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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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the amendment process is clearly spelt out in the constitution
It doesn't take a constitutional change in order for the bare majority (particularly at the State level) to force their will upon the bare minority. Just look at how all-over-the-place gun laws are State-by-State.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:18pm PT
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When would it NOT be a crime to shoot someone in the government?
Power Bottom are you serial??
Sounds like it. Go get it Craig
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 15, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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Somebody better tell Russ his 12 year-old has been posting under his name here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2017 - 05:45pm PT
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You have a point Crankster.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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Killing somebody in self-defense is not murder, is nowhere in this nation illegal, and is presumed to be moral by the second amendment.
Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 15, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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Somebody better tell Russ his 12 year-old has been posting under his name here
It's actually, right in Crankl00ns wheelhouse of stupidity
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2017 - 09:36pm PT
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Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you really are clueless about what you are arguing.
The second amendment does mention the RIGHT (to bear arms), and a RIGHT is a function of morality.
Your favorite moral theory might be some form of relativism. It might be some form of deontology. It might be moral-skepticism. There are many alternatives. But if you are going to talk about RIGHTS, then you ARE going to ground that notion in some moral theory, even if you are doing nothing more than conflating morality and legality.
Most of our founders were deontologists, and their notion of RIGHTS was grounded in a natural-rights moral theory (such as advocated by Locke) or a pure deontology, such as advocated by Kant. They well understood the negative/positive rights/duties distinction as elucidated by Kant. And their notion of "rights" was firmly grounded in such a moral theory.
So, yeah, the second amendment EXPLICITLY mentions morality.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
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They guns are already here, more than enough of them to wreak whatever disaster you can imagine. You're not going to get rid of them. It didn't work for drugs, it won't work for guns. Best get a different strategy.
2nd amendment? Yeah, the courts basically decided that as an INDIVIDUAL right. Look it up. There are, however, reasonable restrictions that can be placed on that right. Which is pretty much borne out by other court decisions, or a lack of them.
Disenfranchised gun nuts? There's a lot of them. Idiots with guns? Lot of them too. Suicides? Yeah. Guns make that process easier. Maybe y'all just really need to start working on more of the overall social problems that led up to so many of the events taking place. Like quit acting like anyone who doesn't share you're point of view is just some stupid alt-right troll intent on nothing more than eliciting a response from you.
I know I know, nobody will even take the time to respond, it's not worth it for a back - deleting troll like me right? Sh#t, you couldn't even take the time to answer my basic question of whether you think some fantastic new restriction on firearms would be more or less effective than the (oft lamented as failed) war on drugs?
It's ok. They more you ignore me, the more I think that I must truly be detested in this regard. Plus as a bonus, I get to imagine whatever point I made was valid enough to preclude your immediate and boisterous dismissal. And so it goes.
Keep right on being blind and dismissive of those opposing political views. Bury your head in the sand and pretend you can't possibly fathom why people on the edge suddenly find justification for despicable acts. It won't be a lie, just another opportunity to decry the tool. Y'all are busy running your mouths barking up the wrong tree. But it still won't solve f*#king thing.
Change will come in time; but maybe not in your time, or as you envision it. Such a lack of ability to dynamically assess, it lost you the election.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
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You're either being intentionally obtuse, or you really are clueless about what you are arguing.
The second amendment does mention the RIGHT (to bear arms), and a RIGHT is a function of morality.
Your favorite moral theory might be some form of relativism. It might be some form of deontology. It might be moral-skepticism. There are many alternatives. But if you are going to talk about RIGHTS, then you ARE going to ground that notion in some moral theory, even if you are doing nothing more than conflating morality and legality.
Most of our founders were deontologists, and their notion of RIGHTS was grounded in a natural-rights moral theory (such as advocated by Locke) or a pure deontology, such as advocated by Kant. They well understood the negative/positive rights/duties distinction as elucidated by Kant. And their notion of "rights" was firmly grounded in such a moral theory.
So, yeah, the second amendment EXPLICITLY mentions morality.
You're opinion, only.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jun 15, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
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eh, f*#k it. wall o text deleted.
peace out, and good luck.
#watchingtheworldburninhidef
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:06am PT
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Except that nowhere in the 2nd amendment is morality mentioned.
Except for the fact that it's part of The Bill of Rights.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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The right of self ownership is natural. It has been routinely infringed upon by governments and people, but that does not make it less of a right.
With self ownership comes a host of other rights. Again, if they are taken from us, they are still rights.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:30am PT
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2 rights don't make a wrong...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:38am PT
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A right unenforced is no right at all.
I can half agree with you. But the fact that something exists even though you or I don't have it is not simply an academic point. This is why we fight for our rights. "Enforce" them as you say. Because they are real, having them or not doesn't change that.
A religious person would call such rights God given, beyond the reach of government. As a secularist I'll call them natural rights.
I get the practicality of what you say. What you don't have may as well not exist for you. But the reality of certain rights has motivated people to strive to attain them for centuries.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Nicely stated Ksolem....I agree. A problem might arise in what people consider to be natural rights...bound to get differing opinions on that.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 11:55am PT
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These kinds of discussions tend to elevate rights beyond what they really are: human constructs. They aren't laws of nature, God, or anything except what a group of people found useful to recognize at one time or another.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 16, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
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I would argue that self ownership is our fundamental right. All too frequently violated though. But I don't see it as a human construct.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 16, 2017 - 02:11pm PT
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Power to the people
Right on
But, lease to own!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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Seems to me America is the only country that ever started with perfection but opted for progress. I say this momentarily ignoring the stain of slavery. The problem with progress is the degree to which it demands population increase. And population determines in large part the amount of freedom we can enjoy. Freedom is a function of population. We are no longer an agrarian society with substantial distances between our homes, instead we are crowded into communities where regulation and law are the only ways to insure an equality of freedom and that means some freedoms are restricted.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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How about the stain of Native American genocide to go with slavery? Perfection is an idea, not reality.
I love this country, but we need to take the blinders off if we ever hope to evolve.
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