will be set off in NYC, from a fishing boat in the harbor. Then the nuclear war begins.
By the way, except for the specific players, this was the same plan as Charles Manson, code named Helter Skelter.
Ooops....ten more hostages killed. And ten more. 100 more taken hostage.
What are you going to do? tick tock. tick tock. Tempis Fugit
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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Yeah, Fatty now says Palin is an "idiot"
Yet he voted for McCain, the man who "vetted" Palin, the man who's "judgment"
Fatty relied on to make much more difficult decision as POTUS.
Blind, ignorant support for the Republican "ticket", no matter who is their candidate.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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Monolith writes
Bin Laden took responsibility for 9/11 in 2004(video) and 2006(audio). Of course, the truthers will cry "fake". Whatever.
let's forget for a minute that those videos are super fishy, one doesn't even look like Bin Laden.
and even forget that the CIA admits to making a fake Bin Laden Video and then handing the program over to the military.
It is indisputable that Bin Laden also denied being invovled with 9-11 at least four or five times before these two videos emerged. Not only did he deny it, but condemned the method because it targeted women and children. It's not as if he didn't already admit involvement in operations like the Cole, and was already on the FBI most wanted list, so it wasn't to save his skin that he initially denied it so why condemn 9-11 as immoral and then admit it?
The video confessions were fake, and contain many clues (Bin Laden using the wrong hand and wearing a gold ring) that they were not real.
Here's the transcript of a Bin Laden Interview with a Pakistani paper denying 9-11
http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html
Particularly relevant portion quoted below
"....I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam.
All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti-Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. ...
Now that doesn't mean Al Queda, whatever that is, wasn't behind 9-11. At the time, the media explained that Al Queda wasn't a centrally run organization but that cells organized themselves and did operations as they chose under the banner of Al Queda. (sorta like somebody calling himself a Earth Firster might monkey-wrench something without some official go-ahead)
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
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Fatty, YOU voted to put Palin one heartbeat away from being Commander in Chief.
And shut the fuk up about the "drugs" I take for my spine pain.
You ignorant horse's ass.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 03:28pm PT
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Karl,
What makes you think that interview is legitimately Osama Bin Laden and not a fake that someone made up? Do you have the original sources or online publication?
Just a quick google search and that source, Ummat, is thrown into question immediately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummat_(newspaper);
Ummat (Urdu: روزنامہ امت) is an Urdu-language, Islamist newspaper published From Karachi, Pakistan.
Ummat is known for interviewing Osama bin Laden shortly after the 9/11 attack. In the interview he declared: "I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle." [1]
However, the validity of the interview with Osama Bin Laden has come under question as the reporter never actually met Bin Laden, but merely sent written questions to the Taliban government (at that time in power in Afghanistan and facing an attack from the US/UN) and received written replies.[2]
Just think about it for a second. In 2001 the Taliban is scared shitless of an imminent American attack. They also know that the US believes Bin Laden is hiding out in Afghanistan and the primary goal of the attack would be to kill Osama and dismantle Al Qaeda. So to downplay the threat they create a story about Bin Laden having no connection with 911. The fact that interview was not with Osama Bin Laden matters. Not only that, but "truthers" have run with the story and lied about it, saying it was in fact Osama Bin laden being interviewed.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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I met Biden over 20 years ago and spent an hour with him and did not call him an idiot to his face.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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Fair question Port. It's worth noting that that wasn't Bin Laden's only denial of 9-11. He denied it more times than he took credit, so maybe the answer is "Who knows? THere's a whole lot of lying going on"
But, of course, Even the US calls KSM the mastermind of 9-11 and we have precious little information of what and how KSM did what he did. So basically we're in the dark about a LOT about 9-11 and the 9-11 commission report didn't even address many significant element of the operation like the all important "follow the Money" part, or the 9-11 war games that put false blips on US radar screens coinkydentally.
Some denials come from Wikileaked documents translated by the CIA
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikileaks_obtains_10_years_of_messages,_interviews_from_Osama_bin_Laden_translated_by_CIA
But there are at least 4 recorded denials of 9-11 by Bin Laden, some quoted or linked elsewhere in this thread by me
Peace
karl
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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Fatty probably advised McCain to call Obama "That one" in the debate.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 11, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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WTF?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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I had lunch last week in Washington with Biden.
He told me to tell little Jeffrey Elfont that he is an ignorant horse's ass.
Edit: quick Fatty, post up your cute little certificate of appreciation.
And AGAIN< shut the fuk up about my damn spine pain. F*#KTARD
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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Even the off topic threads are now off topic.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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Obviously a fake Fatty. Please release the long form certificate of appreciation
I hear Fatty has been hired by Al Queda to foster more Al Queda recruiting by inciting interference with Islamic nations
Fatty's gut...It's an inside job!!!
;-)
Karl
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 11, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Ha, looks like you never worked for any police departments either. You don't have to lie to kick it.
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Gene
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Fattrad,
How does a member of the LA Sheriff’s Search and Rescue Team get shot at while on duty in South Central?
g
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Post your CPA license, I have asked you to do this many times.
Again, you do NOT have the "intellect" to pass ANY State's CPA testing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 11, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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Enough with our personal conspiracy theories about each other. This thread is OT enough already.
Fatty is as real as the Easter Bunny except for being Evil
peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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There are rumors that Ghadaffi is dead. He hasn't made any public appearances in 2 weeks and he was at the compound with his son when it was bombed.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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For what it is worth I believe Fattrad is who he says he is.
"The one formerly known as The Evil One."
He knows people here at ST, has climbed with them, and he actually does nice things for people. He even posts his picture as times. Brave to do so.
C'mon guys stop the public peeing contest to see who can pee further. It's embarrassing.
This is about OBL and how he might have been recently killed or not???? We don't really know.
But what we do know is they have discovered a treasure trove of Intel and word has it they found out the Easter Bunny was about to assassinate Santa Claus and they have now been able to thwart that from happening.
All the Children around the world are now happy.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 11, 2011 - 08:02pm PT
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Isn't whether someone is a CPA an easily verifiable public record (consider the meaning of "P" in CPA)?
Probably take 30 secs to check on google, but I'm not that interested.
(My experience is with lawyers, where that states that I'm familiar with put the records online.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Yes, easily verifiable.
Unless of course you are lying about being a CPA to begin with.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 11, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
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Isn't whether someone is a CPA an easily verifiable public record (consider the meaning of "P" in CPA)?
Probably take 30 secs to check on google...
STALKER!
Nice editing out of the part where I said I wasn't that interested!
I guess I'm the world's laziest stalker, so Fatty doesn't have to worry about me, at least. Sounds like some of you are hot on his trail though, kind of like Obama after Osama without the SEAL backup.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 11, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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Say Fatty!
Maybe Hawkeye will follow you on Fairview!
wOOt!
Alice,
you seem to be the one most interested in Fatrads jock size, is there not anyone you can call for that? following him up a route might just give you the view you always wanted....
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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Search Results for Individual Licenses
This information is updated Monday through Friday - Last updated: MAY-10-2011
To see if a licensee is active, inactive or on probation, click on the highlighted name. Information also will include disciplinary actions if any are present.
No records returned
Jeffrey Elfont
President, Pinnacle Capital Management, Walnut Creek, CA. Former Board member, Northern California AIPAC. Certified Public Accountant. BA, Economics, UCLA.
Shouldn't this say, "Former Certified Public Accountant"?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
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NOW Fatty says he was not a "California" Certified Public Accountant.
NICE OUT
SO, what State were you a licensed CPA in, Jeff?
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Gene
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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Calling apogee. Thread bomb needed.
PLEASE.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 11, 2011 - 08:41pm PT
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Sorry Fattard, but the calls WERE made, and NOBODY has EVER heard of your sorry ass....
Doesn't mean you weren't a volunteer of course....
Only means you made no impression.
the only thing sorry is that you have such little life as to call about some ST posters records...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
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Fattrad, while you wait for your apology, you can answer this.
Search Results for Individual Licenses
This information is updated Monday through Friday - Last updated: MAY-10-2011
To see if a licensee is active, inactive or on probation, click on the highlighted name. Information also will include disciplinary actions if any are present.
No records returned
Jeffrey Elfont
President, Pinnacle Capital Management, Walnut Creek, CA. Former Board member, Northern California AIPAC. Certified Public Accountant. BA, Economics, UCLA.
Shouldn't this say, "Former Certified Public Accountant"?
You are either a CPA or you are not one.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
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http://www.dca.ca.gov/cba/misc_notices/not09-06.pdf
Inactive License Disclosure
If you hold an inactive CPA license, beginning January 1, 2010, you must use the word “inactive” directly after any CPA title or designation you use. This applies to using the title “certified public accountant,” the CPA designation, or any other reference that would suggest you are licensed by the CBA, on materials such as correspondence, Internet Web sites, business cards, nameplates, or name plaques.
The new requirement is the result of Assembly Bill 117, which was recently signed into law.
Edit: We posted at the same time.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
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And I'm just getting started boys.
Crowley
Fatty
Norton
Wow really
Suap
and whoever is is contributing to the bullshit rally. i'm just getting started.
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Gene
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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John,
Good post, but I have to call you out on....
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Gotta link?
g
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
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Wow really
Suap
They don't even count.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2011 - 08:59pm PT
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OhnoOHnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnohonoOhnoOHnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnohonoOhnoOHnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoo
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 09:18pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 11, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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Well, this thread went to sh#t.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
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Not the only thing that went to sh#t.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 11, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
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Fattie..
I told you once before that Norton was legitimately on pain meds.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 11, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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Well, this thread went to sh#t.
name one thread that Alice posts more than twice in that does not end up going to sh#t....
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Gene
climber
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May 11, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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Norton,
I APOLOGIZE, I WAS WRONG TO BRING THIS ISSUE UP. But...
Fattrad,
You can and have done much better. Do it now and more often. You might like it.
g
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 01:06am PT
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What happened to your AC thread Locker? Did the all powerful Supertopo gods banish it?
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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May 12, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 01:25am PT
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That's just the way it is, pussy.
AC=Coot?
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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May 12, 2011 - 01:35am PT
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This is getting close to qualifying for the" As The Taco Turns" thread.
Just a few more juicy bits, and you're in!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 01:41am PT
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What has this thread come too?
For crying out loud. (See the post of the baby if you don't believe me.) lol.
Can we get back to OBL? Is he really dead? Did his just die? Or did he die years ago and they just decided to take him out of the freezer for political Kabuki theater?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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What has this thread come too?
complete sh#t. And a personal meltdown. I count 5 pages of AC vs Fatty. And AC's account is now disabled. This thread was hijacked by wankers.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 01:45am PT
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Maybe we need a thread like the "Republicans so wrong about everything" where pissing matches can flourish free of dialog breaking out.
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 01:58am PT
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Dumping the so called dead boogie man into the ocean is very convenient.
No more evidence to come back to haunt you.
So they seem to think ......
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 02:00am PT
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^^^ I haven't but his children look surprisingly western.
Son, Omar.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 02:07am PT
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That's because the bin Laden's are true capitalists.
Its hard to say "the Bin Ladens" They seem to travel many walks of life.
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apogee
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 02:10am PT
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"Maybe we need a thread like the "Republicans so wrong about everything" where pissing matches can flourish free of dialog breaking out."
Heh.
This thread has become so stooooooopid not even Dr. F shows up for it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 12, 2011 - 02:44am PT
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Locker, when did AC get deactivated?
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:00am PT
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Greetings coot. Who might you be from Fresburg? Are you a friend of Matt?
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 12, 2011 - 03:03am PT
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Christ, go to another thread! This one has suffered enough from this bullsh#t.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:06am PT
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The reason I ask is because you're hassling Locker so much. Based on the last several weeks, clashes have occured that you appear to be aware of. You must be Matt's pal then.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:10am PT
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Lockdaddy, check your email.
Locker's posts are bloody hilarious.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:15am PT
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You are an apparent lurker of some sort. Believe me, I'm familiar with the skirmishes. Unless you're a wine drinking trash picking buddy of Matt's, you're picking the wrong dog in this fight.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 12, 2011 - 03:23am PT
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Fish was right.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:25am PT
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hahaha! Matt is a stalker. He is the self-proclaimed anti-conservative movement chief of the thought police. Anyone who states even a vague opinion that he perceives to be of a conservative bent, he blows up with incessant puerile sniping. Never offers any thoughtful dialogue on the topic at hand and definitely never discusses climbing.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:38am PT
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Whoever you are, Damon? You obviously have no clue as you're cherry picking my posts. You don't know me from Eve. Quit hiding behind your silly avatar and come clean. Otherwise, you're a dolt with no credibility here.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:40am PT
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No, more like who are you?
That's such a bummer. I never did get to see that bucket o'turds.
Like I said, you're cherry picking and my beef with Matt was validated as usual.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:44am PT
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What's with the one-sided view? Your posts say a lot.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:48am PT
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Okay scumbag. You're brave enough to cross the line on the internet. Just like your blowbuddy, Matt. Coward.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:52am PT
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Please describe this hypocrisy.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 03:58am PT
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You're a fool. You have not a clue and are looking really dumb. He must be a good friend. Really sad.
Edit: You even back edit to try and mislead, just like Matt.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 12, 2011 - 04:32am PT
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Now this thread is deader than Bin Laden and the attacks are just as personal.
It's a waste and nobody benefits
Let sh#t go. What's the point?
There's always going to be somebody we don't agree with.
Let it go. Unreasonable people discredit themselves so why respond and discredit yourself (not talking about anybody in particular cause I just don't pay enough attention to lay blame)
Peace
Karl
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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May 12, 2011 - 05:17am PT
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At what point do you guys realize that there is no winning here, and the more that you keep up and at each other, the more you lose?
Thanks. But your crusade to slay each other across multiple threads not only displays your own self centeredness but also kills legitimate conversation.
Step aside and rise above.
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Mimi
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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You're absolutely right slayton. There's no reasoning with some people and it only gets nastier. This isn't about slaying anyone or moving on, it's standing up to internet bullies who take it upon themselves to excessively chide people for their opinions.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 12, 2011 - 04:56pm PT
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coot must equal Alice.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 12, 2011 - 05:20pm PT
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I was enthused when the news first came out. Actually I was having a large dinner party when one of my guests got the message via IPhone. We broke out the champagne and gave a cheer.
The more I think it through though, the more I think it stinks. A hit squad and nothing more. He should have been tried, aka the Nuremburg trials, to create legitimacy and historical record.
Isreal didn't send a hit squad for holocaust orchestrator Eichmann when they tracked him down in Argentina, they captured him and tried him. Then they killed him.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 12, 2011 - 05:23pm PT
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rokjox,
the republicans carried out an unextraordinary rendition on Crowley....
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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If you had him in your sights what would you do?
I'd say: "Hey Bin baby, whas up dude? Tell me what really went/is going on".
I bet he would tell you everything ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 12, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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Coz wrote
Chris,
Imagine that sh#t bag in your sights, with multiple wives, who executed women in soccer stadiums for teaching children.
Ask yourself, would you take the shoot and kill the sh#t bag, or spend a lot of dough of tax- payer money, to defend him.
If you had him in your sights what would you do?
Remember 9/11 left 10,000 orphans, Osama thought we deserved that.
Or you could ask yourself, which would Osama prefer, being shot dead in a military operation, with almost zero suffering, or being captured, interrogated, imprisoned and dominated by his enemy. You know he got off the easiest possible way
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 12, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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i think Jolly Roger has been keel-hauled one too many times.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 13, 2011 - 12:14am PT
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Got this in my email today. I agree mostly with what MM says . . .
Some Final Thoughts on the Death of Osama bin Laden …a letter from Michael Moore
"The Nazis killed tens of MILLIONS. They got a trial. Why? Because we're not like them. We're Americans. We roll different." – Michael Moore in an interview last week
Thursday, May 12th, 2011
Friends,
Last week, President Obama fulfilled a campaign promise and killed Osama bin Laden. Well he didn't actually do the killing himself. It was carried out by a very brave and excellent team of Navy SEALs. Not only does Mr. Obama have the overwhelming support of the country, I think there are millions who gladly wish it could have been their finger on the gun that took out bin Laden.
When I heard the news a week ago Sunday, I immediately felt great. I felt relief. I thought of those who lost a loved one on 9/11. And I was glad we finally had a President who got something done. This is what I had to say on Twitter and elsewhere on the internet in that first hour or two:
I want to point out that Barack Obama took two years to do what Bush couldn't do in over seven. That's the difference between STUPID in charge and SMART in charge. STUPID pursues two reckless wars, lets OBL escape from Tora Bora, keeps looking for him in caves and invades the wrong country. He bankrupts us to the tune of $1.2 trillion for the Iraq War (it will eventually actually be over $3 trillion), and worse, he cost us the lives of almost 5,000 of our troops, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan – and, after all that, he STILL couldn't bring the perp to justice. In fact, in 2005, Bush closed down the CIA station that was devoted to looking for bin Laden! What does SMART do? He sends in a small elite strike force, no troops are killed, and the perpetrator is stopped for good.
I was thrilled that the Osama bin Laden era was over. There was now an end to the madness.
Being near Ground Zero that night, I decided to head over there and join with others who saw this event as a chance to have some closure. On 9/11, Bill Weems, a good and decent man I knew and worked with (we had just recently completed a shoot together in Boston), was on the plane that was flown into the Twin Towers. I dedicated 'Fahrenheit 9/11,' in part, to him.
But before leaving to go to the former World Trade Center site, I turned on the TV, and what I saw down at Ground Zero was not quiet relief and gratification that the culprit had been caught. Rather, I witnessed a frat boy-style party going on, complete with the shaking and spraying of champagne bottles over the crowd. I can completely understand people wanting to celebrate – like I said, I, too, was happy – but something didn't feel right. It's one thing to be happy that a criminal has been captured and dealt with. It's another thing to throw a kegger celebrating his death at the site where the remains of his victims are still occasionally found. Is that who we are? Is that what Jesus would do? Is that what Jefferson would do? I was reminded of the tale told to me as a kid, of God's angels singing with glee as the Red Sea came crashing back down on the Egyptians chasing the Israelites, drowning all of them. God rebuked them, saying, "The work of My hands is drowning in that sea – and you want to friggin' sing?" (or something like that).
I remember my parents telling me how, on the day it was announced that Hitler was dead, there was no rejoicing in the streets, just private relief and satisfaction. The real celebration came six days later at the announcement that the war in Europe was over. THAT'S what the people wanted to hear – not just the demise of one evil madman, but the end to all the killing.
When the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, people didn't pour into the streets to whoop it up. Yes, people were happy that it might help end the war, but there was not a public display of "Yippee! A hundred thousand Japs have been fried!" If they had done that, well, who could have blamed them after so many tens of thousands of their sons and fathers had been lost in the war (including my uncle, a paratrooper, killed by a sniper near Manila). But the sailor kissing the girl in Times Square was on August 14th, 1945, when the Japanese surrendered and the war was officially over. That's when America went crazy with joy – not over a killing, but over an announcement of peace.
We are a different people now, aren't we? Well, sorta. There was no bloodlust euphoria on the day Timothy McVeigh was executed. We were silent. The families of the Oklahoma City dead were silent, relieved. What is the difference between McVeigh and bin Laden, other than the number they slaughtered? I wonder. I think we know the answer.
Though bin Laden is dead, we are told that Orwell's Permanent War – the "War on Terror" – must continue! Not allowed to have our V-J day and run into Times Square with exhilaration! No, there could be terrorists there. So all we're left with is to cheer the death of one evil man, and that is supposed to make us feel powerful and good. There can be no celebration for the end of the Afghanistan War because the war isn't ending. The war must continue! Even though our own CIA tells us there are no more than a few dozen al Qaeda left in Afghanistan. We still have 100,000 troops there fighting a few dozen crazies? We say we're fighting the Taliban, too, but the Taliban are Afghan citizens, not an invading force, and, for better or worse, they seem to enjoy the support of many of the common people throughout Afghanistan. (If you don't believe that, ask any soldier who has served there and seen it. Every day is like 'Apocalypse Now.' Poppies, anyone?)
Meanwhile, we – me, included – get lost in the weeds of how this one madman was killed. The official story from the Pentagon changed four times in the first four days! It went from OBL firing on the troops with one hand and using his wife as a human shield with the other, to, by the fourth day, not single person in the main house, including bin Laden, being armed when killed. Instantly, this created a lot of suspicion about what really happened, which itself was a distraction.
Here's my take: I know a number of Navy SEALs. In fact (and this is something I don't like to talk about publicly, for all the obvious reasons), I hire only ex-SEALs and ex-Special Forces guys to handle my own security (I'll let you pause a moment to appreciate that irony). These SEALs are trained to follow orders. I don't know what their orders were that night in Abbottabad, but it certainly looks like a job (and this is backed up in a piece in the Atlantic) where they were told to not bring bin Laden back alive. The SEALs are pros at what they do and they instantly took out every adult male (every potential threat) within a few minutes – but they also took care to not harm a single one of the nine children who were present. Pretty amazing. This wasn't some Rambo-style operation where they just went in guns blazing, spraying bullets. They acted swiftly and with expert precision. I'm telling you, these guys are so smart and so lethal, they could take you out with a piece of dental floss. (And in fact, one of my ex-SEAL guys showed me how to do that one night. Whoa.)
In a perfect world (yes, I would like to reside there someday, or at least next door to it, in Slightly Imperfect World), I would like the evildoers to be forced to stand trial in front of that world. I know a lot of people see no need for a trial for these bad guys (just hang 'em from the nearest tree!), and think trials are for sissies. "They're guilty, off with their heads!" Well, you see, that is the exact description of the Taliban/al Qaeda/Nazi justice system. I don't like their system. I like ours. And I don't want to be like them. In fact, the reason I like a good trial is that I like to show these bastards this is how it's done in a free country that believes in civilized justice. It's good for the rest of the world to see that, too. Sets a good example.
The other thing a trial does is, it establishes a very public and permanent historic record of the crimes against humanity. This is why we put the Nazis on trial in Nuremberg. We didn't do it for them. We did it for ourselves and for our grandchildren so that they would never forget these horrors and how they were committed. And we did it for the German people so they could see the evidence of what their elected leaders had done. Very helpful. Very necessary. Very powerful.
And for those who wanted blood back then – well, the majority of the Nazis all hanged in the end. So, it doesn't mean the bad guys get away – they still swing from the highest tree.
My own spiritual beliefs do not allow for capital punishment, and I was raised in the state (Michigan) that in the 1840s was the first government in the English-speaking world to outlaw it. So, I'm just not inclined that way. I don't believe in "an eye for an eye." I know the old book said that, but I like its sequel better (a rare case in which the sequel – like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Terminator II – is better than the original). If you don't believe the way I believe (it's also the official position of the Catholic Church, for whatever that's worth these days), then that's your right, and I understand.
Perhaps there was no way to bring him back alive – I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in that dark house trying to make that snap decision. But if the execution was ordered in advance, then I say we should be told that now, and we can like it or not like it.
For nine years I wrote and I said that Osama bin Laden was not hiding in a cave. I'm not a cave expert, I was just using my common sense. He was a multimillionaire crime boss (using religion as his cover), and those guys just don't live in caves. He had people killed under the guise of religion, and not many in the media bothered to explain that every time Osama referenced Islam, he wasn't really quoting Islam. Just because Osama said he was a "Muslim" didn't make it so. Yet he was called a Muslim by everyone. If a crazy person started running around mass-killing people, and he did so while wearing a Wal-Mart blazer and praising Wal-Mart, we wouldn't automatically call him a Wal-Mart leader or say that Wal-Mart was the philosophy behind his killings, would we?
Yet, we began to fear Muslims and round them up. We profiled people from Muslim nations at airports. We didn't profile multi-millionaires (in fact, they now have their own fast-track line to easily get through security, an oddity considering every murderer on 9/11 flew in first class). We didn't run headlines that said "Multi-Millionaire Behind the Mass Murder of 3,000" (although every word in that headline is true). You can say his wealth had nothing to do with 9/11, but the truth is, there is no way he could have kept Al Qaeda in business without having the millions he had.
Some believe that this was a "war" we were in with al Qaeda – and you don't do trials during war. It's thinking like this that makes me fear that, while bin Laden may be dead, he may have "won" the bigger battle. Let's be clear: There is no "war with al Qaeda." Wars are between nations. Al Qaeda was an organization of fanatics who committed crimes. That we elevated them to nation status – they loved it! It was great for their recruiting drive.
We did exactly what bin Laden said he wanted us to do: Give up our freedoms (like the freedom to be assumed innocent until proven guilty), engage our military in Muslim countries so that we will be hated by Muslims, and wipe ourselves out financially in doing so. Done, done and done, Osama. You had our number. You somehow knew we would eagerly give up our constitutional rights and become more like the authoritarian state you dreamed of. You knew we would exhaust our military and willingly go into more debt in eight years than we had accumulated in the previous 200 years combined.
Maybe you knew us so well because you were once one of our mercenaries, funded and armed by us via our friends in Pakistan to fight the other Evil Empire in the last battle of the Cold War. Only, when the killing stopped, the trained killer, our "Frankenstein," couldn't. The monster, you, would soon turn on us.
If we really want to send bin Laden not just to his death, but also to his defeat, may I suggest that we reverse all of that right now. End the wars, bring the troops home, make the rich pay for this mess, and restore our privacy and due process rights that used to distinguish us from any other country. Right now, our democracy looks like Singapore and our economy has gone desperately Greek.
I know it will be hard to turn the clock back to before 9/11 when all we had to worry about were candidates stealing elections. A multi-billion dollar industry has grown up around "homeland security" and the terror wars. These war profiteers will not want to give up their booty so easily. They will want to keep us in fear so they can keep raking it in. We will have to stop them. But first we must stop believing them.
Hideki Tojo killed my uncle and millions of Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos and a hundred thousand other Americans. He was the head of Japan, the Emperor's henchman, the man who was the architect of Pearl Harbor. When the American soldiers went to arrest him, he tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest. The soldiers immediately worked on stopping his bleeding and rushed him to an army hospital where he was saved by our army doctors. He then had his day in court. It was a powerful exercise for the world to see. And on December 23, 1948, after he was found guilty, we hanged him. A killer of millions was forced to stand trial. A killer of 4,000 (counting the African embassies and USS Cole bombings) got double-tapped in his pajamas. Assuming it was possible to take him alive, I think his victims, the future, and the restoration of the American Way deserved better. That's all I'm saying.
Good riddance Osama.
Come back to your ways, my good ol' USA.
Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 13, 2011 - 01:24am PT
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Ed Show: Jonathan Turley 'People Selling Us Torture Should Have Been Investigated as War Criminals'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x583180
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzd3Teg9O7k
MSNBC The Ed Show w/ ED SCHULZ - May 12, 2011: McCain says torture is simply immoral and Prof. Turley says the arguments in favor of torture are shameful.
TURLEY: "Like many civil libertarians, I've said for years that the President is making a terrible, terrible mistake by effectively blocking the prosecution of torture. Both Attorney General Holder and President Obama have made it clear that they don't want people prosecuted for torture, and even Sen. McCain has said that, that he believes the President should say that no one should be prosecuted.
I'm afraid that's just not how it goes. You know, principles have consequences. They come with responsibilities. They're not always convenient. You can't say something's a crime, even a war crime, but say we don't believe people should be prosecuted because they 're people who were trying to 'help' us." |
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 13, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
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Oh Come on! It's nuts to say would couldn't capture Bin Laden cause there might be riots in other countries (Cause there sure wouldn't be here)
Fact, there ARE riots in other countries because we executed him. 80 people just died
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110513/wl_nm/us_binladen
There weren't right wing terrorist riots when we tried McVeigh and Saddam went on trial as well and we held him in US custody for awhile before his trial.
All the hand wringing excuses for abandoning trials just enable the best parts of America to go away, civil liberties and freedoms. Now it's only a minor step for the goverment to off you, or detain you, and they just need to say the "terrorist" word and no legal problems for them at all. Bush started this whole abandonment of rights but some of this started when during Vietnam president decided no declaration of war was needed. Now Obama didn't even feel like he needed to ask congress to go to Libya.
All this is playing out. Nice we got Bin Laden (even though he got a quick painless death) but we had to invade a sovereign country with nukes causing unrest there to do it. Trouble with Pakistan is not what we need. We're talking about seriously screwing seniors and eliminating jobs all over the country to reduce the deficit but we're spending huge treasure screwing around all over with the military and just getting deeper with no benefits.
Want more safety from terrorism? Better domestic security and control over who is hanging out in the states. Protect the rails, nuke sites, visas, all that stuff. More jobs in the US and medicare for seniors.
Peace
Karl
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 13, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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Navy Seals are trained to KILL
Not wound
If Osama was captured, then more riots would ensue
Obama made the only possible Good Choice
Go in and Kill Him
Its Over
Its all Over Now
Navy Seals are trained to execute missions, not prisoners.
When a President has someone killed and the body disposed of asap and will not even release photographic evidence to show who was killed it is far from delusional to suspect that something is being covered up.
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apogee
climber
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May 13, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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"...it is far from delusional to suspect that something is being covered up."
Unless the POTUS is a Republican, of course.
Jeebus, Ksolem...I never thought of you of a conspiratorial tinfoil hat type. Do you think 9/11 was a Shrub/Neocon plot, too? Such delusions spring from the same paranoia, you know.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 13, 2011 - 01:41pm PT
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I searched that article - the word riot does not appear. Since when is a suicide bombing a riot?
I was referring to
"as Pakistani anger over the U.S. raid to get the al Qaeda leader showed no sign of abating."
but was also thinking that the suicide bombing is also "Blowback" and the general rational for the fear about "riots" is really fear of blowback which certainly includes suicide bombings
Peace
Karl
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
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Am I the only person who remembers that we are at war and that this guy was the enemy? Seriously, it's war, it's not about a fair fight it's about killing the other guy who is trying to kill you. He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face.
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apogee
climber
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May 13, 2011 - 01:52pm PT
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"He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face."
Yep, that's exactly right. Now he's gone- move along. No fanfare, no 'Mission Accomplished' hubris.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
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Okay another quick question. This is not totally original, but this thread has got really screwed up so may be worth refocusing on an important issue.
I'm trying to reconcile the following statements, which appear to be standard liberal point of view on ST and elsewhere:
I. It was a good idea for Obama to assassinate Osama rather than taking him alive for trial. Capturing him would be "inconvenient" because it may upset people. And Osama was a really bad guy and deserved it.
II. George Bush should be tried for war crimes for authorizing rough interrogation techniques such as waterboarding (even those who were roughly interrogated were not actually killed, and have been given rights to legal counsel and trials under US jurisdiction).
Is it really the case that people think that assassination is OK, but rough interrogation is a war crime?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 13, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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Am I the only person who remembers that we are at war and that this guy was the enemy? Seriously, it's war, it's not about a fair fight it's about killing the other guy who is trying to kill you. He reaped the whirlwind. End of story. F*ck that guy. Right in his face.
In what situation should it ever be a fair fight?
Should torture and assassination ever be avoided or is it in our (U.S.A) best interest to always do these things?
Should we consider the strategic benefits of killing civilians if it would somehow reduce the strength of this enemy? How about school buses full of kids? Is there any point in drawing the line somewhere when it comes to war or should be not take prisoners.
We sort of lose the moral high ground if we are no different than the people with whom we are at "war". I understand them (Al Qaeda types) better now because I see the same extremism and terrorism attitudes in people in my own country. The more scarred you get, the more you become them.
Maybe we should just accept human nature and go for it and be no different from those we condemn as being evil. It's hard to tell what is best for us as individuals or as groups or as a species.
Dave
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 13, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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When a President has someone killed and the body disposed of asap and will not even release photographic evidence to show who was killed it is far from delusional to suspect that something is being covered up.
No cover up required - simply a desire to avoid the extended domestic and international political nightmare that would surely follow and international calls by other nations who also had citizens killed in 9/11 that he be tried in the Hague.
If it were 1961 it would be a different story, but in an Internet-driven 2011, no president would want to manage the world-wide circus and theater that would surely have followed a capture. Not to mention how it would all play out between now and the election next year. It was a kill op out of political expediency and so everyone could just move on.
There is really no way for a US president to declare such an assassination legal and Obama should quit trying; it simply acts to further strengthen the already dubious precedents and enhancements to executive power enacted under Bush and a SCOTUS picked just for that purpose. But politics being what they are that isn't going to happen.
Again, there's no need for conspiracies or cover-ups, just lame 'legal' rationalizations...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 13, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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Unless the POTUS is a Republican, of course.
Jeebus, Ksolem... I never thought of you of a conspiratorial tinfoil hat type. Do you think 9/11 was a Shrub/Neocon plot, too? Such delusions spring from the same paranoia, you know.
No, they don't. I just think this OBL think is weird. And I bet if GWB had pulled the same thing a lot of people on the left would have had a fit.
Everyone is way too dogmatic about politics. And if you are looking for someone to call delusional, how about JHedge...
Plus we're dealing with 2 enemies now - the foreign ones, and the domestics (repubs). Hard to argue at this point which is more hell-bent on the destruction of the US, but I know for sure which has actually been more effective. We'll defeat them too. A pity we can't use the same measures we used on Bin Laden that repubs have used on our leaders (Gabrielle Giffords, the Kennedys, MLK, Lincoln etc). Then we really would be lowering ourselves to the dregs of humanity...
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apogee
climber
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May 13, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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"And I bet if GWB had pulled the same thing a lot of people on the left would have had a fit."
No doubt about that.
"Everyone is way too dogmatic about politics. "
Double damn right. There really isn't any room for the reality of political landscape, which is dominated by those who lie somewhere between the ideologies, with slight leanings one way or the other. The loudest, most hyperbolic & persistent voices we hear in the media (and here on ST) are those at the ends of the political spectrum, desperately trying to move the middle in their direction. That mindset, on either end of the spectrum, is either psychotic in their obsession, or patient manipulators.
"And if you are looking for someone to call delusional..."
I'm not, unless the shoe fits. I just didn't expect such things from you, Ksolem.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 13, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
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Like the Birther issue, still alive with the fully duped liar crowd.
Jesus Christ - now I am being lumped in with the birthers because I think something is suspicious because on the very face of it, it is.
Good to see I'm getting under Dr F's skin a little though.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 13, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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DMT,
You just declared many countries your enemy, you ready to sign up for the Air Force again??? Many countries use torture, what we use is not even close in trauma.
The evil one
now come on evil one, AC's sparring was traumatic to you and all he did was call you out reapeatedly....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 13, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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I have never been a birther. I don't know where you got that idea. I think it's a lame issue.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 13, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Dr. F:
If we can torture Prisoners
That means our enemies can torture us
Are you OK with our prisoners getting tortured????????
Yes or No
Osama was No. 1 Wanted Man, Dead or Alive
If we had him alive, wouldn't all of Al Qaeda go on hostage taking campaigns to negotiate his release, Yes
What can they do now, only protest
Thanks Obama
Now prosecute Bush and his Administration for the despicable Unconstitutional crimes he committed
Dr. F, you and some of the other "scientists" who plague this site need to sharpen your critical thinking skills rather than regurgitate propaganda.
In your first paragraph, change "torture" to "assassinate." Same difference.
On the whole hostage taking thing if Osama were captured, that's basically BS. If hostage taking were an effective strategy, why aren't Muslim terrorists taking US hostages now to make whatever demands that Osama was making? (E.g, US stop supporting secular governments in Muslim countries, stop supporting Israel, all grow long beards, whatever.) Is the capture of Osama the only thing that Muslim terrorists would have taken hostages over? Where do you come us with that stuff?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 13, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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He's too busy searching through my posts looking for something about Obama's birth cert to think critically...
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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Should torture and assassination ever be avoided or is it in our (U.S.A) best interest to always do these things?
Sh*t. JFK was assassinated. OBL was not. He directed terror attacks while using his family as human shields, he was in the field and he was not defenseless. COULD he have been taken alive? Probably. Was that the mission? It was a possible outcome. I guess we'll have to trust the guys who performed the mission that the outcome was the right call given the conditions.
We are a moral country and we should always hold ourselves to the highest standards, however if you harm us and declare war on us we will fight back. Every time. Until the stated goal has been achieved. No more, no less.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 13, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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We are a moral country and we should always hold ourselves to the highest standards, however if you harm us and declare war on us we will fight back. Every time. Until the stated goal has been achieved. No more, no less.
one of the more reasonable posts on the thread....i agree
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 13, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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howlow,
Nice statement. But, it's a bit greay out there.
I had a legitimate chance to shoot a homeless woman with a Crossman pellet gun. Guess that would have been OK??
The evil one
fattrad, with this gun you should shoot all you want!
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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Fatty,
So you are saying a homeless lady shot you with a pellet gun? Sounds like a fun facelift fundraiser. :)
I'm not sure a follow your point, aside from the fact that you can't tell the difference between someone who is a legitimate threat to your health and someone who legitimately needs help. OBL was a legitimate threat. Homeless lady probably needed pity a lot more than she needed a flashlight to the dome.
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apogee
climber
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May 13, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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So porn addiction = terrorist?
Where does nun obsession fit into this?
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apogee
climber
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May 13, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
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howlo, I'm with you 100%, but don't waste your time figuring this out with Repubs. Remember, according to GOP credo, anything that Obama does is wrong, no matter how in line with GOP ideology, no matter whether the GOP was advocating the same action last week, no matter what.
Obama is always wrong. End of (rational) discussion.
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 03:10pm PT
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Apogee, I know, the constantly moving goalposts and the posturing is pretty amazing. I will always be amazed at the level to which party becomes more important than country. I think a lot of it comes about as "payback" for a lot of the abuse that GWB was given. I'll admit I am as guilty of that as anyone. And I'll also be the first to admit that give some time there have been choices that GWB made that I criticized him for that have turned out to be OK. I think in retrospect he was given more grief than was fairly his. That being said the knee jerk hating on Obama by the right has been stunning in its voracity and intensity. It must be scary to see most of your stances so completely co-oped by someone who you have sworn to object to. Call him a socialist as much as you want, he's right center and his achievements are piling up...
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
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It was dark, and he ducked fast, he reached into his robe, maybe he was sporting a woody, maybe it was just a walking stick, he's crafty and has been know to carry a derringer...
Who knows. I wasn't there. You weren't there.
That reminds me of a joke.
OBL and a Navy Seal walk into a bar.
OBL gets two shots on the house.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 13, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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No cover up required - simply a desire to avoid the extended domestic and international political nightmare that would surely follow and international calls by other nations who also had citizens killed in 9/11 that he be tried in the Hague.
So try him in the Hague! he's guilty right? Life in prison would be much greater punishment for him than death, which he was welcoming.
We are a moral country and we should always hold ourselves to the highest standards, however if you harm us and declare war on us we will fight back. Every time. Until the stated goal has been achieved. No more, no less.
This is patriotic fairytale talk No country declared war on us. A small private group of terrorists did and their "leader" spelled out his goals: to lead us to invade muslim countries and bankrupt us through our wasted efforts. Bin Laden left with a "Mission Accomplished" sign on his head because we reactively do just what they want us to
peace
karl
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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May 13, 2011 - 05:15pm PT
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This country was built on patriotic fairytale talk. I'm a pragmatist as much as anything, but that doesn't mean I don't have ideals. My point was that up until now all of the fighting overseas has been all too lack luster in its results, and in its goals. Here are absolute results. Personally I'm waiting for the speech that says we got what we came for, time to close up shop, to end the financial burden. Either that or state some concrete goals. This long term nation building hearts and minds thing is for the peace corps, not the marines.
As for prison, there's no prison on earth that would have erased his existence in the minds of militants fighting to impress him and carry on his work. He can not bestow blessings, serve as a lighting rod, be the aim of any extortion, or escape the bond of the hell he is in now. He didn't get what he deserved, but the world is better for where he is.
You are right that his goals were achieved. Now we just need to prove to ourselves that his goals were misjudged from the beginning. We're not so deep that we can't survive, but it is a harder road to travel.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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May 13, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
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Bin Laden is standing before God waiting to hear his punishment..... just
then God gets a tap on the shoulder.
Behind him stands 343 firemen, 72 police officers, one k9 officer, nearly 3,000 American citizens & over 5,000 soldiers.
One of them says, "Take a break God, we got this one".
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 13, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
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Fatty
Could he have Porno, maybe, maybe not? Would he have been watching Dr. Phil or Jerry Springer, Judge Judy, World Wrestling Federation, who knows but I am sure National Enquirer’ers would want to know. Romour a few years back [20] they [CIA] owned part [“Dummy” Corp.] or had a lot of $$$$$ invested in the tabloid and would not doubt it.
“Black Propaganda” in this case “GREY”
The Pentagon, the CIA and the State Department are involved in deception and disinformation “as in playing games”: distorted brand of historical revisionism. They rewrite history to suit the present purposes of our/other governments. In this case making OBL not a hero and not following the way of Islam. What better way to discredit the guy? Throw in some Playboy magazines, McDonald Hamburgers and fries, coke and champagne. Opium I can see so would not doubt that one but for the others not sure. We are still at war.
Propaganda units mandate is to counteract anti-Americanism abroad.
Some info:
Fear and Disinformation Campaign (FDI) rests with the CIA, which secretly subsidizes authors, journalists and media critics, through a web of private foundations and CIA sponsored front organizations. The CIA also influences the scope and direction of many Hollywood productions. Since 9/11, one third of Hollywood productions are war movies. "Hollywood stars and scriptwriters are rushing to bolster the new message of patriotism, conferring with the CIA and brainstorming with the military about possible real-life terrorist attacks." "The Sum of All Fears" directed by Phil Alden Robinson, which depicts the scenario of a nuclear war, received the endorsement and support of both the Pentagon and the CIA.
Disinformation is routinely "planted" by CIA operatives in the newsroom of major dailies, magazines and TV channels. Outside public relations firms are often used to create "fake stories" Carefully documented by Chaim Kupferberg in relation to the events of September 11: "A relatively few well-connected correspondents provide the scoops, that get the coverage in the relatively few mainstream news sources, where the parameters of debate are set and the "official reality" is consecrated for the bottom feeders in the news chain."
Covert disinformation initiatives under CIA auspices are also funnelled through various intelligence proxies in other countries. Since 9/11, they have resulted in the day-to-day dissemination of false information concerning alleged "terrorist attacks". In virtually all of the reported cases (Britain, France, Indonesia, India, Philippines, etc.) the « alleged terrorist groups» are said to have «links to Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda», without of course acknowledging the fact (amply documented by intelligence reports and official documents) that Al Qaeda is a creation of CIA.
Fatty: Mossad has five departments, one being “psychological warfare, propaganda, and dis-information” “Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety" Proverbs XI is their slogan you should know that. Klimmer is too stupid but looking over his previous posts could be on the payroll.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 13, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
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Could be he encrypted messages in photos Fatty. He would have used this software or similar.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 13, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 16, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
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Quiet Crowley, you're banned.
LOL!
look at it this way fattrad, at least coot is (at the present time) a kindler gentler ALICE...LOL.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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May 18, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
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Only if we waterboard the intel interpreters.
Otherwise how will we know they get it right.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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May 18, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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May 24, 2011 - 01:19am PT
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He was part of the plan dude
[/url]
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 24, 2011 - 01:27am PT
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Bin Laden was ASSASSINATED.
That is what you call it when a political leader is killed for his leadership.
Bin Laden was reported to be unarmed. So he was murdered. He COULD have been brought to trial, but was killed instead. WHY?
Roxjox, why should anyone pay any attention to your rant, when there have been answers to this question that you have asked before, but to which you have not responded? It seems like you want to hold one-way conversations with yourself.
So, I guess I'll let you do that.
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nature
climber
WTF?
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May 24, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
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bin laden was knott a political leader.
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Gene
climber
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May 24, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 25, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
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^^^^^
Hilarious!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 27, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
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So as to keep all the criminals in one place, and not create an unneeded thread...
Serbia arrested Ratko Mladic a day or two ago. Mladic committed horrifying crimes against humanity (i.e. genocide) during the wars in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the 1990s, such as the siege of Sarajevo and the murder of about 8,000 boys and men at Srebrenica. Between 200,000 and 250,000 were killed by ethnic Serb forces under his command, and many more raped or injured. Most of his victims were Bosnian Muslims and Croats. (Not to say that the Croats and Bosnians were entirely innocent, especially in Croatia's war, but they had a lot fewer weapons.)
Mladic was indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. The European Union recently and explicitly made his surrender a precondition of possible Serb membership in the EU. He is a popular figure in Serbia, and it seems likely his whereabouts have mostly been known to the government and military.
He joins Radovan Karadjic, arrested in 2008 and on trial at the Hague, and former Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic, who died while on trial a few years ago.
The disaster in the Balkans led to a more assertive approach by the UN and NATO forces in the late 1990s and onward, in terms of protecting threatened civilians.
Mladic, Milosevic, Karadjic and their henchmen were criminals on a world scale. Let's hope that some of those accomplices are also arrested and tried.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 27, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
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I don't know if it's right that the UN, NATO, etc have become more involved in policing the depredations of more voracious states and the nastier dictators. There's no doubt that they have, though.
I agree that they're rather selective, and individual member states usually look to their own self-interest as a starting point. The failure to "do something useful" about Zimbabwe, Sudan (pending) and elsewhere in Africa in particular is not heartening, although both Britain and France have intervened selectively in former colonies. But an imperfect world, maybe it's a starting point - if other dictators see that the UN and/or NATO may intervene, and that they may eventually have to answer to a international court, it may over time change behaviours.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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CC: Read up on the causes of the Indian Rebellion ("Mutiny") of 1857, and report back. While you're at it, read up on the credibility of the Daily Mail as a news source. Ask yourself why they might be saying what they are, and whether there might be a linkage.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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MH - Sure. I know. Long ago in school. This story is a blatant propaganda
piece from our perspective but for our troopers it may bring a bit of levity to an otherwise dangerous job and on another level when the Arabic press
tells the story it'll be 'jihadi's sent to hell rather than heaven by
pig bullets.
Demoralizing the enemy is a Sun Tzu maxim. Worth a try.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 10, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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HOLY SERIOUS UPDATE BATMAN. Seymour Hersh breaks the updated story that has differing elements all the way down the line. HO LI FUK! The plot thickens, too damned strange to not be true. What a freakin story. Wow.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden
Hersh short version:
Bin Laden had been under Pakistani intelligence house arrest since 2006. No weapons or guards were in the house ( I suspect he was wrong on this one), and Bin Laden was unarmed and gunned down like his wife said. The Seals didn't haul computers out of the place and it wasn't an "intelligence bonanza" like the President announced. High level Paki's participated, one outted Bin Laden (it wasn't the US dogging him like both the President and O Dark Thirty claim) received a good hunk of the 25 million, others pitched in later.
Bin Laden was a shot up mess. Parts of him were tossed out of the helo over Asscrackistan by seals, and the burial at sea was a made up lie that never occurred.
Our politicians lied? Who could have predicted that every happening. (Cue "It was Bushes fault" LOL)
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 10, 2015 - 09:20pm PT
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couchmaster: Your link didn't work for me, but he's dead.
Big fuking deal: how, & through what means he was outed.
He's dead.
What's up with the: why, how,& who?
Do you want to start another multi-thousand post conspiracy thread about this dead dirtbag?
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2015 - 09:23pm PT
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The link works and shows how the sheep can't use the internet.
Maybe just click CNN and you'll stay safe in your bullsh!t little world.
The lying govt murdered several of our boys to keep this lie going.
But all Fritz cares about is how much money he makes every year ....
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 10, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
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Werner? Sorry but your post doesn't show clearly.
All I see is:
QUACK-POT!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 10, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
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Seymour Hersh seems to be a little desperate to be grasping at straws. While the whole
affair does seem typically tawdry, as Fritz said, who really cares? The SEALS could have
beat him to death with a dead pig for all I care. And a 'proper' burial? Pffft...
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 11, 2015 - 01:11am PT
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couchmaster: Your link didn't work for me, but he's dead.
Big fuking deal: how, & through what means he was outed.
He's dead.
What's up with the: why, how,& who?
Do you want to start another multi-thousand post conspiracy thread about this dead dirtbag?
what do you mean 'who the hell cares?' I sure as f*#k do. The government lied. OK. F*#king smoking gun, as if there weren't enough of them already. There is a whole other thread going where everyone and his dog is beating up on Ron because he and his buddies don't believe our government has our best interests in mind. WELL big surprise there. They lie over and over and over and now the mainstream would have us think people are nuts for looking for their own explanations of events. That is to be expected and is totally predictable. The sad fact is (whether you want to believe a 40 story highrise can fall into a pile of dust in 9 seconds without the use of one ounce of explosives - or not), it is still quite predictable that the government will and has totally lost its credibility when they repeatedly lie and -at best- cover-up so blatantly. A government that doesn't have the trust of its citizens is or soon will be a failed government.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 11, 2015 - 06:23am PT
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It's not "our" government any longer, at least not at the federal level. Only the ritual sacrifice of voter cards into the Dibold machine keeps the sheep asleep.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 06:39am PT
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What Mike says goes for me. I care about our country. Goggling "Operation Northwoods", where our government planned to murder innocent American civilians through a variety of ways (including blowing up an airplane of innocent US civilians) with planted BS, and then blame the Cuban Communists so as to justify an invasion, gave me pause to reconsider what I thought I knew. What is the truth then? All of the joint chiefs has signed off on the plan when it hit Kennedy's desk and he said "you idiots aren't killing women and children to start a war with Cuba".
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html
If you google wikipedia for the info, remember that the info you are reading, as harsh as Wiki is, has been vetted and revised to look less harsh by some of the 28,000 full time employees the pentagon hires to make the US look good in the news. Or as the Smoking Duck says: "What the Cluck?" I have a lot less blind faith in those who lead me than I use too when I learn of such things as Northwoods and 28,000 publicists posting comments online. I'm fine with someone telling me a lie if in so doing, there is a noble cause and by lieing there is less harm caused. I'm fine with lieing to our enemies. We do it all the time with military capabilities ie, News article that a new warship will travel X at topspeed whereas it's actually 20 knots over X. When I'm lied too by folks in power for their base reasons: moneygrubbing, personal insecurities, greed and power: I'm less understanding.
Michael Moore now wants cops disarmed as they have "too much power" over life and death over us. PFFT, I'd suggest to him that he looks at the rise of big, totalitarian government in our country if he want's to experience true fear.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 06:49am PT
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Maybe it's true...and maybe it isn't.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584473/seymour-hersh-osama-bin-laden
Hersh's story is amazing to read, alleging a vast American-Pakistani conspiracy to stage the raid and even to fake high-level diplomatic incidents as a sort of cover. But his allegations are largely supported only by two sources, neither of whom has direct knowledge of what happened, both of whom are retired, and one of whom is anonymous. The story is riven with internal contradictions and inconsistencies.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 11, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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The story is riven with internal contradictions and inconsistencies. Sort of like 'we shot him dead then threw his body into the ocean'. Ha... no internal inconsistencies there. Do people actually take this stuff at face value?
But what is really interesting to me is that some homegrown and seemingly sane Americans actually seem to prefer an all knowing and all powerful government to 'take care of this kind of stuff for us', leaving the citizens free to think on other simpler problems in life. Why get all bothered about what they are doing in the dark of the night?
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couchmaster
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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^^^^ Bingo! ^^^^
And Survival, Bin Ladens wife corroborated the Hersh version of the shooting (ie, Bin Laden was unarmed and shot down) before they shut her up and came out with the other "official" versions of how it went down. I see Bergen doesn't mention that in his refutation. But hey, the Pentagon hires 29,000 people who's job it is to tell us what to think, so go with that. 29000 people can't all be wrong. Not with the kind of money we are being forced to pay them.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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May 11, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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But what is really interesting to me is that some homegrown and seemingly sane Americans actually seem to prefer an all knowing and all powerful government to 'take care of this kind of stuff for us', leaving the citizens free to think on other simpler problems in life. Why get all bothered about what they are doing in the dark of the night?
^Werd!
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:45am PT
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Seal team was murdered to keep the lie going and all these stupid brainwashed loons keep thinking the CIA boogyman bin laden (Tim Osman) was there in Pakistan.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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So all you liberal hand-wringing intel experts also probably think you're entitled to know the
names and home addresses of the SEALS who risked their lives for you, right?
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couchmaster
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:50am PT
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^^^ no ^^^
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:52am PT
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Some of us knew seals personally.
They came thru regularly for training sessions.
Internet wankers ......
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 11, 2015 - 07:58am PT
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I trained SEALs too Werner. Plus I'm the only one here who was actually in a special ops outfit besides Donini.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 08:13am PT
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That's why I said "some of us" .....
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couchmaster
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 10:32am PT
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Try and keep the Seals out of the discussion and look higher up, and behind the curtain as well. The truth, they say, can be stranger than fiction. Interesting that both the Bergen and VOX refutations are so similar and came out so soon. Bergen appears to have not read the Hersh article, so maybe "he" or whomever prepared the refutation for him, has been following Hershs lengthy compilation of info for the book and prepared a story in advance to refute the facts that he thought might be coming out? Interesting. These are the people driving us to war here and war there. To what ends? Eternal vigilance.
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/seymour-hershs-blockbuster-obama-on-the-red-line-and-on-the-rat-line/
Today's (OK, last version) version from David Stockman, Ronald Reagans budget director and a former congressman - quote:
"Read Seymour Hersh’s devastating account of Obama’s Red Lines and Rat Lines and weep for the Republic. It is no more.
For the first time in a half-century American voters actually elected the “peace candidate” in 2008 and sent Obama to the White House to end the interventionist foreign policy that had lead to disaster in Iraq, and, implicitly, to wind down the vast war machine that had been left over from the Cold War.....
...But the Warfare State was not about to let peace happen. Soon Obama learned the Washington pivot, rehired the core of Bush’s War Cabinet and became enmeshed in the “national security” plots and schemes which were in the pipeline when he arrived at 1600 Pennsylvanian Avenue— much like JFK inherited the disastrous Bay Of Pigs invasion. Like the despicable Alan Dulles, he inherited ambitious scoundrels like so-called General David Petraeus, who soon had him convinced that the non-sensical and bloody “surge” in Anbar Province had been a roaring success, and that it should be exported to the quagmire in Afghanistan. "
Yesterdays version/near miss to fascism -same same except it was a near miss, not a hit:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/10/13/suppressed-history-hidden-facts-behind-the-wall-street-nazi-plot/
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 11, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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But but but.... we get to "pick" a blue or red puppet that focuses on REAL important stuff like gay marriage, abortion, what small arms I'm allowed to keep in my closet.... isn't that enough?
What I still can't figure out is why steal half of my paycheck when then are simply printing it?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
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Plus I'm the only one here who was actually in a special ops outfit besides Donini.
That's nice and highly commendable but not particularly relevant is it? I outranked you both
plus I knew everything you ever wanted to know about the Soviet synthetic rubber production
for fighter plane tires. ;-)
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dirtbag
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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The only thing obvious is that some people sure love their conspiracies.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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May 11, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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Dirt's one of them who thinks it's true if it's official and conspiracy if it conflicts with The Big White house.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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The two above are tin foil hat users ^^^^^^
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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That's a compliment
Thanks bro
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
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You're welcome bro ....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 11, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
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I don't believe he's dead at all. I heard they didn't shoot him, but captured him and transported him through the worldwide CIA tunnel system to a secret prison below a Walmart in Texas.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
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Yes, you are one of the many bullies Jim
or maybe part of the PC squad
at least you admit it
I seldom see your liberal side
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 11, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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Yes, you are one of the many bullies Jim
or maybe part of the PC squad
at least you admit it
I seldom see your liberal side
Craig, you are so far out of touch with reality on this that I wonder if it isn't time for you to take another vacation from Supertopo.
Seriously. If you can no longer tell who your friends are, you need to step away from the keyboard for a while.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 07:30pm PT
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Jim has never said anything in support of me, nor you
so I don't know what the hell you are talking about
we just have very different opinions
me take a break?
I seem to have as many supporters as any one else here
are we keeping count as to who is a friend and who isn't
I'm sure the hell not, and will post what I want to say
What is God's name did I post that was Out of touch with reality???
I'm serious, are you serious??
Reality is my purpose in life, I live it here and now.
The best way to help poor people is to make sure you don't join their ranks. That sounds like bullshit It sounds like it because it is,
millions had NO choice in the matter if they wanted to join the ranks, they were born into it, lost their job, got sick or a billion other reasons.
So they deserve to suffer? is that what you're saying.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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May 11, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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surely your not serious. You seriously need to get off the computer and go outside. seriously.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 07:41pm PT
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Not being supported is posting snarky remarks to my every post
Why can't I post without being singled out?
Do you really need to say anything at all?
either they respond to the issue, or they don't and instead need to express some kind of BS jab to the ribs.
Can I respond back? no, it just makes them more of an a-hole
There are many here that respond the same way, I call them bullies.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 11, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
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Jim has never said anything in support of me, nor you
Step back from the keyboard, man. Both Jim B and I are broadly in agreement with your political position, and yet because we don't bow down and worshipfully agree with every word you post, you assume we're your enemies.
The world is not made up of only worshipers and enemies. And dumping the hate bucket on everybody who doesn't cup your balls every time you post is a path to serious unhappiness.
Take a break. Go climbing. Work with your cactus garden. Or whatever you do in life when you're not angrily pounding your keyboard.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
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wow
the PC police don't like me posting
what a revelation.
Maybe you should stop pounding the key board, what has been your contribution as far as substance?
It's not me that's angry, not by a long shot.
Get used to the stuff you dish out, take a look back .... I see a long trail of insults
Isn't this about bin laden?
does it matter how he died?
why didn't Bush take him as a prisoner when he was offered to us by Afghanistan in 2001?
Was he paid by the CIA all this time?
Reagan paid him back in the eighties, how do we know that they ever cut off the money?
Bush was in business with the bin Laden's, the only planes that Bush allowed to fly after 911 were the bin Laden's escaping America, it's a crazy web of lies, that's for sure
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
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Thanks Jim
I will note that in my journal.
Now again, what was I wrong about??
isn't it more disingenuous to accuse someone as being wrong, and when asked what the specific was, just ignoring the request.
I guess you really mean that there was nothing that I said that was wrong, but just said it anyway.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
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So, JB, what do you suppose trying to reason with the Chairman of the ST Robespierre
Chowder and Marching Society says about you, eh?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 11, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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OK Jim
Thanks
now let's move on past this unfortunate event.
we shall never speak of it again
and of course I'm not always correct, but I do ask you point out what I may be wrong about, as a common courtesy.
and this is for Ghost too, right Bro?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 09:19pm PT
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C'mon, you can do better that!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
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Is that where he became The Cactus Whisperer?
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couchmaster
climber
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May 12, 2015 - 03:43pm PT
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NBC was working on the story as well and concur with Hersh on the big parts of the revision. Quote:"The NBC News sources who confirm that a Pakistani intelligence official became a “walk in” asset include the special operations officer and a CIA officer who had served in Pakistan. These two sources and a third source, a very senior former U.S. intelligence official, also say that elements of the ISI were aware of bin Laden’s presence in Abbottabad. The former official was emphatic about the ISI’s awareness, saying twice, “They knew.” Whereas the Presidents crew is saying 'we are aghast at the inaccuracy's Hersh is pitching" or some such. They don't specify which inaccuracy's. So there may be some. Given that Hersh is an Obama supporter, and a careful detail oriented journalist of high esteem, at least we know the story isn't another personality based agenda against the President.
So what is going on then? Did the story get released to Hersh to embarrass Pakistan? Create discourse between Paki Intelligence and tribal Pakis?
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crankster
Trad climber
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May 12, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
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Believe the Navy Seal, not Seymour.
"Rob O'Neill, the former Navy SEAL who says he killed Osama bin Laden, did an interview Monday in which he slammed a controversial new investigative report on the incident.
O'Neill said the report, by veteran journalist Seymour Hersh, was "full of lies."
"When I was first sent this article, I thought it was a joke," he said on Fox News. "This thing is so ludicrous it's almost an insult to the word 'ludicrous.'"
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-oneill-blasts-seymour-hersh-report-on-bin-laden-2015-5#ixzz3Zy4u23Hs
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 12, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
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Lies within lies wrapped in layers of more lies retold as lies and sold as fact. The tell is how emphatically the lies are presented.
We'll never know for sure but my bet was always on Bin Laden, whoever's asset he really was or even what he might have been responsible for, dying in Tora Bora in December of 2001 long ago. I remember the change on that Sith Lord Rumsfeld's face the day it happened.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 14, 2015 - 12:09am PT
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Almost too funny for real:
O'Neill said the report, by veteran journalist Seymour Hersh, was "full of lies."
"When I was first sent this article, I thought it was a joke," he said on Fox News.
From Democracy Now!:
More sources are confirming a key claim in an explosive story challenging the Obama administration’s account of the killing of Osama bin Laden. Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reported this weekend a former Pakistani intelligence officer disclosed bin Laden’s location to the CIA. Hersh said U.S. claims it found bin Laden by tracking his personal courier were false. NBC News confirmed Hersh’s claim of the informant through three different intelligence sources. Now the Pakistani newspaper The News reports Pakistani officials are also acknowledging the story and have identified the officer as Usman Khalid. Hersh’s story says the officer received a $25 million bounty and is now living under U.S. protection near Washington. Carlotta Gall, a New York Times reporter who spent years in Afghanistan and Pakistan, is also now claiming she heard from a high-level Pakistani source that Pakistan was hiding bin Laden and later that an officer had told the CIA. Gall says she didn’t publish the story because she couldn’t corroborate it in the United States. Meanwhile, national security blogger R.J. Hillhouse is pointing out she reported some of Hersh’s key claims four years ago. In August 2011, Hillhouse wrote on her blog that the informant who led the CIA to bin Laden was a walk-in seeking financial compensation and that Pakistani officials were keeping bin Laden under house arrest with Saudi financial support.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 14, 2015 - 05:38am PT
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I see this has turned into a name calling exercise. Quelle surprise!
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couchmaster
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 06:38am PT
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In this Hersh story, I suspect that there may be elements of truth, but perhaps Hersh missed called a few points. The government seems to have folks giving a very similar refutation of "I couldn't believe the inaccuracy's in the Hersh story" with most of them not noting specific "inaccuracies", suggesting that there are both inaccuracies and truths in Seymore Hersh's version. This clearly is a government drone handout that they gave to a select few individuals and said: "HERE, GET THIS OUT THERE" The lazy "journalists" that are doing the bidding don't even change most of the words.
There may be another hidden agenda as well, such as someone in the agency releasing this info so as to sow discord between the Pakistani Intelligence and Al Queffer or some other group of nasties. Once they get to killing each other off the chuckling behind closed doors may or may not come out later. Probably not. Ever.
One version of what's happening:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/207001/its-conspiracy-how-discredit-seymour-hersh
An interesting view not discussed, that is, it being a war crime: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-05-13/bin-laden-war-crimes-and-gray-areas
Queffer "definition"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/products.php?defid=2619502
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Degaine
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 06:52am PT
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WBraun wrote:
Everyone knew the real truth to this bullsh!t Bin Laden being killed back then except the stupid sheep
like the cranksheeps that believe everything their fed by CNN (CIA NEWS NETWORK) ....
WBraun wrote:
Maybe just click CNN and you'll stay safe in your bullsh!t little world.
WBraun wrote:
CNN will broadcast this Bin Laden news during this summers Jade Helm update
You seem pretty obsessed with CNN and horribly misinformed, or at the least you've been living in a ditch for a while.
No one watches that shitty news network, no one. I'm mean seriously, have you actually looked up their ratings lately? That network has no influence whatsoever. ER did more in 15 years to educate people about medicine than CNN has done to actually inform people.
I am surprised that you don't mention Fox, far more influence, and they fling an even bigger pile of bullsh#t. But my CIA sources indicate that their is a current unspoken cease-fire with regard to certain species of duck, and that Fox is the reason for the cease-fire. Coincidence?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 14, 2015 - 09:22am PT
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Dingus post was 1666. Creepy......
or at the least you've been living in a ditch for a while.
lol.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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May 30, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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I would never ever open this on purpose but some freak glitch brought me here and so
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 12, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
Lies within lies wrapped in layers of more lies retold as lies and sold as fact. The tell is how emphatically the lies are presented.
We'll never know for sure but my bet was always on Bin Laden, whoever's asset he really was or even what he might have been responsible for, dying in Tora Bora in December of 2001 long ago. I remember the change on that Sith Lord Rumsfeld's face the day it happened.
no way did they, Our boys, get the american stooge," Get?" WTF does that mean?
If we get some one we (the public joe) gets to see the poor bastard , like we all saw Sadam the american .....
shoot i miss ron and i still hate this wank subject matter
Porn is much better and just as nauseating, after awhile
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 30, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
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The only released photo of Bin Ladens burial.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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May 30, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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May 14, 2015 - 08:11am PT
I never bought the official story, either.
DMT
Wait.
Bin Laden's not dead?
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